TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

(PAUSE) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: Hi. How are you?

THERAPIST: Good. Come on in.

CLIENT: Okay. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

CLIENT: Sorry for all the e-mails and stuff.

THERAPIST: That’s okay. I’m just... I glad you were able to come in.

CLIENT: Yeah.(LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: It was probably a best.

CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) So, yeah. No, I mean, things are a little weird because I had, we had our first mediation on Monday. So I, you know... It was weird because... (PAUSE) He... We had talked about like just using the mediator, like let’s avoid having like lawyers [00:03:01] And so (PAUSE) when I got there, we had our full financials in front of each other and he had a lawyer. Like it showed that he had a lawyer and I didn’t know that. So I was like, “Oh, you have a lawyer?” And he was like, “Yeah.” I’m like, “Okay.” And so... And he was like completely much more prepared than I was because he had like... You could tell he had like talked to his lawyer and like knew what to say and like how to propose things to me. And I was just very anxious the whole time, like getting there because I didn’t know how it was going to be. I mean, she was very helpful. You know, she started off just like... You know, she was like, “I’m not here to give advice. I’m here to help you through the process like, you know, to understand the proceedings and things and make this amicable or whatever.” So it wasn’t like he and I were like... We didn’t like yell or get mad at each other. And we agreed on most things. (PAUSE) [00:03:59]

And like, you know, the custody, you know, the way we’re doing it is fine, you know, alternating holidays. Although, you know, he was really insistent on having Christmas. And, you know, I really wanted to keep Christmas because we’ve had Christmas... My son’s thinking he’s staying (inaudible) Christmas. But he just wouldn’t really give up on that. So we kind of tabled that for a little bit. But like other things like... So we talked about like support for Brady (ph), like child support and, you know... She, the mediator was kind of like, “You know, what are you thinking?” And I just was like, “I don’t have enough money right now to like sustain both of us, you know, like in an apartment that’s just rent and all that.” And so he was kind of like, “Well, I’ll offer to pay for his school.” Which is... So it’s hard because it’s like I was really, I was very stressed and anxious about money and so when he said that, it was really big relief. So I was like, “That’ll be great.” Like I kind of just like was like, “Yes. That would be great.” And so he he’s like, “I’ll pay your share of his daycare and then I’ll pay all school tuition up until college and then at college we’ll split it.” And so I was like, “Okay.” Like I think I was just relieved that I was getting something that I said, “Okay.” And then... (PAUSE) [00:05:21]

And then later, when I left... It was like after I left when I was like, “What the hell did I just...” I mean, I didn’t sign anything. But I just was kind of like, “What did I just agree to?” Because, you know, we pay for daycare now which is the most expensive thing. But when he goes to Kindergarten next year, it’s like free. So... And then I... I didn’t know if I was really getting anything out of it. You know? Because I’m also splitting everything else equally. Like we... He would pay for school tuition and then all other Brady expenses are split equally. And I was kind of like, “I don’t think I’ll have enough money to like send him to camp.” You know what I mean? [00:06:03]

So... (PAUSE) That was after I left. So I was like, “That doesn’t make sense.” And then...

THERAPIST: And what about alimony?

CLIENT: So we talked about alimony and he was... Well, before we got to alimony... We agreed on other things like we would split health insurance. Retirement... I had more retirement than he does. But he was like, “Just forget about it. It’s like a wash. It’s not that big of a...” Because I think I had like $20,000 more than he does in his account. So he was just like, “Forget it.” So before we got to alimony, we got to debt. So, you know, I was... I noted the amount of debt we had. And he was like, “Well, I gave you $2,000.” And the debt is like $15,000 in... (PAUSE) You know, I just was like, “That’s not... That’s not enough. That’s, you know...” So he was like, “Well, I’ve thought about it so what I’ll do is pay for half of anything up until you left.” [00:07:11]

So since then I have charged like $3,500 because I had to buy furniture and movers and... And I was like, “You won’t consider splitting that?” And he said, “Well, no because, you know, you left.” And so the mediator was like, “Well, let’s consider the furnishings in your condo. Is there a value to that that Penelope (ph) should have because (PAUSE) you know, he has...” He kept everything most basically, 95% of everything or 90%. (PAUSE) And he’s like, “Well, what do you mean?” And I said, “Well, you have the Pottery Barn table, the (inaudible) furniture, the, all the electronics, the Mac computer. You kept...” And he’s like, “Well, you have the diamond ring. So it’s kind of equal.” And I just like... (SIGH) It’s hard because I’m like... [0:08:03]

