TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How's it going?

THERAPIST: Going all right.

(pause)

THERAPIST: What's on your mind?

CLIENT: So many things. I wonder if you moved that there for me, or if that's where it lives, now?

THERAPIST: I put it there.

CLIENT: Cool. I haven't sat there in a while.

THERAPIST: You're not that predictable, either, (inaudible at 00:00:54).

CLIENT: That's great news. [00:01:00] It's really nice that you put it there; thanks.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I guess part of me really wants to know which of my positions you prefer...but I guess I believe you said it didn't-no one was better than the other.

(pause)

THERAPIST: Or I guess worst (ph) get it right than answer.

CLIENT: That's fine. [Laughs]

I also wonder about the sunflower jar and whether it could live here. [00:02:03] In case there are other flowers.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I'm trying to use it to motivate me to get cut flowers.

CLIENT: Whoa. Really?

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk at 00:02:38), yeah!

CLIENT: Does anybody comment on the sunflowers?

THERAPIST: Yeah, a couple of [those have] (ph) (inaudible at 00:02:49).

CLIENT: Well, it seems like we're on the same wavelength. [00:03:00]

THERAPIST: I used to have plants in here. I had a bonsai tree that lived over there for a while and I had some orchids before I got the (inaudible at 00:03:10).

CLIENT: I know. I asked you about that.

THERAPIST: You did? [Laughs]

CLIENT: Uh huh. I told you you didn't have any plants in here and you said that you used to; and you used to have a bonsai. Maybe you didn't talk about the orchids and then I suggested that you try an easier plant. Also, orchids are so weird, because when they don't have flowers, they're sort of bad-looking. They're very heady plants. [00:04:00] You're a heady guy, I think.

(pause)

CLIENT: I also think you're a total mush.

THERAPIST: [Laughs] How do you mean?

CLIENT: I think it's not that hard to...make you turn into a puddle of love. [00:05:08] Your daughters have the best access to that, but I see it here, with me. And I see it here without meeting (ph). So those aren't mutually exclusive, at all.

THERAPIST: Well, I certainly hope you're right.

CLIENT: That's an annoying response.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: [Laughs] (Crosstalk at 00:05:43) annoyed.

CLIENT: "I certainly hope you're right"?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, like I aspire to that.

CLIENT: Oh! Cool.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I misunderstood.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:06:00]

CLIENT: I find myself counting down the hours to coming here to coming here, period.

(pause)

[00:07:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess I don't really have much else to say about that, but it feels important.

(pause)

CLIENT: I think I count down the hours to other things, too, but not so much, these days. It reminds me of the groups of five checkmarks that I made-it was like 100. [00:08:00] Ninety were left when I started seeing my cousins in Virginia again-I mean, in Kentucky again.

(pause)

CLIENT: It occurs to me how alone I was-that day, in those moments. I have such a vivid memory of it. I don't know, I was eight, or something-or nine. We had just come back from a week at the beach.

It was kind of like similar, same feelings as what I have sometimes, now, except there's not a purity of pain, now. [00:09:06] There's a lot more dirty pain and on top of the clean pain. But the clean pain was like..."This hurts so much. How am I going to live until the next time?"

It's like an ache.

I must have figured out that counting would bring relief, but I don't know where (inaudible at 00:09:52) it was in the house. How did I manage to draw 190...yeah, that's about right, even (ph); August to December. Maybe (inaudible at 00:10:13).

I don't think I shared it with anyone; I kept it in my drawer. Is that wrong? September, October, November; 30, 60, 90; and then half of August and half of December. A hundred and twenty; maybe a hundred and twenty.

Heady Jay. [Chuckles]

There wasn't this dialogue, going, "Hey! I figured out that counting is something I can do!" It was just like I was in my own world...with this achy, debilitating...feeling the pain. [00:11:06]

(pause)

CLIENT: Jeremy thinks that I loved my parents and my family life so much that I didn't notice the bad things-not that they were there and they were not welcome at home. But, obviously, this pain-there's no space for it. I guess I didn't notice that that was something that could have been there at that-when I was young. [00:12:00] Does that make sense?

Jeremy's interpretation of...my pain, now, is that he is-a direct quote-he's "a good margin less lovely" than my parents. And so I'm noticing a lot of things that their loveliness covered up about the world and myself and him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't think so, either. I do think that's a rude awakening. [00:13:00]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I mean, you couldn't say something like that unless it's true.

