TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: There's (inaudible at 00:00:05) airport just past security that's this recombobulation area.

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: And they have a bunch of really comfortable benches to sit on (inaudible at 00:00:15).

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Good morning.

CLIENT: Good morning. (PAUSE) The last two days I've stayed at work long past when I should have gone home and also late enough to miss evening commitments that I had made. Tuesday I was supposed to go to a student alumni networking event that helps for students of color. I skipped to stay at work to try and get shit done. And yesterday I missed choir practice. I was at work until nine. [00:01:03]

That's not really healthy but I felt like since I was actually being focused and making progress, it would be a shame to leave and interrupt that because (inaudible at 00:01:15) the next day is going to be focused and productive or another day of fighting myself. It's also... Like the way my work day is broken up, like most days I can't manage to get into work before about ten o'clock. And then the cafeteria is only open from twelve to one so if I don't take my lunch break then, I have to drive somewhere to get lunch. Which is kind of a pain and also most days I have meetings scheduled from like one to two or two to three so it's harder to take a late lunch. So I have two hours in the morning and then a lunch break which then, you know, breaks my stride and then...

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: ...trying to get back into work and then having a meeting and then trying to get back focused on the thing I'm trying to do.[00:02:05]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't actually like get into a groove and...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...really start focusing until about four.

THERAPIST: And then you're taking off at...

CLIENT: Yeah 6:30.

THERAPIST: Five or six.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, that's not much time. And I know various productivity experts say that, you know, you shouldn't work for more than ninety minutes at a stretch and you should take breaks every ninety minutes but I've found that for me, you know, the best block of time is about three and a half to four hours of just like intense focused work and then taking a longer break.

THERAPIST: Yeah my... Necessarily what I've seen is that there's a lot of variations to what works for people...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:02:57)

CLIENT: Yeah. So I mean, the obvious solution to this is just, you know, get up earlier, get to work, you know, 8:30 and then have a nice big chunk of time before lunch and meetings and all that started. [00:03:07]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But that requires me to, you know, wake up early which is hard under the best of circumstances.

THERAPIST: Sure because you're having trouble sleeping. Yeah.

CLIENT: And when I'm dreading going to work and having trouble sleeping, waking up at seven just... It's not going to happen. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Although I managed to wake up at seven to get here on time. So...

(PAUSE) [00:03:55]

THERAPIST: Well, that's good.

CLIENT: Which means I can't wake up at seven if, you know, I'm sufficiently motivated. So why am I not motivated to get up for work?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well...

(PAUSE) [00:05:00]

THERAPIST: Well, I guess in a way that's the big question.

(PAUSE) [00:06:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, what's coming to mind?

CLIENT: Not a whole lot.

(PAUSE) [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: Is there something that you're feeling?

CLIENT: Frustrated.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: (SIGH)

THERAPIST: It's not like I can't imagine...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...from what you've been talking about.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But I'm just not sure what particular thing.

CLIENT: I don't know. Frustrated that I can't think of anything useful to say, frustrated that I can't get moving in the morning, frustrated at a whole lot of stuff. (PAUSE) So one thing that I'm kind of embarrassed to admit and I know is probably, you know, one of the things I should just get over because it's not fair of me is that Dave will often, you know, sleep in later than I do. [00:08:07]

And, you know, he has a fifteen minute walking commute to work. He doesn't have to leave an hour before he needs to be at work. And his hours are much more flexible than mine. So, you know, he can sleep until 9:30 but it's a little... It'd be nice if our schedules were synced like if he were willing to just get to work early and then he could leave work at like four and like have the whole afternoon free. But he doesn't and it's not really reasonable for me to require that he does but it's hard to get out of bed when he's still sleeping.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Do you feel resentful of him or is it like you just want to stay there with him or...

