TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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CLIENT: Right before I come in, it's really good meeting time. There's no other time in the day that feels as good to [inaudible] so good. (pause) Hey, the sunflower's alive. [00:01:19.07] That's exciting. [inaudible] another day. [inaudible] not very long [inaudible]

THERAPIST: [inaudible]

CLIENT: Let's talk about why I don't like talking here. I think you were right last time. It's very annoying that you think I introduce something or try to say something but not in an effective way, in a way that made no sense to you. [00:02:22.05] A half a dozen times then you'll have brought it up at the end. Don't do that. It's better if you bring it up earlier, even if you're not sure. But I guess you can do whatever you want.

THERAPIST: [inaudible] depends who you talk to. Yeah, I didn't bring it up sooner because I wanted to try to locate it a little.

CLIENT: So yeah, that's not an uncommon thing that happens for me, [inaudible] especially has identifying many times very early on. [00:03:33.13] And the dynamic with him is messy because I want him to use contact and forget the fact that he wants me to be more precise and show love by just suggesting, doing this, doing this. And I don't know why I want that. I think it has a lot to do with why I'm not clear here a lot. But he will never suggest things, and he will just say that doesn't make any sense or he'll repeat what I said as if it's the most confusing thing he's ever heard in his life. [00:04:33.21] And it happens sometimes [inaudible] so I think there's I have a lot of confusion sometimes. And I think I have a high tolerance for it. Where I'm not afraid to say something even though I don't really know what I'm trying to say. But here I think I'm perpetually always confused. And there's a lot of anguish. Always, not just here. All day, every day. [00:05:26.21] So I like talking to you and I like being here. I think there's sometimes a cycle that happens here where the less you talk or respond, the less I want to pay attention to myself and [inaudible] have [inaudible] the less I feel still if I don't. I don't feel still enough to really think that clearly or even make an attempt to explain to you so that you really get it. [00:06:32.00] And instead I don't know. It feels like my focus shifts to how upsetting it is when you don't talk.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you are very attune to when it feels like someone isn't there, and they can be there in a way but it still doesn't feel like they're there. [00:07:18.22]

CLIENT: I'm very attune to doing that's what's actually happening, where in my head I'm attune to when in my head it feels like that.

THERAPIST: Well I think you're attune in your head to when it feels like that. I guess I wasn't thinking [inaudible] claim about how often that's true. Although I did say that I think without some evidence or indication it can feel like the other person is not.

CLIENT: Yeah, totally. So that might be an unreasonable preference or requirement for being able to process out loud and open up, but I think it's a very strong one.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so too. [00:08:19.05]

CLIENT: I'm not a particularly internal processor kind of person. I think. I don't know, this might be changing. So in a sense I need you to give me a little more so that I can figure out what I'm trying to say. If you think that's important. Maybe it's important instead to pay attention to why I can't say what I want to say.

THERAPIST: I think so. Not because I don't want to be helpful, but because while in the moment it might help, there's a sort of way that I think it obscures what [inaudible] part of [inaudible] facilitated in the first place. [00:09:21.10]

CLIENT: Okay. [inaudible] upsetting (pause) It's upsetting because I feel like door is open, door is closed. [00:10:19.06]

THERAPIST: Well I think there's a way that even if you know in your head what I need and at a level it feels like I'm telling you I actually don't want to hear because I could do what would facilitate my hearing more, I'm making it easier for you, and I'm saying I don't want to do that. And so I'm (pause) there's supposed to be something about (pause) it making it feel to you as though I must really not be there or really not want to hear something or maybe don't understand. [00:11:59.14]

CLIENT: I think it's just that [inaudible] tell you [inaudible] can't tell you. So the promise of relief, like you're taking away the promise of relief, which feels so critical.

THERAPIST: Critical [inaudible] important. I'm not sure if you...

CLIENT: Important, yeah. (pause) Does that make sense? [00:13:09.20] (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I think that at least partly because you feel like it's wrong to say some of the things you want to say.

CLIENT: Some of the things I have in mind, so sure, maybe there are things that I don't know yet that I want to [inaudible] I don't want to talk about it [inaudible]. I just want to talk more. [00:15:11.20] And it's a lot more fun to or [inaudible] easier to shift the focus on our dynamic [inaudible] we're behaving in a way that doesn't feel chatty [ph] aka facilitated or supported. So it feels like we're going in the wrong direction. [00:16:23.09] (pause) Also, you're totally transparent in some ways. And your body language and your facial expressions are so clear. [00:17:23.28] So it's not like you're really this blank slate that you're trying to be. It's just I end up reading other cues instead of [inaudible] what you're trying to say verbally. And again, that doesn't feel like the most helpful way to spend my time here. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, it seems to me that we're kind of in what you're talking about, or what we're talking about, in that you're telling me how I'm really doing this wrong and need to get with the program, come around. [00:19:23.16] Because if you were to try to talk to me about some of the things you want to say under these conditions, I guess I really wouldn't understand.

CLIENT: Yeah, because I wouldn't say much. It would be like last time. You'd have no idea what I'm talking about. Not because your estate [ph] prevents you from understanding. Your estate [ph] prevents me from saying it. And it's a suggestion. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I don't know. Sounds a little [inaudible]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's a little [inaudible] I guess there's a part of me that's [inaudible]

THERAPIST: And curiously, you're not having any trouble explaining this to me. [00:20:40.12]

CLIENT: Because I've thought about it for a long time. And I wrote it out. I started writing to you every night. You were in my life every night [inaudible] for four nights. Sure, maybe this is all I need to talk about anything else. Maybe I just need to go through that explaining this to you and you don't have to change your behavior at all.

THERAPIST: Or maybe [inaudible] that makes you anxious to talk about it. It doesn't really sound good if it doesn't feel like I'm right there.

CLIENT: [inaudible] presumptuous. (pause) [inaudible] that it doesn't feel like we've [inaudible] a full, rich descriptive [inaudible] which is, I guess, the mode that I like to be in the most. [00:23:24.15] So part of it is I'm just pissed at you. (pause) But I'm not waiting for you to change your behavior at all. I'm noticing that it feels very bad, and I want to change my behavior in the way that I'm talking here. And it would help if you were slightly different. But the origin of this didn't come from how can I get you to change. It came from [inaudible] or something. (pause) [inaudible] (pause)

THERAPIST: [inaudible]

CLIENT: How this is dumb. [00:27:41.08] (pause) And how I'm [ph] childish; it feels childish. (pause)

THERAPIST: I guess something that's [inaudible] there is the way it sort of loops [ph] around. [00:30:48.25] First it's dumb, which kind of means I'm setting it up in a dumb way, [inaudible] as I hear it. And then you feel like you want to leave, which and then you said that feels childish, which I guess I imagine...

CLIENT: The dumb part feels childish too.

THERAPIST: But it seems to me you're feeling like both more grown up and insightful than me, and kind of childish at the same time. You're kind of moving quickly between those things. [00:31:36.04]

CLIENT: Yeah, well I'm stomping my feet. And deciding that that's enough of this for today. Maybe because it's too painful to deal with it. Or too hard.

THERAPIST: Two [ph] minutes [inaudible]

CLIENT: [inaudible] (pause)

THERAPIST: And [inaudible] the leaving itself as well, where it turns around [ph] you're the one who's going to call the shots [inaudible]

CLIENT: Yeah, that does really good actually. It feels important. I don't think it's actually like a good way to be here, but I'm trying it. [00:33:53.24] I tried it last time too. (pause) Yeah, like instead of being sort of listening [ph] and instead of my allowing myself to be worked on, I'm contracting. And part of that is because it makes leaving a lot better, to be sort of very solid and tight. And then part of it is that this is done today. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, it seems like there's both a kind of battle of wills aspect and a [inaudible] leaving [ph] you alone aspect, which is so painful and so disorienting, and it makes you, I think, feel so small.

CLIENT: Yes, I'm reacting really strongly to that. [00:36:38.13]

THERAPIST: [inaudible] about five minutes. (pause)

CLIENT: I think I'm also making up a lot more space for how it feels, and that's okay.

THERAPIST: [inaudible]

CLIENT: Meditating before coming here [inaudible] session both contributed to that.

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