CLIENT: Hmm. Yeah, you couldn't. Well, it's sort of typical of him. He's pretty self...self-critical.

THERAPIST: [Isn't he] (ph) self-deprecating?

CLIENT: Self-deprecating, which is paired with a very strong...perfectionism and-I mean, all of it, I think, comes from a very strong fear of fear. [00:14:02] Fear of-who knows? A lot of fear, but sometimes it comes out in a self-deprecating. And often, it comes out in a..."I'm right, you're wrong."

He is usually right, if you're playing along with the game that somebody's right and somebody's wrong. Like the way the towel has to be hung best so that it dries. Or the way that the rubber ring inside a pressure cooker has to expand so that it forms the best seal and doesn't make a huge mess. Or the way you pour grains from one container to another so that it doesn't make a huge mess. [00:15:03]

(pause)

CLIENT: Or the way you don't-the way you should remember not to put a certain peeler on the end-grain walnut cutting board because it leaves a black-it reacts and leaves a black, chemical residue. These are things that I do often.

It's hard to argue-no, my way of putting the towel back, which is completely...haphazard and thoughtless and the towel isn't going to dry at all this way. Yeah, that's the wrong way, if you want the towel to dry. [00:16:01] Anyway.

Those are some vignettes.

(pause)

CLIENT: Three kinds of towels, by the way: kitchen towels; bathroom, hand towel; and bathing towel. The towels are a central character.

THERAPIST: I guess so.

CLIENT: [Chuckles] Causes him a lot of stress.

(pause)

[00:17:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I don't think we should have an affair, but I really want to.

(pause)

[00:18:00]

(pause)

[00:19:00]

(pause)

[00:20:00]

(pause)

[00:21:00]

CLIENT: I'm ready to move on from that thought.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Do you have anything to say? My mom has this theory about her sister, who got married at 18 and whose husband is a VP. She didn't really have a career. She didn't have a career.

THERAPIST: She (ph) husband is a VP at-

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: -she's not.

CLIENT: She's not the VP. My uncle is the VP. My mom's sister is-was a chemical engineer, everybody's (ph) an engineer. But then she didn't-

THERAPIST: [Is that wiped out] (ph)?

CLIENT: You're clearly not Tiger (ph) dad. There's a [Tiger hustle] (ph) that we do, but not the one that...is so common (inaudible at 00:22:29), where the only good jobs are quantitative. If you have to, you could be a lawyer; [if you're] (ph) the last rung on my acceptable ladder.

THERAPIST: I have heard that. I didn't know if you were referring to that or (inaudible at 00:22:54).

CLIENT: Sorry, I was so...me. [Chuckles] [00:23:04]

So there's some truth to it, because it is the engineers who got out of India who came here in the most successful way-in a successful way; as opposed to the population that came here and start businesses. They're good but they're really less well-to-do than the people who came here, got graduate degrees-or didn't, but came as quantitative engineer people.

So, yeah, everybody in my family, including all the people who married into the family started off as engineers. [00:24:01]

But my mom's theory is that her sister's not having a career has made her...insecure and wanting a lot of control in her life; wanting to control a lot of things about her environment and the people.

I was just thinking about how to apply it to Jeremy's mom and how I could see that happening if it's at all true; maybe it's bullshit. But the theory about how I can see a trajectory for Jeremy that would involve...something like what his mom has experienced, which is dabbling a lot in various different things, not working in a conventional career path. [00:25:04] And needing to have a huge amount of the home physical environment and then, also, [how it] (ph) manifests [in her] (ph).

THERAPIST: Sorry, it just occurs to me because partly the shifting of time and partly the length of our meeting I should take one minute-there's a small chance that I got an emergency message.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And I'd have to do very little, but I should just make sure that I do not. And I can arrange for not having to do that in the future, but...

(pause)

[00:26:00]

THERAPIST: Okay. All set; I'm sorry.

CLIENT: Did you?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Do you sometimes get emergency messages around now?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I...yeah.

CLIENT: That sounds stressful.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I usually check between...

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

(pause)

CLIENT: You can't focus on anything else. [00:27:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: Maybe my breathing.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I think you're worried about my, what is it? Stress level or being distracted?

CLIENT: I don't care about your being distracted; I worry about the people involved and what it's like to have, to send an emergency and what it's like to have to receive one on a regular basis. [00:28:04] And how that affects you.

