TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
(start at 00:00:30)
THERAPIST: Hi.
CLIENT: Hi. (pause) How are you?
THERAPIST: I'm real good.
CLIENT: I have a lot of questions for you.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: About Passover and Easter.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: I'm wondering if this time of year stirs things up for you. I've been thinking about it a lot. (pause)
THERAPIST: Well what have you been thinking?
CLIENT: Well I just wonder what it must be like. Like Easter is the heebie-jeebiest of the Christian holidays. And, uh, (pause) it just seems like it would be really hard if you were meant to celebrate or participate in any way. And if not's hard, I wonder how that came to be. (pause) And Passover is an important one. And I wonder how it gets treated in your life now. (pause) I want to know about your children. And I just think about it. I've been thinking about it for several days. [00:02:08]
THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) What about my children?
CLIENT: Well I wonder what they learn and what they think and what you do with them. And I wonder if this is an issue at all. And I wonder if it's different now that you have children as opposed to before you had children. And I wonder if there are in-laws involved.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And what there all is. (long pause)
THERAPIST: Well, I'm not going to answer these ones directly. (pause) You're looking at me with a cat (ph) face. [00:03:16]
CLIENT: Yeah. I'm listening.
THERAPIST: Um. (pause)
CLIENT: I guess I'm watching you.
THERAPIST: And I'm sort of wondering what (pause) what the stake for you is in these particular questions. I was thinking there is just sort of a part about knowing me better. But there seems to be something specific about the religiosity to you. [00:04:24]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: The thing about how it could be heebie-jeebeeish for me to be sort of celebrating Easter, or part of an Easter celebration, or mass or something.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Well, Christianity gives me the heebie-jeebies in the first place.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: I don't think it's my attitude about all religion and all interreligious participation. I think it's Easter and I think it's Christianity.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. Oh.
CLIENT: And I think I could have never married somebody who had a Christian commitment. [00:05:22]
THERAPIST: Mm hm. I see.
CLIENT: So maybe part of it is, like what would I do. And (pause) it just seems like a really interesting thing to navigate.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And I'm curious about it.
THERAPIST: What about it gives you the heebie-jeebies?
CLIENT: Um. (pause) So the premise that humans were born having done something wrong. I mean, in particular, Catholicism (inaudible at 00:06:10)
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: The lack of, uh, (pause) acknowledgement of very strong scientific evidence.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: For many people who take the Bible literally, especially the new testament.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And I don't know that much about -
THERAPIST: You mean things like evolution, biology (ph), things like that?
CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know that much about the teachings. There have been times where I have been sort of rational and curious and calm enough where I think I could dive into them. And there are times when it's just too much. Too much bad stuff.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I think kindness and compassion in Christianity have gone a long way towards a lot of good in the world. [00:07:20]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I've seen it in India, a lot. I think religion has tremendous capacity to contribute in that way. And I think Christians do that well. And, I'm just, if you look at the demographic of this country -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: they are really the scariest fundamentalists (inaudible at 00:07:48)
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Christian. And I don't know why Islam doesn't strike me the same way. I guess it's closer to home. Or I know more Muslims who I really respect or something.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And, yeah, there's just something about the Catholic kind of thing and the worship thing of guy (ph) Like the monarchy of them and the (pause) And how the resurrection, it's just so weird. It just feels really weird to me. And it feels really weird to the Jewish people in my life. [00:08:45]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like Jeremy's Dad, or -
THERAPIST: Like the resurrection thing in particular?
