TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Yeah, it's nicer. How's it going?

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Still a little hectic, but basically okay.

CLIENT: Are you...? (Pause) I don't have anything (chuckling).

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: It felt natural to ask another question, but I don't have another question that you're going to answer. (Pause) [0:01:00]

THERAPIST: Do you want to ask me a question that I'm not going to answer?

CLIENT: Maybe. Well, I guess I want to know if you're feeling okay. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I am a little bit under the weather (inaudible at 0:01:18). I didn't know if you meant (crosstalk). Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. You look under the weather. (Pause) And then I guess I want to know what sorts of things make you feel (pause) hectic. (Pause) Different people feel hectic in different... from different things. [0:02:00]

THERAPIST: Like what I'm busy with, or (crosstalk)?

CLIENT: Yeah, is it too many things going on at once, and there's not quite enough time for them, so that that's stressful because you're running around, or people are running in and out at times that don't quite fit? Or (pause) is something wrong that's casting a hectic shadow on everything? (Pause) [0:03:00] I guess it's kind of a big deal for you to be late? But it doesn't feel to me like a big deal at all. And that's why I would not be a good (pause) therapist in a conventional way. But I could learn. (Pause)

THERAPIST: So it kind of indicates that something is kind of amiss for me, and you wonder sort of, is it more logistical or more internal?

CLIENT: Right. [0:03:57] And does being late contribute to bad feelings, or is only a consequence of the fact that things are hectic? Or is it unrelated? (Pause) I guess I'm also trying to say, you don't ever have to worry about being late with me. It doesn't offend me, it doesn't make me feel stressed.

THERAPIST: [That's good to know] (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) [0:05:00]

THERAPIST: I'm not yet sure (pause) what to say about the more particular things you're wondering about.

CLIENT: There's this incredible reflection of the tree that's blowing in the lantern? And the light is very cool right now. It makes the lantern look alive. (Pause) [0:06:00] I got pretty anxious and sad on my way here, on the bus. It just... (Pause) Everything shifted underneath me, and suddenly I was (pause) feeling (pause) despair (pause), and anxious about feeling despair, and kind of like something was ending? [0:06:59] Like, my Monday through Thursday period was ending, and I hadn't adjusted to it really well? I sort of (pause) felt like this was a big disturbance, but not an unwelcome one, just sort of as if my boat felt like I was suddenly rocking. (Pause) And there were... the thoughts were mostly anxious thoughts about how I didn't like the feeling, how it was uncomfortable and how scary it was. [0:08:07] But other thoughts... there weren't that many other thoughts. But it was... they were mostly around feeling like there's too much space, and I'm alone, and the weekend is too unstructured and it's too lonely, and there's no (pause)anchor. [I was scared by it] (ph). (Pause) [0:09:00] [0:10:00]

THERAPIST: I guess one thing (pause) it strikes me that you said is, you were kind of wondering what's making things feel hectic for me. But also you're not really sure what's making things feel bad for you.

CLIENT: No, I don't know. I'm not sure at all. (Pause) Right now I'm pretty much fully focused on being worried about you. [0:11:00] (Pause) Not in a panicked sense, but sort of in a preoccupied way.

THERAPIST: Like figuring out what's the matter for me, or am I not feeling well, or (crosstalk)?

CLIENT: Yeah, and how is this going to be for you? And how is it for you? And is it uncomfortable in ways that it's not usually uncomfortable? (Pause)

THERAPIST: Like what?

CLIENT: I don't know. Is it hard to focus? Is it strained, or is it stressful? (Pause) [0:12:00] Would you rather be somewhere else? (Pause) [0:13:00]

THERAPIST: I have the impression you sort of think about it as though it could be a bit of a crisis for me. (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe.

THERAPIST: There's an intensity to your worrying about me.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think there's also some resistance. I don't want it to be this way. I mean, part of me accepts it and appreciates the... whatever it's arising (ph)? [0:14:01] And I appreciate what it's bringing out? But another part of me wants it to go away, for me and for you. (Pause) [0:15:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you're worried that I'm not here with you in a way that I usually am. And that's got you quite anxious. I don't think it's... clearly it's not what was upsetting you on the bus, because you didn't know yet. [0:15:58] But...

CLIENT: Maybe I did.