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess there's a part of it that has to do with feeling excluded again.

(pause)

[00:29:00]

(pause)

[00:30:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess I have sea of questions, like, "Is it kids?" "Is it parents?" "Is it a patient?"

(pause)

CLIENT: How stressful is your life? [00:31:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: That ocean light (inaudible at 00:31:58) machine is (inaudible at 00:31:59).

(pause)

CLIENT: Well, I guess I worry about things interjecting, but...

(pause)

CLIENT: ...not super much. [00:33:00]

I guess what I do worry is his capacity for self-reflection. I mean, already that feels like it's trespassing into territory that I don't have to be in. Who am I to say that he should have more or less capacity for self-reflection?

(pause)

CLIENT: Maybe it's such an important thing that I've taken up that it feels irresponsible or disrespectful or something for him not to also be taking it up. [00:34:11]

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess I feel like maybe I'm wasting your time, if you have really serious things to deal with. [00:35:09]

(pause)

CLIENT: And that's very sad.

(pause)

[00:36:00]

(pause)

[00:37:00]

(pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess, in a way, that...makes you feel...how bad you described the feeling in your relation to your parents, that you (inaudible at 00:38:04). This isn't exactly what you said, but I think that it's, in one way, similar.

You're not exactly saying that you're a let-down for me, but...that you're not...really want to focus on; didn't quite matter enough for that or qualify for that, as I think you were saying-

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: -you felt in relation to your family. [00:39:00]

(pause)

[00:40:00]

CLIENT: I laugh a lot more when I'm with them and I'm lighter; I'm sort of giddy. And I'm that way at home; not that angry (ph) (inaudible at 00:40:15), not every day. I was like that after our session last week. I was so giddy; I couldn't float down to the ground for hours. It was a lovely feeling. [00:41:00]

I guess it felt good to share the list, or to make the list and share it and have you keep it. And I also felt free by your or by me in a way that doesn't happen that often here but then it did. So that I'm bouncing around and sort of twirling and dancing and getting really close, in Jeremy's face. And giggling at everything. It became apparent to me that...Jeremy wasn't going to bounce around with me for two hours, which is what I felt like I really wanted to do. [00:42:13]

So I went on a run and had a lot of energy. [I felt] (ph) really happy. It came out (inaudible at 00:42:38) that doesn't come around as often as he thinks he does when I'm around my family.

(pause)

[00:43:00]

(pause)

[00:44:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: My parents didn't approve of having boyfriends and girlfriends. [00:45:00] Because I think about the biggest cause of...badness or something, or the biggest, obvious source of badness, that feels really big.

Because I'm pretty sure-I mean, for many children, that wouldn't really have an impact on their-the way that they relate to stern love and my feelings around romantic feelings. But for me, I was ten when I had my first sort of where I'm obsessed with this person, I can't go a waking moment without wanting them in my bones (ph) kind of thing. It was very strong.

So that's a lot of years of not-those feelings being so central to how I related to those people and how I relate to myself; and not really being able to have any part of the family or something.

So I was rebellious. I mean, I just didn't tell them a lot in that category, but it would have been...it would have been better if I could have. [00:47:15] There would have been-maybe there would have been less pain as a result of how strong and isolating and oceanic those feelings felt kind of like how I feel now, except that nobody's really imposing anything on me.

But I was like, "This is my rule for you," but they aren't because of the way they are. I guess that rule that my parents made was also because of the way they are; that it was...yeah. [00:48:08] Parents can make rules when you're young.

(pause)

CLIENT: I had his picture. I got his picture, somehow. And I put it on my bulletin board. I would...say goodnight to him and cry, sometimes, because I missed him so much. [00:49:00] He was the most popular kid in the class and...four years later, I was-did date the most popular kid in the class, and it was so much of a realization of what I had wanted in fourth grade.

But in fourth grade, he made fun of me and called me "werewolf" because of my facial hair. And paid a lot of attention to me; sometimes, positive, but a lot negative. So, really, I was pretty alone with the feeling.

But I noticed that other guys liked me; even before that, a year before that. So boyfriends and love were so much a part of how I noticed people so early that it wasn't something that I could bring home. [00:50:13]

(pause)

CLIENT: They weren't really scary strict about it; they were never scary strict about anything. But it was highly discouraged. It was sort of like, "Why don't you focus on something better?" Or like, "Why don't you do this in moderation? Hang out with this guy in moderation."

