TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Perfect.

THERAPIST: Sorry.

CLIENT: That's okay. (pause) I don't know how old I was. I must have been like six or seven. (pause) He had me practice on a rope or three ropes.

[PAUSE: 00:01:05 to 00:01:56]

CLIENT: He's so scarred. (pause) I wish he had made different choices, to make the suffering less.

THERAPIST: What do you wish he had done differently?

CLIENT: I wish he had remarried or tried to, but instead he took this oath of celibacy. When she died, he was like 30-something. I can figure out how old he was. Dad was born in 1958. He was like between ten and fifteen, I don't remember how old. Maybe he was 12, so that's 1970. Isabelle was born in 1923, '24. So he was 46. (pause) He was old. (pause) Yeah, I guess that sounds right. But yeah, seeing his life and his isms and like from the decision of his, has not been it just doesn't seem like it's done much for him. [00:04:48]

Sex seems really important. (pause) Jay?

THERAPIST: Yes? What?

[PAUSE: 00:05:19 to 00:05:42]

CLIENT: I think his presence shaped my parents' life so much and our life so much. (pause) You think they would have raised us differently if he hadn't been around all the time, and their life would be so different now. Like they don't... (pause) It's sort of like having a kid again, like I have another kid. [00:07:05]

My dad has been sad so he's been mean to my brother recently and my mom told me she told him, like you don't have an empty nest, your nest is so full, you're like totally occupied with your father. Wait until you really have an empty nest. I wonder where that was coming from for her. (pause) He surprised me by expressing a lot of interest in wanting a sports car convertible, my dad, but he didn't get it. He got an electric hybrid. He got this electric hybrid Prius, which is like way cooler in some ways than a sports car convertible. (pause) In the eyes of his crunchy children. He drives 80 miles a day so it does make sense.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

[PAUSE: 00:09:11 to 00:09:50]

CLIENT: I wonder about the health of (inaudible).

[PAUSE: 00:09:53 to 00:12:40]

THERAPIST: I'm sort of having fun thinking about your dad in the sports car convertible and the different ways that he and your mother are dealing with this week, having an empty nest.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Her explaining why he shouldn't be feeling that way.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And him saying fuck that shit, I'm getting a sports car.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm extrapolating a little bit there. I'm thinking about you and grief and... (pause) Sort of about ways that you are like your mom about it and other ways you are like your dad.

CLIENT: My mom says that she's like her mom and that she says oh well, move on and it's cast in their sights. Well, my philosophy is to stay positive and to like look at what I have to do today. And I'm so rooted in faith that it's almost like, you know, it's somewhat (inaudible) in that there's not a whole lot of like, self. There's not a whole lot of like this is me, these are my feelings, these are all the things that are happening to me. There is some aspect of this is not self, this is like in my mom's eyes it's like this is what God wants and I will be the I will bear out these things and then I will go back to where I came from. [00:15:32]

The, not for this part about it, which is most of it, from the teeny that I know or that I absorbed, is there's not a whole lot of like knowledge or honest about what the feelings and thoughts are or knowing the true nature of things. (pause)

THERAPIST: I'm not close enough to have a feel for it but it seems to be plausible that there could be a fair amount of aversion in pushing away.

CLIENT: Like not the sort of basic acceptance that I'm describing, of this is what's given to me or this is what I have to face in my [Wyatt?] configuration. [00:16:50]

THERAPIST: Yeah, or this is some stuff I'm feeling and what it's like, whether I want it to be or not.

CLIENT: Right, like that's not there, there's an aversion to that.

THERAPIST: An aversion to the particular feelings themselves. But again, -

CLIENT: There is. At least there's something that serves to make it not be a part of the conversation or the it doesn't seem like it's on the surface. I mean, I don't really know what it's like to have parents whose bad feelings are on the surface. I can't really imagine what that dynamic would be like, like how the feelings would come out, how I would relate to them, how the parent would make it part of my life. Or if it wouldn't be an avert teaching moment or anything like that, but maybe you just know when somebody is in pain, the more that I have. My only reference is really like Jeremy's parents, and all my family members, but they're all very similar, I think, to my parents. [00:18:25] (pause)

So the image of my dad driving a sports car convertible, I think it's very natural. He drove a motorcycle for a long time, before he got married. He's always driven manual transmission cars and like always revs up the RPM, and he sort of drives like he's driving a sports car anyway. But it's not him, he's too much of a genius nerd. [00:19:31] (pause)

THERAPIST: There's this quality of everything just has to be so good.

