TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi.

CLIENT: Hi.

THERAPIST: Thank you.

CLIENT: You're welcome.

THERAPIST: (pause) Should I open it right now?

CLIENT: Sure. It's a thank-you note.

THERAPIST: Oh. I don't know whether to say thank you or you're welcome for a thank-you note, but I'll read it and then answer. That's great. (pause) Um... Well... I will say both then. You're very welcome and thank you.

CLIENT: You're welcome. [00:01:05]

THERAPIST: And... I feel very fortunate to know you as well.

CLIENT: (pause) We're coming up on one year, which means... I don't know why it's more embarrassingly late to print out a thank-you note after a year, but somehow it is.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: We spent a bunch of time carving the linocut (therapist affirms) of that and printing it by hand...

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: ...but not one year. I spent like, three months doing that. (therapist affirms) This is a thank-you note that felt really important to me... (pause) not that... like, talking about my wedding feels like a central part of this, necessarily, but this feels like a central part of that chapter which is ending. It feels like it's ending with the end of the thank-you notes. (therapist affirms) (pause) So hence the timing.

[pause 00:02:35 to 00:02:55]

I'm thinking about how we feel fortunate to know each other.

[pause 00:03:00 to 00:03:44]

It's just hard to let that just be the way it is... really.

THERAPIST: (pause) What are you finding yourself wanting to do with it?

CLIENT: Uh... (pause) I think I want to hug you... and... you know, I think want more from you.

[00:04:32 to 00:04:48]

But...

THERAPIST: I don't know if I should (inaudible) it's almost like a disappointment and it's like an appetizer.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause) Writing poems (ph) (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah.

[pause 00:05:12 to 00:05:42]

Have you been to Italy?

THERAPIST: (pause) Not yet.

CLIENT: You should go sometime. I don't know when you would go. (pause) Like, would you go alone? Would you take your family? Would you go soon? (pause) These are the sorts of things I wonder about.

[pause 00:06:23 to 00:07:21]

THERAPIST: I guess I imagine that the tension there is between like... wanting to be like, a good dad and a good family guy, and also... the sort of various ways there being without you (ph). (client affirms)

CLIENT: Well, I think there is also the third thing, which is being there for you.

THERAPIST: (pause) You being there for...?

CLIENT: You being in Italy for you.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: (pause) Like before you knew me or impacted (ph) me... but also for me and with me. [00:08:20]

(pause) I think taking your kids to Italy is a great thing to do. So, it's not so much like, you would not take your kid , you would like, not go now because... it's not good to take your... it's not a good "dad thing" to do, to take your kids to Italy. I just wonder... wonder about your values and what goes into parenting decisions like that. (pause) Not just parenting. This isn't like that.

THERAPIST: (pause) I didn't get the last part. [00:09:20]

CLIENT: Well like, do you value your children seeing that there are other parts of the world? What do you want to do with your money? What season would you go in? Where would you go? What sorts of things would you see?

THERAPIST: (pause) What should I see? (pause) I mean...

CLIENT: Um...

THERAPIST: I would see in a way what I want, I guess (ph) right now is part of what you mean.

CLIENT: I don't know you well enough. (pause) I think you should, I think... Okay, from what I do know and feel... um... textiles and architecture (therapist affirms); but actually, I think it's the sort of place where you should just like, get off the plane and that's all you need to do to see (therapist affirms) what's there. It really brings itself to you, there is no avoiding it. (therapist responds) [00:10:54]

Like... depending on what part of the country, you like, leave the airport and there is like, ten people trying to give you a ride, it's like, four children grabbing onto your clothes. There is... you know, coconut... coconut and coconut juice peddler like, a cell-phone guy, a tobacco guy, you know, get your like, high-school diploma, get your college diploma, learn English... trucks, cows, rickshaws, cars, bicycles, motor scooters, dust, urine, feces and diesel... food, all of those smells. [00:12:06]

(pause) I've only ever been there in the summer, so the heat has a pretty strong (therapist affirms) association with it, with the heat. (pause) There is little time... Taking care of one's body and paying attention to one's mind that is so strongly like, a part of people's lives there, you know, that is taught in schools, but isn't in the news and... (ph). (therapist affirms) You know, my dad and my grandfather, I mean, I don't know what happens now, in the cities especially. It's a lot more like western countries, but when my dad and grandfather were there... they did like, daily yoga. Yoga in Italy, at least the old Italy, is largely a spiritual and meditative practice. [00:13:30]

THERAPIST: I see. It's not like going to kind of yoga classes around here.