I’m not like a fighter. I’m not one to like get angry and stuff. But... (PAUSE) So it’s like... I just didn’t say anything because I didn’t want him to take these because I need them to sell them. (CRYING) He was like... I was like... I said, “I just don’t have any more money other than the card.” The card was almost like maxed and I was like, “I don’t have a dining table for Brady to like eat at.” He was like, “Well, I’ll pay for half of a dining table from Ikea.” And of course I was like, “Okay.” You know, I was just like, again, relieved he was giving me something. And, you know, the mediator was trying. But she was like, “You don’t think you’ll pay for the whole thing?” Like she... (PAUSE) And he was like, “No. I’ll pay for half.” And so... (PAUSE) Then he’s like, “I’ll pay for half of the credit card debt from when she left.” [00:09:01]

And then we got to alimony and he was like, “I didn’t expect to have to pay alimony. I wasn’t expecting that.” And she was like, “Well..” I guess child support you can’t waive but alimony you can. So she was like, “You know, Penelope can choose to waive the alimony or...” You know, usually alimony is like 30% of your salary. And he’s like, “Well, at this point if I’m paying half the credit card bill and, you know, the tuition, I don’t really have any more money to give.” And... (PAUSE) I just was like... You know, I was kind of just being like, “Well, I don’t have... You know, right now I don’t have a car payment because the car is paid off and I’m living in a one bedroom apartment.” But I was like, “Eventually I’m going to have to have car payment and eventually I have to get a two bedroom so Brady has his own room. I don’t have enough money to do that.” And so he was... You know, he’s a finance guy and so he negotiates... His job is to like negotiate money for (inaudible). That’s what he does. He travels and he negotiates business things. [00:10:05]

So he was just like... He goes, “Well, how about this? How about if I pay... I’ll off all your debt so you don’t have...” Because I also said... I was like, “And then I have to pay the credit card bills.” You know, he was like, “I’ll pay off all your debt if you waive alimony.” And... (PAUSE) And I was like... You know, I kind of was like... Because the idea of not having any debt is like wonderful. You know? But...

THERAPIST: What is 30% of his income?

CLIENT: I mean, he makes 118. So...

THERAPIST: So you’d be getting $30,000 a year. So do you have hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt... So obviously that’s a better deal.

CLIENT: And the way I saw it... I thought he should be paying half of the credit card debt anyway. So even if he paid half, then I’m left with 7,500. And if I sold my diamond ring, I could pay that off. I would rather have a monthly check for the next however many years rather than just one lump sum right now. [00:11:05]

So... So I was just like, “I’m not sure.” So he was like, “Well, okay.” And it was kind of the... I mean, we had gone through everything. Everything else was like agreed upon, like we were fine. It was just like those, the money thing. So the mediator was like, “Well, let me just write everything up and like have your...” She looked at me. She was like, “You need to get a lawyer and have a lawyer look at this.” I think she... I mean, she can’t give advice. But you can tell she was a little concerned about what I was doing. You know? Like maybe like, “You’re kind of screwing yourself a little bit.” Because, at one point, Rich (ph) left to use the bathroom (PAUSE) and she was like, “I know this must be really hard.” And I was like, “Yeah. you know...” I said, “I’m just really...” I said, “I don’t want to... I’m not trying to bleed him dry with finances. Like I want him to have enough money for Brady too.” But I was like, “I’m just... I just want to have enough to like take care of my son.” And I said, “You know, I’m not even going after like his trust fund or any of that stuff.” And she’s like, “Are you sure about that? Are you sure you want to like just completely give up on that?” [00:12:09]

And then he walked in and she didn’t say anything else. Like it was... (LAUGHTER) She was trying to tell me something and then like couldn’t tell me anymore. So... (PAUSE) And, you know, he had me sign away like the hundred thousand dollar, what he calls loan from his parents like right after I had told him about not wanting to be married. He was like, “You know that was a loan.” I never understood it to be a loan. I was like, “I thought they gave it to us.” He was like, “No, it’s a loan.” So... (PAUSE) “You know, you can’t ask for that.”

THERAPIST: If it’s not in writing, it’s not a loan. Do you know if it’s in writing?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: If there’s not a specific... I mean, I guess the issue is what you’re doing, what you’re doing because you’re really limiting yourself to be extremely vulnerable.

