TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[joined in progress]

THERAPIST: They're being a real pain in the ass. I called them earlier today and they hadn't finished entering the faxes, so they couldn't tell me if they had gotten the faxes back yesterday. So, I just got a fax from them saying, "We need you to re-fax, because the information is incomplete." I don't know if that's because it came as two separate faxes (and they didn't realize they had both of them); I think that's what it is, because it said, "Please also send us an out-of-network form," which I did. But, maybe it got separated...

CLIENT: The lady I talked to said that you don't have to fill it out again (ph).

THERAPIST: They just sent me a fax saying it's incomplete because we haven't... although I did send it again anyway, because, anyway... I'll try them again tomorrow.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Thanks for doing that. (pause) So you don't have to do this for patients who are in a PPO? [00:01:00]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I'm in the process of trying to convince financial aid to give me money for therapy.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: The boundaries just don't work for me, the like, Brown boundary, so I'm reading it.

THERAPIST: What do you mean? I'm confused.

CLIENT: This is an example of how I... like, I have a bee (therapist affirms) in my bonnet as long as there are a boundary that doesn't make sense.

THERAPIST: Got it!

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: In this case, the boundary is, they should, they're not paying.

CLIENT: They have so much fucking money and they should pay.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's true.

CLIENT: Brown University Health Services doesn't have necessarily a lot of money or wealth (therapist affirms), well, allocated resources, but financial aid has the access, I'm sure, to (therapist affirms) tons of money. (weak/inaudible) (pause) What does a treatment plan look like? [00:02:23]

THERAPIST: (pause) Um... I'm sure you wouldn't want to see it. It's a form that's... It's a one-page form that asks for some demographic information about me and you, a diagnosis code, some symptoms (like, if a person has some symptoms), and then there is the bit about... like, list three problems and are things improving, staying the same, or getting worse. That's about it. It's not very substantial.

CLIENT: Do you think the three problems that you listed are improving, staying the same, or getting worse? [00:03:24]

THERAPIST: I honestly do not even remember what they are. I mean like, um...

CLIENT: So, is this something that like, you do for insurance, but you don't... think captures like, anything really that important in the treatment?

THERAPIST: Correct. Yeah, I mean... I do try to think about, obviously, what's going on and how things are going, but I... That's quite separate from, um, the kind that Blue Cross and Blue Shield request for me.

CLIENT: And your (inaudible)?

THERAPIST: Um, yeah. They leave you about... like, that much space to write the problem, and it has to be like, behaviorally specific. It can't be, you know, "Patient..." Like, things like, "Patient frequently experiences low (inaudible)," or (client affirms) you know, "Has difficulty in x kind of relationship," stuff like that.

[pause 00:04:47 to 00:05:24]

CLIENT: How are your allergies?

THERAPIST: A little better, thanks.

CLIENT: Do you think this the bad time for allergies?

THERAPIST: Yeah, mine usually suck for like, nonstop (ph) this time of year. I don't really have that much other times. (client affirms)

[pause 00:05:45 to 00:06:17]

CLIENT: I've been feeling a lot of general anxiety. Like, I know what that means now. (pause) (sneezes twice) I think I'm catching Jeremy's cold, but maybe it's allergies.

[pause 00:06:51to 00:07:16]

THERAPIST: What general anxiety do you have (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Um like... there are these like, waves of racing thoughts and... fear that are like, bowling me over. I have periods of calm that usually come about after like, some kind of meditative thing. I haven't been able to sit for like, four days, but... (therapist responds) I've been doing, I haven't been able to like, sit on my own for (inaudible). We've been doing guided meditations that are like, focusing and not so much my mindful (therapist responds), because I think there is like, so much... like, meta-mindfulness going on in the waves of anxiety that aren't useful and aren't particularly insightful, but they're there. I can't take like, dissecting them right now, or (therapist responds) (inaudible), you know like... [00:08:44]

So that has been nice, because it gives me a sense of like, confidence that I can achieve a different mental state, with a lot of work, at will. (pause) Um... I don't know what triggered it. I think... there is a lot going on that is very, very full (ph). I am... I could be a scientist, if I wanted to.