CLIENT: No. Like meditation through movement and prayer for (inaudible). But there is also this just like, really strong value of healing and... And then there is like, so many whacked-out people like, pretending to be, or seriously being like, swamis and aesthetics and Brahmans. They all have their like, "thing" that they promise you, or that they do. They do incredible things with their body and their mind. There's a big tradition of like, finding your teacher, especially in the more like, religious areas of the country.

[pause 00:14:23 to 00:15:44]

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: There is too much "trying" going on.

THERAPIST: Huh. Like, from both of us?

CLIENT: Yeah. And what you said at the end of yesterday's session, about what's hard for you. Like, keeping in mind what's central while staying involved. Uh... Yeah, I think you don't have to do that as much.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Oh, really? (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckles) I... I think it comes... I think what's central comes. I think it hides some things. [00:16:56]

THERAPIST: (pause) You mean like, my being "in role" hides some things, or makes it more difficult to get at some things that are sort of central?

CLIENT: (sighs) Well, it just, it makes it harder to explore... everything. (pause) Lots of things get dropped, and lots of things get picked up, and it's not clear why, except that like, you're thinking really hard about what you think is important.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (pause) Sometimes. I don't feel like I always, it feels like I'm always thinking real hard. [00:17:58]

CLIENT: Yeah. Whenever it feels like, anything always is...

THERAPIST: (pause) I guess that's a little like you're saying, you know, "Jay, get the hell out of your head and come like, be here with me."

CLIENT: I think you are here with me. (pause) But... (pause) I don't know.

THERAPIST: It just feels like kind of. (ph)

CLIENT: You are here with me. It would just be nice if you... a, a conversation. [00:18:55]

THERAPIST: I know. (pause) I know. I understand. I think that's central, and I think it is a big deal, and I... kind of can't. (pause) I mean, I don't want to... (inaudible) enjoy that.

[pause 00:19:53 to 00:20:18]

This is like another version of the thing I think you told me a couple of weeks ago I should explain every time. (pause) It turns this into something else. And...

[pause 00:20:40 to 00:21:29]

You know, in perhaps the same way and perhaps in different ways, I guess, depending on the conversations, that, you know... talking about (inaudible) find attractive, you know, make this a different thing.

[pause 00:21:48 to 00:23:30]

And I think, um... I mean, obviously, I don't want to come across as being too uptight about, you know, this being like, terrible, sort of talking to you freely or I'm like, always like, entirely 100% focused on, you know like, whatever is therapeutic in that millisecond, but... I think, you know, there is also...an aspect of it that's like... I want to say like, it just gets in the way of your being able to have what you feel here, if it's going to affect me in a way that changes what we're doing.

(pause) That actually means that there are ways you can do other things that you want me to do, or ways you want them to be that... like... you can't just have as such, but that sort of... you know like, that I'm going to turn this into something else.

[pause 00:25:08 to 00:25:45]

I guess to my mind, it's important for you to be able to... whatever it is, can talk about whatever you want to talk about. Like, some confidence that...

[pause 00:26:09 to 00:26:23]

Yeah... don't say anything about here. (inaudible)

[pause 00:26:31 to 00:26:56]

CLIENT: I'm stopping my feelings (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (pause) To me, it's (inaudible) as well.

CLIENT: (sighs) Not! (ph) It's pretty violent (ph?), I mean, I don't know if I (inaudible) to stop it.

[pause 00:27:15 to 00:27:40]

There is this like, unconscious... um... a sort of (ph) navigation system saying, "We've helped you (inaudible)." I just, I feel like, it's happening, then it like, happens, it sort of always feels like that, here and not here.

[pause 00:28:10 to 00:29:09]

THERAPIST: You mean like... it's like... getting thwarted from where you wanted to go and having to... or you're learning how to get there?

