TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Although I'm feeling bad because I forgot to mention on Monday that I'm out this coming Monday.

CLIENT: I was wondering.

THERAPIST: But I do have some other times next week.

CLIENT: I'm so excited that you're taking a Monday holiday. I am.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: It's really good. It's important.

(Pause): [00:00:30 00:00:42]

THERAPIST: That you're worried about my workaholism?

CLIENT: Yes. I'm not worried, but I notice it.

(Pause): [00:00:47 00:00:58]

CLIENT: Are you a self-described workaholic?

THERAPIST: No. I would not no

CLIENT: I don't know that I would use that word but I'd take a lot of Monday holidays if (cross talk)..

THERAPIST: That's true. I don't take a lot of time off.

CLIENT: I wonder if, when you're done with your analysis, we'll take my time off.

(Pause): [00:01:24 00:01:33]

CLIENT: You want a strawberry?

THERAPIST: Sure. Thanks. Or a lot?

CLIENT: Or a lot?

THERAPIST: Just one, thank you.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: I could meet next week at on Tuesday at 1 o'clock. Sorry 12:45. Or on Wednesday at 9:15.

CLIENT: Okay,

THERAPIST: Either of those.

CLIENT: I think Wednesday at 9.

THERAPIST: Both of those are good for you. Okay.

(Pause): [00:02:27 00:00:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah? Thanks for the strawberry. It was good.

CLIENT: Sure.

(Pause): [00:02:43 00:03:06]

CLIENT: Do you have time tomorrow?

THERAPIST: I may. I will know (Pause) -

CLIENT: Okay. (Pause) (Unclear) before four.

THERAPIST: Before four? Okay.

(Pause): [00:03:37 00:04:02]

CLIENT: Do you want another one?

THERAPIST: Sure.

(Pause): [00:04:00 00:04:20]

CLIENT: Where are you going?

THERAPIST: Probably nowhere. Maybe the Hamptons.

CLIENT: (Cross talk)

THERAPIST: But probably nowhere.

(Pause): [00:04:32 00:05:01]

CLIENT: It's been a super hard week.

(Pause): [00:05:04 00:05:32]

CLIENT: I feel really, really bad about the (inaudible). I had a really nice time though. I like (unclear).

(Pause): [00:05:54 00:06:00]

CLIENT: Whenever I have the (unclear) feeling when I feel like I'm thinking of you.

(Pause): [00:06:01 00:06:30]

CLIENT: It feels, I feel during the times which are like Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, for like two or three hours in the evening, I feel like I'm spinning my wheels and I don't know like really not confident with therapy so there's all this there's like the first arrow of (unclear) with it but then arrow teaching. It's like you had struck with an arrow and don't or a student were entering my (unclear) inflict himself with more and more wounds, more and more arrows. I'm wondering if I were a man but better yet struck with arrows, but why in the same side as last time, like who did it and how can I prevent this from happening. I started wondering a lot about things that cause more suffering so teaching is like add more arrows.

(Pause): [00:08:20 00:08:27]

CLIENT: So the first arrow is so foreign and scary and bad and the other arrows are about like really like trying to look at the first arrow and (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:08:55 00:09:06]

THERAPIST: What have you seen?

CLIENT: Like why haven't we all died already? Like, why I don't want to do anything. I'm deeply, deeply uncomfortable. I would like to prefer to have something, I just want to release them. There isn't a lot of like object to it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It sounds like it has that kind of, sort of (unclear) like awful, depressive, it just hurts a lot and you're not exactly there it seems like.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:10:25 00:10:44]

CLIENT: (Unclear) to be around during the day, but there's so much more buoyancy. I feel so much more buoyant (unclear), especially in the morning.

(Pause): [00:10:55 00:11:10]

CLIENT: And the days feel like enormous, they just feel so long.

(Pause): [00:11:11 00:11:17]

CLIENT: These feelings are related to a lot of creativity, not like more has resulted, like my feeling like I need to just like be engaged in something to make it less scary. Not that I want to run away from it or change it or make it go a way I would kind of like it to go away, but, yeah, my sittings during these periods are like different and (unclear). [00:12:07]

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: Like I'm so desperate to be held that I figure out a way to hold myself, mostly through like metaphases and these days, imagery of a garden. Some of it is guided by you but I just (inaudible) and some of it (inaudible). And in painting -

THERAPIST: You paint anyway.