CLIENT: I am. I mean, it’s hard because I feel like really guilty about stuff. (CRYING) So it’s like... I’m just like, “Just take it.” But then when I left, I was like... I don’t have enough money. You know? [00:13:05]

So it’s like I’m at this point where it’s like, you know... I’m fighting. I’m in the process of getting a lawyer. But I don’t want it to be like... You know, my friend who just got married, she’s like, “You know, I know you want it to be amicable and fast and easy.” But she’s like, “You can’t like allow yourself to be screwed for Brady’s sake. You know? And if it means you have an argument and, you know, end up going to court, then that’s what you do. You know?” She’s like, “You shouldn’t just say yes because you feel bad or because you want it to be done.” So... (PAUSE) I mean, he’s not being like mean or anything. I think he’s just... I think he just knew what to say and I was just so like, you know, like overwhelmed by the whole process. (PAUSE) [00:13:53]

And then for the dog, I was just like, “Can you contribute for the dog?” And he said, “No.” He was like, “Can’t you just give him away?” I was like, “I don’t want to.” (PAUSE) So... (PAUSE) I mean, what I would like ideally is... I just need like a monthly check from him every day and I need him to pay half the... I mean, it would be nice if he proportionally paid off the debt, proportionally based on our income. But even half would be fine. You know? (PAUSE) Because I thought I would leaving knowing, “Oh, I’m going to have this much every month.” And now I’m just like... (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: But he has not treated you well. So why would you...

CLIENT: I know. That’s what my friend said. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:14:39) If he consulted an attorney, Connecticut is a very clear formula. He was trying to railroad you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: There’s no... There isn’t that much in Connecticut that’s negotiable.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like it becomes complicated when someone has their own business. How do you assess that value?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But how... What the... How things are divided are pretty clear. How you assess value can be something.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know, there’s a 30% formula for alimony, there’s a certain percent for child support.

CLIENT: Child support. Yeah. [00:15:07]

THERAPIST: I mean, there’s not that much that an attorney could do around that.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And so the fact that he’s trying to not pay child support and just split the major cost... He knows that that is not standard if you get a lawyer, there’s no way...

CLIENT: Well, that’s... My friend’s like, “Listen.” She like, “Don’t even bring up anything else to him right now.” She’s like, “Get a lawyer and have him... He will tell you like, ‘No. This is actually what you should be getting.’ And when you guys meet again, just say, ‘My lawyer said...’ You know, this is what I want. This is what the lawyer’s...”

THERAPIST: You may not want to meet with him without a lawyer again.

CLIENT: I know. No, I don’t think I will.

THERAPIST: But it does sounds like you’re just sort of hoping this goes away...

CLIENT: I am.

THERAPIST: ...this problem goes away. It’s not going to go away.

CLIENT: No. I mean, if I didn’t have the child, I would have been like (PAUSE) just, “Let’s be done. I don’t care.” I don’t care about money. I don’t. (PAUSE) [00:16:00]

But I have a child I have to like make sure he has what he needs. You know?

THERAPIST: But you have needs too. You don’t know if you can afford your own therapy.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: I mean, I think you can if you advocate well. But it’s... You’re... Brady is extremely important. But you have needs too.

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) (CRYING) It just feels like it’s just overwhelming, everything. (PAUSE) I like hate talking about money. I’m like not a good negotiator. Then I have to play this like fine line with him because it’s like then I need him for stuff. It’s like... Today I... You know, I’m trying to go home to see my parents. (PAUSE) And it’s... My family... It’s cheaper if I fly on days when he would have Brady. So I have to be nice because I’m like, “Do you think it’s okay if you... If I take him on those days,” so that we’re flexible. So he’s like, “Yeah, of course.” And he does it. [00:17:01]

I mean, he’s very nice about that. Or, you know... (PAUSE) I have a work event next week and I didn’t want to pay a sitter so he was like, “I’ll pick him up and take him.” You know, he’s very helpful in that way. So I try to play this like, you know, pleasant with him but... I sometimes... I’m just feeling, especially with money, I feel like I’m just getting screwed a little bit. I mean, he makes twice what I make. His parents give him money every month. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: That can definitely be factored in.

CLIENT: Right. Because there’s this place on the form where you can put that information. Like...

THERAPIST: There’s definitely... I mean, I’m so not an expert on this.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I know that people are... If parents help out if they’re in a particular bad situation, attorneys really discourage that because that’s considered communal money.

