TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So what’s going on?

CLIENT: A lot. Geez, where to start. So my birthday was in September. So a few days before my birthday we’d just been talking, (unclear) and me, back and forth.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And then he told me, the conclusion he came to, the way to fix things, was to get a divorce. And, right – you know, like he just needs to start fresh because he’d felt like he’d gotten trapped in it and how – he felt like he’d become trapped in it and the only way was that be able to refresh and he had to be able to choose me and all this stuff and going through all that. And then like three weeks ago we saw our pastor for the first time and I like the fact that my pastor brought up like even before we got married, no matter what the circumstances were, like you chose to get her pregnant, you chose to be with her regardless, you wanted to marry her before all this happened, so you’re not trapped.

THERAPIST: Yeah, there’s no trapped here.

CLIENT: Yeah, well he was just trying – because (unclear) was saying like the relationship I was in, we were on break, and right before I got pregnant I had seen somebody else and I slept with him and he didn’t find out until like a year after we had gotten married and he felt like he was duped and all this and I was like, valid feelings for you but you weren’t realistically trapped. Like you still, I don’t know, but he will try to make the point, well I don’t know if I knew that I would have chosen to marry you and all this stuff. So him dealing with that and his biggest thing now being every single day is a struggle for him just like finding the energy to want to stay so we can’t even move forward. Like, okay, let’s work on our friendship. Let’s do that. And it’s like feeling like there’s no building blocks so it’s kind of like we start fresh every day which is hard because we can be intimate or something like that and we can have a good day but then the next day I have no gauge of where he’s at at all, like he’s back to square one every single day. So like the other day, this has been going on three months of this.

THERAPIST: This is hard on you both.

CLIENT: Yeah, so that was the biggest thing and then I noticed the last month like ever since the last month I’ve been cutting out caffeine. Like I haven’t been doing anything but I’ve still been having the panic attacks and they’re like a lot more and I know, especially when I night drive, I’m on edge already at night and like I can’t really control my – like close my eyes and breathe as much when I’m driving at night so it’s been a lot and like I know I’m stressed but I don’t see the stress going anywhere so I need some new coping techniques because what I’m doing obviously does not work anymore and I don’t necessarily want to go the medication route like Xanax or anything like that. Like I’d rather try to figure out holistically how to deal with it.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:02:39]

CLIENT: So that was kind of I think –

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That’s a catch up of what’s been going on.

THERAPIST: Well that’s a lot and how are you dealing emotionally with all of this?

CLIENT: Nuh. Like some days it’s better than others. Like some days it’s like – like spiritually I’m in a good place like my heart – my head knows that to do but it’s like getting my heart to agree with it because I know that okay, like I need to move forward because regardless of what he does I still have to live. I still have to take care of me, I still have to take care of all my things, take care of my daughter, do all that. And I still have to be in a healthy place but I still can’t change the fact that even just the fact that I only go to school and (unclear) two days a week I’m still home most of the time. So of course, you live with somebody there’s a lot of memories at home so I’m doing my best to be honest with him or what have you so if I just start crying or something like most of the time I’ll go into the bathroom to cry and if I’ve been there a while he’ll go, are you crying? You know, what’s going on? “And instead of me just saying nothing I’ll say, well this triggered me so this is going on and he’ll just like say, okay, so to his credit he listens and is open to hearing and talking about it but he’s like well, I don’t really know what to say, I can’t really do anything about it. But at least he’s trying to listen and stuff like that but, yeah, it’s very touch and go because there can be stuff like that that will just set me off emotionally and I’ll just like, I’ll deal with the emotions and if that means cry, I’ll cry and I’m like, okay, we’ll move forward. But try not to be consumed, like spend the whole day like, oh, I miss him and we have this relation, blah, blah, blah, and not try to be consumed with it. But still like It’s hard because I say, okay, I know I’ve got to keep moving, but I still have these emotions and like even like I pray all the time and say like, okay, God, you have to help me deal with these emotions because I know that you’re telling me to keep going but I still feel this. And so I still have to deal with what I’m feeling but I don’t want it to lay dormant and be a huge issue later. [00:04:37]