THERAPIST: Maybe. (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, it is making me anxious. But that word falls terribly short (pause), not that it's not intense enough. But it... I don't know, I'm noticing this a lot in the last several weeks. [0:16:58] It's very hard to find words for how I'm feeling. And it was brought to my attention because I'm taking this practice group class. And it's on Tuesdays from 7:15 to 9:00. (Pause) And it's really wonderful.

THERAPIST: Oh, good.

CLIENT: It's been so (pause) educational for me in that (pause) you have a class or practice group called Working with Difficult Thoughts and Emotions. [0:18:06] And you inevitably recruit the full spectrum of human suffering from that perspective. There's maybe 80 people.

THERAPIST: Oh, wow.

CLIENT: And everybody sits for 45 minutes. And then Casey (sp?) is one of the... whatever the hierarchy is, she's one of the guiding teachers of the three primary (ph) teachers. So she sort of speaks and offers practical advice in practice and in life and just speaks about what the Buddha had to say and tells stories. [0:19:05] And then mostly the rest of the time people in the room speak. And there's a little homework at the end of every week. And the first week was, when you feel a difficult emotion or thought coming, pause and say, ah! Anxiety feels like this. Or sorrow is like this. Or grief is like this. So that's a very useful thing to do? [0:19:57] And it was very useful.

But I found myself at those moments and then also just for long periods of time in my normal sittings not being able to... (Pause) Or maybe what I noticed is more that I really wanted to label the general sort of darkness and feelings that I have. But I couldn't, and then it was very hard to be aware of the feelings without sort of piling on. It was like, if I could sort of meet it with a word, then my awareness was much more sort of (pause), I don't know, gentle and even. [0:21:01] And if I felt like I was searching then it just felt like... it was very upsetting. (Pause) I'd like to have a nonverbal awareness and perception. I don't think I need to find words. But (pause) they can be helpful. [0:22:00] (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well... (Pause) Maybe you have to feel sort of sure of the label or sure that I'm here with you... [0:23:02]

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Uh-huh. Either one.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) In order to be able to (pause) feel the more difficult feelings without getting quite shaken up.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know that I feel the difficult feelings when I feel like you're here with me that much more easily. I think it's hard always. (Pause) [0:24:00]

THERAPIST: Maybe there are some ways you wonder or worry about how I'm here with you, even when it's clear that I am. (Pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. (Pause) I think I... I think maybe I worry about how anyone [is with me] (ph). [0:25:01] (Pause) I was trying to see if there were any exceptions to that. I think Zach (sp?), my friend from college, might be an exception. (Pause) I mean, again, I don't think worry is the right word. [0:25:59] I think yearning for more or for something else is the right word [for this] (ph). (Pause) I don't know. (Pause) [0:27:00] I'm thinking about hot dogs and corn. (Pause) I love [being able to eat] (ph) hot dogs and corn for dinner. (Pause) [0:27:56]

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) I just had a joke in my head, huh, I wonder if she feels like I'm grilling her. That's the joke that I (inaudible at 0:28:00). [0:28:03]

CLIENT: (Chuckling) (Pause) You are up in my grill (inaudible at 0:28:15). (Pause) I think it's a self-soothing instinct to think about dinner.

THERAPIST: Dinner? Yeah. I mean, from what you said about dinner growing up, I guess that's what makes me think of anyway.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) [0:29:00] But I can't just eat hot dogs. (Pause) They're too fatty. (Pause) I would like to have less fat on me. (Pause) It's sort of a hard thing for me to (pause) deal with. [0:29:56] (Pause)

THERAPIST: How so? (Pause)

CLIENT: Well, it's just this source of feelings that makes me feel badly about myself. And I've been pretty.. I've had a pretty fine relationship with them throughout my life. And at many times I've been... they haven't been there at all, and I've been very happy with (pause) my body. But when they are there I'm not really sure what to do with them because they're not... (Pause) I don't know, they're just kind of icky and unpleasant. [0:31:03] And they sometimes drive me to action. And then it feels good. But (pause) I don't know. I'm just not clear what to do with them. (Pause) [0:32:00] I think I have a complex around your migraines.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) I think I'm afraid a lot that you're going to have one again. And I think I'm afraid that I cause them and secretly want that to be true?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. You want to give me a headache?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh, yeah. Go ahead.

CLIENT: So (pause) that's all. (Pause) [0:32:55] And it was one of the clearest breaks in role for us. So I think it is a moment that I feel is important. So I remember.