CLIENT: I don't. I painted for the first time on Tuesday and I've messed around with color a lot in my life, but -

THERAPIST: Do you draw?

CLIENT: No. I have a terrible spatial sense, but I have a pretty powerful relationship with color. So I bought canvas. I bought 3" x 3" and 6" x 6" beautiful canvas and I have paints from when I painted a bunch of terra cotta pots last year, they're acrylic and I have a brush and I turned on some this woman's music. Kind of intense, intense exploratory woman-centered R&B, and painted for two hours and it was amazing. I mean it didn't come from nowhere. Like I felt inspired to paint after I went to Ellen's studio (inaudible). And I've been thinking a lot about painting ever since. And the other creative outlet has been sex and that's also been profound and different from (inaudible). [00:14:32]

(Pause): [00:15:01 00:15:09]

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: Less uninhibited and more focused, more intuitive and more like needing it.

(Pause): [00:15:25 00:15:42]

CLIENT: You had more (unclear).

THERAPIST: I had a thought. I wondered if there was something about my later failure to respond to your, the first part of your list on Monday that -

CLIENT: What's the first part?

THERAPIST: The conflict of -

CLIENT: Yeah, the love part.

THERAPIST: I wasn't thinking of a particular item, but (pause) I did not, in a way I would imagine you would have expected, like, I did not sit here and refute all of the cons and tell you, you know, you have to say it, you know, like 'no, no. Lies! (Unclear).'

CLIENT: You're never going to do that.

THERAPIST: How do you know I'm never going to do that? But that doesn't mean you wouldn't feel something from my not having done that.

CLIENT: I think I was satisfied because you asked a lot of questions and in some sense that's your (unclear) for showing maybe fear showing you give a shit.

THERAPIST: Really.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I guess it's (Pause) -

CLIENT: For something like a pro/con list.

(Pause): [00:17:34 00:18:55]

THERAPIST: I think it's kind of simple like that.

CLIENT: Goodness.

THERAPIST: (Chuckles) Sometimes I ask questions because I've questions and sometimes I don't have questions and it doesn't mean I'm not getting shit. I do think you, like you kind of made it clear that you feel my interest in my asking questions and then it may feel as if I'm not.

CLIENT: Yeah. There are fewer options for if you speak. Like fewer possible interpretations. If you don't speak, there are more possible interpretations that are farther apart from each other interpretations of what it means, what you're saying it means.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Jeremy doesn't seem to understand this either. I'm sure you understand it. But maybe you don't.

THERAPIST: (Laughs) I mean, well yeah. My silence if more ambiguous.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And so it leaves you pretty disoriented to where I am.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Whereas, you know, asking questions at least locates me and -

CLIENT: It could be just one slice of a larger but yeah it feels like it could confuse. (Pause) I mean I got that I try not to think too much about what you're thinking. It's really hard but it's not much of a battle.

(Pause): [00:21:40 00:21:53]

CLIENT: Do people, like your patients, or people in your life, criticize you for not like being totally here? For being (unclear), distracted.

THERAPIST: (Clears throat).

(Pause): [00:22:17 00:22:45]

THERAPIST: Well, I'm going to hold off a minute in answering your question the way you asked it. I mean, obviously what I'm taking from your question is that I've been that way with you.

CLIENT: No. I think I've been thinking that my experience with Jeremy has made me react so differently to that sort of thing and I don't ever feel like you're (unclear) or distracted but you often ask me if I do. So I wonder where that comes from.

THERAPIST: When you say that experience of Jeremy, Jeremy is that way?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I see. And I asked you if I seem that way, even though I don't seem that way.

CLIENT: Even though, that's not how I -

THERAPIST: I don't seem that way to you.

CLIENT: Well, I could see how someone would think that you were being (unclear) with it. I don't. That's how I react to (unclear). [00:23:59]

THERAPIST: No not generally.

CLIENT: So when you ask me that, it's because it seems that that's what I -

THERAPIST: I thought that's what you meant. Yeah.

CLIENT: But in general, not feeling it a lot.

THERAPIST: I was sure I asked you if I seemed that way to you. I guess what I feel pretty, sort of conscious of, which I think is there often for you, but maybe I'm wrong, is a sense of my being kind of in role.

CLIENT: Being what?

THERAPIST: In a role.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think you are in a role. Yeah.