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, I can only imagine that – how painful and difficult it would be – you’re going along, going along and you think you’re working towards something and he’s like nope, I want a divorce. Well, now the family’s in crisis.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And now we’re in crisis, we’re in crisis. You go to the pastor and the pastor says, no, you weren’t trapped. You get some hope and you’re going along and going along and going along and then all of a sudden there’s another – and this is my guess of where the panic attacks come from because you keep getting the rug ripped out from under you – in fundamental ways, not in – in ways that are life changing, right? So you are living your life on a fault line and wouldn’t that cause panic because tomorrow he could say – he keeps saying, I’m done. No I’m not. Yes I am. No I’m not. And you recognize that he’s speaking from an honest place because he doesn’t know where he’s at. He keeps – he’s working it through like you’re working it through but in the meantime it’s torturous. You know, I did not expect you to say that. I did not expect to hear you say that at all and I think that is my point. So my first reaction is – (sharp intake of breath) – you know, and I would bet that’s what you’re living all the time. Between the, we make love all the time and hold hands and the next day – (sharp intake of breath) – and you know, in some ways I get his perspective. I do. But in some ways it is a bit unfair because you were with someone when you guys were on a break and when he had broken up with you?

CLIENT: Yeah, we both – it was an agreed upon break but his idea was, okay getting ourselves ready because we were coming back to each other and wanting to get married.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And there was really no talk about seeing other people because I guess he didn’t view it as an option. For me it just kind of happened.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: In that, but his main deal wasn’t even that but was I think waiting so long to tell him. But for me – and I told him like, honestly, I was afraid and if I had told you that and especially once I got pregnancy like a month later, like yeah, well what if you would have left me high and dry? And he feels like I kind of took that choice away from him and I got that point, but I was like well from where I was saying now, well it’s already done with like here we are now. [00:06:50]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And even once I told him, he left. He went – drove about two hours away and then he came back. You know, for him he didn’t know it but he was kind of manifesting it, he was done at that point.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But you chose to come back so even from that stand point he did have a choice because you could have been done but you did come back. You chose to work this through and you know, but his point I guess is that it’s kind of too little, too late on my part. Well, now you’re getting everything I’ve been saying, now you’re getting that this is what I’ve been trying to do and stuff like that. So now you get it, but now it’s hard to get that motivation to want to try because for so many years I’ve been trying and you weren’t really trying as hard as me. Which again is a valid point but I’m now trying to go through it like okay, yeah, so I slept for the past two years but I’m doing it now.

So you can choose to go with me on this journey now and move forward and we – you know that’s one thing – we’ve been married almost three years and we’ve been together about six and a half years. So that’s a long span of time as being young adults and we’ve together most of our adult life but in the span of thing if we’re blessed to live to about 80, we still have a whole span of time to do it the right way.

THERAPIST: It’s just that you guys are at different places in the journey.

CLIENT: Yeah. He’s just at the point of even wanting to begin trying because like and it’s hard because I’m just like, if you would just try you would open yourself up to a lot of what I’m trying to give now and it would be an easier process for him but I’m also trying to make sure I’m putting myself in his shoes and seeing – I get it why it’s hard to try.

THERAPIST: Are you sure he’s not open to “couples”? [00:08:36]

CLIENT: Well, I think that’s what we’re doing with our pastor and so that’s what we’re going to be doing there. And I know when he’s expressed that, he’s wanted to do it with our pastor.

THERAPIST: Fine. Fine. Good. Okay. But I think that you know, you and I can always work, but this is a couple issue because you guys are, I mean, each individual brings their own issues, but you guys are at different places in the process and so it’s really about getting together with what the process looks like. So, you know, I’m glad you’re going to your pastor. Do you feel like the pastor hears you both? And he’s doing a good job?

CLIENT: Well, yes. And like another reason why it’s more, it’s already hard not to get him to go there because his schedule is so crazy. He’s just moved from Milwaukee and now he’s at a store in Ohio with even better commute but it’s just crazy and we’re going into the holiday season and he’s in retail so it’s already to the point where we’ve only see him once and he wants to see us two weeks later and now it’s gone to three weeks because he just hasn’t had a free day to do it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it’s already going to be tough just trying to get him there, but I think, yeah, I definitely went into it as honestly as possible. Like I went into (unclear) like bam, this is the issue, you know why he’s feeling like he wants a divorce, because he feels like there was adultery on my part, and like this, that – so I kind of like laid it all out to see what it sounds like. I kind of went into it like this is going to be our only session like that I want to get as much input from him as possible. I think he did a good job of like hearing us both, like hearing what (unclear) had to say, what I had to say and kind of seeing where we were at.