THERAPIST: Do you mean the supposed last visit, or...?

CLIENT: Uh-huh. But also the time where you actually... you were actually getting a migraine.

THERAPIST: You mean a break in role... what was the break in role in particular? For me to mention it?

CLIENT: For you to say, I can't meet. Let's reschedule. (Pause) Well, actually it was more complicated than that. You wanted to continue, and then you couldn't. (Pause) [0:34:00] And then I wanted to meet... and then I wanted to meet twice the next day. I don't know, do you remember that, when I cried a lot when you said no, and then I didn't want to meet at all? And then you were like, you should come in. And I was like, fuck you. (Pause) I didn't tell you that part (chuckling).

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Until now.

CLIENT: Yeah, until now. (Pause) So it could have caused this as well.

THERAPIST: Yeah. There's an echo of that today (pause), probably including the fuck you...

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:34:57] (Pause)

THERAPIST: Which I don't imagine sits very comfortably with you. (Pause)

CLIENT: What does? (Chuckling) What do you imagine does sit comfortably with me?

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: Sure, I don't say it a lot, and I don't feel it a lot towards you. But... although it's very different from some of the other extreme feelings I have about you. [0:36:00]

THERAPIST: Well, you also (inaudible at 0:36:05) today that you weren't that happy on the way out of here on Monday either.

CLIENT: Yeah. In a way that I'm not normally unhappy?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I wasn't quite sure what to make of it. I mean, I... (Pause) Something about having said a lot and for so little.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I wasn't sure if you were frustrated with me because I didn't have more to say or with the situation because... my impression was that it was something about how we weren't interacting in the way we usually do, because you were telling me about stuff. [0:37:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, I was narrating, which is so bleh (sp?).

THERAPIST: I didn't know whether you frustrated with yourself or with me or with just the kind of situation, how it unfolded, but...

CLIENT: I think it was a necessary evil. I was really happy with how important the history seemed to you. And that was lovely. And I have more to say, because I got some facts straight with my mom. And I think it's a really important line, story line. [0:37:57] So I wasn't unhappy with the session because I thought that it should have gone differently. I think it just felt like a necessary evil. And it's overwhelming to pick and choose what to say or tell you about. And I was annoyed that I had picked Friday, not Tuesday, because the rhythm of the week is much more tumultuous as a result. [Plus the part] there's a big drop. [0:38:59] And then as a result there's this big shift, and I find my rhythm again. And then today feels like much more of a disruption than it would if I'd seen you on Tuesday. And I'm self-conscious describing all of this because it's [so of time] that has passed. But it doesn't feel like that. (Pause) [0:40:00] Hot dogs. (Chuckling) It's so funny when the dinner thoughts come.

THERAPIST: [Hot dogs] (ph)?

CLIENT: Hmm? [0:40:56]

THERAPIST: Oh, you mean it's so funny when it is the thoughts show up?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, maybe I'm just hungry.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: But also I think they show up at particular times. (Pause) Last week I had to make this decision to not make brownies before our Thursday meeting, to make them on Thursday so that the paintings wouldn't... so that wouldn't be like the other time when I was just like, all these things to show. (Pause) It felt like I had grown since that time? But also it felt like I hadn't changed at all, and I just (pause) learned my lesson (pause), but didn't actually value the space that I was giving the paintings. [0:42:12] But I think that's not true. I think I kind of wanted brownies to be around. But I chose for them not to be because (pause) I didn't want them to overshadow the paintings. I was making... I had to make brownies. I had to, because I was bringing them to Kentucky for my brother's birthday (pause), and for everybody else. [0:43:00] (Pause) [0:44:00]

THERAPIST: I (pause) think you're turning (ph) to related things, one of which is sort of a question about (pause) the ways that I'm here with you and what I'll be able to sort of hear and understand what you have to say. [0:44:59] And the other is, it seems like one of those times, and maybe it's always one of those times, that you have about five million things you want to say.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you're really not sure where to start or what the right words are. And... (Pause)

CLIENT: It's not always like that.

THERAPIST: I think that's a bad feeling, when it feels that way.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: And I think it has... your (ph) difficulty having more access to what you want to say, I think has something to do with some kind of uncertainty about whether I can be here with you with it (ph). [0:46:14]

CLIENT: With it?

THERAPIST: With whatever it is, yeah.

