TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: [I think I should just take off work today].

THERAPIST: What was that?

CLIENT: [You heard me].

THERAPIST: I know. (long pause) Hi.

CLIENT: Hi. Nice to be here.

THERAPIST: Nice to see you. (pause)

[00:01:05]

CLIENT: I'm nervous coming here, more than I used to be.

THERAPIST: Hmmm.

CLIENT: (pause) I also notice the 4:30 p.m. shadow today more than I normally do.

THERAPIST: Oh. Not since the other day shadow.

CLIENT: Since the other day. (pause) Do you shave every other day?

THERAPIST: Every two or three [if I have to].

CLIENT: Wow. You shaved on Monday. I could tell. (pause)

[00:01:58]

This is the third session that we've started (pause) in which we first talk about your look. (pause)

THERAPIST: Hmmm.

CLIENT: I'm just noticing. (pause) So I don't know why, but I feel nervous before coming here. (pause)

THERAPIST: That's been [a general feeling]? (pause)

[00:03:03]

CLIENT: Like Monday, Wednesday, Thursday. (pause) Maybe since I asked you for the hug.

THERAPIST: Hmmm.

CLIENT: (long pause) I'm also picking up on some guilt from you for — I don't know. (pause) Like that you feel badly that I'm so — that I'm frustrated and in pain but — (pause) I don't know. (long pause)

[00:04:18]

THERAPIST: Do you feel badly that you're frustrated and in pain? I guess that's a little different from, sort of but not necessarily, guilty.

CLIENT: I think it's different.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: (pause) Maybe what I'm picking up on is not the presence of guilt but the absence of (pause) like you're not conveying (pause) a sense of like confidence or — (long pause)

[00:05:23]

Maybe it's just that you're not reassuring me.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And that you are confident. (long pause)

THERAPIST: [Like yesterday in particular and Monday as well (pause) I was being reassuring? I don't remember saying anything especially reassuring yesterday. I hope I did, but I don't know]. (long pause)

[00:06:40]

CLIENT: I think what I'm looking for is this is how it works. I'm looking for like a guide, and you're not giving that to me. And instead you're giving me "I'm sorry that you're feeling badly" (pause) like over and over and over again.

THERAPIST: Ummm —

CLIENT: And encouragement. Like "I admire how you're going through it. I think you're doing a good job." (pause) I think I'm frustrated that you're not taking control. That you're not —

[00:07:40]

THERAPIST: [inaudible]

CLIENT: [inaudible]

THERAPIST: No, I'm not. (pause) But I think asking for the hug and [inaudible at 00:08:10] and for talking the way you did yesterday about sex and (pause) some of the things you said to me about that (pause) and your wishing — the way those things I think are making you anxious, I think relates to your wanting me to sort of take control of you.

[00:08:56]

CLIENT: Mmmm-hmmm.

THERAPIST: And are probably partly some of what you're working out at the moment, to do with like (pause) arranging things the way you want them to be and saying things that (pause) sort of put you out there, but to also take charge in a way.

CLIENT: You mean by working out?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I'm doing those things?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [When you're anxious it's probably an important thing to do].

CLIENT: Like it reveals — it reflects —

THERAPIST: Something you have trouble doing.

[00:10:00]

CLIENT: I see. (pause) I have trouble taking control?

THERAPIST: (pause) In some ways no, I think, and in some ways, yeah. I think when it comes to sex, yes. I mean, I don't know the details of your sex life as far as that goes but — (pause)

[00:11:01]

Maybe with sex and certainly with some kinds of bad feelings, you are reticent (pause) and a little too worried about what whoever is around is going to think and sometimes, I think, guided by that.

CLIENT: Hmmm.

THERAPIST: I know in other ways, you can very comfortably take charge or [be assertive]. I know that's true. But I think there are some things where you're a little shyer, like more about bad feelings. I'm a little less sure about sexuality. I know you sort of expressed like some worry or hesitation talking to me about some of that here, but it's sort of difficult for me to tell.

[00:12:05]

CLIENT: I agree.

THERAPIST: You said you feel inexperienced. Maybe that's more kind of —

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: — [accurate.]

CLIENT: And I don't talk about it that much here. (pause) I think I get defensive or I feel like you don't deserve to hear about it. (pause) But then if I remember that you're here to help me, that goes away.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm. (pause)

[00:13:09]

CLIENT: [inaudible]

THERAPIST: What? You look sort of like —

CLIENT: Gasping for air.

THERAPIST: Oh, you looked surprised. I didn't realize you were. Huh.

CLIENT: (pause) Huh. (pause) What?

THERAPIST: I know I will say things like that when I'm struck by something but I don't know what else to say, and that it can be annoying because it probably seems as though there's more on my mind than what I'm saying. (pause)

[00:14:03]

CLIENT: I had another dream about a conference where (pause) there was like this giant hot tub and Kelly was there. There was a lot of water. Yeah, like that water slide dream with my mom and Kelly.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: There wasn't in that dream, but it was the same night. And the dream about [inaudible at 00:14:38].