CLIENT: A little bit of both. [00:09:07]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: And he also doesn't need nearly as much time to get going in the morning as I do. Like I need at least an hour between waking up and walking out the door and he needs, you know, fifteen minutes. So he can wake up at 9:30 and be at work at ten and I can't.

THERAPIST: Right. (PAUSE) What is it that you need the hour for?

CLIENT: I usually spend at least ten or fifteen minutes lying in bed, staring at the ceiling talking myself into getting out of bed, shower, brushing teeth, drying my hair takes some time. [00:10:00]

And then I usually want to check e-mail, Facebook, Twitter. And I've been trying to spend, you know, practicing piano in the morning because it's much easier if I focus in the morning that when I get home from work and I'm, you know, frustrated and tired and full of self loathing. So...

THERAPIST: I was smiling because I just thought maybe you should switch to drums. That might solve the problem of getting Dave out of bed in the morning. (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Sorry.

CLIENT: No. And then this morning Dave berated me when I came out of the shower.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Because I've had this horrible head cold for like the last three weeks. And I'm really stuffy and congested and at night all of that congestion drips down into my throat, this post nasal drip so when I wake up, like my throat is just full of grossness. [00:10:57]

And that triggers my gag reflex which then triggers vomiting and it's just really horrible and gross and disgusting. And so it's... And it's kind of noisy. And he berated me for being noisy and told me, you know, "Why don't you just swallow it instead of coughing it up?" Well, it triggers my gag reflex. Once that happens, I kind of have no control. That was all, you know, autonomic nervous system function from that point onward.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And that was really frustrating.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: He was like, "You woke me up!" I was like, "You went to bed at the same time I did. There's no reason for you not to wake up right now." (SIGH) But yeah. It's really... I can't demand that he leave for work at the same time I do. That's not fair.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I've already told him, you know, this is something I would like and would he please do it and he said no. And, you know, that's kind of the end of the story. [00:12:01]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well, you're feeling really quite horrible, I think. I mean (PAUSE) there's a lot of depression sort of pretty intense in what you're describing, taking fifteen minutes to get out of bed. Like...

CLIENT: And I've trained myself out of using the snooze button for that because that does drive Dave crazy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But... [00:12:59]

THERAPIST: I think you're sort of dreading work (PAUSE) and the frustration I think with your commute which one would not at all (inaudible at 00:13:21)...

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: ...doesn't help. I mean, like, yeah, it sounds like some of it's solidarity. Some it's resentment and affection as far as Dave not getting out of bed that's difficult.

(PAUSE) [00:14:00]

THERAPIST: I guess the point in my mentioning it is, you know, I think you usually dismiss how bad you're feeling or the number of things about which you're feeling bad.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Which is dismissive of yourself and is really frustrating because then you kind of don't know what you're up against.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And so you seem completely irrational and, to yourself and people with whom you're interacting when in fact like, you're really up against quite a lot. [00:15:03]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I kind of want to argue with that but that would just be proving your point wouldn't it?

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) Well go ahead. I mean, maybe.

CLIENT: I mean... (PAUSE) It doesn't really matter how I'm feeling in some sense because I still have to go to work. Right? I have to show up for my job so I can pay my bills. You know as part of the bottom line.

(PAUSE) [00:16:00]

CLIENT: I actually said something similar to that to a coworker yesterday and he just kind of looked at me and looked very baffled. But I had, I had checked in some code that broke the build and kind of screwed things up for like four other people and someone called me out in the middle of a group meeting in front of the whole team of like fifteen people. And I kind of got, you know, not yelled at but, you know, publicly reprimanded.

THERAPIST: Ouch.

CLIENT: Yeah, it kind of sucked. But on the other hand, I did break the build and that's, you know... (LAUGHTER) It actually was a mistake on my part but... My mentor came into my office yesterday morning to... He said, "You know, I just wanted to say, you know, that that fumble you made with the code like I reviewed that code. I didn't see that it would break anything. You know, yeah we should have tested it but, you know, anyone could have made that mistake. Everyone has made that mistake before."