And I'm cutting school and trying to, like what I'm trying to do here, like really trying to fuse with the person; be with them all day, every day, all the time. [00:51:07]

I think a lot of other Italian kids grow up in this atmosphere, and I wonder if the ones who didn't date also felt a terrible repression or discouragement; or maybe I was just a hyper lover or something.

(pause)

[00:52:00]

(pause)

[00:53:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: Do you know if there's something about this that does feel illicit?

(pause)

THERAPIST: You know what it is?

CLIENT: Yeah contact. And the way I feel about it. And how little I share, would share with anybody else. [00:54:02] Guess I feel like some of that applies to you, but I don't know if it's for the same reasons.

(pause)

CLIENT: On one hand, it's lovely if you share me with your wife. It's very lovely. I think it would be a very hard life to not be able to share...moving things about your work. [0:55:12] So...yeah, but then on the other hand, it would be lovely if you didn't, too. [Chuckles]

And I'm not sure...I'm not sure if maybe I hope that that's true or maybe I get the sense that it's true, and so that's part of what makes this feel illicit, but it's all-it's just conjecture, it's not...there are other things that are real, that I know about that make it feel illicit...like eye contact and the way I feel about it. [00:56:04]

And like...what I do to you; also, so hard to see clearly, there.

(pause)

[00:57:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: I feel like saying, "Your turn!"

THERAPIST: [Laughs]

CLIENT: [Laughs]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I guess I feel that particular "Your turn!" may be partly about sort of taking the spotlight off-

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: -of you. [00:58:05]

CLIENT: I think it feels like I've said a lot and it's hard and it's...I feel like I would need a break or I want a break; and some of that, I think, comes from the heat of it.

(pause)

CLIENT: Or maybe if I were to talk more, I think I would move to something that felt much less charged or intense, and I think I sensed that and I didn't want that to happen. [00:59:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it feels like...mentioning what you do to me was charged.

CLIENT: Uh huh. Yeah. It's kind of embarrassing, though; and in a way that some of the other stuff isn't, because I don't know what I do to you. And you do...so I do not have a lot of room to explore, there. [01:00:00] I think that's not true.

THERAPIST: [Do we] (ph)?

CLIENT: There's plenty of room to explore, there.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Chuckles] I guess, I mean I'd rather have you just tell me.

(pause)

CLIENT: Well, I think this is hard for you and I think you like the attention. [01:01:00] I can't imagine that you get much...I can't imagine that you get much attention at home. I mean, I can't imagine that any father gets much attention, but maybe also because of the way you are. I don't know what it will be like if we had kids, but there are tons of days...where I'm pissed because Jeremy isn't giving me enough attention. And I'm asking for it. And he never does that. Even if he wants attention, it's so subdued and slinky and ends up not being over very fast to...ends up being a very slow process of getting attention. [01:02:14] So anyway, I imagine that you're probably on that part of the spectrum, as opposed to my part of the spectrum.

THERAPIST: [I have] (ph) that quality with him-I mean, not you, but I'm not sure quite what you mean about.

CLIENT: He doesn't...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 01:02:38) want it, or if he does, it's (crosstalk at 01:02:40).

CLIENT: When he wants it, it...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 01:02:42) and low-key and (crosstalk at 01:02:43).

CLIENT: Yeah. When he wants it, it's not...a strong request with conviction. It's not-

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: -obnoxious.

THERAPIST: [Laughs]

CLIENT: [Laughs] So. [01:03:01] One nice thing about being obnoxious is that you get attention, because the person wants you to stop being obnoxious. I try not to be obnoxious, though, because it's much better if the person-Jeremy comes to me because I'm so irresistibly lovable and fun which happens.

So...how does talking about what I think it does to you or what I do to you?

(pause)

CLIENT: So we have challenge and attention. [01:04:00] And love, I think.

(pause)

CLIENT: I know there's love here.

(pause)

CLIENT: But that feels like the farthest from the list and that feels exactly right. But it's hard to bear; it's hard to locate or it's hard to talk about elsewhere. [01:05:00] A lot of the times, I feel by myself with it.

(pause)

[01:06:00]

(pause)

[01:07:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: Dinner.

(pause)

[01:08:00]

(pause)

[01:09:00]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I think...