CLIENT: Uh huh. And like celebrating it and this time of year seems to stir up [feelings up in people]. (ph)
THERAPIST: Hm. (long pause)
CLIENT: But mostly the idea that humans have done something wrong.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)
CLIENT: That seems very, very, very wrong to me. [00:09:57]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And dumb.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause) I gather that you mean that in a general way and not to do with that particular In other words, not just what Christianity holds to me, but -
CLIENT: Well. No, I think sex is especially something.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: That feels very, very, very wrong to me to call wrong. (pause) I guess my parents didn't really paint a picture of sex as being a particularly great thing, or a right thing. (pause) Or maybe some of it is (inaudible at 00:11:05) or something like that.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)
CLIENT: Duh. And like confession. Oh, there's just so many things. I don't know how you're supposed to talk about it. (sigh) (pause) I mean, from a karmic way of looking at the world, the idea of confession and atonement. And there's some of this in Judaism too. The relationship to like doing wrong and doing right just seems really crooked to me. Like how do you make up for doing wrong. And what motivates you to do right? [00:12:24] (pause)
THERAPIST: And what about it is crooked? In like (inaudible at 00:12:45). (pause)
CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) I think I'm thinking about confession and like how that somehow reverses or relieves one of his or her responsibility.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Plus, like, you know the whatever rote, ritualistic things you have to do after confessions to make it okay.
THERAPIST: Oh I see.
CLIENT: And then it's, like, okay.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And why do you do good things. It's because you sinned. It's not why most I mean, I can see how that could motivate a lot of people to do good things if that's where they were coming from. [00:13:48]
THERAPIST: Uh huh. But you don't like it. In other words, uh (pause)
CLIENT: Like there's too much guilt.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I think guilt has no role in anything. (pause) For me.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: I haven't really experienced guilt as a very useful or powerful emotion. (pause) And I have a lot of kindness and I can't imagine that you can't craft kindness like that without any guilt or any sense of owing something.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)
CLIENT: (inaudible at 15:01)
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: Mm hm. (long pause) It was very cool to be around a baby. It brought out a lot of good things in me.
THERAPIST: Mm. Like what?
CLIENT: Um. Like a fresh look at everything in the world. And an ability to live in the moment more. [00:16:59]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And incredible just like sense of connectedness and lovingness towards Jeremy and Tammy and Thomas. And I have been feeling conflicted about Tammy for a while.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: She and her staying at home mom-ness. And it was so nice to see it in action and I feel completely differently about it.
THERAPIST: What had your like sort of critical feelings been?
CLIENT: Um. I think I feel pressure from Jeremy's, the women in Jeremy's family to not send my children to daycare. [00:17:53]
THERAPIST: I see. It wasn't of her staying home.
CLIENT: It was.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: I think that's one thing. But like her making that decision makes me feel more pressure to value that in my future. And, um, she had aides (ph) like six months before. She had six months of work left on her PhD and then like just couldn't find it in herself to go back for a long time. She took two maternity leaves and then went back part time. And then sort of got her committee to agree to cut one chapter. And then she [got pregnant] (ph) and got her PhD.
But it was so painful. And I guess I sort of think that that was dumb timing and Thomas thought too and was mad at her for starting going back on that agreement and plan together.
THERAPIST: What does she do?
CLIENT: She got her PhD in the sciences.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And I guess she (inaudible at 00:19:26) (ph) now.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Um. And she's just very, she's really strongly opinionated and is judgmental. And being in a really positive place with my PhD, it made me feel uncomfortable around her.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And I don't see myself being able to stay at home.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But, in general, this whole thing just reeks of like, "You don't know what you're going to do until you have a kid."
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Until you root yourself as a parent. And there's too much, "This is the right way. This is the wrong way." But all of that sort of went away.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: This weekend because my Tammy and Michael have built this incredible world which actually has him being much more independent than I think I ever was as a baby, from what I've heard. He's really good at saying "Goodbye." He's really good at changing activities. He reads for like an hour and a half a day, and maybe a year and a half. He gets read to and he reads himself. Uh, reads. [00:20:43]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And there's just a lot of like describing.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And Tammy's thriving. (ph)
THERAPIST: Mm hm. That's great.
CLIENT: Mm hm. And he gives hugs and kisses to everyone and everything. And that is like a lot of how I feel most of the time.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So it was really nice to see that borne out in a human.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)
CLIENT: Because I guess I feel like I can't do it. (pause)
THERAPIST: What do you mean?