THERAPIST: I'll bet you could. [00:09:36]

CLIENT: Well, in doing the type of work that I'm doing... it's just like, all on the cutting edge. There is no precedent, probably no useful precedent for most of what I'm doing, and it's very cool (coughs), and (inaudible).

THERAPIST: That's all very cool. That's good.

CLIENT: Yeah, but it's a, the relationship with my work that I have never experienced before.

THERAPIST: Oh?

CLIENT: Which was like, this is the kind of work, do I really want to be doing this much work?

THERAPIST: Hmm. Is the new part that last question or...? [00:10:36]

CLIENT: No, I think it's different.

THERAPIST: ...the whole shebang?

CLIENT: I think it's like... and the nature of the work is so... exploratory and failure-ridden and open-ended and personal... right now, at least. That's the nature of the work. Yeah, but I just, there is like, some like, line that I've crossed. I think it's like, the more than... a certain amount of each day is spent on work (therapist affirms) while (inaudible) (blocked) and I feel like... I don't know; I'm not sure how I feel about it. [00:11:39]

I'm pretty happy with the work, I mean, with like, doing it and what I'm doing as I'm entering and how I'm being stimulated. It just feels like a very slippery slope. (pause) I think it feels like I've crossed a line, because I'm already, I'm all of a sudden like... imagining myself as a professor. I've never done that before (therapist affirms), and that like... involves a type of stress that... I don't know if I want. [00:12:33]

(pause) So there is that, and then the sick, I'm getting sick, I think. And... um, this is pretty stressful. I've been on this like, obsessive financial aid kick for a couple of days. (pause) And the whole, I'm just not sure like, why I'm trying so hard.

THERAPIST: Um... I wonder if... you're working on pushing some other boundaries? [00:13:54]

CLIENT: Like with you? I think with Jeremy.

THERAPIST: I guess I was thinking with work and with the financial aid and stuff that...

CLIENT: Oh. (pause) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that... for some reason, you're... sort of directing energy at pushing those boundaries. I don't know if... yeah.

CLIENT: Well, I guess I meant, I don't know why I'm working so hard at like... on Dr. Burton (ph), like the financial aid or some billing. (pause) Like, I really want Jeremy to see me as... like, having some kind of financial awareness, be an activist, awareness of the financial end of this, but... I don't know. It's like a really similar thing to like, just diverting energy that has to do with missing you to like, something. I... getting really worked up about financial aid is like more useful to deal with. [00:15:57]

THERAPIST: (pause) What have you been thinking about? Me or missing me or things between you and me since May?

CLIENT: Well, I'm wondering if like, if you've thought about all the things you said you'd think about.

THERAPIST: (pause) Um...

CLIENT: (pause) That wasn't an answer.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think... um... that was the question. I mean... Because I remember that you... said... you thought I was... overlooking... or... focused away from... ways we're compatible, how things are between us... and I said, I think that's the main thing I said I would think about. [00:17:56]

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. I guess that feels like a lot of things. I think there is something else, but it doesn't... I don't remember.

THERAPIST: (pause) And...

[pause 00:18:16 to 00:18:39]

I did think about it. Um... But...

[pause 00:18:53 to 00:19:17]

One thing I thought about as part of it is how like...

[pause 00:19:21 to 00:19:40]

When (inaudible) the question itself and... I just sort of don't have much to say about it. And I thought... how would anything I thought about it, would the question actually affect... how things, yeah, how, why it was here and I... couldn't think of much.

CLIENT: Yeah, I haven't much to say about it either, you know, I (inaudible) think about it.