(pause)

THERAPIST: I think, in some ways, you are like the you that you are describing being like; and in some ways, you're more like how you're describing Jeremy.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: Around attention. I think you're more like Jeremy when it comes to things like being sad or confused or...lost. [01:10:01] And...you know, whether it's being up in your room as a kid, by yourself, not even having the thought of going and talking to somebody your parents about it.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Or feeling so intensely for these people that you fell in love with, growing up.

CLIENT: What would have been the way to shine a light on that or bring attention to myself? Like talking to my parents, you mean? [01:11:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's one possibility. I mean...

(pause)

THERAPIST: God, I guess, clearly, it sort of doesn't occur to you even now how you could have sought-

CLIENT: It doesn't.

THERAPIST: -attention for that. I imagine there were other things, in relation to which you could tell me 15 different ways you could have got attention from them.

CLIENT: I see. That's interesting. No, I can't really think of anything that would have felt right; that would have felt okay or comfortable.

THERAPIST: I don't know. [01:12:00]

CLIENT: Friends, but I didn't-that part wasn't there quite yet. I was just that young.

(pause)

CLIENT: I actually remember in seventh grade, I had a similar lust over Derek Jeter, (inaudible at 01:12:47). And that was kind of a communal lust; it was so obvious that a few other girls in that grade had it, too; so it didn't feel quite so lonely and bad. [01:13:00]

But I remember the local Chinese place that we still go to near our house, we all sit down, and I asked my parents, "What do you do when you're obsessed with something?" It was the first time I've ever...made any...acknowledged that part of me. And their response was-it seemed to gentle to me. It was like, "Well...you can try to work on sort of-"

So one part of the response was gentle; one was not. The gentle part was, "It'll take its course." [01:14:00] What?

(pause)

THERAPIST: Sorry. Your 13-year-old comes to you and, "Hey, by the way? What do you when you're really obsessed with something?" [Chuckles]

CLIENT: [Laughs]

THERAPIST: [Laughs] You say, "Oh, well, I think this is what you do." "Okay, there you go."

CLIENT: [Laughs]

THERAPIST: [Laughs] Come on. You say, "Yes?" and either, "What is it?" or, "Who is it?"

CLIENT: Oh. No.

THERAPIST: [Laughs]

CLIENT: [Laughs] Thank you very much; don't ask, don't tell.

THERAPIST: Apparently.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it was years and years of, "Don't ask, don't tell," so why were you to say who was it or what was it, then?

(pause)

THERAPIST: It's one thing to discourage your 16-year-old from dating, or your 17-year-old. It's another thing to wonder who your 10-year-old or your 13-year-old has some huge crush on. I mean, it's not like you guys-maybe I'm wrong and at 10 or at 13, we're having heavy dating-

CLIENT: Yeah, I think they were so na�ve-

THERAPIST: I don't mean that's not emotionally-I don't mean that's not emotionally intense. Of course it is. But as parents, discouraging dating is not the same as wanting to know what's going on with your-

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: -kid. Again, it's one thing, sort of discouraging your 16-year-old or 17-year-old who's got a date; or even your 15-year-old. [01:16:06] But your middle schooler or your elementary schooler-

CLIENT: Hmm. I think-

THERAPIST: -it's not like-

CLIENT: -your cut-off should be 13.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Blowjobs came on the scene, then.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Sex came on the scene, then.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But, sure: ten and then-I think they were na�ve. I don't think they knew me; I don't think they knew that side of me. They didn't know how I was calibrated and what exactly I was doing or what I wanted to do. And I think they were also really uncomfortable, themselves. So they didn't want to talk about it.

And this wasn't some big mystery that I'm figuring out, now. It was a well-known part of the house-or not part of the household. [01:17:05]

So their response is like, "Well, it'll take its course. There isn't that much you can do about it." And then, "You can try tell yourself to stop thinking about it."

But it's my brother, who's nine or ten; my grandfather who's not from this culture, pretty conservative; and my parents; and I'm asking about what do you do when you're obsessed with something? They should have said whatever they were going to say and then asked me about it later. (inaudible at 01:17:51). [01:18:00]

My mom didn't date anyone in her whole life. So really, she was quite...this was like a legitimate way of being for her. I'm not sure what she did with her intense feelings about people.

THERAPIST: So you think they knew when you asked about being obsessed, that it was with someone?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. I think-

THERAPIST: As opposed to frogs.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think they knew me better than that.