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah, but it's not as... directional and clear as that. (pause) Like, it feels like I can't find you somehow. (pause) I'm floating around, and I'm feeling like... (therapist affirms) [00:30:00]

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah, I don't, I don't... I don't have it (ph) worked out, but I think you kind of need to be... with people you're close to... and who are close to you, somewhat inside the other person, in order to feel at ease... um... oriented, maybe. At ease, definitely; oriented, I'm not sure. But the other piece of it is... that, I think limit (ph) sort of puts constraints on what you can feel. Like, it... that's the part I don't kind of like, have my head around as sort of (inaudible) in that metaphor is like... things like... you know... sorrow and... heartbreak and loss... Somehow, it doesn't... I think, feeling those things isn't compatible with like, seeing these other people in the way they usually are. [00:31:49]

CLIENT: I don't know if they are feeling it, too.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And I feel like I can get inside of them, feel their feelings of internal (ph) heartbreak or loss (therapist affirms), which I see (inaudible) I can. (pause) I think that's pretty right. (therapist affirms) I think you'd be able to do it a lot, with a lot of people as well (therapist affirms) And I don't... believe, I know a lot of people who... do that, based on (inaudible). [00:32:51]

THERAPIST: (pause) I think you've probably imagined... that I... am feeling that way with you, skillfully (ph), that it's sort of like... almost it's like, for me what it is like for you, when you feel that way with someone else.

CLIENT: (pause) (inaudible)

THERAPIST: I think in a way, it's very nice; in a way, you know, not (inaudible), but disconcerting.

CLIENT: Well, the empathy (ph) is dying and just feels like, I really want to go the other way, off and on. [00:33:50]

THERAPIST: I imagine you're probably a control freak there (ph). I don't mean like, you try to control people. I don't think you do, but there is some sense of like... you know, where things are, or feelings I don't feel and like, we're in to where you are and the other person is and...

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I do try to control or I'm not in a relation to the other person. (therapist affirms) And it's not about keeping distance. It's about... sort of like latching... or like go, like digging deep, inside. (therapist affirms)

[pause 00:34:43 to 00:35:01]

So it's... not... (inaudible). And... the way it feels after a break (ph), it's like... in a way that... it doesn't like, feel... (therapist affirms) (pause) And where it is happening here, I... (pause) it's like, very easy active (ph), you know I don't have to guess a lot and like, assume or, and trust a lot (therapist affirms). Like, assume that there are... there is closeness, but closeness that exists, but you feel that you will never tell me that or... what you do tell me, what you do... is... sort of is things like, unique and meaningful and... transformative for you. These are things that seem important to me, like, that may be true. (therapist affirms)

[pause 00:37:00 to 00:37:50]

I'm trying to think of people for whom that was true. Like, where I know that that's the sort of impact I'm having, in the way that I feel like I have some control over... (therapist affirms). (pause) I don't know. I...

THERAPIST: Look, here is another angle. I think this may be part of why like, separation from say, your family like, when you leave their house, your parents' house. It's difficult, because you know them in the same way. I mean... you know, in some way they do, but I think they're probably some pretty immediate, or like, being there and with them, and (client affirms), and that when you're on the train... it's very different. I mean, if you know, kind of... [00:39:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, it is. (pause) And on the train, on the phone and... (inaudible) (therapist affirms) (pause) which like, doesn't happen with my family, but it happens with friends. (therapist affirms) I started feeling (inaudible) a lot, (chuckles) because I will (ph)... accept... the gradual separation... not long (ph). And I'm sure everyone will accept, would accept it at that (inaudible) and I'll feel like, a feeling of (inaudible). (therapist responds) [00:40:17]

THERAPIST: (pause) I guess I feel (inaudible) to, to start off...

CLIENT: What about it?

THERAPIST: (pause) (sighs) Well, it's... It's a point of disconnection from me. I think we've talked about having a reaction to it, sometimes. [00:41:00]

CLIENT: Right, but the stairwell is like a train with no phone. (therapist affirms) (pause) Yeah. (sighs) The only thing that really makes the separate, all of the different separations feel better is like, getting distracted. (therapist responds) It's not like, better... or like, you know, latching to something else like (therapist responds), arriving at my home here and feeling... like, grounded for other reasons, but it's not like I ever feel like I'm inside... the people I'm leaving, in any other way, other than like when I'm (inaudible). Talking on the phone can get me close, but only in the family. (pause) Phone, sometimes. So... I wonder if... how it would feel, to feel connected without... like, being in the presence... of loved ones and now (ph) controlling...how inside that I feel I am. [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: We're working on it.

CLIENT: Just (inaudible).

[pause 00:43:12 to 00:43:34]

Do you think you ever want to be a... um... a training analyst?

THERAPIST: Um, I don't really know. I mean... like... it really doesn't feel like a big deal to me, but it also feels like something that... like, if I wanted to, I probably wouldn't... You know, I mean, if you wanted me to do it like, I, I would not be that far out of my way in meeting requirements, so like...

