TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So how was your week?

CLIENT: (sighs) Uh! Hectic!

THERAPIST: Okay. Do tell!

CLIENT: Yeah. Where do I begin? My cousin was involved in, I guess, an altercation or something and was shoved, fell, hit her head, and had bleeding on the brain and all that; but she’s fine. Thank God!

THERAPIST: Oh, goodness!

CLIENT: Then my niece was involved in a really bad car accident; broke both her legs, her pelvis, had spine surgery, and she’s fine, too. Thank God! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Goodness!

CLIENT: Yes! And then, I found out that my granddad’s shingles are worse than they thought they were, so... But he’s fine, too. (laughs)

THERAPIST: How are you doing with all this?

CLIENT: Um... I’m hanging in there. I’m good, as could be expected, I guess. You know, I’m used to... I don’t know, I guess I’m just used to it.

THERAPIST: Just one thing after the other, kind of. [00:01:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I just deal with it as it goes.

THERAPIST: Used to the trauma of it all.

CLIENT: Yeah! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, it makes me wonder what kind of impact that has on you.

CLIENT: I don’t know. You know, I sometimes find myself feeling a little tired; then sometimes I find myself, still want to push and go, you know? Then I’ll tell myself, “Well you know, you’re really sleepy!” I’d be at the computer and, I’ll be like this... and then next thing I know, I’m up again, and I’m typing, and I have to go back the next day and read what I wrote because (laughs)...

THERAPIST: Because you nodded off?

CLIENT: I don’t remember what I wrote! (laughing)

THERAPIST: You know, I thought about our first session last week. It kind of stayed with me (client responds), this sort of you going to take this test and the experience that you had there, and just how devastating that was.

CLIENT: Oh, man! It was a mess!

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. It seems like that experience really kind of changed some things for you. [00:02:06]

CLIENT: Um, it did. You know, it made me question myself, you know? As far as while I was in school, did I really retain what I’ve been taught? (therapist affirms) You know, and I’m still questioning that. Then I feel like, sometimes my memory is not what it should be. So then I say, “Well, maybe it was me,” you know? But then, at the same time, I said, “But my grades were good,” you know and everything. I felt like I knew my stuff. So that takes me back to, “Okay, did you really know your stuff or...” I mean, it’s, you know... I try to weigh it, and I can’t seem to balance it in no type of way. I can’t figure it out.

THERAPIST: Yeah! Can you... can you take me back a little bit about, sort of your experiences in school? [00:03:04]

CLIENT: Yeah... Like maybe...

THERAPIST: Yeah, you smiled!

CLIENT: ...in grammar school on up? (therapist affirms) Okay. Um... I had a good mama. Maybe it was probably third, fourth grade, somewhere around there, I was really young, but I remember a teacher would tell me... She got really frustrated with me, because she said I raised my hand too much, I asked too many questions. (therapist responds) I guess that really did impact me, because I still don’t raise my hand to ask questions, you know. (chuckles) If I don’t understand something, and I really want to get the full understanding, I can’t help but to ask, you know.

Moving up the ladder, I... I would say in high school it was, doing a math problem. I can remember it pretty well. I believe it was... what were we doing? It was integers? The way that the teacher did the problem on the board, I couldn’t figure it out the way she was showing it to me, but I did it my way, and it was the same answer that she had; but because I didn’t follow the format that she gave, it was wrong. You know? I couldn’t understand that, you know? So then I said, “Okay, now I have a hard problem, a hard time with math.” I have a phobia of math now. I try to take any course or anything where I can avoid math (laughs) at all costs! [00:04:33]

THERAPIST: So, it sounds like you’ve learned some pretty powerful messages about yourself in school. (client affirms) And the message is?

CLIENT: Well the message for me is that... I see things a little bit different than most people. What a lot of people find to be simple, I may find to be a little difficult. (therapist affirms) Then what I find to be difficult, they find to be simple.

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: And, like for example, (sighs) I could be reading something, and my interpretation of it would be a little bit different than somebody else’s, you know, or than most people sometimes. But then, when we sit back and we discuss it (like I’m in a book club, we’re discussing it and everything), and then we both come to the same conclusion in the end, you know. [00:05:27]

And... Then, to another example, it’s like... Somebody could say something, like as a joke or whatever; where everyone else would get it, I’m like a little slow to get it. (therapist affirms) Then it’s like, when I hear it again, I’m like, “Oh!” But to me, it wasn’t... (laughs) you know?

THERAPIST: Right, but...

CLIENT: It wasn’t... I don’t know.

THERAPIST: But you know, it’s funny, because you’ve taken these experiences to mean something negative about yourself.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Well? You tell me!

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know. I guess I just feel like I should be... more intelligent. I should be more smarter or... You know, it’s like I’m lacking something and I don’t know what it is.

THERAPIST: What is it you think you’re lacking?

CLIENT: Um... (pause) Oh, I don’t know. I’m still trying to figure it out. You know, I think about it all the time, and you know, I just, I can’t figure it out for the life of me. You know, I feel like I’ve been in school all of my life, you know, and I’m still at this point, where I should have... been past this point. [00:06:39]

THERAPIST: That’s a lot of “I should have been.”

CLIENT: Yeah. And I hate to sing that song, that Coulda, Woulda, Shoulda?

THERAPIST: No, I tell, you know, it doesn’t sound like Could, Would, Shoulda. But you’re really hard on yourself about where you “should” be or what you “should” be doing. (client affirms) All right, where does that come from?

CLIENT: I... I don’t know. (therapist chuckles) I’m serious! I, you know... Oh, God! Here comes the tears... Um... (pause) I don’t know. I just, I feel like if I’ve been in school all this time... why am I just now at this point, you know? It’s almost like... It’s almost as if I am a little slower, you know. I don’t know. Then I tell myself, I said, “Well, you have to take into consideration that, okay, you stopped to have your kids. You know, then you raised your babies and stuff and...” [00:07:40]

THERAPIST: How painful is this for you?