THERAPIST: What keeps him in it now?

CLIENT: What? He has an obedience to God. And being like open to what God told him, so he’s – and also I think the fact that, I think that for me there’s a lot of indifference on his part, so it’s easy to sit in that indifference because if you’re not really passionate about it you can just sit there and exist and just go through day to day life forever. Really.

THERAPIST: Are you angry at him?

CLIENT: Am I angry? I think more frustrated because I’m like, if you would just try, you know, then you could see that it doesn’t have to stay this way. And it’s like more hurt, too, because it’s just like, yes I guess that you’re upset but it’s like does – it isn’t like all these years were bad. Like I know we might have different perspectives on our relationship but I wasn’t horrible so there’s nothing in me that reaches out to you, like there have been times – right – it’s been a long time since we talked, so when in like probably shortly after I stopped seeing you and up until the point of all this, there would be days where I was literally begging him, just please just be with me. Like, and I think – okay, for me it was hard because I’d gone as low as possible and I had no response from you like I was literally begging you, almost on my knees begging you like, please, just be with me, please just try. Like we can do this and all this, and all that meant nothing to you. [00:11:18]

THERAPIST: I don’t think it meant nothing to him.

CLIENT: No, but just the fact that he showed no emotion, he had no response to it. He was just like, sorry.

THERAPIST: He did. He’s still there.

CLIENT: But – he’s not – because I honestly don’t think it’s because of me.

THERAPIST: You know what? I think you have something to do with it. I think it is obedience to God and it is his values. He also cares about you. He’s so angry at you and so hurt by you and the way to hurt you back is by appearing indifferent.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But I don’t care how religious a man is. He is not going to stay with a woman and remain faithful to her if there’s not something else there.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It doesn’t happen that way. So he does care. I don’t think that when he – his anger and feelings of betrayal and being duped and feeling like a fool and feeling deeply hurt, he’s not over it and unfortunately, you know, this always happens and this is where you guys are out of synch and you’re going to be out of synch for a while. Marriage is like a marathon and you guys just got through the first gate and as you’ve said – it’s lifelong, it’s life long, but you’re just out of synch. But he can’t hurry up, he won’t hurry up, but he stood there and heard you, right? And he didn’t walk out. And he wasn’t cruel. He could have been really cruel, but he wasn’t really cruel. He was indifferent and stonewalled and a lot of times that’s men’s way of trying to calm themselves down. Their blood pressure sometimes goes up in any kind of conflict situation and so they stonewall. But – and I’m not trying to give you false hope, but I am saying that sometimes if you look at his behavior and not his words, he goes to see the pastor with you. He goes to see the pastor with you. He’s honest that he doesn’t know.

CLIENT: And that’s how I’m trying to look at it.

THERAPIST: And he said I September that he wanted to get a divorce and has not filed for divorce yet, right?

CLIENT: Right. And we renewed our lease.

THERAPIST: Okay, so I guess all I’m saying to you is in this painful moment, and you’ve said, look – I’ve humbled myself to you, we will have to keep on doing it because I’m sure he’s looking for some assurance. He’s still in his own hurt. And you’re in yours, but you haven’t given up and he hasn’t given up and it’s a very, very painful time. But you know, it doesn’t matter what his religious values are. That, by itself, is not going to keep someone trying. And for him, trying right now, is staying there. Trying for you is going to therapy and trying to work it out and trying to talk to him, but for him, maybe all he can manage is being there. And maybe tomorrow, being there looks like having a conversation and maybe three months from now it looks like voluntarily holding your hand, but I don’t see him being deliberately cruel. Have you? Okay. So I guess if I were to sort of give you something today it would be – I don’t see it as the only thing keeping him there is his obedience to his wedding vows. I think it is important, and thank God – if those vows didn’t mean something for us, you know – that would be problematic. But it’s more than that. He does care. He’s just really angry and really, really hurt. And I don’t know if it’s going to work out. I mean, I don’t know if any marriage is going to work out. You know. But that’s not the way someone who hates your guts, or someone who wants to be done, someone who really wants to be done is done – even if they stay right there, is done. And that’s not what done looks like. What do you think about what I’m saying? [00:15:36]