THERAPIST: Yeah, I remember.

CLIENT: This was a giant hot tub and (pause) it was all female and there were men somewhere, but they were far away. The hot tub was outside and (pause) we were —

[00:15:03]

Like Kelly was already there and so were Joanne and Ida. (pause) I walked out looking stunningly fit in my orange bikini again.

THERAPIST: [You have an orange bikini apparently].

CLIENT: Uh huh. And I walked out like before getting in, I was like "Are we wearing shirts here?" and people were like "Yeah, let's wear shirts." So I went back and got everybody's shirts. And then I went inside — into the hot tub. (pause)

[00:15:57]

I don't think I was self-conscious or nervous. I think I remembered people talking about how we would wear shirts in the hot tub, but then everybody had already gone out and no one was wearing their shirt. So before I got in, I was like "I thought — what happened to the shirts?" and people were like "Yeah, we should wear a shirt. Can you grab mine while you get yours?" (pause) What do you think about that?

THERAPIST: (pause) I don't know. What are your associations?

CLIENT: Well, I wonder why it was more arousing in the dream the night before when Betty [ph] came onto me and not Kurt. Or at least I remember it more. (pause)

[00:17:03]

I wonder why it was all women in the hot tub. (pause) I guess the camp-like feeling of the Portland trip sort of solidified the familial nature of my relationship with some people in lab and with my lab itself.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm. (pause)

[00:18:09]

CLIENT: This is boring. I feel like I'm not talking about the things that you think are important.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And I don't know what I think is important. (pause) I think I want to shake you. (long pause)

THERAPIST: Maybe you don't want to be talking at all.

[00:18:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) I don't want [to go in circles]. (long pause) I'm good at talking [so I can do it] but I don't think that's — (pause) [inaudible at 00:19:36].

THERAPIST: But there are a number of things that seem to me to point towards you wanting to talk (pause) about our having sex in some way, that you're also kind of anxious or feeling a bit inhibited about the things that make me think that are what you said, what you joked when you came in. You're sort of referring to sort of feeling anxious today —

[00:20:17]

CLIENT: Mmmm-hmmm.

THERAPIST: — as well as [inaudible at 00:20:18]. You know, the sort of wish to shake me like "Would you fucking get to it already." That's sort of like [inaudible at 00:20:36]. (pause) You know, in the dream, the question about modesty, that's what the shirts were about. At least that's my association with them. (long pause)

[00:21:27]

CLIENT: I guess I haven't really gotten that much out of or haven't been satisfied with (pause) like how it's gone when I've talked to you about wanting to have sex with you before. (pause) I'm a little hesitant to talk about it again.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm. [Has it been disappointing?]

CLIENT: (pause) Well, you haven't indicated that you feel the same way or you haven't (pause) pushed me about it. And I think I might need some pushing. (pause) Maybe "push" is too violent.

[00:22:49]

THERAPIST: Maybe not.

CLIENT: (pause) Okay. Maybe not. (pause) So sometimes where it doesn't really feel this way about other topics, sometimes it feels like I'm just talking to a wall. Maybe because there's so much hope for how you might respond that anything less than that seems underwhelming or disappointing.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm. And does it feel like I'm not responsive in any way or like you're not getting through to me?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. I feel like we're talking in the abstract. I don't actually remember. (pause)

[00:23:52]

Like the Casablanca fantasy. (pause) Like I told you about it and that was it. (pause) And there's a lot of sex in that fantasy. (pause) But I attribute my not telling you more about it — like, okay, to my not having anything else to say about it, or not really knowing what to pay attention to or not wanting to pay attention to it, and you didn't pick it up.

THERAPIST: I didn't pick it up. I didn't ask. (long pause)

[00:25:12]

CLIENT: Kind of like when I think about you while having sex with Jeremy, you rarely pick that up either. I guess I'm using "picking up" in the way that you would pick up a stitch or something in knitting. To like keep it going, not pick up on it.

THERAPIST: Right. Right. I don't think you have the impression that I haven't heard you. It's more like I haven't kept it going.

CLIENT: (pause) Not that you keep really keep that much going. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (laughter) Let's just be clear about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. But there's a way in which —

THERAPIST: "You asshole." (laughter)

CLIENT: (laughter) Do you disagree?

THERAPIST: No.

[00:26:09]

CLIENT: It must be a hard job.

THERAPIST: Sometimes. [I'd say I'm extremely lucky].

CLIENT: (pause) I'm not sure why you said that.

THERAPIST: I'm occasionally reassuring, I hope.

CLIENT: You are.

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: But I'm not sure why you felt you had to say that.

THERAPIST: Maybe I wanted to say it.

CLIENT: Great.

THERAPIST: Are you also — maybe you're also imagining, I guess if I think about it, that I feel guilty.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I was checking in about that. (pause) Or maybe you just feel lucky, and I guess I was wondering if you feel lucky here now.

