TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I'm just like I'm tired, my legs are tired.

THERAPIST: (Unclear) bike ride.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Sorry about your bike ride. Glad it wasn't something injurious.

(Pause): [00:00:27 00:00:39]

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: I'm okay.

CLIENT: Okay.

(Pause): [00:00:43 00:00:50]

THERAPIST: Glad Friday worked.

(Pause): [00:00:50 [00:00:57]

CLIENT: Do you ever do double sessions?

THERAPIST: Not often, but occasionally, yes.

(Pause): [00:01:06 00:01:16]

CLIENT: Um hmm. I think it could be good. One – because it would mean coming here fewer times a week which might be helpful. And mostly with like (unclear) really different.

THERAPIST: All right. I will see if I can arrange it and (unclear)

CLIENT: Later.

THERAPIST: Later.

CLIENT: You'll see if you can arrange it. You'll see later.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'm not going to try to arrange it now. It may be difficult but I will try.

(Pause): [00:02:22 00:02:41]

CLIENT: So if you had things to say about the dream I'm having, why didn't you say something earlier?

(Pause): [00:02:46 00:03:05]

THERAPIST: I guess a couple of things that (Pause) I remember now. I don't (unclear) like (Pause) if there were things that I thought were sort of pressing, I would have said them. I guess it's probably a combination of feeling more like there are things that you talk about and also (Pause) kind of taking the lead from what's on your mind and you're (unclear) what you're talking about.

CLIENT: But I did not need to talk about religion for as long as I did. It's not that important to me. And I deny that it's enlightening you having to say perhaps they were not pressing (Pause) and you didn't say them. And I didn't really have anything to say about this dream that was on my mind then.

THERAPIST: But I could have had stuff to say had it been brought up.

(Pause): [00:04:28 00:04:47]

THERAPIST: You're annoyed with me for letting you talk about something that wasn't important to you rather than bringing us back to something that –

(Pause): [00:04:56 [00:05:05]

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah. Whatever.

THERAPIST: Stuff that matters more to you?

CLIENT: I think it's just the general frustration, the sense of urgency here and not wanting to waste time.

(Pause): [00:05:25 00:05:31]

CLIENT: I don't know why I had left.

(Pause): [00:05:34 00:05:53]

CLIENT: I mean I feel urgent about a lot of things that aren't urgent (Pause) like –

(Pause): [00:05:57 00:06:04]

CLIENT: – talking about couples therapy with Jeremy.

(Pause): [00:06:07 00:06:16]

CLIENT: I felt really urgent about it a couple of times and had to say this is not urgent. It had like shifted the way it had looked in your brain.

(Pause): [00:06:29 00:06:38]

THERAPIST: It would not surprise me to hear that I, in a way, tend to believe in feelings so if you're feeling urgent about something I kind of take it as axiomatic that there is something important and that you want – you know, it may not be sort of the obvious thing about what you're feeling but there is something (Pause).

CLIENT: Yeah. This is the place where I can listen to that a little more.

(Pause): [00:07:12 00:07:28]

THERAPIST: I think there (Pause) maybe I'm trying not to make (unclear) of you, but it often seems to me in terms of religion that (unclear) religion, part of what you're talking about is, 'hey, where the hell are you coming from?' You know?

(Pause): [00:07:47 00:07:55]

THERAPIST: Like – do you like or make sense of this Christianity business that seems so spooky and a little strange to you?

CLIENT: Um hmm. But I didn't get anywhere. So I didn't need to like talk about it for 20 minutes.

(Pause): [00:08:12 00:08:18]

CLIENT: I don't think it helped me to talk about it.

THERAPIST: Um hmm. Okay.

(Pause): [00:08:24 00:08:27]

CLIENT: Maybe it helped you.

(Pause): [00:08:29 00:09:50]

THERAPIST: I imagine you feel like I'm kind of (unclear) for staying far away from you.

(Pause): [00:09:58 00:10:08]

THERAPIST: In an hour like on Monday.

CLIENT: Um hmm. (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:10:12 00:10:32]

CLIENT: Yeah, think you (unclear) different.

(Pause): [00:10:32 00:10:57]

THERAPIST: Maybe what mattered the most was that you weren't getting anywhere (Pause) and you were upset about that and were talking about how you weren't getting anywhere.

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: Because you weren't getting anywhere. (Pause) And that (unclear) you out. (Pause)

CLIENT: And at the end you were like really disturbed that like there's this the other thing we didn't get anywhere on.

(Pause): [00:11:36 [00:11:41]

CLIENT: That maybe you had something to say about.

THERAPIST: I see, like we had another connect on this but it's too bad we didn't talk about that because we would have done that. That's what I felt.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:11:56 00:12:29]

THERAPIST: I think it's good you're bringing this up partly because I think this kind of involves in particular (Pause) you're (unclear) annoyed or disappointed in me for doing the same thing.