CLIENT: I think it’s true. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It doesn’t change the feelings of the process though.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: And as you said, it’s the process. You’re in the process and the process is crappy. It’s like swimming in crap. It’s bad. But that’s where you’re at you know, and you can’t be anywhere that you’re not. That’s where you’re at. And now you have to go through the process and you already know this, deeply and honestly. And I’m glad he’s telling you where he’s at so at least you know. And so, couples who have been through this, what you’re going through now, who face it honestly, it’s still very painful but you’re dealing with the pain now as opposed to let’s say you guys do stay together and five years from now you didn’t deal with it so here it is again. This is the painful part. So if you need to cry, let him see you cry. It deeply hurts you. It gives you panic attacks. It’s serious for you. It’s who you see yourself being. He’s a huge piece of your life. I wouldn’t blow that off at all. I would let him see all of it and not as guilt or to manipulate, but because your pain is real and you want him to be your husband and a part of your life and you are sorry for what you’ve done. Okay. So he just has to – you guys have to learn to trust one another again. And he will not hurry up and get over it. You will think it’s over and then it will come back. And you will think it’s over and then it will come back. What changes is the process of how you guys deal with it. Hopefully, it gets better through time and through what your pastor can teach you. What are you thinking about what I’m saying, Amy?

CLIENT: I agree with it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Any kind of thoughts and feelings behind that?

CLIENT: No, I mean it’s all stuff like that I know, but it’s like getting the head and heart to agree because I know it and can say like, yeah I know that it’s a process but it’s still very day by day and it’s very, well how do I get through the day and how do I get through today and just dealing with it.

THERAPIST: Right. But I think it’s just going to be day by day for a while. Right. And you know, that’s what any kind of breech in trust and all kinds of breech in trust in all kinds of infidelity – that’s just one. But you know, have you talked to him about any background factors in your life that may have contributed to that? Does he know any of that stuff? And does he see that as a part of this? [00:18:21]

CLIENT: I don’t know. I can’t – like I never asked for sympathy because I wasn’t trying to make excuses for anything.

THERAPIST: It’s not an excuse. But it is a reason. It does add context and what – I guess if he was sitting here, I guess what I would want for him to get would be for him to understand when you’ve had significant people in your life from the time you are a child go and it’s completely outside of your control, when he says, it’s over, I’m leaving, it’s going to send you into a panic because it’s going to bring back all of those times. So it would make anybody panic but it’s going to be especially difficult for you because it brings back triggers of being abandoned from the time you were a kid that you had no control over. And so it’s going to send you into a panic, so he should know that he should try not to say that unless he means it and then don’t – you know, but he should really try to work out that he can say I’m still questioning this. I’m still having a hard time. I don’t know how it’s going to be for me tomorrow. All of those things are true for him without saying, that’s it, it’s done. I want a – You know what I mean. Those are some really bad triggers for you. So I guess that I would want him to know that it’s not an excuse but it is a reason and a valid reason. It gives an important context. Just my uninformed opinion. What do you make of that?

CLIENT: I think that’s true and I mean, we did have chance to tell him, I did at one point tell him how bad that is to hear it and like how you were recognizing some of the abandonment issues and I told him and I think he heard me. I don’t think at that point when he said, it, I think he made it very much in his mind what he wanted.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:20:25]

CLIENT: We didn’t wind up seeing the pastor until a few weeks later, like two weeks later or something like that. But I think at that point he hadn’t much made up his mind like this is what I want, it’s just a matter of how is it going to happen, and stuff like that. But then, I don’t know, I guess something changed in him like shortly after that. Like a week after that when we wound up resigning our lease and I saw him struggling with that and was like, are we going to resign it or not and then he wound up doing it and then I was kind of like, okay, well maybe it’s not the same decision right now or at least not at this moment so, yeah, but I can’t remember when we talked about it. If might have been, I don’t know – we’ve had so many talks, I can’t even remember really –

THERAPIST: But you are talking?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And so that’s like I tried to look at the victories, like okay, he looks at me, like he’s (unclear) conversation – like when I say, hey, can we talk? He doesn’t just say no and if he’s had a really stressful day at work he’ll say like, ‘now is not the best time. I’m not going to be really open. But he’s been very available to talking into like watch a TV show together or play a game together. I mean like it’s there, but the struggle for me is like win at times over because there is still that lack of relationship so it’s just like well, there is this good moment but it’s like going back to nothing the next moment.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but do you know what? I wonder if you could view it as not nothing.