CLIENT: Oh. Well, maybe it's that... maybe it actually feels more like you can't be here with me with it, which is the process of being uncomfortable because I feel like there's too many things to say. Does that make sense? If I were to choose something and launch into it, I think you would be completely there with me. [0:47:00] But it's the journey to that that doesn't feel very supported. (Pause)

THERAPIST: So (ph) you'd know I was going to be where you were going to end up if I was there all the way (chuckling)? (Pause)

CLIENT: (Chuckling) What? No.

THERAPIST: Like asking questions and making suggestions or...?

CLIENT: Maybe. Yeah, maybe just talking more about... maybe just doing what you're doing now. [0:48:00] (inaudible at 0:48:04) that it feels like I have five million things to say, and that it's a bad feeling. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess (pause) wanting to bring the paintings and the brownies and probably the history, too, and the (inaudible at 0:48:53) between you and me, and how you've been feeling through the week, and (inaudible at 0:48:57), and all of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:48:59] A lot of stuff. But sometimes I show up, and none of it feels as important or as moving or... (Pause) None of it is making as big of an impression on me as just being here and experiencing what (pause) is between us. So that's confusing. That's what happened last Monday. (Pause) [0:50:00] Sometimes it's hard for me to say the things to Jeremy that I want to say in the same way? I'm afraid he's not... he's going to be busy, or he's not going to feel like talking, or I'm going to be disappointed by his disinterest, or he's not going to be interested enough, or we won't have time. (Pause) I would say that happens, I don't know, maybe one week day a week. [0:51:00] It happened yesterday, and I could sense that it was coming when I got on my bike to ride home. So I texted him and asked for time to sit outside and have a snack together and chat? (Pause) (inaudible at 0:51:28) body language.

THERAPIST: What body language is that?

CLIENT: That you seem tired and out of it.

THERAPIST: Oh. (Pause) [0:51:56] I do feel a little bit tired. I don't really feel out of it. It's possible that you're seeing it and I'm not. (Pause)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 0:52:10) (Pause) Being worried makes it hard to be here. (Pause) Sorry to put you on the spot.

THERAPIST: It's okay. (Pause) [0:53:00]

CLIENT: So my text wasn't clear enough. When I got home, Jeremy was like, it's too hot outside. And I already ate a snack. But we can talk inside. Then I spent five minutes trying to convince him to come outside. But he wouldn't. And I (inaudible at 0:53:26) I don't know, it was this whole big production of, it's too dark in here. I'm going to go turn on all the lights and open every window. Then he (ph) had to do that, turn on the fan. And then I had five minutes until I wanted to go to the evening sitting by the time it was time to talk. And then I just started crying and asking for help. [0:54:00] Jeremy was trying to feed me these watermelon pieces left over from something the day before. And it was totally infuriating. So it...

THERAPIST: Hmm? It was infuriating?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it wasn't what you wanted?

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't want to be fed watermelon pieces when I'm crying, I'm trying to talk, and he doesn't sit outside and eat a snack. Sorry I took forever, but somehow I couldn't just come home and start talking about the (inaudible at 0:54:35) and Kelly and this other student and... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, you put so much into it. You're so excited to talk to him, I think, or to me, and so invested in the conversation and the relationship. [0:55:04] And, if the other person isn't really there or is phoning it in, what the fuck is that (chuckling)?

CLIENT: It's who they are.

THERAPIST: Well, that may be true. But I don't think that's what it feels like to you at the time. In other words...

CLIENT: Well, I mean, it is the way it feels...

THERAPIST: Very upsetting.

CLIENT: In that it makes me feel really needy on top of actually being needy and having that be met with less resistance. (Pause) It's like I have... I need something, and there isn't any resistance. And it's hard, and it... but it gets better when I start talking. [0:56:01] Then it's like, I'm needy, and there's resistance. And it makes me feel more...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:56:09) (Pause)

CLIENT: My dad used to be really upset by my crying. I would cry a lot out of frustration over math and physics and computer science which I started to learn in college (inaudible at 0:56:39). I can remember from maybe seventh grade through when I started college many nights of (pause) either him asking... mostly it was me... my asking for help, and he'd be really eager. [0:57:16] Not... it didn't feel overpowering, but it felt... I don't know, he was just this great resource. He would... it was most important thing to him in the whole world, was helping me with my math homework. Then we would get to the table, and he I think also gets very frustrated very quickly. And it would be like, why don't you have an eraser on your pencil? We can't do this without an eraser. Go find an eraser.