(Pause): [00:12:59 00:13:04]

CLIENT: I generally don't like to talk and you know I don't like to focus on that something in general.

(Pause): [00:13:10 00:13:14]

THERAPIST: I think for a couple of reasons: one is like the angry part and the other is the sort of hurt that's involved.

CLIENT: What's the angry part?

(Pause): [00:13:29 00:13:35]

THERAPIST: (Unclear), you asshole. Like you're not saying that. I'm totally caricaturing what you're saying, but you did say you were annoyed and I think I can understand why and that's the angry part.

CLIENT: Yeah, but what do you think my relationship is to be angry, right?

(Pause): [00:13:55 00:14:06]

THERAPIST: I think it's not only that either convey –

CLIENT: Yeah, true.

THERAPIST: – to me. I'm sure other people's lives (unclear) firsthand.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't think that I dislike the feelings but I think I don't – I find it difficult to express it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And also –

CLIENT: Whereas the hurt part. I think I don't like those feelings and don't express them (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:14:37 00:14:47]

THERAPIST: Sometimes.

CLIENT: Which ones?

(Pause): [00:14:46 00:14:55]

THERAPIST: I think sometimes you do express what I guess I think is a really (unclear) that you don't. Sometimes you do like (unclear).

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:15:04 00:15:26]

THERAPIST: And I think you don't like the hurt feelings because I think you feel probably feel a little bit ashamed of them because you don't want to feel as affected by them like what happened on Monday as you are.

(Pause): [00:15:43 00:15:50]

THERAPIST: Whereas the anger, I think, the worry as you say, is not that you don't like the feeling so much. I think probably more a (unclear) you don't want to create a rift between us.

CLIENT: I think it's more that I don't like blaming anyone. I don't find that to be a useful relationship when it's so nuanced. Because I think it's more important to state what happened and to talk about which, what you contributed and what I contributed to it. But it feels heavy to me to say, 'you did this wrong and therefore I feel bad.' Because that's not really what happened. There are really bad things that people do to other people that deserve blame, none of those things apply here.

THERAPIST: Uh huh [yes].

CLIENT: I think it's like cowardly and not owning up to my own reaction to put the blame on you or feel, to talk too much about (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:17:24 00:17:36]

CLIENT: But I can't change you.

(Pause): [00:17:35 00:18:00]

THERAPIST: The tricky part –

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: It's not as though you're being angry with me for not saying more about like we were discussing my life and also not helping to direct the conversation in some way that felt closer. It's not as though you're just annoyed with me for that on Monday in isolation. There are other things in our (unclear) our relationship in a way like I mean that obviously really add to things. And, for example, on Monday (inaudible).

CLIENT: Sure.

(Pause): [00:19:10 00:19:40]

THERAPIST: And I think it makes sense that you (unclear).

CLIENT: Those two instances?

THERAPIST: By how (unclear) makes me feel.

CLIENT: Ah.

(Pause): [00:19:59 00:20:14]

CLIENT: I think there isn't an acknowledgement from me or by me or you about how much I think about you.

(Pause): [00:20:24 00:20:32]

CLIENT: That seems to be more to the point that I was making.

(Pause): [00:20:35 00:20:49]

CLIENT: No. I don't want to. I want to hear about it from you. Because I think I already told you. I have nothing new to say about it. I guess I was (unclear) more comfortable with it.

(Pause): [00:21:19 00:22:34]

THERAPIST: You seem to feel pretty ashamed about it.

(Pause): [00:22:36 00:22:48]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think there's more to it. I think I'm feeling alone in it.

THERAPIST: Like I (inaudible).

CLIENT: You don't talk about it.

(Pause): [00:23:06 00:23:27]

CLIENT: Like you've lived here and you don't use the (unclear) yet. And you think you know a lot about what's (unclear) but you don't talk about it either.

(Pause): [00:23:39 00:24:04]

THERAPIST: I do actually use it, but you are right that I don't talk about it.

(Pause): [00:24:08 00:24:19]

THERAPIST: I would be doing things pretty differently if I didn't have it in mind.

(Pause): [00:24:27 00:24:38]

CLIENT: How so?

(Pause): [00:24:38 00:25:00]

THERAPIST: Well I generally, unless there is sort of a clear indication. There usually isn't but, unless there's some clear indication, otherwise I kind of not say anything and kind of move on all the time and it's like our relationship and how you feel about me and where we're at in relation to that. That's why we're talking and sometimes it has to do with sex and desire and sometimes with sadness and distance and sometimes with anger and distance and sometimes with shame about some of those feelings but I almost always – and there may be some times when you come in and you say – you talk about things that happen in the lab or that happen in your life or with Jeremy and I sort of think about things you (unclear) yet but most of the time I feel bad, like at the center of whatever we're talking about and –

CLIENT: I think that's different from how much time my (unclear) is acknowledged.