[00:27:13]

THERAPIST: Of course. [inaudible at 00:27:14].

CLIENT: So those are some things that I've —

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: — tried to bring up that haven't been very satisfying for me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Other than just saying them out loud, which is helpful.

THERAPIST: Right, and I just kind of dropped the ball.

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe you need to because you want me to talk about it again now.

THERAPIST: Oh. (long pause)

[00:28:37]

CLIENT: Duh. Talk more. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Okay, sorry. You know, what I'm thinking about is (pause) like I'm trying to figure out if I'm different about those things which I'm not aware of being, or [should I even say it] if you're different about those things, which [can be] true.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I am different about them. I think you're right that I'm shyer and also I don't know how much (pause) you earned hearing about them. Sometimes I feel that way, sometimes I don't.

[00:29:37]

THERAPIST: What sort of currency —

CLIENT: What would you have to do?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, I would accept a number of types of currency.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) (chuckles) (pause)

THERAPIST: Yes?

CLIENT: You could have sex with me.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

CLIENT: You could tell me about things that you like. Sex things that you like.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

CLIENT: You could tell me about — (pause) You could talk to me about sex in an abstract way. (pause)

[00:30:41]

THERAPIST: You mean about my own like sexual interests or fantasies in an abstract way?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: You could ask me questions about my own sex interests and fantasies.

THERAPIST: Maybe without my asking you questions — go ahead. I'll let you finish.

CLIENT: I — uh —

THERAPIST: Those are the currencies?

CLIENT: I'm not giving you too many within-boundary currencies —

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: (chuckles) — so I'll try to make it more — like more that would actually change the feeling that you haven't earned it.

[00:31:26]

THERAPIST: Right. It sounds as though the gist is I could be more open with you about me or express more desire for you. And I imagine even asking you questions would (pause) make it feel more like I'm interested.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And without that, it feels like I'm not as much.

CLIENT: (pause) I think without that, I don't really know what to do with it. (pause) Like there are things that are really fun to just talk to you about and just tell you about.

THERAPIST: Mmmm-hmmm.

[00:32:32]

CLIENT: Like thinking about you while having sex with Jeremy is not one of them.

THERAPIST: Why not?

CLIENT: Because —

THERAPIST: I mean, I can't imagine it wouldn't be. I just want to know what you have in mind.

CLIENT: (pause) Because it's really fucking painful and it feels like I'm violating Jeremy's trust. And it feels like I'm letting you like (pause) penetrate every inch of every minute, even one that feels sacred between me and another person. (pause)

[00:33:36]

And like you won't even have sex with me. So it's like one thing if I have two sexual partners and I want one more than the other, and I can't help but think of the other one. But (pause) it's like salt in the wound. (pause) It's also incredibly pleasurable. It's exciting and it feels dangerous and it feels like my channel to connecting to you in a way that I can't otherwise. (long pause)

[00:35:02]

THERAPIST: I'm (pause) so cruel.

CLIENT: You're so cruel?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: No, you're not.

THERAPIST: Well, the person I'm feeling like to you that you're describing, I think is.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's what I meant [inaudible at 00:35:48].

CLIENT: Yeah. It feels really like cruelty. (pause) So then I get into how can I make it better, how can I fix it mode. And it's like well, why are you letting him take up so much of your energy? Block it out. (pause)

[00:36:12]

You wonder why it seems like I've blocked certain painful feelings out. I think that's a strong instinct of mine to be like okay, if I can't make the other person change, I will change and not by really feeling the feelings but by forcefully removing them. (pause) I'm getting better at — like the new medication for example, not forcefully removing. (long pause)

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: [inaudible at 00:36:59] (long pause)

[00:37:32]

THERAPIST: Well, I am glad you told me in that way what it's like [because that's important]. (long pause) I guess essentially your response to like, you know, my cruelty or the things I'm doing that sort of taken together feel so cruel is to like withhold how you feel (pause) about [my having to earn the right to hear about them].

[00:38:43]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause) And then I think also to get mad at me kind of about that too, like [inaudible at 00:39:00] in response.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, it's like you don't belong there. You can have your own sex bubble with me, but you don't belong in that one. (pause) So like why is it going to be useful for me to talk to you about that sex bubble which you're invading? (pause)

[00:39:47]

Maybe it would be useful, but so far I haven't been [interested in it], unless maybe you make an effort to create your own. (pause)

THERAPIST: Although, which makes it — (pause) I'm not trying to say this to be critical in any way, but there is one example you use of things [that I get frustrated and that]I don't follow up on. (pause) In other words —

CLIENT: Well, your following up on it would be your effort to like carve a little space in my life for us to be about sex —

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: — in some way.

THERAPIST: I see. (pause) We should stop for today. (long pause)

[00:41:31]

CLIENT: Tomorrow is Friday.

THERAPIST: [inaudible at 00:41:34]

CLIENT: Are you glad? (pause)

THERAPIST: In some way, yes. Are you?

CLIENT: Thanks.

END TRANSCRIPT