THERAPIST: I don't know what to say about it here. And then the third thing I wondered about is... what do you sense of what I've overlooked. [00:20:38]

CLIENT: Well, I just think you're taller than my kite (ph) (therapist affirms), so that's really hard. (pause) (therapist affirms) Um, I keep struggling to... identify like, what of that has come up since... either of us like, open their mouths... and just developed this relationship, and what of that is always true. (pause) I mean, you're... and that also, it's hard to know like, what you, who you are anyway. [00:21:38]

(pause) So... I don't know what, how much of what do you feel (ph). I mean, you're sort of like, you're a quiet-ish... sensitive, man with a spiritual and artistic Jeremyt, s type (ph), not only in... the realm of like, romantic love, but in the realm of... deep companionship and friendship. (pause) And sometimes it feels like I would rather have that than anything we were doing. [00:22:49]

(pause) But, there is the deep companionship here that is... and that, I can't, and I don't ignore that. (therapist affirms)

[pause 00:23:18 to 00:24:42]

THERAPIST: Well... (pause) I mean the thought that keeps occurring to me is like, that, you know, that's the bitch about therapy. Um... and... when... in the kind of like... compatibility that you mention, like creates intensity, opportunity, and a lot of suffering. [00:26:05]

CLIENT: (pause) So maybe we're incompatible.

THERAPIST: Hmm. How so?

CLIENT: (pause) Well, I don't know. Is this creating more suffering than it needs to? If so, then maybe that's an incompatibility.

THERAPIST: (pause) Um... (pause) Well... we're going to have two different kinds of compatibility, right? Like, for the personal compatibility and therapy compatibility, you know. [00:27:31]

CLIENT: So maybe that I end up asking means a therapy incompatibility.

THERAPIST: (pause) Um... it's... to me... I don't think of it as a therapy incompatibility. Um... (pause) Well, okay. I can imagine you have two things in mind there, one of which is, does it get in the way of like, (inaudible) to therapy. The other is, it really fucking hurts and do I need to be going through that? [00:28:49]

CLIENT: I think it's the second.

THERAPIST: That's the one I heard. (client affirms) (inaudible), the one you're concerned about.

CLIENT: I don't think it's getting in the way, but I do (inaudible). (therapist affirms) Because like, you know, at peace or something that...

THERAPIST: (pause) Um... yeah, I... I wouldn't have thought it was getting in the way of our working on things. I think... (pause) I mean, I do think I have a sense of... helping put it and... I don't know.

[pause 00:30:04 to 00:30:42]

Does what you're... I have thought that some of what you're... struggling and suffering with... actually feels pretty central to what... we're working on, or you're working on, or talking about.

[pause 00:31:05 to 00:32:30]

CLIENT: What do you think about... having a therapy friend?

THERAPIST: (pause) I didn't hear. Did you say you think about it, or did you ask what I think about it?

CLIENT: What do you think about it?

THERAPIST: (pause) Somebody you can talk to about what's going on in therapy? (client affirms) (inaudible)

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (pause) No, not really. I'm not saying you shouldn't. I just... I just don't really hear about it, haven't really heard about it. [00:33:46]

CLIENT: Maybe you could be my therapy friend.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I could be? Yeah, that's how it usually... works. But maybe I misunderstand like...

CLIENT: Well... it's not enough. (pause) I need to talk about it more.

THERAPIST: You need more time here?

CLIENT: I mean, I don't need anything.

THERAPIST: What would help? Would it help if you had more time here? I think it might.

CLIENT: I feel like I have to talk more (inaudible) to be here with me. [00:34:42]

THERAPIST: (pause) Am I not being as helpful as I could be with talking about it? Like, sort of with the therapy friendship part?

CLIENT: You are being helpful. (pause) I can think more about... (weak/inaudible) (pause) I had a pretty... excellent dream that I would like to share now. [00:35:52]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) the copier. (adjusts microphone) I don't want to be distracted while you're... telling me about the... okay.

CLIENT: Can you see that? (therapist affirms) (pause) You're so psyched!