(Pause): [00:25:09 00:25:17]

CLIENT: That seems self-evident to me.

(Pause): [00:25:18 00:25:29]

CLIENT: I mean it seems like a role that you believe in and are comfortable inhabiting and are getting a lot out of. And you believe it helps me get out of this, but it's a role.

(Pause): [00:25:55 00:26:27]

THERAPIST: Which is I think, it's quite different than an awful you know -

(Pause): [00:26:31 00:27:05]

CLIENT: I was going to say bastard, but -

(Pause): [00:27:10 00:27:27]

CLIENT: I don't know, I think I look up to you. But it didn't feel good.

(Pause): [00:27:32 00:28:01]

CLIENT: But I was unsatisfied with how, when I asked, 'how can you be the analyst of somebody you think is beautiful?' and you said, "That's a loaded question in a lot of different ways." I wanted to know more about that. For that was deeply unsatisfying to me, I think.

(Pause): [00:28:31 00:28:37]

THERAPIST: Because it got nowhere near addressing your question?

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:28:37 00:28:42]

CLIENT: Yeah, and got like nowhere near addressing why you're not going to address it.

(Pause): [00:28:46 00:29:17]

THERAPIST: Well it relates to questions and issues around my being attracted to you and depending on that, how I'll be able to work with you.

(Pause): [00:29:33 00:30:16]

THERAPIST: And I guess it would hurt if I thought I couldn't work with you, I would consider it terribly irresponsible of me not to have to say something or (unclear) something as soon as I had a sense of that and I yeah.

(Pause): [00:30:41 00:30:49]

THERAPIST: (Unclear), I guess (unclear) I'm not it would seem to me it would be pretty clear based on things I've said or what (unclear) when talking about why I wouldn't say much about that. Part three. Maybe not, but maybe it's a little provocative of a question. I had that thought.

CLIENT: It's totally provocative.

THERAPIST: After (laughs).

CLIENT: I'm trying to provoke you. And I don't think just because you've explained it before it doesn't mean you can get out of explaining it again.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: Like you should explain it every time.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: (Laughs) I think it should be a case by case basis.

THERAPIST: Okay.

(Pause): [00:32:00 00:32:10]

CLIENT: I'll say one thing about why I'm interested in the question.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Other than like wanting to know (inaudible).

THERAPIST: And provoking me.

CLIENT: And provoking you.

THERAPIST: I wonder what happens to beauty during this process (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:32:28 00:32:36]

CLIENT: Like if you are, if you're trying to sort of like peel away the layers or like catch the egg, or however you want to put it, what are there things that are beautiful that remain beautiful in the same way the whole way through? Or is everything sort of changed, and different things emerge as being more moving and attractive? Like the more you know somebody, does the person become a lot less attractive than was (unclear) in this way?

(Pause): [00:33:23 00:33:51]

CLIENT: Physical attraction is so (Pause) important. And it's there and it informs a lot of things.

(Pause): [00:34:08 00:34:44]

THERAPIST: I mean in those ways I guess, well, being a little schematic about it, there's like the answer to those questions like for me from my side and for you on your side and I mean I couldn't be to both and from my side it's like both sexual and familiar as there are in any relationships where you get to know somebody better over time then some people that's uncomfortable for, and others (unclear) and some of those maybe more attractive less and less and the relationship (unclear). And sort of generally, the trajectory is hard to be more particular than that. Seen for your side, I mean like some things that you feel or sense about me will probably emerge as being more projective and some won't. And you know, that's kind of I don't mean to make it sound like you're kind of particular or anything, unlike other sort of close relations in life that sort of would be like certain of the ways your friends would be kind of fading or really didn't work, or emerging as clearly productive and other things that won't. And I wouldn't want to try to predict what's left. But if some days you come to what seems like you've changed, but other things are (unclear) as well. [00:35:47]

(Pause): [00:37:50 00:38:17]

CLIENT: You steered the conversation from the darkness that (unclear) to -

THERAPIST: I wondered if some of the dark like, (unclear) to the darkness had to do with that reaction I had to it.

CLIENT: I don't know. I think -

THERAPIST: Yeah, you seem to really -

CLIENT: I think it had to do with wanting to (inaudible). And it has to do with wanting to (inaudible). But that might not be correct.

(Pause): [00:39:06 00:39:14]

THERAPIST: Wanting (unclear) but not (unclear) anymore?