CLIENT: Very, I guess. (therapist affirms) You know, and (sighs) then I tell myself, I say, “Well, if I didn’t have to deal with my mother and her drugs, and... help to take care of my sisters at an early age, you know, maybe my mindset would have been different.” You know, maybe I could have, like all the things that I think I’m trying to do now, I would have done then, you know? I feel like now, the role has been reversed somewhat, and I feel like the child in me is ready to come out and... But I’m like, “God, you’re 41!” I mean, you know, you’re thinking, I feel like I’m thinking backwards instead of forward. You know, sometimes.

THERAPIST: And when you say, “thinking backwards,” what do you mean?

CLIENT: I mean like (sighs)... what, the things that I didn’t do or wasn’t able to do back then, I’m trying to push it forward, like now. You know, live it now. (therapist affirms) You know, and I feel like it’s inappropriate, you know? It’s like when I... [00:08:49]

THERAPIST: What’s inappropriate?

CLIENT: You know, to like, want to go skating and want to... because I just feel like now, I should be thinking (chuckles), you know and maybe like a higher plane, you know, or something.

THERAPIST: There is that word again! You just punish yourself, don’t you? “I shoulda! Why didn’t I? But you know, I want to go back to something, you know. From the little bit you told me in our first session last week, your mom was addicted to drugs and you had to raise your sisters. (client affirms) Okay. And sort of, you know, how old were you again, as your...?

CLIENT: Ten. I was ten.

THERAPIST: Okay. So you were ten. So you had to grow up, essentially. (client affirms) All right. Then you had kids, how old were you?

CLIENT: Um, I had my... Oh gosh! Ah, well, when I first became pregnant, I was 16. (therapist affirms) And I had a miscarriage at home...

THERAPIST: Oh goodness! [00:09:44]

CLIENT: ...and I didn’t know what it was, in the toilet, you know. So I picked it up, I wrapped it in tissue, and put it in my pocket. I went to school, all day, and I said, “At the end of the day, I’m going to go see the doctor, let him know what happened.” When I showed it to him, you know, he kind of like giggled a little bit and told me, he said, “This is the fetus.” And that just... I don’t know. It like really blew my mind. I’m thinking, “I walked around school all day long with a baby in my pocket.”

THERAPIST: Oh, Yvette! How did you feel about that?

CLIENT: Oh! (crying) Not good, you know? And...

THERAPIST: It even hurts you now. (client sniffles) What are you feeling?

CLIENT: I just feel like... I should have... I know there’s that word again (chuckles), I just feel like I should have known that, you know. I...

THERAPIST: Where you supposed to have known that?

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know. I think sometimes, I tell myself that if you could put yourself in a predicament, you know, you should... I mean if you’re, if you have enough sense to do something, you should know... I don’t even know the right way to say that. Not the... consequence, well, yeah. Maybe sometimes the consequence that comes, you know, along with it. You know, or even just the education part of it. You know, I feel like, if, okay, I’m having sex. I become pregnant. You know, and if I had a miscarriage, I should have known... [00:11:13]

THERAPIST: Where would you have known that?

CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: So let’s go back. Sixteen, yeah? (client affirms) So I know you had to grow up pretty fast, at ten; but that doesn’t mean your knowledge base caught up with that. So how many 16-year-olds do you know who have sex that don’t know that much about it? Or grown people, for that matter.

CLIENT: A lot!

THERAPIST: So where were you supposed to have known that?

CLIENT: I don’t know! You know, I feel like, okay, if I’m trying to teach my sister something, how can I teach them if I don’t know?

THERAPIST: Because you were ten! Ten! (client affirms) So you were a child! (client affirms) So you had to grow up fast emotionally. (client heartily affirms) Well, yeah, but that doesn’t mean, you know, you had a tenth-grade education at ten years old. Where were you supposed to get that information? See, you know, I hear you have this story of struggle and pain and determination, right? (client affirms) And you hear, “Why didn’t I, why couldn’t I, I should have.” At 16 years old, how were you to know? You know, because I’m sure nobody told you. (client agrees) Not really. Okay. Even, you’re 16, you don’t know what that means. So, do you know about how far along you were? [00:12:29]

CLIENT: Um... It had to be pretty early, in my mind. Maybe... maybe... maybe two.

THERAPIST: Okay. So how would you have known that?

CLIENT: (pause) Hmm. I don’t...

THERAPIST: Where would that have come from?

CLIENT: You know, I wonder, really... I don’t know.

THERAPIST: But you’re smart enough to sort of take the tissue and take it to a doctor.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, I used to steal my mom’s medical card out of (chuckles) her purse to go to the doctor, because she was the type... She was a good mom before the drugs. You know, really good. But then, when she started with the drugs and everything, she started lacking with her responsibilities, you know: wouldn’t take us to the doctor for check-ups, you know, we wouldn’t go to the dentist, you know, things like that. She would feed her boyfriend before she fed her kids, you know. Just, you know, things like that.

I said, well, you know, one time I kissed a boy and I thought I was pregnant, because he put his tongue in my mouth. (therapist affirms) You know, and then I missed my period; it was late. So I went to my aunt, you know, who I can go to for everything, you know, God rest her soul. She told me, “Okay, you know what? We’re going to go to the doctor. I’m going to take you myself.” (therapist affirms) [00:13:49]

I was so glad, because I was scared! You know? Before we could leave out the door, I felt wet and cold and I told her, I said, “Wait, I have to go to the washroom.” I go in the washroom, and I seen it, Jackie says, “Yes, Lord!” (laughs) (therapist affirms) When I told her, she said, “Wait a minute. Let, come here, I need to talk to you,” you know.

She said, “Well, did you really have sex?” And I told her, I said, “No.” I said, “He kissed me.” You know, and then she said, “What do you mean, he kissed you? I said, “That’s what we did. He kissed me and he put his tongue in my mouth, so, you know, I thought that that’s why my period didn’t come on.” I mean, it was, and now that I’m older, I can laugh at it. But...

THERAPIST: But to me, that shows a couple of things, right? One, where were you to have known, because adults (to scare kids from having sex), will often say, “If you kiss somebody, you’ll get pregnant!” Right? (client affirms and laughs) So I’m sure you heard that! [00:14:42]

CLIENT: You’re right! I heard that!

THERAPIST: Yes! Okay, and so you did the smart thing. You told an adult (client responds), right? You knew that if you don’t have your period, it could mean that you’re pregnant. You told an adult, she said, “Let’s go to the doctor” (client affirms), right? When you got your period, she said, “Oh, you don’t know!” (client affirms) But see, where were you to have known? So then, at 16, how would you have known that, and yet you’re smart enough to pick up the tissue, wrap it up, and go to the doctor and say, “What is this?” (client affirms)

So where’s the part that you should have known? (pause) See, you have recognized things that you shouldn’t have known, and I recognize things that you knew, even then. You can’t know something until you know it. (client affirms) Right? So even if you know how babies are made, at 16, that doesn’t mean you sort of put it all together. You’re 16! (client affirms) Managing your mom’s drug issues, taking care of your sisters. Where was there room for you in all that?

CLIENT: (pause) Oh! Where was there room?

THERAPIST: Where was there room for you?

CLIENT: (pause) I didn’t have any. [00:15:45]

THERAPIST: No. So you were supposed to what? Have a college degree by the time you were 20 (client affirms), all the while you were taking care of your sisters and raising your... Yeah, and then having your sons and then, you know, watching your mother deteriorate, and stealing her medical card so you and your siblings could get medical care, and while you’re surviving, what? You’re supposed to do what?

CLIENT: (heavy sigh) I don’t know. Try to breath, I guess! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Right! So what’s my point here?

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t know. Maybe... (pause) I don’t know. (chuckles) It’s like, I have a big cloud up here, and I don’t know.

THERAPIST: But what do you take away from what I’m saying?

CLIENT: That... I know a put a lot of pressure on myself. (therapist responds) That I put myself in a, you know, in a situation where I think I should know, or I should have known certain things, when it was just impossible for me to know. [00:16:53]

THERAPIST: Oh, yes! Say that again, please!

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: It was what?

CLIENT: It was impossible... for me.

THERAPIST: It was impossible. And yet, your survival instinct was so strong that you pulled your family out of the brink, as a young girl, did the job of your mother in raising your sisters, took care of your sons, and now people are grown enough when you finally have time for you. (client affirms) You should be roller-skating!

CLIENT: And I don’t know what to do with myself!

THERAPIST: Good! We’ll talk about it! (both laugh heartily)

CLIENT: I really don’t!

THERAPIST: But... but... you know, so how old are your sons?

CLIENT: Ah, 23 and 19.

THERAPIST: Oh, good! (client laughs) You know, so now is a great time to have... Do you know what the word existential means? (client denies) It kind of... when we look at lives and go, “Whoa! What’s my purpose? What’s my meaning? What /blocked/(inaudible).” (client affirms) Okay, but you finally have time to have what we call an “existential crisis”! Yay! Right? Yours got delayed, because you were so busy, surviving and taking care of everybody else. You finally get to have one! (chuckles) [00:17:58]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah!

THERAPIST: Yes! (both laugh heartily) You earned it!

CLIENT: Wow!

THERAPIST: Yeah, you! (client affirms) So, you know, I don’t... You look at this, and you see where you should have been. I look, and I’m seeing there is no way you could be there. It’s by your own strength, the grace of God, your faith, and your ability to survive. You pulled your family through, and now it’s finally time for you!

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And yet you’re blaming yourself about what you should have done? I don’t... I’m confused!

CLIENT: I... me, too! (both laugh heartily) I am so serious! You know, I think... well... It’s like, I get a lot of people who tell me, saying, “You cannot save the world.” I don’t think that that’s I’m trying to do. I just feel like if someone that I know or... (and I don’t even have to have known you all that long), but if I have the opportunity to meet you, and I think that you’re a really nice person, or whatever, and something was to go wrong with you, I’m willing to help, you know, and... [00:19:11]

THERAPIST: What about you, though? Remember, I asked you, “Where were you in all of this?”

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Where’s your pat on the back for a job well done?

CLIENT: (pause) My GPA? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay. (client affirms) Well, yeah, but see again, so we go back to our first session last week. You’re telling me this painful story, where you, you know, somehow found it, you know, in your schedule to be able to take classes to be an LPN. You are clearly very bright, because there is no way you could have pulled all that together. All right, not just for the LPN, but I mean your whole life, of knowing, right? You’ve got great survival skills! You’ve had to bear more than a human being should have to bear, right.

But, you know, to know to go to the doctor, how to take care of your sisters, when to go to adults, when, how to take care of your mom, all that stuff. Okay, that involves lots of emotional strength and smarts, right? So, again, last week, you know, you are bright, but you haven’t figured out just how bright you are, you know? You know there is something there (client affirms), but you don’t know... [00:20:19]

CLIENT: ...what! Like, how to bring it all together!

THERAPIST: Right! Yes. Exactly. And that’s because you haven’t had a chance to be consistently validated, because school has always been interrupted. (client affirms) Okay? Right. So you finally, you know, take this test and that man, you have that racist incident, where he is, you know, basically...

CLIENT: ...in my ear, yes.

THERAPIST: Yes! In your ear, in your head, criminalizing you, basically positioning (ph) you and it messed with your head!

CLIENT: Oh, yeah! Big time! I mean, it still does!

THERAPIST: Yeah. It’s a very painful thing. And that threw you off.

CLIENT: Oh, it threw me so far off, because... I think what it was, you know, I tried not to let him, you know, consume me like that. (therapist affirms) But at the same time, I said okay, well, I thought it was me. I said, “Well, maybe I need to brush up,” you know and everything. So I gather all my books and everything, and I’m on the computer, and I’m just studying and studying, you know, to the point where now I feel like I can’t even concentrate, you know. Then I said, “Well, is this what I really want?” You know, now I’m, you know, really with the questioning myself and you know stuff like that. [00:21:28]

I called, I said, “Well, what I’m going to do is, I’m not going to take the test over at Ohio anymore, since that’s where I went to school. I’ll try to take it over at Wisconsin.” I called the Wisconsin Department of Regulations and they said, “Well, how long has it been?” I told them, you know, the duration of the time and they said, “Well, you know, it’s been a little too long.” I said, “Well, okay. Is there a refresher course that I can maybe take? Then I’ll take the State Board.” She said, “Well, no. Actually, you’re going to have to re-do the program all over again.” And I said, “Wait a minute! Who has money for that? You know, who has time for that?” Because now I feel like, “Why would I go back?” You know, I would take my time, if I wanted to go back to school, and I’m going to move forward. I just have to find something different to do. You know, and I think that’s how I ended up here. [00:22:23]

THERAPIST: So that cost you. That incident with him and monitoring you during the test cost you confidence, time, energy, and money. (client affirms) But you didn’t quit!

CLIENT: No! I refuse to quit!

THERAPIST: But, yeah. So what is that in you, because you never do.

CLIENT: Um, I think it’s because I know I have the potential to be something just extraordinary!

THERAPIST: And where does that come from for you?

CLIENT: And... I don’t know! (both chuckle) I mean, I think it comes from... I want to make my family proud of me. You know, and I tell you, I think I’ve been to a couple of funerals, and when I hear the obituary, it’s so sad. To me, the obituary is worse than the person that’s laying in the casket.

THERAPIST: Tell me about that.

CLIENT: You know, as the obituary is being read and there are nothing said about the person. You have all these words on this piece of paper and it has no meaning.

THERAPIST: What strikes you about that? [00:23:27]

CLIENT: I feel like God put us here for a purpose. I don’t want to be the type of person that’s just sitting here, taking up space, you’re irrelevant. You know... you’re just here when someone else, they’ve probably been, I don’t know, aborted, just because somebody wanted to take it and use it as a form of birth control and they could have, you know, sat there in that space and did something good with it. You know what I mean?

I mean, I think, I don’t know why I think like that, but I just... I don’t want, when my obituary is being read, and there is nothing said about all the years I’ve been here on this earth, you know, and then you have your children sitting there, your grandchildren, you know, what have you. And they say, “Man! You know, Mama hasn’t done nothing!”

THERAPIST: Well, what is it you want it to say? [00:24:20]

CLIENT: Well, I want it to say that Yvette was hard working, you know, dedicated. She was a good person. You know, she was always there to lend a hand, no matter what the case may have been, you know. She was creative. You know, she devised this and she created that, because we don’t have any of that in our family. So, I’m thinking, “Okay. If it starts with one person, maybe it could be like a trickledown effect? More like a domino effect and it just knock other people in the direction of something good!” You know what I mean? As opposed to people just sitting around, and they’ll be smoking weed, drink all day, you know, stay up all night and sleep all day.

I mean you know, to me, I... and... my sisters, they call me (chuckles) they call me “the philosophier (ph).” I don’t know why, but I’m always telling them, “Look, okay, you know, get up, do something with yourself!” You know. “Don’t just sit here!” I have two of my sisters out of the three are doing so wonderful.

THERAPIST: I remember you telling me that. [00:25:24]

CLIENT: You know, yeah. The one sister, oh my gosh! She is bright! I mean, was honor roll when she graduated high school and everything. I’m just trying to get her to set one foot in college. If you just step through the door, you know, and you’ll feel different, and you’ll look at your surroundings and you know, maybe it would change or spark something, you know...

THERAPIST: There is, you know, there is so much that’s striking me right now. The first part of your obituary is that you are caring, loving, always lending a hand. That’s you now.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: That’s always been you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It sounds like that was you at ten. (client affirms) Okay, so your life has immense value right now.

CLIENT: (pause) In a little.

THERAPIST: Okay, we’ll get into “a little,” right? (client chuckles) Now, I hear the second part of the obituary are the things that you want to do (client affirms) and the things that you want to be (client affirms). Then I heard the third part is, you want to be a role model for your family (client affirms) so that they can see something different. (client affirms) [00:26:32]

So the first part is already on lock (ph). That’s who you are, right? The second part is in motion, because it’s the things that you want to do. (client responds) But you put so much pressure on yourself to be everyone’s role model and to pull everybody through. (client sighs) Tell me what you’re feeling now.

CLIENT: Yeah, because... that’s the truth. (therapist responds) You know and...

THERAPIST: Where does that come from, Yvette?

CLIENT: Well... I feel like, okay, when it... You know, we never know when our demise is, you know, going to come, but when I feel like when mine comes, I want to... Well, I guess I really wouldn’t know anyway, because I’ll be dead, but... I mean, you know, just to know that, even if I was to take sick, you know, and I couldn’t do anything, you know, for anybody anymore, they could take care of themselves. You know what I mean? And... [00:27:34]

THERAPIST: You feel a huge sense of responsibility.(client affirms) You know, I’m wondering... your family... Did you grow up poor? (client affirms) Yes. Right. And your neighborhood?

CLIENT: (sighs) Oh, well, when I was... about... nine, I would say, we moved to what I thought was a pretty nice neighborhood from the projects. So to me, I guess...

THERAPIST: Which projects?

CLIENT: Um... 38th and Ellis, was that...

THERAPIST: 38th and Ellis, Ida B. Wells?

CLIENT: Ida B. Wells.

THERAPIST: Okay, and you moved from Ida B. Wells to... [00:28:18]

CLIENT: Uh-huh, to 87th and Morgan (therapist affirms), so to me, that was a really nice neighborhood, (therapist affirms) you know and everything. Then I began to meet and make, you know, make friends and everything. It was so nice and stuff. You know, we had a big backyard and you know, you could just run around and my mom wasn’t on drugs then. (therapist affirms) You know, so stuff was good and it was like so many of us living in the house, just for so many years. I’d say about maybe 13 people, (therapist affirms) you know.

And it was basically like myself, my sisters, my mom, my aunt, her two boys, my grandma and granddad, my uncle (who would have seizures all the time, because he was an alcoholic then), then another uncle and... oh, yeah, then the other set of cousins, it was like four of them. You know, there was just so many of us. You know, you’d even have to fight for your food and... I mean, you know, and...

THERAPIST: And were these happy memories for you? [00:29:15]

CLIENT: Oh... for the most part, during my early... I would say, when we first moved there, yeah, it was nice. But then, when I turned ten, I can remember it like the back of my hand. It was like 1980... was it 1980? No, like 1982. I could remember, that’s when my mom started with the drugs and stuff. She started slacking off, you know, things that she would do. You know, like giving the girls a bath and stuff like that, you know.

My sister fell down and busted her Achilles tendon and my mom wouldn’t take her to the doctor. So it became infected and all that, you know? Just like... little things here and there and stuff. Then my grandma and granddad would have to argue with her, because she would sneak a boyfriend in. You know, try to feed him before she fed her kids. So then grandma and granddad got tired, because they had to make sure that everybody had money for lunch and, you know, stuff like that. [00:30:20]

THERAPIST: So they picked up the slack.

CLIENT: Oh, they picked up so much of the slack; Oh, my God! Mom and... Grandma and granddad were my mom and dad, you know. That’s why I take such good care of my granddad, because that’s my daddy, you know? My grandmother passed away in 2010 and you know, a lot of things, she was so strong, though, you know. She battled two different types of cancer and nobody knew it, but her and my granddad, her sister and children.

You know, just to see, even when she had the leukemia in the end, you know, she didn’t want any oxygen. This lady was sitting up, trying to... trying to conduct a conversation with my cousin, and she couldn’t even breathe! You know, she was holding herself up with her arms and, I’m like, “No! Grandma!” You know, I just started putting her shoes on and, without thinking, I should have never moved her. I should have just dialed 911. But it’s like my instinct just kicked in and something just said, “Get her to the hospital! You can move faster than an ambulance. You have to first wait until they get here and she needs to go now,” you know. I ended up having to do CPR on her, on Easter Sunday. [00:31:34]

THERAPIST: Oh, Yvette!

CLIENT: Yeah, because, Oh, my God! Trying to get her to the car and her legs gave out. We put her on the couch. I told them, “Take off everything at the top, to give her some air,” you know, just... And she just stopped breathing. You know, so yeah, then we did the CPR, she came back and I thanked God, the ambulance was walking right through the door. You know, and...

THERAPIST: So, you saved her life in that moment?

CLIENT: Yes! And I thought she was mad at me. You know, because I remember she would say, “Well, you know my mom, when she passed, she wanted to die around all of her family.” That Easter Sunday, a lot of us was there, you know. It’s like she held on for certain things, and I felt like that Sunday, she waited for me to get there, you know, because she was trying to give me these papers that the hospital gave her before I took her to the hospital. I knew she didn’t want to be... revived. She said that. But then, here I go, and I’m doing CPR! [00:32:34]

THERAPIST: Yeah, but in some ways, how could you not?

CLIENT: I know!

THERAPIST: You know, could you really not??

CLIENT: You know, and then, well, we went to the hospital, she was able to still communicate, she just couldn’t talk. She was on a ventilator, but she could hear you, and she’d nod her head and everything. I had to ask her, I said, “Mom, are you mad at me for doing the CPR?” She shook her head “no,” and it was like a big relief off of my chest, because I said, “God! I did what she didn’t want me to do.” And I never defy my grandparents, you know, or...

THERAPIST: Okay! Wow! Let’s stop. (client sighs) You are beating yourself up for saving her life, just for the moment, because that’s instinct. You know, she, in some ways, taught you that. (client affirms) Her, you know, she’s trying to talk to your cousin, and she can’t talk. So her fighting spirit to live... what were you supposed to do?

CLIENT: I know! That’s why I... I couldn’t just sit there and not do anything. You know, everybody, out of everybody in the house, everybody! Nobody knew CPR! Nobody knew what, and I just kept thanking God, I said, “I’m just so glad that I was there...”

THERAPIST: Goodness, Yvette! [00:33:45]

CLIENT: You know, because they said, “Man, ‘Cuz,’ you just went right into mo’ and you saved her!” You know, and I’m thinking to myself, “But out of all the people there, that’s here, nobody knew anything!” I had to tell them, “Somebody grab Dad, and sit him down!” You know, I had to like navigate everything.

THERAPIST: So you had to manage the family while you were doing CPR! (client affirms) Have you ever stopped (because these are all, what you’re describing from your miscarriage, to your early pregnancies, to your own surgeries, to saving your grandma), these are all traumas. Do you know what a trauma is?

CLIENT: Uh... if I could sum up trauma in one word, I would say... Well, I guess I can’t do it in one word! You know, but, if I had to pick one, I would have to say... Tiring! (chuckles) I mean, it’s, you know, it’s... it’s pain. [00:34:50]

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah. It’s now, it’s, but it’s, these are life-changing, deeply painful events that forever change who you are and leave their mark on you. You’ve had them, one after the other after the other after the other after the other; which is one, why you’re exhausted; two, why you’re always in crisis mode, right? Because you’ve described these sorts of... You came in today and described these incidents, and you’re sort of like, “Well, that’s kind of the way it always is.” I’m imagining that that is exactly true. That’s the way it’s been since you were eight or nine (client affirms), and it hasn’t stopped.

CLIENT: No!

THERAPIST: And now that it looks like things may be slowing down a bit, you’re like, “What’s happening?”

CLIENT: Yeah! I mean, it’s like... Okay, then I’m thinking, “Well, the kids are grown (chuckles) now!” I mean, you know, so really, what do I do with myself? And then, like I told you before, I find myself, when I got here, the environment is just so different. You know, and the people, you know? The positive-ness. You know, that type of vibe, and it makes me feel like I can do anything. I’m ready to almost try like, almost anything! (therapist affirms) Not even knowing what it is that I really... really want to do for myself, but just to, just go with the flow, and whatever door opens, I want to step in, as long as it’s positive, and some good can come out of it, you know. That’s what I’m willing to try. [00:36:23]

THERAPIST: But in some ways, what you put into the environment, hopefully in some ways, comes back to you. You walked through the door here with that attitude, and your talent and gifts, and that’s come back to you. (client affirms) Yes, but if you had walked through with a different attitude, that wouldn’t, you know, so you talked last week about a professor who said, “I got my eye on you!” Because she knows that you can do it! Yes! How embracing that felt, because life hasn’t always done that for you.

CLIENT: Yeah! That felt so good!

THERAPIST: But that started with you. (pause) You have a hard time with that, I see.

CLIENT: (pause) Maybe. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What are you feeling right now?

CLIENT: (pause) I feel like I’m very... (crying, sigh) I feel like I’m very proud of myself, you know, because I’m at a (sniffles), I’m at a place that I’ve never been in before, and... [00:37:29]

THERAPIST: And that place is?

CLIENT: A place of goodness, you know. I feel like it’s just serene, it’s calming. I feel like... for so many years, I didn’t know who I was. (crying) (pause) And now I’m getting a chance to see that there is more to me than, you know, what I was doing before. It’s so much more to me and things that I never thought I could do, I see that it’s possible.

THERAPIST: Yes! Yes! Abso/stops/, well, not only that, but I think you underestimate the impact of your environment on you, you know. Growing up in poverty, right? Growing up black. (client sniffles) Growing up where you’re surrounded by drugs and a lack of role models has a huge, huge impact, huge impact, right? So, for example, my parents were teachers. You’re familiar with the local high schools? (client affirms) Okay, my dad and mom taught there. [00:38:50]

CLIENT: Oh, wow! Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay. But they were teachers, so you know, it was always assumed I would go to college. I didn’t earn that, right? (client affirms) Now, what’s the difference between you and I? (pause) I had all that... Go ahead, go ahead, sorry.

CLIENT: Determination! (therapist denies) I guess...

THERAPIST: No! No!

CLIENT: No?

THERAPIST: No! What, I’m more determined than you?

CLIENT: Well, it seems that, maybe we feel like we have to follow suit? It’s like... Like you said, your parents were both teachers (therapist affirms), so I would assume that you felt you had to, like you said, you had to go to college and you had to do the things that...

THERAPIST: It was assumed I would go. See you, you know, I want to go back to the first thing you said, determination. We’re the same age, right? Same racial background, right? But you had all of these significant things you had to take care of, from the time you were a little, little girl. I got a chance just to be ten. You had to take care of mom, help your grandparents, watch your sisters, deal with crisis and trauma. That has a huge, huge impact and it’s unfair, right? [00:40:15]

But if we would have switched places, you are no less determined than I am, and you’re certainly not less smart than I am, not in any, any way, not in any way, right? But the... no! Not in any way! (client chuckles) Okay, but the difference is, right, you grew up in an environment that was oppressing, scary, unpredictable, deeply painful, (client affirms) right? And you didn’t get a chance to be a kid, right? (client affirms) I didn’t have to deal with those burdens. So when those things are lifted, right? And you just get a chance to be a kid, it’s a world of difference, and yet... you’re still here, you’re still very smart, very determined, and you get a chance now. [00:41:09]

It’s unfair, but you keep underestimating the impact that all of these very tough, traumatic life circumstances have had on your life, so I do think we have to do some trauma work. Yet, in spite of it all, you have this positive attitude and amazing strength. You keep sort of, you kind of recognize it, but not really. It’s kind of like, “Oh, yeah, yeah. That’s the way it has to be, so now I’m here, and I’m behind!” And I’m like, “Are you serious??”

CLIENT: Yeah, I (chuckles), I really feel like I am so far behind!

THERAPIST: No, Yvette! Because what was the choice you were going to make? Right? What, leave your family behind? (client denies) No! And you took great care of them. It’s time; everybody’s grown, though, now! (client confirms everybody) So, it’s time that everybody takes care of themselves, and you’ve been pretty instrumental in giving them some tools. It is your turn. It is your turn.

CLIENT: And, you know, I feel like that, and I tell myself that, “This is my turn now.” I want to keep that determination, you know. I can’t let that slip through my fingers. I’ve always been competitive, you know. I thank God for JROTC in high school and for a teacher I will never forget, you know, Kelly Church. [00:42:23]

She was the Head of the Math Department and she saw something in me that I just thought wasn’t there, but I thought maybe she could see... pieces... Oh, how could I say it? Maybe she could see that I was bringing some of the problems from home to school...

THERAPIST: Which anybody would do.

CLIENT: I would come to school hungry, you know and stuff. She would have these huge, (chuckles) huge candy bars, you know. I said, “Dog! I want one of those!” But I couldn’t bring myself to ask. You know, so... I said, “Hmm.” I said, “What do you have to do to earn one of those candy bars?” She was like, “You see that brainteaser up there on the board? You have to solve it.” And I couldn’t get it. I just could not get it. I said, “Dog! I’m not smart enough to do nothing!” You know? [00:43:20]

One day I was so hungry, I sat there and I said, “I’m not leaving! (therapist chuckles) I’m going to solve this friggin’ teaser!” You know? When I got it, she was like, “Pick any one you want!” I said, “Wow!” I said, “That’s all I had to do! It will take me the whole class period (chuckles), but...” You know... Eventually, I would practice and practice and I would solve those brainteasers (snapping fingers) you know, and...

THERAPIST: Get another candy bar! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Yeah! You know? And then, I was, I think my grade in her class was like a D? No, close to an F. I believe I did get an F, you know, a couple of times. I told myself, I said, “Naw, you can’t get F’s. You can’t make it in life with F’s,” you know? So, I said “Okay.” I had, well I think she noticed that she had to find a different way to work with me with the math. The way that she did it, oh man, I could get it (snapping fingers) just like that, you know? Those D’s and F’s became B’s and now A’s, to the point that I was doing it on the computer for fun! [00:44:20]

You know, and then she gave me a job. She said, “How would you like to work for me? You tutor Algebra, and I’ll pay you $50 every two weeks.” I looked! Me? You know, and I was like, “Yeah! I’ll do it!”

THERAPIST: So when you said you couldn’t do math, that wasn’t true.

CLIENT: (pause) I guess not!

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: You know... Well, see, it appeared to be so, because I was having a hard time with, I guess...

THERAPIST: So, the end results are like, is you, it’s always you. If something goes wrong, it’s you. (client affirms) Even though people look at you, in ten minutes of interacting with you, and recognize how talented you are.

CLIENT: Yeah, but why can’t I see that in that minutes? (both chuckle) I mean, you know...

THERAPIST: We’re going to get to that! I just, you know, I am wondering out loud here, if you have a learning disability.

CLIENT: (whispers) I was wondering that! [00:45:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Let’s look at some resources. I’m going to refer you to Sally Rubin. She’s the Director of Disabilities. You know, I have family members who have learning disabilities. You know, they’re very common and typically, the profile of someone who has a learning disability is somebody who is very bright, who learns differently.

You know, you know dyslexia, where you see words backwards and things like that? There are different kinds of learning disabilities, but it doesn’t mean you’re not smart. It means you learn differently. I myself, Lord knows, I’ve had so many struggles with math. I don’t think it’s due to a learning disability (client chuckles), I just struggled, struggled, struggled, struggled with math. It can be a painful experience, but you’re very smart. This has nothing to do with not being smart. You just learn differently. Once you figure out the way that you learn... and some of you already knows this. Okay, you’ve had some very successful school experiences. Once you figure out how you learn, right? Then you can maximize how you learn, as opposed to learning in a way that doesn’t work for you. So, it’s not a, I don’t, you know, I guess we can look more into it. It doesn’t sound like a memory issue. [00:46:35]

CLIENT: It doesn’t?

THERAPIST: No. Right? And you know what? If you struggle with memory, you can write things down.

CLIENT: I can write things down, and then... you know, okay. I write a lot of poems. It’s like, whatever comes to my mind, I just like to have a pencil and piece of paper, I just like write it down. Now, if you asked me, “Yvette, can you say one of those?” Because my cousin just asked me this over the weekend. He said, “You write a lot of poetry and stuff, and I like it!” He said, “Could you recite one of your poems?” I looked at him and I just fell down laughing! You know, I said, “You know, I write the stuff and can’t remember what I wrote!”

THERAPIST: But why do you take that in, that there is something wrong with you because you can’t remember what you wrote? I can’t remember what I said five minutes ago!

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yes! I can’t... If I... You know, if I wrote a paper on something, I can’t remember what I wrote! But if you asked me to look at it, I can look at it and go, “Oh, yeah! I remember this! This is kind of the main idea.” (client repeatedly affirms) If you do a lot of...

CLIENT: That’s normal? (both laugh) I mean... [00:47:38]

THERAPIST: Yes, as far as I’m concerned. I mean, we should look into the learning disability issue, but why do you put it on you, that you’re supposed to remember every word that you ever wrote?

CLIENT: You know, I think because... okay, I’ve seen people and they can actually... (lowers voice) Well, you know, but maybe that’s just teething (ph).

THERAPIST: (hearty laughter) You make me laugh! I mean...

CLIENT: I mean, because... (laughs)

THERAPIST: I can’t remember what I said two sentences... and students are like, you know, “Can you please repeat what you said?” I say, “No!” Someone in the class will say, “You said this.” I say, “Thank you!” I can’t remember what I just said or what I wrote or...

CLIENT: Dr. Peterson, you’re just being nice (therapist repeatedly denies) to me, I think, because...

THERAPIST: Yvette, I’m really not! (both laugh) I’m not that nice! I’m not... no! I’m serious!

CLIENT: Really??

THERAPIST: Yvette, before you got here, you see that stack of papers that I was just grading? If you asked me what I was grading, I can remember who I was grading, but I can’t remember what I was reading!

CLIENT: Really? [00:48:36]

THERAPIST: No! No! (client responds) And why do I have to? Why do you have to remember your poems? If someone wants to hear you read a poem, just go get your poem and read it off the piece of paper! Why do you have to know that?

CLIENT: Oh, I, you know, I always felt that if you wrote it, you should know what you wrote, right?

THERAPIST: Well, you know you wrote it! (client affirms) Why do you have to memorize it?

CLIENT: Yeah! Why?

THERAPIST: Girl, we’re going to talk!

CLIENT: Oh, golly!

THERAPIST: But, why would you, what...?? (dismissive sound, “pffft!”)

CLIENT: You know, I always thought that maybe (therapist denies), and so that’s why I’m thinking, Okay, my memory isn’t... (chuckles) because, you know, I, like I told you, I could read something and I would have to read it again. Then I’d say, “Okay. Read it slow.” And if I read it too slow, it’s too hard for me to grasp initially (ph).

THERAPIST: Okay, because what are you trying to, when you read something, what are you reading for?

CLIENT: To... I guess to comprehend what it’s saying. [00:49:32]

THERAPIST: Okay, but, you know, and we’ll talk about this. You read for the main idea.

CLIENT: For the main idea.

THERAPIST: Okay, so if I, you know, let’s say I teach a whole class, 16 weeks. Here is what I have learned. What do my students remember? So if you said, “What did you learn in that class, over 16 weeks?” My students could you tell you what they learned in five minutes. So I teach to that five minutes, because nobody remembers, “Oh, this class was this, and this class was this.” No, they don’t remember that. They summarize. You remember five or ten minutes of content. So you read for the main idea, you don’t read to memorize something, unless that’s what you have to do. (client affirms)

So you, going back to your solving the math problem. You know, some teachers, in the way that they teach, they teach in rigid ways. You have to do it these ways. Okay, and don’t ask me about math, but... But see, the thing is, you came up with the right answer. Quite possibly, a better teacher would go, “Okay, Yvette. Go back through with me and tell me how you got this answer.” As long as you could describe how you got the answer, who the h*** cares? [00:50:39]

CLIENT: That was my point exactly.

THERAPIST: But Miss, what’s the woman’s name, with the candy bars?

CLIENT: Uh, Miss Church.

THERAPIST: Okay. She didn’t care about your steps. (client agrees) She cared that you got the right answer, (client confirms) and knew how you did it. So she found a way to teach to you, that you could understand. The rigid math teacher is like, “Well, no, it’s wrong, because you didn’t do it my way.” Okay, well, that’s ridiculous! That’s bad teaching! That’s not bad Yvette! But you always go back to you as the result. (client affirms) We got some work to do, and I’m excited about it.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: You know, if I was reading a map... I know how to read maps, but sometimes, for me to get the right direction, I have to flip the map upside down. (therapist responds) You know? Then I could tell you, “Oh, shoot! Turn right, right here, you know. Then turn left; you’ll be there,” you know.

THERAPIST: Do you see this picture of the map in your head? [00:51:34]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You’re a visual learner.

CLIENT: You know, and...

THERAPIST: You have to see things?

CLIENT: I have to see things, and then sometimes, because I was trying that with myself (therapist affirms). I said, “Well, okay, maybe I’m auditory, then.” (therapist affirms) You know, because I’m really trying to figure out what my problem is, you know? I said, “Okay.” Auditory... and I guess it all depends on how interesting something is, you know, because sometimes it seemed like I could hear it, and I could remember, you know. But sometimes I feel like, “Okay, if I see it, I can remember.” But then, I’m thinking, “Wait a minute! Which is it?”

THERAPIST: Well, it could be, it’s, usually it’s a combination of both. Okay, you can read a map? (client affirms) I can’t read a map! Don’t even give me a map! Don’t give me a map. Don’t give me a graph, don’t give me a map. (client chuckles) I can’t, in any of my teaching or learning, I never look at the map, I never look at the graph.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: It makes absolutely no sense to me. It confuses me. So if I were to ask you for directions, you say, “Let me draw you a map,” I’ll say, “Don’t draw me a map. Write me the words, or tell me and I’ll write it out.” (client affirms) Okay? Because I’m not a visual learner. That’s useless. I get confused. No, I can’t read a map, I’m not kidding. MapQuest is the best thing that ever happened, because I just print out the directions. [00:52:46]

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: I don’t look at the map part. (client affirms) But you are a visual learner, so you create in your head a picture of what it looks like, okay? I can’t do that. (pause) (client responds) Not in any way. I’m not kidding!

CLIENT: So... (pause) Okay, I thought it had to be one or the other.

THERAPIST: Nope! It’s a combination of many things.

CLIENT: Ohhh.

THERAPIST: You have this idea, kind of as we end today, let me summarize this. You have this idea of who you’re supposed to be and how you’re supposed to learn and it has to be this way, or you’re not smart. That’s not true, and it’s not how your mind works. Your mind works in some amazing ways, but you have to figure out exactly how your mind works, and then play to that, learn that way, right? So, I know that I cannot, one, I can’t do math in my head unless it has to do with money, and then I’m pretty good at it. [00:53:51]

CLIENT: I’m thinking maybe that’s how I am! I’m... (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yes. Because money is real. The word problems of going to the store to pick up...

CLIENT: I hate the word problems!

THERAPIST: Yeah, but if you make it about money, it’s easy for you, right? So somehow, you’re able to learn all of this medical stuff, apply it in a crisis, know that getting medical care for your siblings is appropriate, develop particular life skills, all right? Understand that school is a value, go to school. This speaks to somebody who is very bright! Extremely bright, as well as motivated and competitive. These are great, great skills. That’s who you are! That’s who you are!

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Yes! Okay? So now we just have to add the component of, how do you learn, right? You know some of how you learn, because you know you learn. Get rid of these ideas of, you know, you’re not smart if you can’t recite a poem from memory. Who cares? You don’t have to recite no poem from memory! You just pull out the poem you wrote and read it! [00:55:01]

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, this makes so much sense! (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah! So how are you doing, as we end today?

CLIENT: Um, I think I’m doing okay. I brought something I wanted to show you.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And this is just like a part of what, you know, things that I do, like when I have spare time? I remember I was telling you about it. Okay. This is like a small little portfolio I want to start, it’s an idea that I came up with.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I don’t, I know that it’s not...

THERAPIST: Whoa! So, wait. (high-pitched, surprised) Did you do this? (client affirms) Good Lord! (client chuckles) You have a mission statement... (client affirms) Okay, and this is just on your own, not for a class.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. That’s an idea that I came up with, that I would like to... get critiqued and, you know, have it professionalized, where I could sell the idea, probably. And then I have another idea... [00:56:19]

THERAPIST: Wait. What, tell me what it is.

CLIENT: Yo-yo’s (ph) for women. It’s, you know, I see a lot of women, they ride around in these cars, they look like cars for men, because they’re trying to feminize the car, but it’s just impossible. (therapist affirms) You know. You could have the most gorgeous woman stepping out of this masculine-looking car. So I said, “Well, what if I could come up with something that’s different. You know, for women.” I don’t really want to...

THERAPIST: You did a SWOT analysis... (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That’s awesome! (both laugh) Oh, my gosh!

CLIENT: Yeah. Because, see I came up with that idea because I was helping my cousin, before I even started here, I was helping her with an assignment she had to do, because she’s in Human Resource Management? (therapist affirms) They gave me an idea to create...

THERAPIST: A business! (client affirms) Girl! (both laugh)

CLIENT: So, I mean...

THERAPIST: That’s impressive! [00:57:16]

CLIENT: I don’t know if it’s... You know. And I printed out a copy of my book to bring to you, and I left it in the other folder. I thought I put it in here.

THERAPIST: I will be excited to see that next time.

CLIENT: So, I’m going to bring that, if I remember next time.

THERAPIST: You know, you have a mind that never quits, don’t you?

CLIENT: Uh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Good! We’re going to have fun with that!

CLIENT: Oh, good! Okay! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Yes! That’s impressive! You know, I know people who know a lot more than I do about that, and so I’m going to refer you to... I mean...

CLIENT: But I like you! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I want to see it, I want to see it! No, no, no, no, no! No, no, no! I mean, like you and I will work together, but like for if you want a critique of that, right? Let me turn this off... If you want...

END TRANSCRIPT