And I'm always worried about how much time there is. I need to finish this problem now. I can't stay up any later, because I'm going to be tired, because I have whatever, softball, band, [all those things] (ph). [0:58:06] But anyway we would get to actually working. And he would be explaining something, and it would just be like, wall, wall. And I wasn't able to communicate that there was a wall in any way, other than say, just losing it and crying, crying.

I think I don't do that as much anymore? I think actually going through all of that and going through it in college by myself made it easier to deal with very hard concepts? But it happened very late. [0:58:57] So then he would be totally overcome by... be very hurt to see me cry (pause), so moved, and wouldn't be able to treat the situation the way that he would choose to treat it, maybe more objectively, or be more harsh, or focus more on what we were actually doing. So then he'd be like, I can't work when you're crying, (inaudible at 0:59:30). Then I would take a little more time. So similar things happen with Jeremy sometimes, like yesterday.

THERAPIST: You mean, he's in your father's shoes?

CLIENT: Yeah. There's all this set up that needs to happen. I have five minutes, and then I can't do anything but cry. [0:59:59] (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, when you described the wall, my response was not of any conceptual complexity but of (pause) something else. Maybe my... maybe the shortest distance between you and learning the math was (chuckling)... there's something else, like (pausing) knowing he's there... (Pause)

CLIENT: Are you saying if I cried then he would give me the answer? [1:00:55]

THERAPIST: No, that's not what I'm saying. I think you cried because you were upset and overwhelmed. But I think maybe what would have been most immediately helpful was not, alright, let's go over the cosine again...

CLIENT: I see.

THERAPIST: But, it's alright. I know you're stressed out. It's okay. We'll... I know part of your stress is that we don't have enough time, and you've got five million things to do tomorrow, and you don't want to be tired, and you need to get to bed. I know you're worried because this happened three nights ago, and you got upset, and that wasn't fun for you. And I know you worry that if you get upset I'm not going to be able to handle it well, or I'm not going to be able to continue teaching, and you're not going to be able to concentrate. But it's okay. If you get upset, we'll get through it. (inaudible at 1:01:47) the time we have, make some space.

CLIENT: I'm laughing because none of that was ever part of the conversation, as you know. [1:01:59] Sure. Space would have been a much better (pause) way of feeling like I was getting a hug.

THERAPIST: Yeah. One of those might have helped, too.

CLIENT: Yeah, there were always hugs.

THERAPIST: Well, that's good.

CLIENT: It was a big production. Yeah, there were always hugs, too. (Pause) So my brother did this, too, with my dad, but he had no patience for... (Pause) That's not true. He just didn't want to engage in that high intensity emotional production.

THERAPIST: Your brother?

CLIENT: Yeah. [1:02:58] I don't know what he did. He didn't do as well at math, I guess (laughing).

THERAPIST: (Chuckling)

CLIENT: I think he had a really different way of working with my dad. And my dad would say a lot that... he could tease me forever, and it would be fine. And I would cry, and then I would stop, and then I would laugh. And it wasn't that way with my brother, so he must have figured out some more sensitive or careful method (inaudible at 1:03:38). (Pause) I wonder what you help your kids with. (Pause) [1:04:00] I wonder if it's annoying to them that you care about their feelings. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I'm their parent. Of course whatever I do is annoying.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) But there are lots of shades (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, there are.

CLIENT: So my mom was two when her dad (inaudible at 1:04:42)...

THERAPIST: Right, that makes more...

CLIENT: And he was enrolled in a PhD program (inaudible at 1:04:49), and he got...

THERAPIST: In entomology as well?

CLIENT: I don't know. [1:04:57] See? (inaudible at 0:05:00) openly shared. So he thought that that was bogus, and that wasn't going to get him anywhere, wasn't going to get him a good job. So he applied abroad. And it was a terrible time. And no one wanted him to go, and people were mad at him for going. And it was very... there was a lot of upheaval. They didn't have money to spend in there either, so my... Nana (sp?) pawned off all of her wedding gold to buy a plane ticket. (Pause) So then a year later he... because his first adviser refused to advise him. And his second adviser was like, okay. He wasn't doing well, and I think he had failed his quals or had... was going to. [1:06:01] So then when my mom was three Nana went to (inaudible at 1:06:06). And my mom stayed with Nana's mom, Barbara (sp?).