(Pause): [00:39:14 00:39:46]

CLIENT: I don't think feeling really badly these last few days wouldn't be there if I were coming in this office and wanting to have a little different color.

(Pause): [00:40:03 00:40:14]

CLIENT: And texture.

THERAPIST: And a different shape.

CLIENT: Different shape.

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:40:26 00:40:32]

THERAPIST: Well what do you have in mind about how?

CLIENT: About how? How I would be different? Well I don't know if I would have painted. I don't know that I would have like dug so deep sexually or in medication. I think this would be my main practice and I would be really relieved to have it much more than like the other practices that I (unclear). [00:41:23]

I think more would come. Like I think so much and I have so much to say and like some of that goes somewhere. It goes to (unclear). It goes into it gets converted into something. And some of it would just like be, that wouldn't happen that much. And I would feel more stable. I think I would also feel pretty anxious about some of the things I (unclear) with such as (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:42:26 00:42:38]

CLIENT: Basically, pushing that over the edge and like, because it's the right time.

(Pause): [00:42:53 00:43:00]

CLIENT: I can imagine that this would take on such a different character like some other time. For example, with children. I think children I mean, like, is so different.

(Pause): [00:43:17 00:43:31]

CLIENT: Maybe easier, maybe harder, maybe both.

(Pause): [00:43:35 00:43:44]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Especially when they're real little. Yeah, yeah, could be so less free then (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Especially in the head way. (inaudible) pretty much. [00:44:19]

CLIENT: But there's also that like little dose of oxytocin

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: Which can carry you through a lot.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:44:32 00:44:39]

CLIENT: And the more your children experience pain is no different. So there is like, it could be, or I've found that it's really, really helpful to be around children and to see things with those fresh ways of looking. (Pause) It's also probably incredibly desired in your end to feel so disoriented like I do here and always as a result of this and then have to like care for someone or show someone how to be.

(Pause): [00:44:44 00:46:00]

CLIENT: That's what has come to mind recently.

(Pause): [00:46:01 00:46:12]

CLIENT: It's not that like I wish I had children in order to go through things but it just speaks to how different different times are.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:46:29 00:46:44]

CLIENT: Then, once normal, the I don't know what that means, but I think it means like figuring out this process. Figuring out a process that involves Jeremy and it involves myself only and so like painting is like so incredible for him. He just sort of like circles around me for a while, not like looking at what I was painting, just sort of in awe of how wonderful that thing that is happening in his house was.

THERAPIST: You feel like he would (unclear)?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: I would be here and also feeling like (unclear)?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think his relationship with me (unclear) change. But yeah, right now I'm like meditating. He's respectful of it and he wants, if I want it to be a lifelong practice he wants (inaudible). But he likes hearing about it.

(Pause): [00:48:22 00:48:35]

CLIENT: I keep trying to think whether my dedication to graduate school would be different if (unclear) were different. And what it would be like and am I totally screwing myself over it?

(Pause): [00:48:49 00:48:56]

CLIENT: Is this an unwise thing to be doing at this time from this different (unclear)? And I keep like not really coming out to any degree. Like, no I don't think my dedication is being effected. And I think things could be much worse with school, but you know.

(Pause): [00:49:25 00:50:40]

THERAPIST: Well, this is like mostly with the one quite important exception of thinking of you and Jeremy, the main thing this really messes up is interning. I mean -

CLIENT: Okay. I feel pretty off. I think I would feel off, wouldn't I? I must become experienced but I feel like I'm subject to like different (unclear) courses very, very, very fundamental.

THERAPIST: Yeah, you've been pretty swallowed up like that for the last few days. I mean, among other times, but -

CLIENT: I think I mean I've been feeling pretty off as a result of this, for months.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I do feel I would feel off, anyway, and that is clear from how I've been doing the last few days. And then when they come together I don't know. Sometimes it's better than either one alone than the way it works.

(Pause): [00:52:38 00:52:49]

THERAPIST: What's been on your mind that's been feeling so bad?

(Pause): [00:52:54 00:53:12]

CLIENT: There's no one, like, no object.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I guess what's on my mind is mostly a reaction and like different values are that feel so bad.

THERAPIST: What values?

(Pause): [00:53:33 00:53:47]

CLIENT: Like complete emptiness.

(Pause): [00:52:48 00:53:54]

CLIENT: Like I've lost my compass or something.