CLIENT: Well like people I see don't want hugs (inaudible at 00:21:54). And there's not like this grand Like everybody is paying attention to what Michael is doing all the time and acknowledges his love for the fountain, or his [play toys] (ph), or me.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But then, I think that would feel very nice.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. In a way do you feel it goes unacknowledged and unrecognized?
CLIENT: Yeah. Or it gets interpreted or wrong or something. (pause) In particular it was really amazing to see how well he reads. [00:23:15]
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: I felt myself feeling envious.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Like somehow he can love the world and want to stay in it and yet also say "Goodbye?"
CLIENT: Mm hm.
THERAPIST: Is that what is mysterious?
CLIENT: It's mysterious to me?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. But I cried on the way to the airport, and Thomas didn't cry. (pause) I don't mind crying. It felt very important to cry and to be sad and to talk about how I felt sad. It's just really hard to, I find it hard to leave.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: The whole world is leaving.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:24:29)
THERAPIST: Mm hm. (pause)
CLIENT: That cruelty that you talked about.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I think that's right. I think I feel like the world is cruel a lot. (pause)
THERAPIST: I think that it seems like an important distinction to me that (pause) it's not just that it's kind of naturally sad to say "Goodbye" in a sense. But also there's a feeling of being cruelly treated. [00:25:47]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: As if, "Someone is doing something to me."
CLIENT: [Like with Jeremy.] (ph) Usually when someone talks about something as being cruel they feel like someone is doing something cruel to them or something is doing something cruel to them. And I couldn't really identify who was doing anything. Like maybe his work is cruel and my graduate school is cruel because they prevented us from staying longer. But -
THERAPIST: Maybe whoever you're leaving is kicking you out, even if they are not. [I mean it feels that way.] (ph) Maybe they are always leaving you.
CLIENT: But Tammy was really sad too. I don't feel If she hadn't been really sad I would have felt that way, I think. [00:26:50]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So like here I think I feel that a lot because you're not so outward.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But somehow there is some comfort in sharing the sadness with her and talking about it with her afterwards.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And hearing about how it was the same and how it was different. And she didn't cry but she felt really, really grumpy for a long time.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And Michael was sad in a way that He wasn't sad but he missed us a lot. And he asked about us and was sort of narrating (ph) what had happened. And these things helped me feel not alone. Jeremy, on the other hand, is sort of an expert at not really participating in my sadness. He's there for me and he's very, he knows very well what's going on for me. But there's not that sense of like, "I'm sad too."
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:28:26)
CLIENT: Well I don't think he's sad. (inaudible)
THERAPIST: I mentioned that it can be very painful for you. I'm not saying he did something bad.
CLIENT: It's just likeYeah. I had to, um, (pause, sigh). I had to ask Jeremy for his one hundred percent attention during this transition because it was feeling really, really sad and bad to me. And then it was like a couple of minutes later until the iPhone went off. And then I got his hand and then I was like crying and talking about how I was feeling sad. And like having him nod and saying, "I know." And, "It's okay to feel sad." But not Tammy felt like a guide to it and Jeremy didn't. Jeremy felt like a (clears throat) witness. [00:30:00]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Which I don't have any interest in changing, but I think it's pretty painful.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (long pause)
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:30:32)
THERAPIST: Uh huh. (pause)
CLIENT: I was thinking about how different it is. Like the way you sort of, [what I want to say is] (ph), are with people or (inaudible at 00:31:14) people when it comes to good things that you feel as opposed to bad things.
CLIENT: Hm.
THERAPIST: Like when you're feeling something good, like just happy or loving or excited, you're very comfortable being sort of active and kind of right there. Like, "Here I am! This is how I'm feeling!"
CLIENT: Mm hm.
THERAPIST: You know? And when you're feeling sad or down, it seems to me that it's very different. That you're much more sort of hesitant, you feel much more passive. You might like ask Ben like that, but it's sort of a very different thing.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It's much more kind of, you know like, "Here I am. I'm sad. I'm right in your face right now." Like, "Be here with me. Hello!" Which, I'm characterizing obviously. But if you were feeling positive you might be more like that. [00:32:27]
CLIENT: I think that like the one hour from their house to the airport and in the airport contained both of those things.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Where, like (clears throat), "Aren't you excited to get dinner?" Like, "What are you going to get at dinner."
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like, "What do you think?" You'd have to get used to that. Like, "What do you think you're going to get?"
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: "Do you think I should get this? Are you excited to get the window seat?"
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: "Do you really want it."
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: "I know we made the deal, but do you really want it."
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: We talked a lot about couples therapy.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: With Tammy and Thomas as being someone that it's like night and day (inaudible 00:33:15).
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So that is something he doesn't really want to talk about in the airplane. But I did and was in his face about it.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So, yeah, there's kind of like this boost. And (pause), I don't know. Like I'm galvanizing, (ph) (pause) like wanting to share the happiness or something. (clears throat) I think I want to share the sadness too, but I don't know how. I don't want to inflict it on anyone else.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: And I don't like the response that most people give me when I'm sad. And I like the response that people give when I'm happy. (pause) [00:34:40]
THERAPIST: I mean, I guess me too in that I [feel like a witness,] (ph) which doesn't sound like I mean it's not bad in a way, but in other ways it's not that great. In that, yeah, if you felt like I felt that about the same thing in the same way. More so than if it feels like I do, that would be much more reassuring to you.
CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause)
THERAPIST: (sigh) Yeah. I think it probably feels like if I don't feel those ways, It's actually like I'm not really here with you, but kind of like on a (inaudible at 00:35:47). And you're sad and you're kind of alone. And maybe, you know, [I kind of see you or hear you], (ph) but I'm at a pretty great distance.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) It's like I'm not capable of experiencing the emotions, happy or sad, without like knowing that other people around me are experiencing them too. Or trying to get them to experience them, in most cases, being happy.
THERAPIST: We have a few minutes. Yeah, with happy it seems. I don't know. I get that when you come in and you're happy, like I don't get the same sense of you feeling alone or kind of worry or distance in the same way when you're happy and it doesn't -
CLIENT: I don't need it for it to be shared, but that's what I like to do.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm [seeing that] (ph) you like to share it and for it to be shared. But it doesn't pose a similar kind of threat. [00:37:20]
CLIENT: No. (pause) Yeah, I'm pretty content being alone and happy. But it's not my instinct, but it's -
THERAPIST: Well it's like you can be there with the other person happy even if they are not quite in the same place, or maybe (inaudible at 00:37:50) or something.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: In a way it's different than when you're feeling, yeah, sad.
CLIENT: You can see how if my view of how I experience the world is mostly happy.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I could see how that would sort of come about. How it would be a nice way to be.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: There's more sadness now, so it's (pause) Maybe (inaudible at 00:38:35).
THERAPIST: My hunch is that there's something that was more difficult with your parents. It's clear to me with your Dad about the sharing of sadness. Like there was a lot of happiness. You experienced mostly happiness. And that was easy to share. But when there was sadness, I don't mean they didn't want to listen or they didn't care, but there was something being missing. Something about how they didn't want to go quite there.
CLIENT: Mm hm.
THERAPIST: Or they wanted explain it quickly or soothe it quickly. I mean, soothing is good but when there is like anxiety about (inaudible at 00:39:42), or something like that.
CLIENT: Mm hm.
THERAPIST: And maybe that's it also with part of me, that it's [like we're witnessing this, that you're probably] (ph) feeling like we don't want to there? (pause)
CLIENT: I think you want to be here. Does it feel like you don't want to be here? I don't know.
THERAPIST: I don't mean like in this room. I mean if you're feeling sad about something -
CLIENT: Mm hm.
THERAPIST: I guess I imagine you might feel like I'm interested to hear about it or to kind of help you with it, but that my not feeling it in a similar way may have something to with my really not wanting to (pause)
CLIENT: I don't know.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: I don't know [that it's that way.] (ph)
THERAPIST: Okay. We need to stop. (pause)
CLIENT: We didn't get to a lot of stuff. [But now I do.] (ph) (laughs)
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