CLIENT: Right, right. [00:17:59]

THERAPIST: So the $100,000... If it’s not specified as a loan that’s getting paid off, half of that is yours. That is a marital asset.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You can decide if you want to take it but it... You’re entitled to it.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And you don’t feel comfortable right now. It’s not like $50,000 doesn’t matter to you. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yeah. And then it’s... (SIGH) You know, I know I need a... You know, because I’m worried about paying the lawyer. My friend was like, “You know, it’s worth it. Figure out a way to pay it and then they’ll help you in some way.” I mean, he’s just in a position where he makes more money and he has a trust fund where his parents just take money out for him and his parents give him money. And I don’t have... I don’t have any of that back up at all. I don’t have any cushion to like land on. (PAUSE) I mean, I’ll sell my jewelry. I’m going to sell it like right away so I have something. [00:19:01]

(PAUSE) But it’s not like my parents have a lot... They don’t have a lot. My brothers are kind of like, “Well, we can give you something if you need it.” But they have their own families. My brother... (PAUSE) I mean, it’s not that he’s not trying to give me anything. But he is... You know, it’s weird because he knows I don’t have money but he knows I have Brady. So it’s like... (PAUSE) I don’t know. (PAUSE) (SIGH) I know. And then the whole fucking insurance thing and... (PAUSE) I’m not covering anything and just like... (SIGH) (PAUSE) (CRYING) I just want it done. You know? (PAUSE) [00:20:00]

I just want to know how much I’ll have and just like be done. (PAUSE) And, I mean, I gave him a budget. So... (PAUSE) I mean, I budgeted like two sessions here at $75. The budget I sent last night to the mediator, to him... So... (PAUSE) I mean, I’m hoping to have enough to do that. (PAUSE) I mean, if that like works for you. (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) He’s just mad at me. (PAUSE) I mean, in the mediation, he was like, “Well, you cheated on me.” It’s like, “I know that.” Like... (PAUSE) He’s like, “This was all you. You did all this.” And the mediator’s like, “That’s not a reason for... You know, you can’t like factor that as anything.” You know? [00:21:05]

(PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) So...

THERAPIST: This sounds like... This may sound like tough love and I’m thinking, “Penelope. You’ve got to own this.”

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: You decided to leave your husband. You’ve got to take care of yourself. You’ve got to take care of your son. You’re not helpless. In fact, it sounds like there are resources there that you have, that you could have if you needed to sort of step up and do what you need to do.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You’re not helpless in this situation. You feel helpless and you feel guilt ridden and you just want to shirk away. But I think you’ll really regret it.

CLIENT: I think you’re right. No, I mean, I... My friend was like, “You know, he’s not... I know you’re so concerned about being nice to him.” But she said, “He’s not being nice to you.” [00:22:05]

So she said, “Get a lawyer and be like serious about it. You know?” She was like, “You will get screwed.” She was like, “You signed something, it’s like signed for years. You know? And I will do that. I mean, I’ll do it. It’s just... I just like... I guess I just thought it would be like easier than when I left. I was like, it’s not...

THERAPIST: I know. I mean, that’s something we should really talk about. That would thought it would be easier because you wanted it to be easier.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You didn’t think it to be easier based on... It’s not like all the sudden, he was really helping you out and doing all these things and being very, you know, sort of thoughtful and then all of the sudden, he’s pulling the rug out.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: He’s pretty consistent.

CLIENT: Yeah. That’s true.

THERAPIST: He’s being vindictive. He’s really trying to leave you without any resources. I mean, he’s being consistent.

CLIENT: Right. No, you’re right. (PAUSE) [00:23:00]

No. I have to just... I mean, I feel like I need to make sure I’m getting what I should be getting.

THERAPIST: You decided to leave him and he’s really pissed off.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, he’s mad. (PAUSE) Yeah. He is. I mean, and he knows this is his way of (PAUSE) punishing me is by, you know, money.

THERAPIST: And you can feel guilty and we can work through it. But I also think, in the end, this will probably embolden you to feel you did the right thing.

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I mean, I left feeling I completely did the wrong thing. I left being like what... I don’t feel good about anything. I just... Not anything. Most of the things we agreed on fine. But like the money aspect, I was like, “What the hell did I just do?” Like... (PAUSE) I don’t feel good about it at all.

THERAPIST: And I was referring specifically to leaving the marriage.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:23:57]

THERAPIST: I mean, he’s giving you very good reason to feel good about that decision.

CLIENT: No. I mean, you’re right. I mean, I’m every day of this that passes, I’m feeling like, you know, of course... I’m like very certain I made the right decision. And everyone just says... You everyone that has been divorced says it’s just really, really hard. This is what they’re referring to. You leave someone and you still have to see them and then you talk about your crap and like relationship in front of like lawyers and dissect everything and like deal with money. It’s just... You know, you’re both... You know, he’s angry at me. But now he’s like, “I have to give you money? Like you cheated on me and left me. Now I have to write you a check?” I’m sure he’s probably like, “Forget that.” You know? Because writing a check to me is like much harder to me than writing a check to his school.