CLIENT: I try to but it’s hard especially because like, I can’t remember, it’s been like two weeks or something but he started sleeping out front for a while and part of it is because of his back and part of it is because we just watch different stuff and so he’ll just go to sleep but it’s like sometimes I ask him if he’ll sleep in the bed and he will and it’s so off and on but that was an investment too, like no matter what his reason is, it’s still like separation and that was hard to deal with. [00:22:20]

THERAPIST: Sure. Yes.

CLIENT: So it’s still hard because there’s still a lot of days when I sleep by myself. So and I don’t want to (unclear) and so before I know the motivation would have been, my wife doesn’t want to sleep alone and I don’t want her to sleep alone, but now there’s no connection, but now there’s no really benefits for being married like as far as I’m going to consider her because she’s my wife, because I love her. None of that is there, so –

THERAPIST: Well –

CLIENT: Well, none of that is apparent. It might be there but it’s not being practiced.

THERAPIST: Yes, but the fact that he’s having conversations with you about it. You don’t go back to nothing. It feels like it. It feels very real because you want it to hurry up and be okay. This will not hurry up.

CLIENT: But even until we’re building something. It doesn’t feel like we’re building because it really feels like we’re going back to square one every day. I can recognize that it’s not as bad as it was back a month or two ago.

THERAPIST: That’s the building.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know.

THERAPIST: Yes, but I can totally understand how impatient you are because you want it to be okay. You hurt someone you love. You want your marriage to be okay.

I get that. But it’s not going back to nothing. It’s just slow. It’s like building the Great Wall of China one brick at a time. But even if there wasn’t infidelity, it may be three bricks at a time then, but marriage would still be like building the bricks.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Right. And so you guys are starting from the foundation again. You are building. I would say I’m no expert, but I would say I’m a little bit of one. I would be hearing different things. I am not trying to paint you a blue sky and tell you I know things that I don’t know. I don’t know how this ends for you guys. This does not sound like he is walking out the door tomorrow. Or if he walks out the door then he’s not going to try to come back. It sounds like he and you are struggling, but in the struggle, you’re talking about things, crying. He’s walking out and coming back, right? And you’re coming back to the place that you’re continuing to reaffirm – this is important, right? It’s important because we go to the pastor to talk about it. It’s important because we continue to have conversations about it. So he is not always putting your needs first right now. Okay. But you are building. You just don’t know yet what the end result is – but you are building. This is what building looks like. It’s just not fast. It’s painful, but there is a way. (Unclear). There is a way that if you build it well, you build it more solid than it was because it’s built on honesty and it looks like a stronger relationship than what you started out with. But it’s hard and it’s slow and it’s not easy and it takes a long time.

[00:25:30]

CLIENT: And I think it’s especially hard because it was never this much of a struggle for us to be –

THERAPIST: Maybe you guys are being more real now than you ever have before. If you take away fidelity – there was something that was going to happen in the relationship because it happens in all relationships, you know, where something happens where there’s a breech of trust, financial trust, fidelity trust, doing what you say you’re going to do. There’s always something, right? So there’s always building. There’s always building. Always, you know. So I guess you know, today, if I could give you anything it would be to tell you perseverance and hang in there, have hope. Be sad, be upset, be depressed, be excited, be all those things and just be honest about it. But he’s not sounding like a guy who’s done. That’s not what done looks like. You know. He looks like he’s working through a painful process like you look like you’re working through yours. I’m sorry you guys have to go through this, but we all have to go through something. How are you doing right now?

CLIENT: Okay, I mean like it’s like – they go hand in hand. I know it’s something I have to go through but it’s still just like – like I knew it was going to be a long process and it’s – like the more time that passes, the harder it gets with either of us, too. Like if you were to ask me like back in July, was I going to be able to be here in July. And I probably would have been like, no – I just can’t take this anymore. It’s just too much. But I’m here and I’m making it and I have days like I just can’t take this anymore. Sure, then it ends and then it’s the next day, so –

THERAPIST: Three steps forward, one step back. One, two, three, one step back but it’s still two steps forward.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So even if you take three steps forward and three steps back you’re in the same place, but you are moving.

CLIENT: Yeah. Especially if I’m purposefully and intentionally looking for the – like I said, the victory – like we did talk.

THERAPIST: Sometimes victory is the fact that you’re both still there.

CLIENT: Yeah, and so looking at it that way, too. So that’s a process, too. I’m very easily overcome by my emotions. So being able to lead them and not have them lead me.

THERAPIST: Let’s look at a time. Let’s see what we can do here.

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