(Pause): [00:53:54 00:54:07]

THERAPIST: But this is not just a break you're talking about.

(Pause): [00:5:08 00:54:24]

THERAPIST: It sounds much more like sort of a disoriented (unclear) and kind of primitive.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's a great word. Wow. What a great word.

(Pause): [00:54:43 00:54:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and there are, oh, sort of volumes of different kinds of like words like primitive, like (unclear) like that.

CLIENT: Like in humans, or like in books written about humans?

THERAPIST: Both. The second with the first (unclear). Yeah.

CLIENT: Huh. I wonder if the relief I just felt in hearing an accurate description of what I'm feeling would (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:56:03 00:56:35]

THERAPIST: And I also (inaudible) which are in a way, sort of vaguely (inaudible).

(Pause): [00:56:52 00:57:04]

CLIENT: Hmm no.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:57:04 00:57:11]

CLIENT: If anything comes to mind, that is like somewhat pleasurable to read in terms of the clarity of the writing, and the lack of jargon, (unclear).

(Pause): [00:57:25 00:57:35]

CLIENT: Yeah, and it feels like I should just be dead and it feels strange that like I'm still alive and feeling this way, while I'm feeling this way, like this is not a valid way to be and that is what's adding so much more suffering. Like I'm spending a whole lot of time sort of like resisting and wondering why it's there and you know, wondering if I should like like what I need to change. And that takes up so much energy this very thought.

THERAPIST: What I guess is a it's almost, I think, like a kind of a form of denial.

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: Well, like as though you have any control over it, really.

CLIENT: Sure. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And (Pause) as though like, as though, yeah, like a supposed to do kind of a thing.

(Pause): [00:59:26 00:59:38]

THERAPIST: Though I think it's also probably true that like it's totally sort of true that it's like not okay if you don't know that in addition to feeling this way that you have a sense you shouldn't. It's not right. It's not something.

CLIENT: Well, it feels like it's going to kill me. Like, not in a violent, murderous way, but it's just (inaudible).

(Pause): [1:00:22 1:00:31]

CLIENT: It's very hard to stand by for that.

(Pause): [1:0 0:35 1:00:45]

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: It's terrible.

THERAPIST: And this must be so the worst you've felt ever before.

CLIENT: I think it's the worst I've ever felt.

(Pause): [1:01:00 1:01:21]

THERAPIST: Maybe in some way that part of it is good that I've completely under counted.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [1:01:31 1:01:39]

THERAPIST: And maybe hugely far away from being helped.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [1:01:41 1:01:49]

CLIENT: I wonder why like why I have felt this way before and where have you been. And I think the nature of how I've been helped like didn't allow for it, or it didn't let it come.

THERAPIST: Um hmm.

CLIENT: Whereas like I've been sort of taking hold of like people's first like memories of darkness and it's really hard to describe what I mean, but like you got lots of different answers from people in America where people have felt really dark like much earlier for me. And there's the impression I have that people just have a little bit more confidence. I think that's a strange word, but you know, experience. So I think that does a lot for how much it shapes a person.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean it may have a lot to do with how we can change our family.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean it's kind of, I think, it's I think, it's not the same, but maybe it's maybe been analogous to like a sort of more of a cultural narrative about that with sexuality here, how uncomfortable and how forbidden, how (unclear), how shameful.

(Pause): [1:04:15 1:04:20]

CLIENT: So my dad's brother committed suicide (unclear) and I don't know what the relationship with darkness was before that but I think that is the way in which people have reacted to it and shaped some of the later, formed a precedent for not really doing better at protecting children.

THERAPIST: And most of that isn't much, too.

CLIENT: Out of what?

THERAPIST: So much darkness.

CLIENT: Yes.

(Pause): [1:05:00 1:01:05]

THERAPIST: Like simultaneously the better way and like -

CLIENT: Well, that comes up for my dad like every week.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It came up because I'm trying to tell my mom a little bit about this which I didn't really want to do but I did and she started talking about medication and she talked about how it's a bad idea to stop taking it and she listened a lot and I don't know, I talked about like I know you're not very concerned and practical about it, but you know, okay, these periods of darkness are coming and I need to strike a balance between like being in them and not feeling like I'm going to get dyed (sp?).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Because that's not terribly practical in such a you know, like where I have a lot of responsibilities, not really, but I feel like I have to perform with it.