THERAPIST: Oh good. [00:17:03]

CLIENT: "So I just wanted to make sure you weren't feeling too bad because it was kind of a kick in the pants."

THERAPIST: That's terrific.

CLIENT: And I said, "You know, you know, I appreciate the gesture but how I feel doesn't really matter. What matters is that I not break the build again." And he just kind of gave me this look that I wasn't sure how to interpret.

THERAPIST: It sounds very self critical and dismissive when you say that kind of thing about yourself.

CLIENT: But it's true, right? Like how I feel doesn't matter. Like the build is still broken.

THERAPIST: What's the advantage of looking at it that way? I mean, you could say, "Well, it's true," and I'll... I won't argue with that. But is there another reason that you think there's an advantage to looking at it like that? [00:18:01]

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: I don't want to make excuses for my mistakes.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well... (PAUSE) I think you're being unrealistic.

(PAUSE) [00:19:00]

THERAPIST: In a couple of ways. First (PAUSE) there are mistakes and there are things that just go wrong. I mean I gather, you know, your boss was talking to you partly but mostly to be nice but I can also imagine a practical consideration which is, like don't spend too much time trying to figure out how you could have avoided something like that because you can't. You know, it's like, it's like getting a cold. Sure there are some kinds... You can wash your hands. You can, I don't know, be careful about touching certain doorknobs. You can get a flu shot. You can pay attention to someone close around you is sick, you know, stuff like that. But, you know, it kind of gets to a point where you could spend so much time like doing everything you could to prevent getting a cold that it would probably get pretty counterproductive. [00:20:21]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And I gather he was saying this is kind of like that.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: I mean, in other words, I don't know how much he had a practice intent in telling you and how much he was just trying to be supportive but I think there is practical aspect of it. Which is like (PAUSE) things will go wrong that you didn't have much control over.

(PAUSE) [00:21:01]

THERAPIST: I mean, I have another point or two to make but...

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: ...that seems to strike you like... I guess I'm assuming you really didn't, you don't disagree with me but you don't like that idea that there can be mistakes that happen that you wouldn't have any control over. I imagine that feels like very dangerous.

CLIENT: It does.

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: If I'm... I'm desperately afraid that if I accept that then I'll start down the slippery slope of claiming that all mistakes are things that I had no control over and deflecting blame and ducking responsibility and that's not what I want.

(PAUSE) [00:22:07]

CLIENT: You know, my parents do that.

THERAPIST: Yeah?

CLIENT: My horrible abusive ex did that. You know, every thing is someone else's fault, not mine. You know, every time Dad had to leave a job. "Oh. It's, you know..."

THERAPIST: Right. It's amazing how (inaudible at 00:22:35)

CLIENT: ...it's Dr. Lazy's (ph) fault, it's the Colonel's fault, it's, you know, Dr. Hogan's fault.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: They drove me out." And it's like, "Well..." (SIGH)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Or, you know, my mom, "I was, you know, really tired and depressed and that's why I forgot to pick you up from the science fair." Well, you know, I was twelve and alone in this building with a bunch of strangers after everyone else had left for four hours and you're going to say you didn't pick your kid up because you were depressed? What the fuck? Like, you pick your kid up regardless of how you feel. (SIGH)

(PAUSE) [00:23:05]

CLIENT: Like I don't, I don't want to end up like that. I don't want to try to blame anyone and everyone else for things that are actually my fault.

THERAPIST: Well that makes all the sense in the world. I mean, I guess you must really not trust yourself to make those kinds of judgments accurately.

CLIENT: No I don't.

(PAUSE) [00:23:57]

THERAPIST: Like there's in a sense no difference from, "Well, I was on my way to pick you up, got blindsided by somebody who went through a red light, called the school administration, told them to tell you I was on my way, called my friend to come pick you up, and that's why I had to meet you at home instead of at school," and, "Yeah, I was just kind of depressed and fell asleep and forgot to get you." I guess they feel kind of the same.