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk at 01:18:35)

CLIENT: Yeah. Jeremy may be frogs or black flies (ph) comes to mind.

THERAPIST: (Crosstalk at 01:18:46)

CLIENT: No, I think they knew me pretty well pretty early on.

THERAPIST: Okay. So they knew you well enough to know it was-but you...

(pause)

THERAPIST: ...you did just say they didn't really know this side of you. [01:19:05] And (crosstalk at 01:19:06).

CLIENT: I don't think they knew how...how it manifested in my mind, moment to moment. Kind of like when I told my mom-actually, when I called you in December, it was right after talking to her.

And so, in some sense, she knows me well enough to be like, "You should call Jay back. You should keep seeing him. I knew this wasn't going to be an easy transition for you." She knew that. But I don't think she knows or knew the extent-maybe she does and it's totally never going to come to the surface. [01:20:01]

But I've never interacted with her over the level of intensity of my feelings. But I think my actions have been very clear.

So is that still contradictory to you? And then she calls you "Dr. Jay." "You should call Dr. Jay back."

(pause)

[01:21:00]

THERAPIST: It doesn't really hang together very well for me about how they were with you around this (ph). I mean...

(pause)

CLIENT: Can you explain more? What doesn't fit with what? [01:22:00]

(pause)

[01:23:00]

(pause)

CLIENT: Right, so I had about 28 pictures of Derek Jeter in my room. Somehow, no one's door is closed or you-we-this wasn't a house where anyone closed doors; so my parents were in my room a lot. And David Novak's (sp?) fourth-grade picture was on my bulletin board, too. So in some sense, there was a quiet acknowledgment but never...never really anything deeper. [01:24:04]

(pause)

[01:25:00]

(pause)

THERAPIST: I think it's probably in the moment here, between you and me, important to you to feel like you and I are on the same page about this; and see how they were in a similar way or that, yeah, that we see (inaudible at 01:25:47). And I think...

(pause)

[01:26:00]

THERAPIST: ...the prospect that I see how they were with you quite differently than you do; that you and I have pretty different views of it, perhaps. It's frustrating and kind of upsetting.

CLIENT: You're choosing to focus on that?

THERAPIST: You mean, as opposed to the stuff between you and them?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. I think you're totally right and I think I want to know what you think as clearly as possible so that I can incorporate it into my world view. [01:27:10] It's an easier way to do it. And so that I can have it as part of...

(pause)

CLIENT: ...you know, part of what's hard about...spending a lot of time on my parents is that they're alive and I talk to them all the time. And it's pretty hard for me to not spill my beans all day, every day. [01:28:03] In one sense; clearly, we're talking about a sense in which I manage to do that for my whole life.

But this is the sort of thing that is going to come up. And I want to be careful. And I want to be sort of respectful and loving. And I also want it to come up. So I don't want it to come up from-come from this...ill-understood, unclear, confused place. I want a clear message. [01:29:00]

And I think you're exactly right; I think I'm kind of missing the point.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I think you want to-you want to be on the same page with me. And you want to be on the same page with them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You want to hear, clearly, what I think so that you can evaluate it and take the parts of that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You can be clear about it with them so they can be on the same page with them (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah, I think the important thing here is that I'm not really making room or allowing for a discovery discussion with them...in this. [01:30:06]

THERAPIST: I think that's up with me (ph) around some of that-this stuff that we're talking about, too.

CLIENT: Allowing a discovery discussion?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I think it has to do with-okay. I don't know which one comes first, but I think it has to do with wanting to be clear about it with them. So I need to be clear about it here, even though it means not actually allowing for what really is to come up.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think the-more about managing anxiety than about...per se wanting to really know what you think about it. [01:31:03]

CLIENT: I think it's managing anxiety around doing something with it, real quick.

THERAPIST: Which I think is also about managing anxiety about feeling like there's not a disconnect or a gash-

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: -for (ph) this agreement.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's very hard to hold on to it. It's hard to hold on to unresolved...stuff about that (ph).

Okay.

THERAPIST: I'll see you Monday and Tuesday next week. [01:32:01]

CLIENT: Yeah (ph).

[You liked to mean] (ph) on Tuesday with an expectation that I would react to your (ph)...and I didn't think about it.

THERAPIST: [You mean just] (ph) now?

CLIENT: No, I'm fine (ph). On Tuesday.

THERAPIST: Oh. Okay.

CLIENT: Bye. [Chuckles]

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