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess it's, is it that different from being a regular analyst? (pause) But, what about a supervising analyst? [00:44:24]

THERAPIST: Um, we aim mostly at the same people like, training analysts and supervising analysts and people and... The main requirement is that you... you know, are seeing a bunch of people and now it's like, that you have a practice that involves a certain amount of analysis and you know, you have to write (inaudible) stuff like that, but it's mostly, I think, about like, having (inaudible) practice... (inaudible) like any of them, but... (client affirms) So... There is a lot of controversy about the whole system (inaudible). (inaudible). [00:45:15]

CLIENT: Hmm. (pause) Because the analysis of a person in training to be an analyst should be different?

THERAPIST: No, I don't think... I don't think people think that it should be different, with (inaudible) like, that's what's causing the controversy...

CLIENT: Yeah, the (inaudible).

THERAPIST: You know, they (inaudible) both sides of the controversy is... (sighs) the sort of... oligarchic nature of the training analyst system. Basically... I just don't know a lot about it. But... it really kind of is sort of... special seal of approval to a small number of the faculty of analytic institutes and... and then, maybe kind of likely decide, who else could come onboard or not and so, I think questions of like, politics and popularity (client affirms) enter into it and... that's one problem. [00:47:00]

Another is... more for the candidate, but like, you know, the question is... are those people going to do a better job, thinking who should analyze candidates or are the candidates themselves going to do a better job? If the candidate can just go do analysis with whoever they want, more of less (client affirms), you know... Like, (inaudible), you know, some people would argue that seems much more reasonable than, you know, having a community (ph) of training analysts decide who else they're going to let into the club and allow to (inaudible).

CLIENT: And candidates have to choose from those people?

THERAPIST: Right, exactly. Sort of (inaudible), but that's the way it goes. You have to have (inaudible) in a small group. [00:48:00]

CLIENT: And that's bad. Although I don't know that I...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm not sure, either. Like... in a theoretical sense, I could see it, you know, just see the model and I don't, kind of involved enough with that kind of stuff really to know in practice (inaudible) how it works like, how much (inaudible) there is versus you know, how much they're really faculty who (inaudible) (client responds), you know.

CLIENT: (inaudible) super-duper (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah. Something like that.

CLIENT: Seems like what makes a good analyst isn't necessarily what makes a good friend, or person on a committee, or... leader, administrator, or even mentor, which is maybe the roles that you have to play if you're part of the club. (therapist affirms) So like... you're selecting for things that aren't necessarily...

THERAPIST: Right. [00:49:13]

CLIENT: ...the most important thing (therapist affirms) for the candidate, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think that definitely happens. You know like, people who have been just really good citizens in the institute, you know, and are taking a lot of administrative responsibility that people don't really want to take on or, you know, or they're liked in that way, but aren't as clinically talented, or whatever. I mean, some of them definitely sort of drift into (ph) to the club. You know, it's not that like, they're not going to hurt anybody, but the tricky...

CLIENT: (pause) I wonder if that will stop striking me as so strange. [00:50:06]

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: The field. (chuckles) The practice, the...

THERAPIST: (chuckles) It hasn't stopped striking me that way!

CLIENT: So probably not.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) It might.

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. (pause) It's a hard thing to have in life... and not be able to... Well, maybe this is a result of how I relate to people, not, like not be able to feel like other people can really, really know what I'm talking about and what I'm (inaudible). (therapist affirms) [00:51:12]

THERAPIST: (affirms) (pause) Yeah, Freud said that... there is no model for the analytic relationship anywhere else in life. I think he's probably right, (inaudible).

CLIENT: (agrees) Probably the culture in a different time in this country was more supportive of, I mean, just by virtue of the fact that maybe... Well, maybe it's not true. Are there more, is there more of a population in an office now than, say... [00:52:01]

THERAPIST: Probably not, no. Probably, the period from like... like in the 60s and 70s, with analysis was in sort of a hey day or like golden day to the U.S., but also really hasn't sort of died out or isn't on it's... us like now, in a way that people... talk about, (client affirms) you know, sort of forces pushing in both directions in like, better research and increasing sort of... brain research, that sort of supports and also since, at the same time, the population of analysts is aging. Like, the average age of members of the American Psychoanalytic Association (ph) is like, 105 or something, I don't know, (client chuckles) so... Not many people being trained (both chuckle) and that pushes in the other direction. [00:53:04]

CLIENT: Well, if... It's like many of the... sort of self-aware, created, I don't know, leaders of various different fields just move... If one could assume that... you know, a lot of people that... people that we look up to, we could assume that like, they were in a (inaudible) or had been. It would feel really different. (therapist responds) And I wonder if that's, if that was true at any point. Or if you have to like, change... change your circle. [00:54:18]

THERAPIST: You mean, if people were open about having been in analysis?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Of if it was just like, sort of a general... experience that like, you could assume that many people have had. (pause) I guess I'm specifically thinking about the science world and the art world, which are worlds that matter to me and... (therapist affirms)

THERAPIST: (pause) I think it's sort of more known about, in certain periods of like, humanity. Somebody has (ph) a greater understanding in that like, I've seen a number of people in the hard sciences actually... in other words like... I mean, around here, obviously (client affirms), but even like among people in different fields (client affirms) like, it... I guess is pretty well represented... I don't know what it means. Like, I would guess that's sort of... [00:56:04]

CLIENT: I wonder what that is... what if it's the people referring...these patients to you?

THERAPIST: No, I mean I would guess that like, other therapists and analysts in this area are probably seeing a lot of people involved in life sciences, you know, or they have seen.

CLIENT: How many gay patients do you have?

THERAPIST: Hmm, at the moment? (sighs) I don't know. I mean, generally like... probably... I don't really have like... I generally see like, between 2, 2-5 people (ph) who are gay. I don't know, yeah. (inaudible).

CLIENT: Cool.

[pause to 00:57:19 to 00:59:27]

There are a big difference between how "on" I... feel, or like feel like is appreciated or encouraged on my mom's side of the family, and with my mom, compared to like, dad's side of the family and especially Jeremy's family. (therapist responds) There is definitely this... like... "How are you? How's it going? How did you enjoy this experience? Like, what do you have to say? Like, You look tired, you look this..."

(pause) It's very fast and loud and... sort of a family of like, orators. Orators? (changes pronunciation)

THERAPIST: Orators, I think. [01:00:35]

CLIENT: Orators and... like, not a lot of, not a whole lot of like... silent contemplation or just being. (pause) I notice it more. (therapist affirms) I notice it when I go home, after spending a whole bunch of time with Jeremy and his family and maybe here... and like in lab, where I... I don't feel, I feel probably like the least like, apt to be "on" there.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Which is alike. (ph) [01:01:31]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean... Okay, there are different ways of being "on."

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: That one definitely brings out... like, wanting to produce and be recognized by my peers, and by Kelly (sp), and stuff like that. But in general, I'm just... no one really cares what I say or like, what I look like or how my face looks or... And I don't need to relate to people in that sort of like... I keep it, when we talk about like, getting inside people, I keep imagining a papaya like, scooping out the center seed (therapist affirms). [01:02:20]

So, I don't need to like, scoop out all the center seeds to like, have a, a super awesome relationship with my lab mate. I have, with some people like, with Joanne (sp) and a little bit like, with Kelly, but... I can connect with people through... science... and sort of just like, by being kind, which... is perhaps just like, the most natural (therapist affirms) thing. And that isn't like, that common. (therapist responds) And by being excited, which also feels really natural. But there is not a whole lot of me to like, really dig deeply and evaluate. I don't know. I think I bring a good deal of that to my lab, but it's different. (therapist affirms) [01:03:28]

THERAPIST: (pause) Sounds like it's nice. (client affirms)

[pause 01:03:45 to 01:04:27]

CLIENT: Yeah, (inaudible) describe what it's like at home.

[pause 01:04:30 to 01:05:18]

How's it going for you?

THERAPIST: It's going okay, except (inaudible).

[pause 01:05:22 to 01:07:30] (door opens and closes during this time)

CLIENT: Do you think... that I think so much about you and... like, what all your papaya seeds like, could feel like, has something to do with... (pause) Um... like how I, how I relate to... people who are close to me, or who I want to be close to me at the moment and that... that could change... I don't if what I'm asking came across. [01:08:38]

THERAPIST: I don't think I quite got it. I mean, I... Sometimes it makes sense, but I don't, I don't think I picked up what you're trying to ask me.

CLIENT: Well... Like, okay, if I decided to stop seeing you, I would eventually stop thinking about you so much, and it would fade away. That would be one way for like... my... very, very strong instinct and interest to learn about you to go away. But, it could also go away if like, the way that I relate to... being close to people changes.

THERAPIST: I see. [01:09:39]

CLIENT: And then I could still like, long for you and feel what I feel, but then... the nature of like, wanting to know a whole lot about you like, the nature of those thoughts might change.

THERAPIST: I do you think that's possible.

CLIENT: (pause) (sniffs) Okay. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Um... (pause) Yeah, I mean because there is... You know, there is a part of served (ph) by longing, the part of is just your anxiety, I think. (client affirms) (pause) Kind of recent, I guess in (inaudible) the part could change, but the part I had in mind was the (inaudible) potential. [01:10:47]

CLIENT: I wonder... I wonder why... Anxiety is manifesting itself in that way, among others. And I wonder why it's there.

THERAPIST: Um... (pause) Well, it seems to have something to do with... (pause) wanting to be kind of people are still there close with you. (client affirms)

[pause 01:12:03 to 01:13:06]

CLIENT: And I think it... comes from also a... like, a lot of unrest with how things are. Not like, you know, what I'm doing at any particular moment, but how I feel and how... I like, really need to feel like I can change how things are, or feeling like I need to change them.

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Well... like, not being able to latch onto like, what's happening at any given moment... through whatever it is. (therapist responds)

[pause 01:14:26 to 01:14:52]

THERAPIST: That's (inaudible) you feel?

CLIENT: (pause) (affirms) (pause) Or it's like, there are layers and layers of things... that are at play at any given moment, that like, seem to be unnecessary or like getting in the way of just like, doing what I'm doing, or feeling what I'm feeling. Like... Like right now, for example. Like, how much time is left? Like... what am I going to feel like when I leave? (pause) You know, on top of like, how does it feel now, how do you feel now? Or... you know, wondering a whole lot of things about you. [01:16:02]

(pause) But (chuckles), okay, but, and then like, when I'm... I don't know like... sort of transitioning from one thing to another at work or something? It's like similar. It's like, wondering a whole lot of things about you... Like, wondering if I'm not going to feel great in the evening.

THERAPIST: Um... So...

CLIENT: Wondering like, if I'm satisfied at the moment. All this is like... kind of an approximation. [01:17:11]

THERAPIST: Um... (pause) I'm... pretty... Clearly, these thoughts relate to being in a (inaudible), or sessions and to...

CLIENT: Oh, (affirms). [01:17:45]

THERAPIST: Um... uh... Today, this is where it gets back to the question of the tension, I think, between wanting to get inside of somebody else as a way of... You'll get two things that help you feel close and know you're there for them and with them on one side; and feeling the sad or... more upset, maybe more scared, lonelier things, which I think are incompatible, usually, with... (pause) you know, the kind of focus on the other person. (client affirms) And... (inaudible) sort of just kind of connected, because...

[pause 01:19:10 to 01:19:31]

You worry about being able to be here with me, but then... (pause) or interact, really (ph), that I won't be here with you with them.

CLIENT: Or if like, that is going to end.

THERAPIST: (pause) That... what's the matter (ph)?

CLIENT: Like, being here together with, um, it's going to end. [01:20:12]

THERAPIST: Like, I guess it will be time to stop, you mean? Or because I will turn away or...?

CLIENT: Mostly because it's time to stop, or like, that something will happen that will prevent... I don't know. I worry a lot about separating and stuff. (inaudible)

[pause 01:20:47 to 01:21:31]

THERAPIST: I think... Yeah, okay, um... We have five minutes. You know, the (inaudible) thing about like, what's worth like, death or fear of death, in (inaudible).

CLIENT: I mean...

THERAPIST: It is, think of death as like, the scary thing and the problem.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: But, really, the problem is... Sure, I'm fine (ph) with death. Um... [01:22:20]

CLIENT: I'm familiar with... that question and that teaching.

THERAPIST: Great. So... um... I think it's a little like, that it shows separation for you, and I think...

[pause 01:22:45 to 01:23:35]

I think, at some level, you have an ongoing or a (inaudible) in touch with when you're here, and are more in touch with when you're not, about... how much you're really here for me (ph) and what you need to be in the first place. And I think that's probably a lot of what makes separation hard.

[pause 01:24:00 to 01:24:34]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) There is pain... that doesn't feel like it has... that it's there because like, I'm interpreting, or I'm scared about like, what I mean to you. There is just like pain. Maybe I don't know what its root is and maybe it has something to do with this, but... There is a terrible pain... upon (ph) separation that feels primitive or raw... that has felt that way for, as long as I can remember and probably as long as my parents can remember. [01:25:56]

THERAPIST: (pause) Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: Bye. (door opens and closes)

END TRANSCRIPT