THERAPIST: You mean like, you're concerned about functioning through that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [1:07:03 10:07:22]

THERAPIST: And it also feels like I think I'm kind of behind the black ball, how much this is affecting you and I not saying necessarily you think this in your head, but like in not talking more about the practicalities or strategies or something like that I gather, well, it feels like you said though, that I'm not concerned with them. Which I'm not, actually. It's true, I don't talk about them or about strategies really. But it's not because I don't care about those things or think they're important. It's more to do with like that in a way in direct opposition to my particular job but it's not that I think it's a bad thing, it just conflicts with how I'm trying to help.

CLIENT: Well, it sorts of creates the seed for another therapist.

THERAPIST: What is it that you want? I mean like, are you talking about strategically what to do when, you know, you're feeling as bad as you have been, and you've got to work on a talk that you're giving in a couple of days and -?

CLIENT: I don't know.

(Pause): [1:09:24 1:09:38]

CLIENT: No. I don't need help with that. I think I'm talking about like I have very little control over this, but I have a little bit of control over how it shapes my life; what my reaction is to it and what I choose to expose myself to during the period, during the time.

(Pause): [1:10:12 1:10:21]

CLIENT: And what I choose to focus on and like having some kind of predictability when I feel so bad, would be incredibly comforting.

THERAPIST: Do you mean like in the way of techniques or strategies to help you -

CLIENT: Or just like something that I believe in at a time like it feels like I have no (inaudible).

(Pause): [1:11:01 1:11:06]

CLIENT: You know, so like, meditation or sex or art.

(Pause): [1:11:08 10:11:14]

CLIENT: These things have had a way of like, basically, like cutting off the crust so that I don't feel like I'm about to die but leaving the rest of it. But I could react in a totally different way. I could like go to sleep, or I could like take medication or I could talk. I could my mom made a very clear commitment to like being a person that I can call and I made it very clear that I could not call her if she was going to try to fix anything. She heard that and said this is my (unclear). [1:12:13]

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, the other therapist would sorry, go ahead, am I interrupting you?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Would -

CLIENT: Am I, why are you going back to that?

THERAPIST: Oh, well, it seemed to me that partly this was what this was about would talk to you about more of these things.

CLIENT: Yeah. And like the fifteen times that I make okay, I'm going to change something with Jay. I'm going to see him more. Like what do I do with that?

(Pause): [1:13:00 1:13:17]

THERAPIST: Well, I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you saying, 'you said that,' and I haven't said, 'well, how about these times?'

CLIENT: No. I say that to myself when I'm feeling really badly.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I don't know what to do with those thoughts.

(Pause): [1:13:28 1:13:37]

CLIENT: So I guess I want some help in some kind of like holistic strategy in a time when there are probably no strategies.

(Pause): [1:13:53 1:14:02]

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: I think so.

(Pause): [1:14:04 1:14:10]

CLIENT: I want to be (unclear) like that because I don't think it can be, but -

THERAPIST: And, I -

(Pause): [1:14:17 1:14:22]

THERAPIST: I'm not meaning this as like copping out myself, but I was like, in talking about you that, I mean, the things that you're doing meditating, art, sex, calling your mom and making sure she has instructions about how not to do this like, to my mind sound like as good as it gets.

CLIENT: Thanks.

(Pause): [1:14:53 1:15:12]

THERAPIST: Writing is also another cushioning, but you do that sometimes.

CLIENT: No. Not very much.

THERAPIST: I'm thinking of some (unclear) like (unclear).

CLIENT: (inaudible) yeah. But I don't, yeah, I don't very often (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah, that could be good. But then, that's really like a yoga class. They're hard to be alone.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And somehow, like meditation and thinking, I don't (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(Pause): [1:16:01 1:16:14]

CLIENT: And your role in all of this?

THERAPIST: As far as talking with you about it? Or as far as like I've other things I can do when you're feeling that way to help.

CLIENT: (inaudible).

(Pause): [1:16:35 1:17:06]

THERAPIST: I think you are experiencing me as being incredibly inflexible, among other things. And at other times, blah, blah, blah. But I think I have the big part of like what's going on with you and you've felt that I am not there for you.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: When you really need me to be.

(Pause): [1:17:40 1:17:44]

CLIENT: But I'm confused about that. I don't know whether I need you or not.

(Pause): [1:17:46 1:17:57]

CLIENT: But it feels like need.