THERAPIST: I am? Do you care about dream? (pause) Well, I'm happy you had the dream, that's true. But I'm happy to hear about the dream because... mostly because... it feels to me like you're going to start talking about what you actually want to start talking about, what you actually want to be talking about. [00:37:01]

CLIENT: I think a lot of things... that I've been thinking about like... will come up. (therapist affirms) The dream happened Tuesday night. (pause) The other dream about you happened Saturday night. I think there was like, some sense of relief that... tomorrow is the day before Jay. That, it could be, that could be completely unrelated.

In the dream, you and your wife... are having... a therapy... like, a retreat, workshop, Dharma talk, party thing at some like, retreat center. And... Let's just call her "M." You and "M" are like, so... devoted to this like, event. It doesn't feel like an event, I mean it doesn't feel like... something that you have to be "on" for, which was like really noticeable. It's like this whole big thing, like you go to this place, there are all these people like, you are there. It's from 10:00 a.m. to 1:00 a.m. and I don't feel like, I don't feel "on" and like I have to be "on" like, the entire time, so that's great. That's pretty cool. [00:39:22]

Your patients are there and her patients are there. She wasn't necessarily a good counselor or therapist in the dream, but somehow like, she's really tuned in to this world and... She's like, part of you or something. There are aspects of the dream that seem like they're modeled after this couple, Carter Rogers (ph) and Charlotte Moore (ph). Carter was Jeremy's, one of Jeremy's PIs when he worked in Los Angeles. He works at UCLA Medical School (inaudible). (pause) I don't know, cognitive, neuropsychologist or something, something like that. Maybe there is some like, the word clinical in there too. She is a clinical psychologist and I don't know like, why they come up. [00:40:33]

THERAPIST: Her name is Charlotte Moore? (client affirms) Okay. I don't know her.

CLIENT: She is a research, she does research. I don't know why, it didn't come up in the dream, but like, somehow they were like, some like, parts of them are being involved in the dream. Carter is like, totally the most charming, nice, kind self-deprecating guy we know. He, Jeremy is like, totally loves him. They really love each other. And that doesn't happen that often with Jeremy, in a work environment. Carter is very special, and they just had a baby.

So... I felt like, so much camaraderie with your patients, not like, any jealousy (which is like, what I'd normally feel in real life). It was this like, beautiful... environment of just like, studying and celebrating and like, probing what we do here. I don't know what we did all day, but it really, I mean, it felt like a... felt like a Dharma talk. Do you get what I mean when I say that? [00:42:12]

THERAPIST: I mean, I've been to Dharma talks, but I don't... I don't know what you mean.

CLIENT: I don't know. It felt like you were... you and "M," even though "M" didn't really speak, and we, but it was mostly you and maybe there were invited people, invited speakers, but we were all just sort of like, sitting around... meditation style, although people were quite loose and just themselves and like, exploring like what it is, this is and... why we do it, why it exists, why it works, why it doesn't work. And it wasn't clinical or academic, it was like a soul... [00:43:14]

THERAPIST: I see. That was probably how it was like a Dharma talk? (client affirms) It wasn't professionalized? (client denies) Or medicalized...

CLIENT: No. It was like real... we're all here because we...

THERAPIST: We're into this thing.

CLIENT: It's more like we live, we are alive and like, we are drawn to this thing or like, we have to, we just can't... We're here and we don't know why or like, we're trying to figure out why. So you were completely "on," which means that you were just like, tirelessly like, running around like, making sure that everybody felt good. Like, I paid a lot of attention to your feet or your shoes, but you were wearing like really strange shoes. [00:44:20]

THERAPIST: What did they look like? Or what do you remember they looked like?

CLIENT: You know those like, xylophone toys, with the like, different colored keys? (therapist affirms) You had like, you were like, wearing one of those, but like a small one. It was like a loafer. You had like, fun socks on. I think, because I look at your feet a lot.

So, um... So one thing that comes up is that I've been entertaining the possibility that to you... the potential outside of these boundaries and the potential inside of these boundaries... Like, one isn't like, way better than the other for you. (therapist responds) And actually like, the dream was a lot about how special the potential is inside the boundary and like, clearly how much your life... is made up of that (therapist responds), and how special we all are to you, and how much you've learned from us (therapist affirms), and how like, it transcends like, the family line. It just (weak/inaudible). (pause) And your wife was like, completely in tune with us and what it was all about. (therapist affirms) (inaudible) [00:46:18]

THERAPIST: As opposed to feeling like, in conflict or (client affirms) possessive.

CLIENT: Or in, or like, indifferent or resentful (therapist responds). Yeah, I guess those things are in conflict. (therapist affirms) (pause) Or like, just sort of like a little bit detached, like she was completely in it. (therapist affirms) She knew everything. (pause) And she cared a lot. Like, I'm not sure that I've cared so much about... about myself as a patient actually, but (inaudible).

So, she was like, pouring some drinks... there was like some, one interaction between me and her where it was very warm, but she was like, pouring bourbon and saying like, "Well, we use this bourbon for cooking." And I was like, "You should never use that bourbon for cooking! Only use it for drinking! And drink it like, very slowly and in small amounts and really savor it." [00:47:39]

(pause) She was like, "Okay. Thanks." And then like, I interacted with her a lot like, just like sensing her aura. So, at some point... Oh, so like, we, you and I were supposed to have a public session at the end of this thing... (pause) which like, didn't happen, thank goodness. (both chuckle) I don't, I think I was the only one. Maybe the whole thing was full of people having public sessions. I can't...

THERAPIST: Maybe not.

CLIENT: I can't remember what we did all day. But like, mine was at the end. I think I had this fantasy of like, you taking me to the (ph) center and like, us talking about this with other analysts. (pause) I think there is a lot there. [00:48:57]

Late at night in the dream, you... I think like, the whole day was full of like, you talking about your patients as like... objects of study and like, you know, love and I was like, fueling this sort of Dharma talk part of it. So you started to talk, but it wasn't like anything that made the patients feel bad or good or, it was just like, we were all trying to like, appreciate and learn. (therapist responds) [00:49:42]

We start talking about this one patient who is... this like, totally... He's like, kind of older guy, very like, strong and... he had like a beard, and wearing like a hat and he has like, this old torn tee shirt on, a little overweight, and like a wind-burned person who works with his hands or something. You started talking about how... he... this patient, you named him by name, and he was like, sitting right there, like some introduction, blah blah blah, and how sometimes he masturbates and forms, and these were your words, rings of ejaculate on his shirt.

You like, start talking a lot about these rings like, the rings of a tree trunk. And there is something in there about strawberry... (pause) Yeah, it was like, quite involved. I don't remember anything else about it, except those words. And my reaction, after taking all of this in... Oh, and you said (chuckles), you know like, people were... people were paying attention. You sort of made this joke about how like, "Oh like, you can imagine how my coffee would get cold during the session." (therapist responds) Sort of an interesting, because you don't drink coffee. [00:51:58]

(pause) Do you drink coffee elsewhere? Yeah, I didn't think so. (pause) My reaction to this guy and you talking about him wasn't like... all men, but that was kind of out there, it was kind of like, (therapist responds) gross or... anything like that, it was like, "Whoa! That guy is like, totally himself, and has... (pause) Like, he's just like... getting himself to the sessions and he's not..." yeah. [00:53:02]

(pause) So I guess like, he is like, putting himself out there, but not, um, performing. That was like, my one thought about... about that. (pause) And then there was like,15 minutes left and like, our session ends up not happening, I'm pretty relieved, and then we all like, take a bus home. And I come home and Jeremy is still awake and... Like, I feel like I have like, opened a new chapter or something, or being transformed by this day. Jeremy is so psyched, because one of his good friends like, wants him to... design his like, wardrobe or something. He starts talking about it and then, I woke up.

THERAPIST: Wardrobe, as in like, a piece of wooden furniture, or is it clothing? [00:54:21]

CLIENT: Like, tee shirts. (therapist affirms) Then the last thing I remember is Jeremy tells me, "Oh, I'm going to have him wear like, musicaland athletic-themed original art like, on his shirts." (pause) Then I awoke and I wrote it down.

THERAPIST: (pause) And you felt okay?

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. Oh, actually, no! I felt... I think that was our last time seeing each other in the dream.

THERAPIST: Oh! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Sorry! It's not surprising that I forgot that, because... (pause) Well, because when I woke up, I felt super, I felt like, so energized that I had this dream and like, I felt really energized to like, think about it and to write it down and tell you about it. I felt so sad because I like, wasn't going to see you again like, to tell you about it. That was my first thought when I woke up. [00:55:55]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: It's not surprising that I just forgot to tell you about it, because it was terribly unpleasant.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But in the dream, I was... I missed the new chapter thing makes more sense now. Like, I had felt, I felt like I was open, I was like, starting a new chapter (therapist responds), yeah (inaudible).

(pause) I had a pretty long and lovely bubble bath on Tuesday, during which I... It was like a very del ... I'm just telling you this, because I think it informs a lot of the rings of ejaculate type. This was a bath about like, self like, okay. I have some like, glowing, very loving compassionate like, thing in me and I really like, want it to sooth me. Like, I don't, I don't know like, why it's not coming out and it's sort of like a desperation. So this bath was like, I had like, this in mind. (pause) But it's not as... forced as it sounds. It was just like, "Hey, let's like, find that part." [00:58:13]

THERAPIST: I think it's (inaudible) took a bath, could be relaxing, soothing, and also you were hoping it would give some space for this part to come out? (client affirms) Because... you needed it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I really needed it. So, I masturbated in the bath and it was like this long journey of like, stopping and starting, stopping and starting. I'm like playing with lots and lots of types of like, mental and emotional fodder. (therapist affirms) Mostly I like, don't usually like, need to think about anything (therapist affirms)... but on Tuesday I thought a lot about like, women's bodies sort of floating and like, rubbing against each other (therapist responds) and being totally like, aroused by each other. (therapist responds) And like, and sort of cooing and making aroused noises and then like, sometimes it was like, lots of women, sometimes it was like less of them and some men. The women didn't really have (inaudible), they just had beautiful bodies. [01:00:14]

(pause) This was like an hour of like... yeah, just sort of like, digging a little bit and then like, mentally and then like... just touching myself without thinking anything, didn't really think, stopping and starting. At some point, I... sort of like invited you into the bath, because one of the things that I find more useful in fantasizing about like, what I do here is fantasizing about what I would say or do if you were like, with me (therapist responds), where I am. [01:01:18]

(pause) So, I had like about a minute of... you giving me head (therapist affirms) and you're like, forehead line and your ears and your hair and like, the shape of your head and your neck were like, so vivid in my like, hands on either side of your head. (pause) And... It was really arousing. (therapist affirms) It didn't last very long. I couldn't like, handle it for that long. And it also felt like the girls were more in self... soothing or something. [01:02:26]

THERAPIST: (inaudible), I don't understand.

CLIENT: Like, I could self soothe more with the girls (therapist affirms), getting aroused by the girls than you or like, any other men. (pause) It also, at some point during this like vitalize (ph) a painting. And I'm... whatever I feel, I like to paint and what I look like and how it would be a practice that I would... that would feel like if like, if everybody had a lot to say in painting. So I, it was like a... lesbian orgy abstract oil painting and masturbation journey. And then (inaudible) and a candle in the dark. So it was pretty nice. [01:03:49]

THERAPIST: Sounds pretty nice.

CLIENT: (pause) That was the context for the dream.

THERAPIST: (pause) You sound a lot more at ease.

CLIENT: (pause) Some things make me at ease and some things don't. (pause) It felt good to tell you about it.