(Pause): [00:26:35 00:26:40]

CLIENT: Being acknowledged by you and me. I think I'm really uncomfortable with it.

THERAPIST: Would you say it's really different from how (unclear) (cross talk) –?

CLIENT: Ah, everything you said, it did occur to me that our relationship and where we are in relation to each other and in relation to the feelings that you (unclear) is at the center, mostly for you, but I think there's a piece of it that isn't at the center of everything.

THERAPIST: Isn't at the center of everything we've talked about?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's either – which is particularly how much you think about me –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: – outside of therapy.

(Pause): [00:27:40 00:27:48]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you're right. I mean I guess I

(Pause): [00:27:54 00:28:08]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:28:08 00:28:27]

THERAPIST: I think I'm (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:28:27 00:28:48]

CLIENT: Maybe you think that that is an effect or byproduct of something that's my (unclear).

(Pause): [00:28:55 00:29:04]

THERAPIST: Well, I guess I making as an example of Monday like what I mentioned earlier maybe that was central in terms of your (unclear) or at least part of it, but there is another part which is you were thinking about that a lot.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You know like of the many things there are to be thinking of –

CLIENT: That's what I was thinking about.

THERAPIST: That's what you were thinking about instead of being independent and religion and stuff.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And –

CLIENT: It's important to talk about.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

(Pause): [00:29:49 00:30:00]

CLIENT: Because maybe there's something more abstract than (unclear) but I don't think –

(Pause): [00:30:06 00:30:21]

CLIENT: – like the thing I'm accessing most of the time is like the nature and frequency of (unclear) about religion because – so that's like the main experience with me. It's not so much about –

(Pause): [00:30:44 00:30:51]

CLIENT: I mean these things are important but it's not so much about it like –

(Pause): [00:30:57 00:31:06]

CLIENT: I want to have sex with you. I don't want to have sex with you. And I (unclear) and all those things are true but the main experience for me is just like thinking about all of it and how I feel about that.

THERAPIST: Which I get.

CLIENT: And I feel badly about it.

(Pause): [00:31:37 00:31:40]

CLIENT: Whereas I feel good about some of the thoughts. Do you understand?

THERAPIST: I think so. Yeah. Even if you feel good about the contents of some of the thoughts that you're having, you're still feeling mostly bad about having the thoughts in the first place.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:31:57 00:32:12]

THERAPIST: I guess I – it feels like partly love and partly (unclear) that goes along with it really.

CLIENT: I felt this way like the first time I (unclear).

(Pause): [00:32:27 00:32:30]

CLIENT: And I really didn't like it. It was like I was living and breathing even thoughts about (unclear) and feeling badly about Jeremy. And then feeling badly about feeling the loss so much. (Pause) I remember the night so long ago we went to Vermont and (unclear) there for three and a half weeks and we were out of touch. We wrote letters. And it was really painful and it was like I was completely consumed by how much I missed him and how bad it felt to not be with him and how bad it felt to miss him and I went to – I spent a day with my mom during that time and I think I dreamt about Jeremy every night or every other night for three months that summer. So like I just couldn't really get away from it. And I think my mom knew a lot of it but I didn't talk about it much. I felt ashamed and I felt like she wouldn't get it or like it and I think I said one thing, which was like, 'I'm feeling really sad,' and she said, "You're really dependent, aren't you?"

THERAPIST: Ooh.

CLIENT: The sort of thing that parents –

THERAPIST: It was like feeling someone had punched you in the face.

CLIENT: I think I didn't have much of an individuation.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think it was like, 'well, if mom thinks that, it's a feeling of dependency, it must be bad.'

(Pause): [00:34:57 00:35:03]

CLIENT: So that summer feels a lot like that did.

THERAPIST: When you say you don't think you have a sense of individuation, what do you mean?

CLIENT: I don't think it would occur to me to resist or punch my mom in the face for saying that. I don't think it occurred to me as being a bad thing to say. I think it was – I know it was very hurtful and I think it just made me not really want to share my feelings with her but I think it was like, 'that's what mom thinks.' But it's not just that she said that like that's how she and my dad have treated feelings of longing and loss and love and romance when we were younger for like our whole lives. It was like marriage is the time when you have those feelings. And it's that way because you've already established your career and you're mature enough and this and that and like I was feeling those feelings more strongly than many people very early on and they weren't supported. It was like, 'why are you getting distracted?'

(Pause): [00:36:24 00:36:28]

CLIENT: 'Why are you distracted with boys – you're too young.'