THERAPIST: Okay. Look at that. That's how it looks to you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [1:18:02 1:18:18]

THERAPIST: And nothing I could say would make up for that.

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Nothing I can say can make up for that.

CLIENT: Nothing you can say now?

THERAPIST: Yes. I mean, this is something I think we can make better over time or that I expect you will like continue to work through, but that said, I'm happy to also my point is, I'm happy to help talk and think about strategy. It seems like there's really little danger of losing the big picture here in doing that which is genuinely my concern.

CLIENT: No, the big picture is like the (unclear).

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's like an IMAX movie in front of you all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's more so than that. Like it's not just that like I feel like we're going to talk about exactly where you should go running in your new running boots or something like that and forget all about anxieties. It's nothing like that. It's more like -

CLIENT: (inaudible).

THERAPIST: I'm happy to talk about it (Laugh), but -

CLIENT: (Laughs)

THERAPIST: But you know, often like in a lot of moments there's an opportunity to like sort of go into the darkness, or go away from it. It's so easy, so often, to find reasons to go away from it.

CLIENT: (Unclear)

THERAPIST: Together.

CLIENT: Where like talking about strategy might be a way of going?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean in a way one thing that's like it was very clearly and I think one of like as a kind of through lines we've been talking about over the months is how much more you actually bring it here. A few months ago you (unclear) really sad and I don't feel that way now but I can tell you kind of about it. And I don't have the impression you're feeling now quite like you were probably last night or Tuesday night. But I imagine it's not that kind of in the room, it's not that far. See, that's the thing. (Pause) You always have to like be careful to steer away from. It is kind of like we won't go into that. Anyway, that said, like we're not going to talk about honeymoons or -

CLIENT: I think the only thing that makes me feel like there's an out is talking on the phone like whenever I want to. And I think I know what that is. I guess it's wanting to be held.

THERAPIST: Sure.

(Pause): [1:22:23 1:23:25]

CLIENT: Do I have your card?

THERAPIST: Yeah, of course you can have my card.

CLIENT: Can I have it now?

THERAPIST: Sure.

(Pause): [1:23:31 1:23:42]

THERAPIST: We're going to have to stop in a couple of minutes or so but I had another thought. I think last Thursday, I think. No it was Monday when you told me I was supposed to be digitally a heavy and kick you out and be like 'hey, it's time to get out of here.'

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [1:23:59 1:24:14]

THERAPIST: I guess it's easier to think of me telling you to go like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Much easier, I think.

(Pause): [1:24:18 1:24:30]

THERAPIST: We only have about two minutes of pros. Is that -?

CLIENT: I think I should read the cons again because you're already forgetting about the pros. But I'll trust that you'll remember them.

THERAPIST: Okay, we're all (unclear) been reading them again. (Unclear).

CLIENT: Okay.

(Pause): [1:24:48 1:24:52]

CLIENT: I love you. I love you.

(Pause): [1:24:57 1:25:03]

CLIENT: That's a pro.

(Pause): [1:25:04 1:25:11]

CLIENT: This feels right.

(Pause): [1:25:10 1:25:17]

CLIENT: I'm going to end up doing it anyway, (unclear).

(Pause): [1:25:20 1:25:28]

CLIENT: To see if there's anything I can do in the aftermath.

(Pause): [1:25:31 1:25:38]

CLIENT: I believe that this may (Pause) allow me to have more this won't make any sense, but thoughts. You are the right person. There's this uplift there. (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: I will stop when and if it stops feeling right.

(Pause): [1:26:221:26:28]

CLIENT: This is a chance, or this is an incredible opportunity for a very incredible (inaudible) with the end in this office. This is a twisted but very, very important source of stability. And going forward with you is like an exhilarating unknown abyss.

(Pause): [1:27:13 1:27:36]

THERAPIST: I guess the first off we're going to stop for now is that I could (unclear) you talk to me?

CLIENT: (inaudible).

(Pause): [1:27:49 1:28:05]

CLIENT: I'll (unclear) on the phone. Against all the (unclear). So.

(Pause): [1:28:13 1:28:20]

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

(Pause): [1:28:22 1:28:33]

CLIENT: Are you going to tell me about tomorrow?

THERAPIST: I will tell you, yes, about tomorrow. Before seven.

CLIENT: Okay. You can tell me after seven, too.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT