TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: All right, I'm done fussing around.

CLIENT: Okay. The sunflower is alive. Mine are alive too.

THERAPIST: I know something I was going to bring up with you. We should make a regular schedule.

CLIENT: No. No. I don't want to do that yet. What do you have to say about it?

THERAPIST: Well, I think it's in general a good idea, but I'm willing to go along with not doing it for a while, and we sort of have a semi-regular schedule. [00:01:10]

CLIENT: We have Monday, we have Thursday, we have other day. I tried to have two other days this week. What do you have open?

THERAPIST: Let's see. Tuesdays at ten, there's a good chance I will have Wednesday, the four-thirty, which I will know probably on Monday.

CLIENT: Oh, are you ever going to have Thursdays at four-thirty to six?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I may be able to start doing that actually. I'll know that on Monday as well. [00:02:15]

CLIENT: Big day on that day.

THERAPIST: It's a big day. Would that be better?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It would help make the third day possible.

THERAPIST: All right. There's also, there's a period of some weeks, probably eight or ten weeks in the fall, where I would need to shift earlier on Thursday or find another day. I have a class at the institute that I'm taking, that I kind of have to take, and that's on Thursdays, like early evening, so in order to get there, I've got to be done at probably something like four-thirty.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So I could meet from three to four-thirty for those weeks. I can look to see if I could meet like... [00:03:26]

CLIENT: Should I meet four sessions in a row once a week?

THERAPIST: I don't think that's a good idea.

CLIENT: Or five? Do you want to give me a whole day? That's where I'm at with the scheduling.

THERAPIST: We'll just meet Tuesdays, all day.

CLIENT: Yeah, that will be great.

THERAPIST: All right then.

CLIENT: So, if that's not an option for you, I'm not sure I have much to contribute. I could commit to like maybe I could commit to Tuesdays at ten if Thursday became later, but things might change for me in the fall too. (pause) I really want to teach again. I don't think this is the right time. [00:04:44]

THERAPIST: All right, well my schedule is in a bit of flux, so I will keep in mind what you want and try to reach it.

CLIENT: Yeah, it doesn't seem like the best time to make a regular schedule, unless you want to make a regular schedule for like five weeks or something, for next time, but it seems like you will know things on Monday.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm sure. (pause)

CLIENT: I don't like talking about scheduling because it's... I don't know, it's a reminder of how short it is and how many endings there are. Also, I don't like really have a schedule in my week, so this is sort of the most scheduled thing I do, so I don't know how to choose times. So I guess it doesn't matter to me that much. I would like to limit the number of times that I arrive until late or leave early, so one early and one late, where a late means starting later than eight-thirty would be okay, so Tuesday ten o'clock. [00:06:57]

I think in order for free/not free association to work for me, I need more practice of like making space between when I've thought about (inaudible) and when I latch onto it, like which is what I've been doing in meditation, and so far it's just revealed just how tsunami-like the thoughts are, and how consumed I am with them in a matter of like no time, they can still upset me.

[PAUSE: 00:08:28 to 00:09:07]

THERAPIST: Well I guess there's also too, about it being difficult to talk to me about it when you're feeling that way.

CLIENT: Like consumed?

THERAPIST: Or something.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm always I feel like I'm always feeling that way. Once again, I get no sleep anyhow, most of the time. But I think there's a very strong habit there, and then there's a very strong emotional and maybe psychic force, like things are happening that are important. But there's also like this, (pause) this like suffocating habit that isn't like I can't really work with it, like I have to work with that first, it feels like, to bring any attention to what's underneath it. (pause) So I'm mostly talking about like in my sittings. (pause) Yeah. You had a crinkly face.

[PAUSE: 00:11:13 to 00:11:29]

CLIENT: So, okay, this is like okay, I'm not actually being that clear. So I have this urge or like this pattern, where some thought will come up, like recently, this thought came up that the first thing you said to me that was sort of a casual thing, like do you like that bike for getting around on, or like is that a nice bike to get around on. And that's a nice memory, it's a nice thought, but it's just like there always, that moment. Sort of like it plays itself back to me and I really want to change it and fix it and wonder why it's there and make it go away, or do a lot of like strong things to it, and it's been helping in my sittings, to just like have the thought, imagine myself holding myself, having a thought, and just imagining like a millimeter of air, space, and then that's the whole sitting, is that thought comes again and I do it over and over and over again. And it's not always that, it's not always thoughts about you, it's like of [Eleanor?].

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:13:27]

CLIENT: So that's it. That seems like a nice practice in general, but it's helping me see what feels see what's like emotional and upsetting and sad and what's (pause) just like zero space, to see your thing clearly, and that's also emotional and upsetting and sad.

[PAUSE: 00:14:05 to 00:14:56]

THERAPIST: I guess the thing there that's not yet clear to me is how that would interfere with free associating.

CLIENT: Oh, because it's like oh this thought is coming to my head, about the first thing you said to me, when really, the thought came to my head yesterday and it just hasn't left.

THERAPIST: And... (pause) I get that that's painful inside and frustrating for you, but (pause) I mean if that's what's on your mind, that's what's on your mind.

CLIENT: True.

THERAPIST: I guess it seems like it feels as though that would be wrong or not sort of productive.

CLIENT: Really obscuring... I think you're right. I was going to say obscuring was really on my mind, but... (pause) I don't know that there are levels like that. (pause) [00:16:48]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it seems as though for some reason it's unacceptable.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Well, it's the sense of being in the throes of, or like in the grip of.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I can't really speak to you as myself. I'm speaking to you as like this captive self and maybe that's the whole point. But like the recognition of how consuming it is, I guess is really bothering me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) [00:17:49]

CLIENT: But it's getting easier because I feel like I'm working with it more, like holding it more and also just sort of letting go of the hope that I will manage it or change it. So one way is like bringing it up. (pause) [00:18:53]

THERAPIST: I think it seems pretty clear that you're much more comfortable, difficult as it is, dealing with it in meditation, as compared to in associations in here.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I imagine that's because if you're associating in here, to think like that, you not only feel kind of in their grip and captive but in mine.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. [00:19:56]

THERAPIST: Which I think is probably very frightening and maybe a little shamey, by contrast to being the one to deal with it yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think I'm dealing with it myself here too, like bringing it up and working through it with you, but it doesn't feel like that. Like it's not as if I think Jay solved my problem for me, and I do see you as me a lot of the time. Does that make sense? [00:21:08]

THERAPIST: I don't quite follow but I had another thought, which is I think is a kind of subtle move there, which is to kind of very quickly correct yourself sort of, where I said I think it feels awful, because da-da-da, and you said well yeah, but you know, actually it relates not that way because really, it's more me doing it in here, da-da-da, which I don't disagree with, but I think you changed your orientation pretty quickly, away from the way of experiencing it that you wanted to avoid. [00:22:12]

CLIENT: Ah-huh. I think thinking about it changes it.

THERAPIST: I think you also want to avoid it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess what I mean is I think by thinking about it, it helps me avoid it. Like okay, if I like sit and think about it, it's like well, that's not really what's going on. What's going on is that I'm actually doing a lot of the work here too, but that's a very crafty and strategic way to turn it into something that sounds better to me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:23:12]

CLIENT: Whereas like it doesn't feel that way at all. It actually feels like I'm... really, really dependent.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And it's not something that I feel good about, mostly because of the way that I'm afraid other people will treat it and react, like grandma or Jeremy. It's like I'm really insecure about it, about like... about like the facts and also the feeling of feeling dependent, the facts being like there's Jay, I see him all the time, I pay this much money, I take time away from other things. That's a really hard reality, and like the feelings being, not only am I doing all these things that are hard to confidently talk about but also, it comes along with this, or it's bringing out this like all-consuming sort of latchy brain mode which is full to the brim with missing and sadness and mourning.

[PAUSE: 00:25:33 to 00:26:33]

CLIENT: With rumination.

THERAPIST: And I gather you're often worried, do you think often worried that I will that your need or dependence will push me away, or I will be critical of it in a way that will make me want to be there less for you. And I think there are probably interactions we have where it actually feels like that's what's going on. Like yesterday, with what we were talking about.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. [00:28:12]

THERAPIST: It's hurting now that maybe it felt to you as though (pause) I think you kind of made it very clear, although I wasn't clear on the context really, until now, that you know, like yesterday, when we were talking about your sort of doing things to kind of pull me in, in a way, asking questions, or sort of showing that I was with you and wanted to be. It felt like there's an implication for me that you shouldn't do that, that that's bad. I guess that came up the other day.

CLIENT: That's kind of where I am at those times too. [00:29:12]

THERAPIST: Yes. So it's actually like the playing out in a way, where it feels like the playing out of what happens with Jeremy and with your mom.

CLIENT: It went past me.

THERAPIST: Sorry. (pause) It's like I'm kind of shaming you for wanting me close that way, and kind of telling you you're wrong for wanting it, and implying that I don't want to be because you want it.

CLIENT: By not...

THERAPIST: Like talking about it.

CLIENT: Sort of agreeing to -

THERAPIST: Sorry.

CLIENT: What does yesterday have to do with this? [00:30:14]

THERAPIST: In a way, how the feel of the sort of interaction you've had at times with Jeremy or with your mom.

CLIENT: I see, yeah. Like, by not going along with what I wanted, what I was asking for.

THERAPIST: Right, there was shame but sorry, go ahead.

CLIENT: Yeah, you were shaming me.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Telling you that it was wrong to want that, or that I didn't get that you would want that.

CLIENT: I think I felt that way. I don't think I know how I think you feel about my dependence. I think I completely don't think about it and avoid it. So, you could be right, but it will have to come out in some other way. You could be right about the fact that I think the more dependent I feel or I am, the less you will want to be around me. It's strange to say that I don't know what I think about that, but I don't. I never try to think about that, that's probably an indication, I think. (pause) I guess it occurs to me that you might like it, but I don't know that that's actually the dominant thing. Maybe that's just what I have chosen to land on, because it feels better and everything.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:32:32]

CLIENT: I guess sometimes it occurs to me that you're just sort of, you know, like birthing me, and like this is the way it is, and you're not surprised or affected in any of the ways that maybe I might think you are. And maybe that's painful. That is painful.

[PAUSE: 00:33:12 to 00:33:59]

THERAPIST: Well, I'm thinking, in practice, a lot of the time you feel like I'm being critical of it. I don't think that's sort of what you're like stepping back and thinking about it but I think that's how it feels in the interaction.

CLIENT: It's too like closed off. (pause) Or it's like too confusing or something. Sometimes it doesn't at all, because you're always willing to give me more than I wanted and yet, you're never willing to give me more than I wanted. (long pause) Yeah, that's sort of how it feels. That's a very intense combination, you bastard. I wonder if the way that you... like the way that your analyst is, affects your analyst-ness. Like, maybe you take yourself apart and you put yourself back together in a way that is less influenced by childhood and other forces. I don't know. Like maybe you put yourself back together in a way that's less influenced by other forces, but entirely influenced by your analyst.

THERAPIST: Hmm. [00:36:56]

CLIENT: Or not entirely but inseparably, inseparable from the way that that person's psyche was taken apart and put back together, and the personality. So in a sense, this is like also a self-discovery process again, for you.

THERAPIST: Sorry, I'm a little confused. So, when I think about myself, I think about myself in terms of my relationship with my analyst?

CLIENT: Like the way you are with me is imprinted by the way your analyst is with you.

THERAPIST: I see. So, I'm getting a chance to observe and experience what that's like.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:38:03]

THERAPIST: My analyst's imprint on me, through my interactions with you.

CLIENT: Ah-huh.

[PAUSE: 00:38:08 to 00:38:43]

THERAPIST: That sounded like, so take that you sucker.

CLIENT: What? I don't I don't think so.

THERAPIST: Like, maybe not, but you know like, you're just as much kind of dependent and affected and feeling like the bitch of this process.

CLIENT: No, I think you're not just as much, but it seems hard to imagine that you're not just a product of some other facet, some other process that's different from your first process, which is like your family and childhood and your community and all those things. So not you're just a process of something else.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: That maybe is a lot more closer to, or a lot close to your... your true process, but I don't know about that. [00:40:03]

THERAPIST: Or still mediated by.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Our relationship as well.

CLIENT: Right.

[PAUSE: 00:40:09 to 00:41:13]

THERAPIST: I do think, like you need to flatten me out a bit with that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Or like to flatten this out maybe. (pause) Do you ever switch chairs, like switch the chairs?

THERAPIST: I used to sometimes. I haven't recently but I probably should, so they were right.

CLIENT: I don't know if you should or you shouldn't. [00:42:20]

THERAPIST: (laughs) While we're talking about switching chairs, is there anything else you want to talk about with me and my analyst?

CLIENT: Yeah, tons. Tons. Male or female.

THERAPIST: Also that I'm in analysis.

CLIENT: You told me that you're not going to be in analysis starting in the fall, so you lied.

THERAPIST: No, I don't think I would have said that.

CLIENT: Sure, I guess it's an assumption. I mean, you said a couple of times, that your insight, your analytic training, that involves being in analysis. [00:43:26]

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's true.

CLIENT: So, I guess that's where I'm getting that from.

THERAPIST: I probably need to make sure this I was in a long analysis, so that's time.

CLIENT: In my brain it's like, it's done? What does that mean?

THERAPIST: Literally, I mean, I -

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay. (pause)

CLIENT: Do you get it, why that's so hard? (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I have a bunch of thoughts but I'm not sure. [00:44:34]

CLIENT: You have a bunch of thought and you're not sure?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Well, it's hard because naturally, I don't want this to ever end.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And... (pause) It makes it seem like you have some calluses or like a callous, that (pause) a callus is a very strange way to put it. You know, some kind of permanent mark as a result of constant friction maybe, or constant exploration, or just a very deep, close relationship. So you're like this alien being, because you've been through this like long journey which to me, it seems like unimaginable, how and why and when, an end would come, to which an end would come. And so you must like I imagine, like myself, I imagine how much, like how many whims I will have grown, or something, or how many calluses I would acquire. But who knows, maybe you'll die, maybe I'll die, we all will. Those are the only three options. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: All right, well that's clear. [00:46:51]

CLIENT: I'm kidding.

THERAPIST: I know.

CLIENT: I made this list yesterday. Are you done talking about the other thing?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I was upset about our session and I I was upset because I wanted to, like... Have you seen "Sex in the City?"

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's good. There's this scene where Samantha has been like sleeping with Smith for a long time.

THERAPIST: Smith. Is that that hotel owner guy? [00:47:58]

CLIENT: That is Richard and he's gone, but he comes back for one episode during the Smith relationship, but Smith is after Richard.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Smith is like this actor and he's really hot and younger. Have you seen any Smith episodes? Season six was the last season. Maybe you saw season five. So anyway, Smith and Samantha have been sleeping together. They really love it, they like each other a lot, like it's working, everything is fine. It's very different for Smith because she doesn't like sleep with only one person. They're like walking down the street and Smith tries to hold her hand, and she just lets it go and keeps walking. They're walking, walking. He tries to hold her hand again and she lets it go, she lets his hand go. And then they're walking, walking, and they're walking past this like storage or escape hatch in the sidewalk, where like it leads to the basement. [00:49:17]

THERAPIST: Like tunnels underground?

CLIENT: They're like all over the city. You have a building, there's a sidewalk, and there's this like metal, iron, these like hatch doors that open, and there are stairs downstairs, and you see, like if it's a supermarket, there's like crates and crates of vegetables. So it's like the basement, the street entry to the basement, but it's like this -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's not a formalized entry. So this thing is open. Samantha is so freaked out about this hand holding thing that the third time she lets go, she slips and falls into this stairwell hatch thing, into a pile of lettuce. Smith is like, "Babe?" And she's like, "I'm fine, I'm fine." Then he tries to hold her hand again and she's like, "Smith, I'm just not that kind of girl." And Smith is like, Samantha, I like you, you like me, I've had enough of this horseshit, just hold my fucking hand, and she was like okay, but only until my foot heals. It's like a turning point for them, but the way that Smith said that, "Samantha, I've had enough of this horseshit," is the way that I felt about myself yesterday and maybe is the way that I felt, like you were saying that to me, or you were I wished that you were, where... It's just like, just talk, don't fall into the hatch thing, like don't, (pause) don't do anything, just like be, be and talk.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:51:49]

CLIENT: It was really frustrating, that I it was frustrating that I so many things were frustrating, that I was thinking about it, that I was not just like letting the fact that I was just being, be.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And I wanted to (pause) understand it more. So at some point in that, where there's endless waiting, waiting for things, I started to make this list of all the things that like have stayed on in my mind, of things to talk about with you.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:52:52]

CLIENT: So it's tons of fun to make because it brought so much clarity, and then like I looked at it and realized one, you were totally right, like I am anxious to talk about the things, but not because the items themselves are anxiety provoking or that I'm anxious about them, but for some reason, looking at the whole list together, like those constellation of things made a very, very striking have like a striking thumbprint of anxiety or soothingness. So that was cool. I want to share the list with you but it's like 18 items long.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:54:20]

CLIENT: I have to explain some of the things. I kind of just want to like give it to you.

THERAPIST: Whatever you like.

CLIENT: Can I give it to you so that you see how these things come together, and maybe I will like read the items?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) I felt this way about the wedding pictures too, the process, what should the process be.

[PAUSE: 00:55:33 to 00:56:19]

CLIENT: I'm stuck.

THERAPIST: Uh-oh.

[PAUSE: 00:56:24 to 00:57:14]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Instagram. Do you know about Instagram?

THERAPIST: Not really. Is it like, I don't know, sort of a social network where the content is pictures instead of text?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so you have smartphone pictures and you post them on your Instagram wall or site, and the people who you have let follow you see them on their news feed. Put them on your Facebook and they required Instagram, but you don't have to have Facebook to have it. So, Instagram is this like totally cool way that I feel so connected to the seven people who follow me, who are like my mom, Jeremy's mom, Jeremy's sister, my brother, Jeremy's family's very good friend, just outside Los Angeles. [Genevieve?], that's her name and her daughter's name is Veronica. And my good friend, Brenda. Those are the people, and Jeremy.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [00:58:38]

CLIENT: Tammy, Jeremy's sister, posts like five pictures a day, of Michael, and she's the one who sort of started it. So, I adore this medium and it's so nice for me to just like have this little friend, or way to reach people I love, through pictures, because I was never a fan of text updates. And it's also been this amazing way for me to capture beauty in the world and share it. (pause) Number two. If you want to ask about any of these you should. [00:59:45]

People's anger. I never noticed it before. I've noticed it in the last couple of months. People have anger, people are angry, and it totally freaks me out and I don't want to avoid it or I don't think I do. I want to like jump into it and help everybody. And maybe that's related to number three, which is this thing that I've also noticed. People have always felt comfortable talking to me, but people like really, really talk to me, you know? Like they confide in me, they tell me about their anxieties, and their bad things that happened in their life, the catastrophic things. And this is like a lot of different people, like Joanne and Jeremy and Betty, and so I have all three of them, and like my mom and Brian, the farmer, and a couple of other random people that I just smile at and say hi to all the time, and just recently, a couple of these people just like dropped these bombs on me, and I can hold it and it's really cool. And I don't know if it's because of my overt, you know, like I'm on my journey and people know about my journey. It's part of how I feel less and less ashamed about it, is to talk about it, but not all the people know. So I wonder what it is. [01:02:00]

And Jeremy, Jeremy talks to me a lot. He might not agree to that, he might say I've always talked to you the same amount, but it's not what I've noticed. Sex in the City. I shared this list with Jeremy last night, which will come up later in the list, and he was surprised that I hadn't shared Sex in the City with you before, but not surprised at any of the others.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I watch Sex in the City the way that you like would visit a sick friend who's been sick for like six years. (both laugh) I turn on the TV and I never I haven't watched TV in a long time, but Jeremy calls it my cannon, where it's like sixties and then the movie, but not the second movie, that's not part of the cannon.

THERAPIST: I see. [01:03:21]

CLIENT: And so basically, in the last year of college, I started watching it and I never watched it before, and have over the course of the six years, accumulated most like bought most of the episodes for 99 cents each, on iTunes, and I will just like my life could just be like Sex in the City from the first episode to the last, to the movie, and then back again. I finished it on Monday.

THERAPIST: Oh, wow.

CLIENT: Again. This is like for the maybe tenth time. I probably go around like twice a year or something, so that's like an episode a week, maybe a couple of episodes a week. (pause) Yeah, there's a lot of feelings there. I'm so glad that you've seen it. I think most people know, but maybe that's not prevalent for you. Street cat calls, like every day since I was like 13, maybe every other day, like some man will like honk or like yell at me from the car, or whisper something in my ear as he's walking by. They're always low-lives and they just exist, they're a part of my life. They're like always there and it's not the white men don't talk, but sometimes it's white men too, mostly brown men, who are low-lives, and occasionally there will be a brown man who's not a lowlife and then it's like thanks. I'm going to show people, like thank you, or like I don't know, everything. Everything. Jeremy is like endlessly fascinated with it and thinks that it's not such a negative thing. I don't know. [01:06:05]

THERAPIST: How does it usually feel to you when it happens? Does it vary a lot?

CLIENT: Usually it feels like I want to get away fast and like I want to roll my eyes and I just want to say like, I don't know. But more and more, it's feeling like I want to turn around and like look the person in the eye and like see what's up with them. It depends on what they say. If it's like the, "Hey mommy," then it's like hey, like sometimes they'll just say hey. But if it's something more complex, like, "Where are you from, gorgeous?" Yeah, it depends on that, yeah. Sometimes it's women too.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [01:07:18]

CLIENT: That's nice, I feel great about that, because it hasn't happened too often and the women haven't looked low-lifey. Yeah, it's a strange race to them, like sometimes I want the white men to say things and I feel more loved if they're white, instead of like sort of dirty and annoyed if they're brown. My mom's family's performatory dynamic.

THERAPIST: I think you mentioned most recently, in that e-mail, when you were down there.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. I mean, there are all sorts of like subtle things that I think have really, really shaped me, and the way that it feels to me to be around family, like what is it like to be around family, it's like all these things. But when I was there, I noticed how overt it is, especially like with the children. It's like there are two little great grandchildren and we're all doing this joint puja, where like all the different people celebration, and at the end of it, it was like okay, now George is going to sing this song or whatever, into the microphone, go. And he's like I don't want to, I don't want to, and his brother was like, "I do, I do, I'll do it." So like he starts singing, he likes sings and sings and sings, it's like no one really cares.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [01:09:21]

CLIENT: But there's like a couple of forces in the family that make that happen. And then Phil, the older brother, is like okay, I'll sing now too, and it's this long performatory thing. And then, like my grandmother, [Nonna.] later on is like okay, now... And she's like yelling, like so loud, "Now, all the grandchildren are going to announce whose children they are and who their spouses are." So it's like Richa, go, and it's like microphone. I actually feel great doing it, I'm not nervous at all, but it sort of like squashes out the introvertedness from anyone who has any, and clearly, like Jeremy is totally unhappy and uncomfortable there, but he deals with it. And it's not always on a big scale, sometimes it's just like a few people. It's kind of like, what do you think about this? You must have some thing, some crafted thing, some answer. And I think that has a lot to do with how much of that seemed important coming from another country and establishing themselves here. Like, it ties in very closely with goals, like you should have a goal and you should do X, Y, Z, to accomplish it, and you should have all these ways to measure it, and don't be adrift. [01:11:22]

And I get it, if you're adrift, it's hard to like go from poverty to in the case of my dad, to like, you know, getting a Fulbright in the PhD program, that he got. Like there's not really a lot of time for being adrift, or space. I think my dad has a lot of that, but in my mom's family, they're loud and they're always used to being around people and they're used to organizing and sort of being didactic and reading people. So, you know people who don't have that personality kind of get like confused with that. (pause)

THERAPIST: My impression is that, like what you're telling me so far about the items and the list, there's mostly headlines really, and some detail, but that there's, I think like a lot more to each of these.

CLIENT: Yeah. [01:13:24]

THERAPIST: Because I guess partly why I don't have a whole lot to say, because (pause) like we're only five or six topics in and each one covers a lot.

CLIENT: Yes, this is very typical of me, like no topics, no topics, no topics, all of them all at once. I'm just going to list the rest of them.

THERAPIST: Sure. Any way you want is okay. I just feel like there's so much in what you're telling me.

CLIENT: I know, it's so frustrating, but it feels good to have them on paper. [01:14:33]

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: To say them.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Nothingness. There's the clean pain of nothingness, that I don't have very many okay, I guess I'm not listing them, because I'm going to talk about this. Out of like a few moments of experiencing this feeling, sort of unadultered, and then there's like this wash of total fear, like I'm dying, like this is the worst possible way to feel ever, and this is the root of most really, really, really, really badness for me. [01:15:36]

THERAPIST: So, -

CLIENT: But the nothingness go ahead.

THERAPIST: Are you mostly in meditation?

CLIENT: It comes up a lot in meditation but then it comes up not in meditation and not like I don't have any tools for it and then it just feels like I've lost everything, where like I have nothing, I am nothing. But I was in the bath a couple weeks ago and all these bubbles, white bubbles, bubbles, bubbles, and at some point, I just started to feel this like complete lack of relation to any of the bubbles or the bathtub or my body or the water or any of the plans in my head or any of this beyond me. Like the bureau, connections. (pause) It's so scary. [01:17:08]

So mostly what I end up feeling in relation to this time, this like paralyzing fear, I'm like wanting it to go away, I'm wanting to change it, I'm wondering why it's there and I'm relating it to the last time.

THERAPIST: Is it like trying to grasp on it?

CLIENT: But it's there, it's like inside me, it's part of me, it's not going away.

THERAPIST: Ah-huh. And does it mostly occur during moments of sort of where you're relaxed?

CLIENT: Sure, yeah, or like there's some great pause in the day. [01:18:22]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't think relaxed. I don't think it always happens during relaxing. It happens when I'm alone and when I'm, maybe like -

THERAPIST: When there's a space?

CLIENT: Yeah, when there is like time, and when I'm anxious, you know like the bath isn't like... (pause) Like the bath is like a response to a feeling of anxiety. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't.

THERAPIST: You're feeling anxious, you took a bath to relax.

CLIENT: Then it comes up a lot in meditation. Dreams. I never talk about my dreams any more. Jeremy's life, Jeremy (inaudible). He really worries me and upsets me and I feel so much love for him and I want to help him. He talks as if he doesn't like his wife and he doesn't like marriage. He's been married for like nine months. He's got the makings of an alcoholic, he works like crazy. He's very anxious at times and he shares these anxieties with me more and more, but the rest of the time he's totally like the surfer guy, who I once described to you as (inaudible), but I've revised I still think he's very sexy but I don't think he would be good in bed. I wonder how much sex he has and I also think I could help him there. But I think about him a lot. [01:20:36]

My mom once said, or my mom says sometimes, that like or I don't know, it's not very clear in my head. She said to me recently, a few months ago, that I have made a difficult choice in marrying Jeremy, which she has said before. She said it a lot in the beginning, like this is going to be difficult, are you sure you want this? I mentioned this to Jeremy's mom, who's totally this great person to talk to. I talk to her a lot about sort of loneliness, and also my mom. She and Tammy, examining their dynamic a lot these days, because Tammy and Thomas are in couples therapy and most of it is about Tammy's mom, which I guess that's what it is for a lot of people.

THERAPIST: Sure. I guess I was sort of laughing at first, not answering because you're talking to because she's in couples therapy and she's blaming her for shit or whatever. [01:22:06]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or just doing whatever.

CLIENT: That's what it is, they're both blaming her for shit. So, Samantha talks to me about that and I talk to Samantha about or Samantha notices things about my mom and I'm very happy at this time, to have a certain person to talk to about it. So anyway, Samantha was like, she was sort of upset by this thing that my mom said.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And we talked. Samantha asked me if we could talk about it on the phone at length, after our visit, and we talked about it.

THERAPIST: This is fairly recently?

CLIENT: Yeah, this was like the beginning of July.

THERAPIST: Did your mom say it again recently or this is before?

CLIENT: No, she said it like maybe in June at some point, and she said it in the context of like, I was sort of complaining or I was like lamenting the fact that it's going to be very hard to have my family commune dream. [01:23:08]

THERAPIST: Your family commune dream?

CLIENT: You know, like all the people in my life all live in the same place and we all work in the fields or something together.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: And maybe other people have real jobs, that we don't have to work that hard, or maybe I have a real job, but I don't have to work that hard.

THERAPIST: A kibbutz.

CLIENT: Yeah, kind of like a kibbutz, but what I've heard about people's experiences in kibbutz, is it is not as utopian. Yeah, but kind of like a kibbutz. My mom, her response to that was like well, you kind of made it difficult for yourself, and the conversation didn't go very far after that, because I think I agreed with her, which... Because I think I knew what she was trying to say and maybe I just didn't want to talk about it anymore. The things that came to my head were, I married a non-Italian guy and this is something that has been, for my mom, a fact, like if you marry outside your culture, you are going to be isolated. It's very hard actually, and two, you married a person whose personality is like his social needs are like super, super, super different from yours and your life is going to be harder. [01:24:57]

So, Jeremy and I talk about this a lot, not so much the culture thing, which I don't actually see as important to me right now, but the social needs always comes up. He wants to be in, not left out, and it came out yesterday because I was just, I was feeling really dark. That and kind of like this emptiness feeling but with a lot more anxiety, and I was supposed to oh, and like Jeremy wanted to have sex with me for so long, just because I had my period, which is totally unreasonable and mean, and it's become a joke and it's been like five days of my like begging, play begging. But yesterday was like the first real day where I was like okay, my period is over, and he (inaudible) right now. And it's very hard. So I was going to sleep and he was like, I'll be there really soon, I'll be there soon, tonight, and then he didn't, and I came back out and went to try to meditate and stopped and decided that what I really wanted is a hug. I gave him a hug, I would ask for a hug, and Jeremy was like not wearing clothes and I'm like hugging him, and started like crying, crying, crying. Thanks for the hug and go back and then he followed me, which is really nice, and then we talked a lot. We talked about this place and at the end of all of this, I gave him a foot rub so that he would be a better listener and talker, which he was, it was fantastic. [01:27:24]

At the end of all of this, when it was time for him to brush his teeth and for me to turn the light off, he said, "I worry that I don't water you enough." I think because like what had just happened, was like a really long ritual watering session.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I said that's really nice, I thought I think it's really nice that you say that Jeremy, because I agree, and it's so nice that we can just like say it and sort of work with it. If you know that you don't water me a lot, you don't water me enough, how come you're not just like watering me more? (laughs) [01:28:27]

THERAPIST: That was coming, right?

CLIENT: My question?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, a fair question. So he said, I don't have enough water, I don't have all the water. I said oh, okay, good thing other people have water for me.

THERAPIST: That's nice.

CLIENT: Yeah. It was really good, I'm so glad. So, this thing that my mom said and that I think about, about my choice of spouse, and I could have married somebody who has more water for me, I don't know.

THERAPIST: It sounds complicated to me with your mom. [01:29:29]

CLIENT: I know, it's complicated.

THERAPIST: This is about your being more isolated. Maybe someday but if this is about now, it doesn't make any sense to me, you talk to them all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it's more like I didn't marry into another community like mine, like Jeremy doesn't have his own family circle.

THERAPIST: Right, okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. I really have a lot of love for Tammy and the meditation guy and teacher, and I want to kiss and hug her and I want to assume things. And it's one of many, many transferrings, relationships that I think I have in my life, or that I've had. So that's (inaudible). I can think of like five really, really strong ones in my childhood. I'm going to just say the last thing.

THERAPIST: Okay, we're going to speed to the last thing for now, yeah. [01:30:58]

CLIENT: Sexy guitarists that I like will watch, whose videos I will watch on YouTube and just like drool. The farm. Colors on the farm, colors and painting, colors in here, colors in my clothes, colors, colors, colors. Kyle, the first drummer who really, really, really hurt me, I still like yearn for him and I want him, and I still feel the pain. Then the last thing is pregnant dog phenomenon, which is like Jeremy has noticed that in anxious situations, a travel or like I'm hungry or I'm too tired or something is really bothering me, where maybe before these last six months, I would be really panicked. Now he says that I'm like a dog giving birth, where I'm just like so still and so overtly sitting with it, and I'm trying so hard to just like be, but clearly, it still really bothers me and I'm trying so hard. [01:32:41]

THERAPIST: Right. You're pretty tight.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm really tight. The pregnant dog-ness is like happening a lot in life, and it's something that I sense to me the last years.

THERAPIST: When?

CLIENT: That was the day you weren't feeling you were physically not feeling well. Times like you were just have you watched a dog give birth?

THERAPIST: Mm-mm.

CLIENT: You should watch it on YouTube. I haven't seen it live but the dog just is dealing with it, like life's a bitch. (laughs) And so are dogs, so are dogs sometimes. There, you seemed like you were just dealing with it.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: A little bit. [01:33:44]

THERAPIST: Yeah, my thought was that the list, it's like some of the flowers that you want watered and how you worry also will be, or something like that.

CLIENT: The list is like the flower?

THERAPIST: Yeah, the things to water.

CLIENT: Yeah, like they're going to die. (both laugh)

THERAPIST: I wasn't thinking of it quite that way. You know, there are things you the watering, as I understood, it was like being attended to. Yeah. And those are some of the things.

CLIENT: That I want you to attend to? [01:34:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah, because I've known about, they really matter to you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And part enlivening to you and to talk about.

CLIENT: I would like to hear about some time, about how the whole thing hangs together, because I think it really does. There's like this anxiety, running away from anxiety thing going on in the list, but none of the items themselves, except maybe this really scary emptiness, really is that bothersome to me in the sense that I would bring it up here and it's yeah.

THERAPIST: We should stop. Do you want to leave the list with me or take it?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. [01:36:04]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Thanks. Okay.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: Bye.

THERAPIST: Bye-bye, see you Monday.

END TRANSCRIPT