THERAPIST: I’m sure. I’m sure it alleviates something in his mind to feel like he’s paying something for Brady’s school versus giving you money.

CLIENT: Right. Money. Totally. [00:25:03]

THERAPIST: But, I mean, him paying some bills directly makes no sense.

CLIENT: No. And if he wanted to do that and write me a check on top of that, sure. But like he’s... I’d rather just say, “Give me a check for $1,000 every month. And I’ll pay... Out of that, I’ll pay for his school.”

THERAPIST: You’re going to get a lot more than $1,000 every month. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: And I mean, I know he has the condo. But, I mean, sell it and downsize. You don’t have to have a four bedroom condo if you don’t want to pay for utilities on a place like that. You know?

THERAPIST: That’s a big place for one adult and a child half the time.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to heat the whole place, central air, pay condo dues, pay taxes on it. (PAUSE) [00:26:00]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: And you split the equity in that too.

CLIENT: I mean, he’s definitely given me that check. So he agreed to that. That was fine. He says he needs to refinance in order to give me that check. So... (PAUSE) He’s going to try to do that as quickly as he can. (PAUSE) And part of the, paying the debt was when we refinanced, he would get more money for the credit card bills. (PAUSE) I mean, I don’t think he’ll be opposed to giving me a check instead. It’s just the number, how much it’ll be. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: You don’t even have to have these financial discussions with him anymore.

CLIENT: No. [00:27:01]

I don’t want to because I feel like I just get like... He just knows so much about that stuff that I feel like he just kind of talks. Like, you know, I sent him and the mediator my budget last night and said, “This is how much I spend in a month. This is how much I bring home.” And he just responded like, “Actually, technically, you’re referring to 24 paychecks a year. There’s actually 26. So your monthly income is actually a little bit more.” And then he was like, “And I pay you half the insurance so you actually make this much more. You actually make this month more a month.” He said, “Not to nitpick. But...” It’s like... I just wrote back, “Thanks.” (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: There’s a way in which you’re approaching this as if you feel like a little kid.

CLIENT: I think my parents always like fought about money so I like never. Like that was always what the fights were always about. And even Brady knows I never like talking about money and not having it. [00:28:05]

(PAUSE) Because my parents were always like in debt and like (PAUSE) barely able to pay for stuff. So it was like that was like my childhood and so with Brady, I never had to worry about that. And now I’m back in that place again. (CRYING) (PAUSE) And this time I’m like by myself. You know? (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) I mean, he knows I don’t like talking about it. He knows money like stress... Like the topic is just like I don’t like to talk about it. So he knows that and it’s like... (PAUSE) Working with that... (PAUSE) [00:29:00]

(PAUSE) So I’m not going to talk to him about it anymore. I’m just going to wait until I get the papers from the mediator and then give them to a lawyer. And then we’ll go back and present what we are, our counter offer, I guess you would say. (PAUSE) Let’s see if we can just agree to that.

THERAPIST: I mean, it sounds like you’re shifting for sure. But I am struck kind of by the hopelessness you’re... You know, like he has all the power and you feel kind of like a little kid. Like, “Okay. Whatever you...”

CLIENT: I know. I feel like he’s got money and a family behind him. I mean, I’ve got friends. But I don’t have like my parents here or like my brothers. You know? (PAUSE) I mean, he has as much money and they write him checks for like tens of thousands of dollars whenever he needs it. You know? I’m sure they paid for his lawyer. He didn’t pay $7,000 for a lawyer. His mom gave him that money.

THERAPIST: That’s great. You have half of that. I mean, seriously... That’s... Attorneys are always telling their clients, “Do not start taking large sums of money from your parents because that’s considered joint assets when you’re still married.” That’s awesome. [00:30:11]

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I’m serious.

CLIENT: Yeah. But is he going to say, “Oh, they gave that money to me.” Like...

THERAPIST: They pull bank... Bank accounts are going to be part of the... You have to give full disclosure of bank accounts. So no you don’t say it. You have to actually produce bank statements.