(Pause): [00:36:32 – 00:36:37]

CLIENT: So I think that idea of dependency is pretty deep.

(Pause): [00:36:44 00:37:48] THERAPIST: Well I imagine that you couldn't have been otherwise because my not talking more about how much you were thinking about me must feel to you a bit like your mom's response like I'm kind of subtly conveying that, 'you shouldn't feel that way. It's not okay. I don't want to talk about it.'

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:38:17 00:38:26]

THERAPIST: Which is not at all how I feel about it.

CLIENT: No.

(Pause): [00:38:28 00:38:31]

CLIENT: But I think you need to say it.

THERAPIST: That is not at all how I feel. (Chuckles) About it. Not at all.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: No.

(Pause): [00:38:48 00:38:53]

CLIENT: If you want to say more about how you do feel about it you can say that. I think I know that that's not how you feel because it wouldn't work and stuff how you felt you wouldn't be doing a good job. Is that how you felt?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I can't (unclear). That's too abstract. That needs to be part of the conversation.

(Pause): [00:39:16 00:39:25]

THERAPIST: It makes me sad that you feel sad and ashamed about having those feelings or thinking about me that much. And –

CLIENT: I feel sad? (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause) And you feel bad about it and (Pause) –

CLIENT: Interesting.

(Pause): [00:40:03 00:40:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible)

(Pause): [00:40:16 00:40:21]

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: I don't know. (inaudible)

(Pause): [00:40:25 00:40:33]

CLIENT: Ah. Okay.

(Pause): [00:40:35 00:40:39]

CLIENT: I think this session started late.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: I don't know what I'm talking about if you have a few minutes or not.

THERAPIST: Okay.

(Pause): [00:40:53 00:40:59]

CLIENT: You were saying?

(Pause): [00:41:00 00:41:03]

THERAPIST: I got (unclear) when you said, "That's interesting."

(Pause): [00:41:04 00:41:27]

THERAPIST: I guess I probably thought it was sad and there's so much grief sort of mixed up in this for you. I mean I want to be clear that I have something I'd like you happy and I think about your feelings for me and being sad about those.

CLIENT: I know. I think it's interesting that you feel sad because it suggests that you think that those, that my feelings are positive, or that there are positive things about feeling those things.

THERAPIST: No, I don't feel sad about that. I feel sad about what's bothering you about that.

CLIENT: Oh. Un huh.

THERAPIST: And that feels like, in a way like some of those same things about the summer you're describing with Jeremy, like yeah.

(Pause): [00:42:50 00:42:52]

CLIENT: Say that again.

THERAPIST: I felt the same way about what you're describing from that summer with Jeremy. Like the, you know, like being happy about what was happening between the two of you but sad both for like the ways that was making you feel bad when you expressed some of the sadness you felt and also, though I know that's acceptable, you know. (inaudible) back together and because you were feeling ashamed talking about yourself (unclear) Jeremy in the first place, it (unclear) because of how your mom responded to Jeremy then because (inaudible) responded to things like that in the past (unclear) including, I'm sure, with that.

CLIENT: With them? Yeah. I think it's important to mention that she was not psyched about Jeremy's prospects like the prospect of Jeremy being her son-in-law, which you know. But I think that moving for her was like, "yikes."

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: This was really deep. This was really big. Really dependent, aren't you? Or like, honor (unclear). Or, you're having a lot of feelings about this guy I'm not so psyched about. And that was a (unclear) – that was the beginning of a (unclear). So I don't think, like I always wonder if it had been an Indian guy if there would have been more acceptance. I know there would have.

-

THERAPIST: I see. I bet that she was reacting both to the feelings that you were having and her feelings about who your feelings were for.

CLIENT: Right. And I think some of that applies here to. Like I guess I'm not so psyched or maybe I feel like my parents wouldn't be psyched if I said anything, that I'm having these feelings but I'm like living and breathing these feelings about you because you're kind of like Jeremy to my mom at that time that you're kind of like out there in your own island. There isn't any precedent for you and your, like who you are in your role in my life and it feels like it's going to take a long time –

(Pause): [00:46:36 00:46:44]

CLIENT: – to feel comfortable about – to be comfortable with these feelings because of that.

(Pause): [00:46:53 00:47:02]

THERAPIST: We should stop here.

(Pause): [00:47:02 00:47:19]

CLIENT: Do you drink alcohol?

THERAPIST: Not much.

(Pause): [00:47:33 00:47:38]

CLIENT: I thought so.

THERAPIST: You were right.

(Pause): [00:47:42 00:47:58]

CLIENT: Like (unclear) or get on the bus?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Have a (unclear)

THERAPIST: Thanks, you to.

END TRANSCRIPT