THERAPIST: Barbara?

CLIENT: Barbara. So Barbara was... so it was like, she's the concentrated source of a very profound religious calling, having a very profound religious calling, which Nana has, and my mom has, other of my mom's siblings have also. But my mom's seems most like Nana's. And Nana's, she's... of six children, hers, many people say, is the only one who is like her mom's. So Barbara had all these devotees. [1:06:57] And my mom says that her earliest memories of these two years in her house, which was a multifamily house, lots and lots of people, lots of rooms, lots of levels... her earliest memories were of two things. One, her sitting and meditating quietly, peacefully...

THERAPIST: Barbara?

CLIENT: Barbara. In this... among... in this room full of all these screaming children, in-laws, a house to run. And she just had this... she would just meditate in the middle of it. And then the other memory, which is much more obvious when looking at Nana and my mom, is that she would just be on her feet from being awake until going to sleep, except apparently for this meditation time, and be cooking and serving and directing and feeding and running things with tons of hospitality and devotion. [1:08:15] So my mom was... Nana was pregnant with my mom when Nana (sp?) got his acceptance and didn't know that she was pregnant. So my mom was kind of a (pause) surprise. And then I guess it didn't work. So then...

THERAPIST: Right, because she has a younger brother.

CLIENT: Yeah, so her brother was born... her mom, Nana, was nine months pregnant when she arrived back from Carleton with Nana. My mom was five then. [1:09:00] And then she had a younger brother. So you're right, there was a lot of turmoil. (Pause) And she didn't recognize Nana G at the train station. She says everybody went to greet them, which I imagine was very overwhelming. [1:10:01] When she says everybody, I could imagine 30 or 40 people. And she didn't recognize him, but she recognized her mom. And he ran to hug her, and she cried. And then she said that, since then... she noticed since that day that Nana really hasn't let her out of his sight and had felt so bad. And it's come up again and again in their life together. He felt really bad (inaudible at 1:10:37).

THERAPIST: [She stayed home] (ph)? (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah. It's not entirely clear how much of that was financial and how much of it was (inaudible at 1:10:52).

THERAPIST: So it's (inaudible at 1:10:55) the story. [1:10:59]

CLIENT: So the next time she left home was when she was 27 and married my dad. But his dad arrived from Italy and started living with them from that day onwards. So he's been (inaudible at 1:11:20). (Pause)

THERAPIST: It's interesting, that back (ph) story, for your reaction to your wedding. (Pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, (inaudible at 1:11:50). (Pause) [1:12:00] She said that they moved to the U.S. because it was going to be really hard to instill the family values they wanted to with children having to go to different countries for education. [1:12:54] And that was the only choice that seemed fair in Africa. So when she was five all five children and the parents moved for two years, where he got a job. And then a friend encouraged him to apply to the government in Africa. And by that point the two older boys went to London, and then the oldest daughter went to Italy, back to live with Barbara.

So it was after two years of that the same friend actually had moved to Kentucky and encouraged them to move. And Nana made a visit, and some professor, some Italian professor promised him a job. [1:13:56] So she said it took them about a year to decide, but then they decided to bring everybody here. And then I think it's clear why the instinct to instill family values and protect them and allow them to flourish was the strongest one. (Pause) It must have been like a jungle to them, the culture of the U.S. at that time. (Pause) 1971? (Pause) [1:15:00] They are very cute.

THERAPIST: Thank you. (Pause) [1:16:00]

CLIENT: I think the way that I've made room for Buddhas (ph) in the meditation feels (pause) like it has some intensity that echoes my mom's and her mom's and her mom's. (Pause) But I don't know. [1:17:00]

THERAPIST: I'm surprised you feel like you don't know.

CLIENT: Well, it's like I've been tangled with you and the timing of it, it marks a very difficult time in my life. So it's not the same... I was four years old, and I was drawn to the church, or my mom learned how to read (sp?). She describes being so into it, that that's why she learned how to read. [1:17:59] This feels like the same thing, but I'm a lot older. And (pause) it's very (pause) important in a way that feels completely passionate and... at my core. So in that way I do know that it's [in my] (ph)... but it also just feels like it makes complete sense. And that doesn't feel as similar.

THERAPIST: I see. [1:18:58]

CLIENT: But I don't know what it was like for them. Maybe it made complete sense, too. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I wonder if you're also... I don't know, if it's like you're a little tentative or a little something about putting yourself in your lineage that way. [1:20:08]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I have some negative associations that (pause) don't feel so great? But (pause) I don't know. I'm pretty proud of it, too.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I didn't have a [very good... but it seems that was more of] (ph) being tentative about kind of stepping up or... (Pause) [1:21:00] Putting yourself as part of such an illustrious group.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) When I feel really bad, the thing that feels like it makes sense is to disappear? And this stepping-up-ness is not compatible with that (chuckling). And it's also not compatible with really knowing my feelings and being honest about them. [1:21:57] But maybe it is. Maybe that is being honest. But anyway, yeah, sort of emerging as, oh, this could be a purpose, that sort of comes up when it's hard to remember why I'm still here. (Pause) [1:22:58] You haven't done a lot of sitting around other people.

THERAPIST: Me?

CLIENT: Yeah. Have you?

THERAPIST: Sure. (Pause)

CLIENT: I wonder how (inaudible at 1:23:11). (Pause) I sort of wonder what it would have been like to come to this without so much people in it, like, without you and without the Center. I'm not sure it would have happened. (Pause) It reminds of the way I came to jazz:, in that it was also a similar... (Pause) [1:23:57] This really cool exciting group dynamic thing in school, and then also all of my love interests have been jazz musicians. And some of my most moving and amazing memories have been sitting in people's cars and listening to albums (pause), or in other ways, on records and playing with them. But it's... I married Jeremy, and that was a step in a direction that's going to make it more interesting to continue to understand my own relationship with the music that doesn't have to do with love, or that has everything to do with love but loving another... loving a man. [1:25:01]

THERAPIST: Wait, you mean it would be less complicated if you married somebody for whom jazz and music were not so central and so important?

CLIENT: Yeah. So similarly my relationship to meditation and Buddhism (pause) involves you pretty strongly? Clearly not in the same way as my relationship with jazz and the men. But... (Pause) [1:25:55] Yeah, I wonder someday what it might look like when that fades (pause), or if it will fade. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah (ph), I guess you're partly wondering what it's been like for me.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) Okay.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) (Pause) But sure, if you would like to tell me, I would love to know. [1:26:57]

THERAPIST: No, I wasn't going to say much. It just... (Pause) I guess I thought that because first you identified me as sort of having a pretty different (pause) experience, a more solitary one...

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: And then beginning to wonder what that would be like for you, that not being your experience either with music or meditation. But that... I mean, that was what made me wonder.

CLIENT: Yeah, I thought you were saying that I was wondering what it's been like for you to have me start meditating. [1:28:03]

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, yeah, that wasn't what I meant.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 1:28:05) coinciding with... yeah, I do wonder what your life with it has been like (pause), a lot. (Pause) Do you think fantasy is a difficult emotion for me or is rooted by a difficult emotion? So this ah (ph)... the typical emotion feels like this or like a difficult (ph) emotion is happening, the homework from the practice group? [1:29:03]

THERAPIST: Right. I'm a little confused. (Pause) What is difficult? I remember the homework.

CLIENT: So there are all these emotions, and some of them are really difficult. And the homework is about making a little bit of space for the emotion by pausing, also not like, I am (pause) upset, I'm going to be upset forever, but this is what being upset feels like.

THERAPIST: Right, yes, this is what upset feels like.

CLIENT: So a lot of times when I start to fantasize about you or this it feels like a difficult emotion or driven by a difficult emotion. [1:30:03]

THERAPIST: Right, I mean, I... yeah, that sounds... yes. Yeah, [that's right] (ph). I wouldn't... what threw me a little bit was your reference to kind of fantasy in general, which I don't associate with any emotion in particular. But, if you're talking about fantasies about... between you and me, then I can imagine the various feelings that might make that uncomfortable and therefore make it difficult, too.

CLIENT: Or various feelings underlie the fact that I'm having the thought in the first place. I guess it's more like a thought. (Pause) [1:30:59]

THERAPIST: We should stop now.

CLIENT: Okay. I hope you feel better.

THERAPIST: Thanks, [I do, too] (ph). (inaudible at 1:31:12) tonight and hopefully will be better tomorrow.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 1:31:17)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 1:31:20)

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