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) I’m just hoping... I just need to get a lawyer. Once I have a lawyer, I’ll feel a thousand times better because then I’ll feel like I have someone. (PAUSE) That’s like what I need. (CRYING)

THERAPIST: I hear how lonely you feel in all of this. (PAUSE) [00:30:59]

The reality is you have support and you have yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) You’re right. I just need to get my shit together. (PAUSE) I just hate (inaudible) stupid. (PAUSE) So for now, I mean... I don’t know if I can come like once a month until I know what’s... I mean, I should know hopefully soon. But... (PAUSE) Because I can’t not keep coming. [00:32:01]

THERAPIST: Well, as far as I’m concerned about, you know, the financial aspect, you know, I’m... (PAUSE) What you said in terms of paying me, that’s fine.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: A $75 session is fine. And if you need time to pay me that, that’s fine too. So, in other words, if you feel like you can afford that every other week, come every other week. And if you need some time to pay that until you get more settled that’s fine.

CLIENT: Okay. I really appreciate that. Because I will have a check from him at some point.

THERAPIST: Because I... I’m guessing you probably... I don’t want to say what you can and can’t afford. That’s your decision. But I imagine you’ll have a decent amount of money to afford that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: That is... (PAUSE) The other thing is just to... On a real logistic level, if you have a flex spending option...

CLIENT: I do. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You can use that for this. So you can...

CLIENT: I need to set it up the open enrollment. But I can’t do that yet.

THERAPIST: And that saves a little, whatever your, you know... [00:33:07]

Seventy five dollars would be more like $50. It would be pretty generous. So you will definitely save some money too.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, my expenses aren’t... It’s normally like utilities, the rent, and like this and the gym. That’s it. Like those are like my expenses that I listed and then clothes for Brady and then groceries and all that stuff. But I didn’t even put on there like a soccer class for him or toys, you know, like books, you know, any of that.

THERAPIST: You might be advised to put as much as, not to put false stuff on, but as much as you really think you will need.

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) I feel like the lawyer will definitely clear things up for me. I feel like I just don’t know what I’m doing.

THERAPIST: Well, it’s almost like you’re afraid.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:34:01]

THERAPIST: What do you think you’re afraid of?

CLIENT: I mean, I’m mostly... The biggest thing I’m afraid of is that we will go to court and this will cost like so much money. (PAUSE) And like this would be going on for like a year and a half or something because I don’t want to do that.

THERAPIST: So the fear is essentially that you will somehow recreate your parents’ marriage and there will be ongoing tension around...

CLIENT: Money. For like what? Two years? Like... (PAUSE) And that’s the only... That’s like the main issue is money. Everything else we agreed on. Everything else is fine. And I’m sure that’s why marriages get like divorces get crappy is over money. You know? (PAUSE) (SIGH) I just don’t want to keep. Yeah. It’s just like... (PAUSE) I just need to him to understand the money is for Brady. That’s what the mediator kept saying. She’s like, “You know, it’s for Brady. That’s how you have to look at it. It’s not for her.” [00:35:05]

THERAPIST: It doesn’t have to actually... Again, he has nothing to gain going to court. There’s pretty hard and fast... I mean, if his attorney is worth his salt, unless his attorney is out to make money on his own, there’s not much to be gained in court. These things are pretty... They’ll get the same outcome in court. They’re pretty hard and fast. There’s not that much negotiation. There will be nothing really gained. And if he’s getting any sort of sound advice, that’s what...

CLIENT: I mean, yeah. You’d hope his lawyer would be like, “Listen.” Oh, I mean, I’m sure the lawyer now is like, “That’s great that she agreed to all that.” But then when I come back and say, “Actually no,” the lawyer might say, “You know, she kind of has grounds for getting that. So there’s not much we can do to fight against this.” That’s what I’m hoping that he hears that. It’ll be like, “Okay. Fine, let’s just agree to this.”

THERAPIST: And if he feels like constantly resentful of giving you a check, there’s nothing you can do about it.

CLIENT: He’s such a... He’s a really good dad and he loves Brady a lot. So he doesn’t want me living... And I’ve said that... I was like, “You know, I can find a cheaper place that isn’t as nice and might be further away.” I mean, that was another thing. He was like, “You know, I’d be nice if you could stay in the area.” And I’m like, “Okay. You’re asking me to stay in greater Providence which is like one of the most expensive cities (LAUGHTER) in the country. And I will but I need to be able to afford a rent for that.” You know? (PAUSE) Because I can move to like somewhere out west and pay a lot less. You know? But, you know, I don’t want to do that myself but... (PAUSE) So he wants what’s best for Brady for sure. It’s not like he wants me to live in some horrible conditions because Brady is there half the time. (PAUSE) [00:37:00]

(PAUSE) So... I just don’t think he likes giving me a check.

THERAPIST: It sounds like the mediator is being pulled to be your advocate in a way...

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, she could tell something, that I was just sitting there, you know, “Uh huh, okay. Sure. Thank you for giving me that little thing.” She was kind of like, you know... Even with the $100,000 thing, he was like, “Well, I asked Penelope to sign something that said she wouldn’t go for that.” (PAUSE) And she’s like, “So... So it was a loan?” And he was like, “Yes. My parents said it was a loan.” So she’s like, “Then you’re going to pay them back $100,000?” And he was like, “Yes.” She’s like, “Okay.”

THERAPIST: He will have to produce some sort of payment plan. Actually, I don’t think (inaudible).

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) I mean, she was asking him things like that where it was like... You could tell... I mean, she wasn’t trying to be that my sided but she was just asking questions like that. [00:38:07]

And when I left, she looked at me. She was like, “You need to get a lawyer.” She was like, “Just get a lawyer.” In the end, she was like, “You guys are going such a good job. You’re very respectful of each other.” She was like, “I’ve witnessed some really terrible situations in here.” So she’s like, “That’s good.” But she’s like, “Get a lawyer to look over your stuff before you sign anything,” is what she kept saying to me. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, you don’t like upsetting people and you really, really upset him.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you upset him because you want to live a different life.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And you’re having a hard time just inhabiting that space.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I hate... I always wanted to make sure everyone’s fine. Like... (PAUSE) [00:39:00]

(PAUSE) It’s just like I feel like I’m just like treading that fine line of being amicable but also like getting what I should get. (PAUSE) Because I don’t want it to get nasty. I don’t want it to be that way.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t sound like he’s invested in being sort of contentious there.

CLIENT: No. He doesn’t want that either.

THERAPIST: No. He doesn’t. But it seems like the peace that you’re looking for is some sort of peace between you and him and the peace that you’re going to get is the peace in yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. Right.

THERAPIST: You made the decisions you made. You made some people unhappy. And you did what you felt was right for you and what you wanted. And now you need to make things, you know, okay for you and livable for you and comfortable.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And that’s not going to make him happy. He’s going to want to give you less.

CLIENT: Yeah. He is. And I know his parents are very much like concerned about what kind of money I’ll be trying to take and so they’ve been in his ear, I’m sure, giving him all sorts of... [00:40:11]

I mean, he’s... I’m dealing with a guy so is a finance dude, who knows money. His parents are all about that. They... I mean, I’m sure... I mean, he... He like removed his money from our joint account the day after I talked to him about all this. Like he knew exactly like what he had to do. (PAUSE) I just sent the e-mail to him, three years’ worth of credit card statements yesterday so that he could see like I wasn’t off going on trips with someone. You know? (PAUSE) Because he wanted to see what all of the charges were about. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I would stop sending him anything until you get a lawyer. (PAUSE) [00:41:00]

CLIENT: Okay. (PAUSE) Yeah. (PAUSE) I’m hoping I’ll have the lawyer by the end of this week, like someone just lined up.

THERAPIST: The fact that he wanted you to sign something about that money...

CLIENT: That came from his parents, I’m sure.

THERAPIST: He knows that that’s going to be, you know, joint property. Otherwise, he wouldn’t worry about it.

CLIENT: And that’s why my friend was like, “Well, if it was a loan, then why would he be have asked you to sign something?” (PAUSE) And I was like, “I’m sure that’s what his parents have told him to have me do that.” Now it’s like three days after we had our initial conversation about everything. And so I was like emotionally like a hot mess and I kind of was like, “I don’t know if I should sign this.” And he was like, “Well, you said that you weren’t going to go after this money so why would you sign this?” [00:42:03]

(PAUSE) Yeah. (SIGH) (PAUSE) I think I was just stupid to think this process was going to be like... “Oh, it’ll be fine. We’ll totally agree with this and we’ll be able to file by April.”

THERAPIST: Well, you made your decision to leave him to end when you were actually left the house. You didn’t want the decision to be something that you needed to carry through to here.

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) Right. (PAUSE) This next few weeks or a month... I don’t know how long. They’re going to be like exhausting. (SIGH) (PAUSE) [00:43:00]

My friends have been great though. They’re very distracting and wonderful. I’m still like exercising every day because it’s good for my mind. (PAUSE) I just like hate the element of this shit. (PAUSE) And I think I just... I know once I like talk to someone and they explain things then I’ll feel a lot better because I feel like right now I don’t know anything. I mean, if he’s like, “No, you’re entitled to this percentage of child support. This is what you should be getting,” I’ll feel better. You know? (PAUSE) And I just... I hope he’ll agree to this, you know... (PAUSE) [00:43:57]

I mean, I... Because I essentially left... My friend was like, “So what’s...” I was like, “Well, I don’t really have child support. I don’t really have alimony. And he might pay for... He said he’d pay for half the credit card bill. (LAUGHTER) That was it.” She was like, “What?” I was like, “Oh, and he’ll pay for Brady’s school which is day care for the next fifteen months.” And she was like, “He makes a lot more than you. How did that happen?” (LAUGHTER) I was like, “I don’t know.” (LAUGHTER) I didn’t know what the hell I was doing. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, you want to feel like you’re being nice.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, if I had known he had a lawyer too... You know, if he had said, “I’m going to talk to someone before,” I probably would have been, “Okay. We’ll I’ll get someone and prepare myself.” But it was just like, “No, we’ll go in and like see what we can agree to.” Because he had said... He’s like, “Yeah. Well, let’s not use lawyers if we don’t have to.”

THERAPIST: Well, you know you can’t trust him in this way.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: He’s not going to be honest with you. (PAUSE)

CLIENT: No. I mean, it’s like you could tell the things he was saying someone had told him how to say it. You know? [00:45:01]

He was like prepared. (PAUSE) Yeah. He certainly was prepared. (SIGH) So... (PAUSE) I just think it’s ridiculous because I feel like he can physically see that I don’t have enough money. So what does he expect? Like does he... Like doesn’t he see that I can’t afford to like live on what I make. So...

THERAPIST: He’s very (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

THERAPIST: Yeah, well it’s... Yeah. He’s not really thinking. He’s thinking as a man texting friends and family and everyone that he can get an ear to that you had an affair. He’s not really thinking that rationally in that respect.

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) Right. (PAUSE) [00:45:57]

THERAPIST: I mean, it sounds like he’s really trying to keep Brady out and he’s not doing a bad job in that respect. I mean, he’s not maligning you to him.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: So he is trying to sort of keep things together. But he’s also not thinking very rationally in many respects.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And he’s not going to give you things out of concern...

CLIENT: No. I think he’ll give it to me because someone’s telling him he has to.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (PAUSE) And that doesn’t sit well with you.

CLIENT: No. Because I want him to be like, “Okay. Here.” (PAUSE) But I know it’s not going to be that way. (PAUSE) I just have to like... Yeah. I just need to be focused on like what Brady and I need and like that’s the goal. [00:46:59]

(PAUSE) Like that’s the goal. (PAUSE) Be as cordial with him and whatever but I’m not going to allow... I don’t want to allow him to just like walk all over me either. (PAUSE) Because it affects Brady in the end. (PAUSE) (SIGH) (PAUSE) I hate this shit. (SIGH) (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I can understand why. (PAUSE) You really need to stretch how you behave and who you are well outside your comfortable boundaries.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: When you decided to leave him, you did that too.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. I never thought I would do something like that ever. [00:48:03]

I never thought I would ever be in this like situation in my entire life. (PAUSE) Doing that... Like leaving him and all that, like making that decision is not who I have been. You know? (PAUSE) And I kind of have to like kind of be still like do that, be that person. (PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Okay Penelope, we’re going to need to stop for today.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So you said... What would you like to do?

CLIENT: So should I come back in two weeks then?

THERAPIST: Well, whatever... Again, I’m fine for, with $75 from here on out.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And you can just figure out how you’ll pay me.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Then, you know, so that will be our agreement with the understanding that if it takes you some time for the previous bill, that last session... You know, I was going to... [00:49:05]

So originally the $40 was because you had insurance too.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So I was going to prorate January but rather than do that, why don’t... If it’s okay, for January, I’ll keep the $40 for the sessions even though you didn’t...

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: And we’ll just do $75.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And you just whatever... I mean, if you want to pay me a little here and there, we’ll just... I’m really fine with that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I mean, I think maybe... I think it would make me feel better instead of doing every week to do it every other week.

THERAPIST: If you prefer to start that way until things are...

(CROSSTALK)

CLIENT: Yeah and then once I know... I mean, I might know hopefully in the next, by next month, this time next month, “Oh, I can actually afford more.”

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I just still... I don’t even know how much the lawyer is going to be and all that stuff. So I just want to... I mean, I can’t not come because I’m going to like lose my mind. So I’ll just plan to come in two weeks.

THERAPIST: That’s fine. That’s absolutely fine.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: If you need me before, please let me know.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you. Thank you for being so flexible and understanding. I appreciate it.

THERAPIST: Sure. I want to help you out.

CLIENT: You do. You have no idea.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care.

CLIENT: See you. [00:50:09]

END TRANSCRIPT