CLIENT: (chuckles) It doesn't have to be it is. (both laugh) It is. Tell me something that's not good. Joanne has said that before to me. I think Joanne probably knows more about me than anyone through the years. That's a strange thing to say. I think she has a very like deep access to me, like in a way that you do too and Jeremy does, but it's strange because I don't see her outside a lot ever. So anyway, she says that sometimes, like she'll hear something new about my family and it will be like oh, of course, because it's just like the most horrible family in the world, or like if she's not being sarcastic, it will be like [00:21:24]

THERAPIST: So here's the most recent example I can see.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Where Joanne has said things like that, and Joanne must have some very rare access to you, in order to be able to perceive that something like that could be true, because it couldn't be clear enough, you know, if she's just smart or insightful and kind of knows you, she would pick up on it.

CLIENT: Why don't you come out and say it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Most people joke around saying you have the most perfect family. That's a strange thing to say to somebody. At least I could never say that to anyone, maybe that's part of it. I could never say anything like you have the most perfect family or you have the most unperfect family, or like any judgment like that. I think also, it comes from the fact that Joanne is miserable in her family. But God. [00:22:34]

Why does it seem to you that everything has to be so good? I think it's because you spend too much time with people in this country who have too many bad things to say about their family. I think that's part of the culture.

THERAPIST: Well, I sort of wouldn't presume to say about the culture, but... (pause) Well, okay.

[PAUSE: 00:24:00 to 00:24:34]

THERAPIST: You've also just finished telling me that your mother's outlook is to be pretty relentlessly positive about things.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. And her mother is too.

THERAPIST: And you've also told me how much that can drive you crazy, when you're on the receiving end of it. How you feel like she doesn't listen to what you're trying to say or she says things that really bother you because she's not taking account of how you feel, or she is kind of pushing how you feel and what you're trying to communicate about it, out of the conversation. (pause) And at the same time, you're defending what she's doing and how she is that way.

CLIENT: By saying it's good? [00:25:44]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't think that part is good. (pause) But I'm not sure what to do with it. (pause)

THERAPIST: You're describing a way that she kind of did that to your dad, right?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. [00:26:46]

THERAPIST: And we've also talked a lot about, really quite a lot, in a way, about the effects on her having been this way with you, on how you deal with grief, how much harder it makes it to talk about, to think about, to orient yourself to.

CLIENT: I don't know what it would be like otherwise, so I can... (pause) Sort of like they abstractly, recognize some of the consequences of her relations with grief or me. I'm not really like on the other side of it, like having really developed my own way of working with grief, that works better. So, I don't know that there is a better way. [00:28:32]

THERAPIST: Sure you do, in that you know how other people in your life have responded differently when you've talked about having trouble. Things like when Jeremy listens or is supportive says something incredibly cute and bright when you're feeling grief.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: I mean, maybe there's a way in which like sure, that kind of response from him or anyone else in your life hasn't sort of aggregated up into some kind of new approach that is part of who you are, but in the moment, I think you know very clearly, how the one feels different from the other and which you'd prefer.

CLIENT: Sure. Well, I wouldn't have married my parents. (chuckles) At all. They're not right for me. I don't know how it's that useful, other than to change my relationship with grief, to spend a whole lot of time criticizing them. [00:30:08]

THERAPIST: Let's see. Well I think in some ways you feel pretty critical of them, although I think you tend to kind of cover that over with a kind of ennoblement at times, of how they have done things.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And I'm not saying there isn't things to admire about them. I'm just saying that you also have made it clear, as you just explained, that there are ways that they're not right for you.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And I am pretty confident that you have some strong feelings about some of that, that's not just a fact in the world that's sort of a relatively neutral and non-charged one. But I think it is one that you're at times, kind of defended against. [00:31:09]

CLIENT: But they are so sweet.

THERAPIST: I'm sure they are. I guess another reason that the sports car and the hybrid seems apropos to me to in that, like I don't know if this is true in reality but it certainly seems, in the way that you put it to be, he's feeling like an empty nester, his kids are out of the house and off living their lives and doing their things. His older daughter just got married. You know, I'm totally extrapolating, you're saying oh that kind of sucks, you know like...

CLIENT: Yeah, I think it totally sucks for him.

THERAPIST: And he's sad.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: And maybe like a bad character in a way but not in another way, like he wants a sports car. You know, I sort of made the connection, or I don't know if there is one, but like that's partly a reaction to feeling lost and aggrieved. [00:32:26]

CLIENT: I think that's totally a reaction.

THERAPIST: And one that, I know again, there's something in your tone, with the way that you put it, it seems like almost a self-conscious one.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like okay, yes, I'm a man in late middle age, an empty nester, I'm getting a fucking sports car. You know, like I know it doesn't make any sense, but that's what I want, I want red and I want a convertible and I want whatever. Of course it doesn't make sense. It sucks environmentally, it's probably expensive, it's probably not that practical in various ways, blah-blah-blah. But that's what he's saying he wants, like there's some way that it, you know, it is a kind of immature and a bit silly reaction to being upset. But he's kind of putting it out there.

CLIENT: I'm thinking about what you're going to do. [00:33:26]

THERAPIST: And then no, I'm sorry, I'm teasing you, but it's like no, but he's going to get a hybrid, because that makes sense. The kids, you're much happier if he gets the Prius and good gas mileage, and it makes a lot more sensible and it's good for the environment.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's got to be good, it's got to be I get it, and I'd probably feel the same way in a sense, but I think there's also an aspect of it that's like we'll have no voluntary (inaudible) about this. And then I think he just did that a little further and said well, you know, he'd never really do it because he's really ignorant and, you know, he's not that kind of a little sad.

CLIENT: There would be something very sad about his getting a red convertible sports car.

THERAPIST: Right. But he's feeling really sad. It doesn't sound like he necessarily gets the sports car anyway, but he maybe enjoyed a few fantasies of getting a sports car. [00:34:37]

CLIENT: For a long time.

THERAPIST: You know, the sadness, his sort of sadness and his feeling, I don't know what else, less, pathetic, whatever it is that he's feeling, it's hard to bear, I think it's really hard to bear.

CLIENT: Well, I haven't heard a thing about it.

THERAPIST: We just have a few minutes.

CLIENT: One way in which it seems like it's hard to bear, like I only hear about it from my mom.

THERAPIST: Right. Well, but even in talking about it, now I'm on your case, like...

CLIENT: Now you're on my case?

THERAPIST: No, I've been on your case the whole time.

CLIENT: Not before?

THERAPIST: Absolutely. It's good that he got the Prius and your mom's treatment of him sort of comes from her profound faith. [00:35:37]

CLIENT: I see. No. My mother's treatment of him comes from her saying move on and don't pay that much attention to this.

THERAPIST: Yeah, she's kicking him in the ass.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, I think it's important that my mom would have been so happy with whatever car he chose, because I think I think that's an acceptable way to deal with feeling sad to her.

THERAPIST: Why is that important? Well, I mean I'm asking leading questions, let me just say what I mean. I think it has to be okay that she would have been okay with it.

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Because I think the idea that she wouldn't have been okay with it, and maybe they really would have fought about it or she would have been really upset about it, there would have been strife, or people acting badly. It's really unsettling. [00:36:47]

CLIENT: I see.

THERAPIST: I'm not disputing your prediction about how she would have reacted. Maybe she would have been fine, that is great, it really is, but when you say it's really important to say that she would have been okay, I think part of why it's important is because the thought that she wouldn't be is really quite unsettling for you.

CLIENT: Probably to her too. Jeremy's dad wants a sports car convertible and Jeremy's mom is like no way, and I never sensed that from my mom at all. I sensed like dad is sad.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He'll do what he wants to do with this car thing, it's fine.

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