THERAPIST: (pause) I just don't get the performative side, as you tell me about it. [01:04:49]

CLIENT: No, there is... there is a lot less performance.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) I imagine like, I'm still being being performative.... (pause) which sucks.

CLIENT: (pause) What do you mean, that it sucks for you?

[pause 01:05:43 to 01:06:00]

THERAPIST: Well... (pause) Um... (weak/inaudible) Um... Until my... I think... it's like I want to be performative or trying to be performative, but... not being like I would and just sort of in conversation. It's like, in some ways it can, it could be useful, not because of that, but... probably not saying... [01:07:13]

CLIENT: (pause) Many people give (inaudible) attractive at times.

THERAPIST: (pause) I don't know, but sometimes I talk kind of casually, but not really. (client affirms)

[pause 01:07:43 to 01:08:22]

But, I am very glad for the way that you're feeling more at ease. (client affirms)

[pause 01:08:25 to 01:08:56]

And like, I don't know, but all of us are alike, and I am sorry for the way this... can be so difficult and painful.

[pause 01:09:13 to 01:09:46]

CLIENT: I don't accept the apology.

THERAPIST: Why not? (pause) Because I'm contributing to that in ways that you feel I (inaudible)?

CLIENT: I don't know what you want to do. (pause) I trust you, that you're doing what you're supposed to do and not anything that will, would cause more suffering. (pause) I guess it doesn't feel like it, that's just "I'm sorry." (pause) Feels like you're not like, here. You're not like, what you (inaudible). (pause) Maybe you're not. I mean... I don't know. It feels like a, you know, kind of distance between you and I. [01:11:30]

THERAPIST: How?

CLIENT: (pause) And like ignoring how important it is to... sort of... take ownership of your role as the guide or view that as your role.

(pause) It's kind of like... you have this guide, and the guide... You're like, trekking in the Himalayas or something, and the guide doesn't know where... like, where the two of you are going. But the guide has like, went on the, in the mountains for his whole life and speaks some of the languages and sort of like knows, knows how not to die, basically. [01:12:32]

And... you like, have to wade this river and... This is the way forward and you get all wet and you get like... hypothermia or something. The guide is like, "I'm sorry that you waded through that river. I'm sorry that you had to do that."

The sentiment feels right, but like, the words, well it's like, "Well, if you could have prevented it, then you should have, because that really sucked." Or like, "If you really are like, an equal member of this journey, and you're using your abilities the best you can, and we had to wade through the river, then like, you did it, too." Except in this, it's heart, it's the heart. [01:13:50]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I didn't (inaudible), but I (inaudible). Um...

CLIENT: And like, it would, might be more like, more reassuring or meaningful to be like, "This is the way of trekking, and you did a good job. (pause) And like, that happened to me, too, one time," or something. (laughs)

(pause) Do you want any other ideas of things to say? (therapist chuckles) That was funny. [01:14:42]

THERAPIST: (pause) Um... I think you're doing a good job trekking and crossing rivers, but... You're all entirely backing up what I said, because... (pause) to me, to go from, "I'm sorry this is so hard" to "You're doing a good job" moves from how much you're hurting and my... the attempt to recognize that and sort of, in some ways "I'm moved by it" to "You're performing well" is not something... because I don't think you're performing well, but... you did. Perhaps what I mean... [01:16:11]

CLIENT: (weak/inaudible) (pause) Maybe you could say... "I recognize how much you're hurting and I am moved by it." (pause) Or maybe I could just interpret it that way, whenever you say "I'm sorry."

[pause 01:16:44 to 01:17:51]

THERAPIST: Do you think or... worried less that we're therapeutically incompatible?

CLIENT: (pause) I worry that this is too much for me... to go on. (pause) And sometimes it strengthens my resolve to go on, to defend this in... to defend this like, with Jeremy and sometimes it weakens it. It feels like I don't have a language to describe why this is important. I sort of do, but it usually has me crying and not like, really being able to express in words, you know, this is so important. And you've helped me to hear more of your soapbox. (ph)

[pause 01:19:22 to 01:20:12]

THERAPIST: Um... this is a short trip to the soapbox today. I think... sometimes I'm feeling heartbreak and, in a way that's far from/over-helping (ph) you with goals and (inaudible)... which... I'm really (inaudible) which I'm probably the most important source of suffering in your life.

CLIENT: (pause) Really?

[pause 01:21:19 to 01:21:59]

How long is it going to take?

THERAPIST: I really don't know. (pause) I mean, longer than a few months.

CLIENT: I don't know... if I care how long it's going to take, apart from... from the need to like, manage other people's expectations.

[pause 01:22:32 to 01:22:51]

THERAPIST: I think, basically I know that the usual length of analysis is one or two years.

CLIENT: (affirms) (pause) Does it surprise you that I feel like I'm, I like, stumbled into this by accident?

THERAPIST: (pause) Nope.

CLIENT: Do you think that's usually how it is?

THERAPIST: (pause) It's (chuckles) not important. Why, that's always how it is. (client affirms) Nobody knows what they're getting into. I mean, even somebody like... in the field, blah blah blah, doesn't really know what's going to come up for them or have it's going to play out. You know... right now, where I knew like, more or less what the parameters would be and... somehow it can go as usual, but... [01:23:59]

CLIENT: I think that's the decision to be, in a way that I am here (therapist affirms) that feels like... I didn't really decide.

THERAPIST: (affirms) (pause) It's unconscious. There is some part of you that... knew it or felt something or recognized something. [01:24:57]

CLIENT: (pause) That's very shaky grounds for like... a career, or like, an academic field, hoping that people will like, unconsciously be attracted to... training their therapy that happens over there into an analysis, or starting out like, cold in analysis. It seems like people decide to do it like, based on more concrete things.

THERAPIST: No. (pause) No. I mean... no. [01:25:59]

CLIENT: (pause) So how do you explain it? How do you justify it? And how do you plan for it? And how do you make room for it?

THERAPIST: (pause) It seems like it could be helpful for somebody, I tell them about it. (pause) I try to answer their questions and... explain, as sort of particularly as I can, how... I think it would be an opportunity to work on whatever is there. (inaudible) (pause) But it's mostly an unconscious decision. I mean, and there is some kind of factor like, for like, since I know that it's really causing them a lot of grief in one way or another... (pause) Yours are usually unconscious, too. Like, or at least in that one video, everybody says time and money and like, they're important, but that's usually not really what it's about. [01:27:41]

CLIENT: I want way more than getting... I don't have any fears like that, that I know. (pause) By the way...

THERAPIST: But... six and a half months ago, you did. You didn't know a lot about them, but in hindsight, you saw how they were there. (client affirms) If I had said, "It's initiative! You shouldn't be going down to once a week, you should be going up!" You would have said, "Why?" I don't know, hopefully it wasn't, but you know what I mean, I think. Like, or at least in a silly, very hypothetical way, what I'm getting at like... (pause) I don't know, maybe I'm not giving you enough credit. [01:29:05]

CLIENT: I think it's been... accurate.

THERAPIST: Um... maybe clear. I... I'd be happy to see you on days you want to come in, I think it could help. (pause)You mentioned it a few times, I think last time, too.

[pause 01:29:45 to 01:30:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, well, I don't know if I can give anymore, with respect to that. (therapist responds) (pause) I... I would love to have more contact with you, but I don't know how that would work.

THERAPIST: (pause) At least you'd stop hurting. (ph)

[pause 01:30:38 to 01:31:45]

CLIENT: Okay.

[pause 01:31:46 to 01:32:16]

THERAPIST: (weak/inaudible)

CLIENT: (inaudible) (pause) I'm not being the same (ph). See ya!

THERAPIST: See ya.

END TRANSCRIPT