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Phil my horrible ex was a master at this. You know, he was still... (PAUSE) [00:25:01]

He failed a class that he needed to graduate because he found out that his ex girlfriend from middle school had become a substitute teacher and was substitute teaching in his kid sister's high school class. And that made him so angry and upset that he couldn't do any of his work for this class for an entire fucking semester. Like seriously? Really?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Just... (SIGH) (PAUSE) After I broke up with him for the third time, he stopped going to church and blamed me for it because, you know, if a Christian could be as horrible as I was what's the point of having anything to do with the entire religion? Just the... [00:26:01]

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Those are terrible examples.

CLIENT: Yep. (PAUSE) My dad left a job that he had only been in for a week because the IT staff showed him disrespect by not having his computer set up on the day he started working. But he wanted to start working on July 4th. He wanted to cover the holiday shift. You know? [00:27:13]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess so he could have a day off later? But...

THERAPIST: And the week all the new trainees were starting probably.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like what the hell IT guy is going to work late the night before July 4th...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...to get a computer set up for the new guy? My goodness.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: It's just... (PAUSE) I don't know. Maybe that's not an example of Dad deflecting blame but just, you know...

THERAPIST: I think it is.

CLIENT: ...Dad being a prideful asshole. (SIGH)

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I don't know. It seems like a good example to me in that...

CLIENT: Both. (LAUGHTER) [00:28:07]

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) (inaudible at 00:28:15) so completely crazy.

CLIENT: Yeah and the lengths my sisters and my mom and I had to go to to make sure Dad's feelings never got hurt. Like, oh no, don't hurt Dad's feelings, like the world will end literally if you hurt his feelings. Like I don't want to be that. Like my feelings shouldn't matter that much that everyone around me is terrified of upsetting them.

(PAUSE) [00:29:00]

THERAPIST: It's good you don't want to be that. I'm pretty sure there's some middle ground (inaudible at 00:29:21)

(PAUSE) [00:30:00]

I can imagine how... I can't imagine how constraining it must have been and how constraining it must have been and how (inaudible) had to contort yourselves to keep from hurting his feelings literally all the time. (PAUSE) And I guess I also wonder if that's another way of looking at why it can be so hard for you to take up any space with how you feel now (inaudible). Am I making sense?

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:31:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah in that sense imagine I guess it felt like (inaudible) how you were feeling could really only cause trouble.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And sometimes terrible trouble. (PAUSE) That's a huge problem. That's incredibly unfair to you.

(PAUSE) [00:32:00]

THERAPIST: And in a way like (PAUSE) you and your dad both in very different ways...

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: ...very different ways...

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: ...are a very good example of how like of course the feelings matter. I mean, for you like that's what you're having to manage and fight against all the time to do work.

(PAUSE) [00:33:00]

CLIENT: Much as I would like to not matter, I'm not very good at it. (PAUSE) Like as much as I try not to, I still, you know, end up having meltdowns or, you know, emotional outbursts that, you know, make Dave very uncomfortable to have to witness. So, you know, I am forcing him to deal with my feelings in these horrible, uncontrolled, explosive ways.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I guess first of all it's still dramatically different. You know, there's a lot I'm sure I don't know about them, the meltdowns and how it occurs. I mean, we've talked a little...

CLIENT: Yep. [00:34:03]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) it's still entirely different from what you went through growing up. I mean, for one thing, you feel bad about it...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...and you recognize it maybe not in the moment but after the fact that it mostly do to with you.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: I mean, depending on what happened but you know what I mean.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Dave is not a little kid.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Dave chose to be with you. He (inaudible at 00:34:41) make it very different. I understand that you feel bad.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And it makes you feel like your dad probably.

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I guess I'm trying to be reassuring.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: You're welcome. But I wouldn't if I didn't think all that was true. [00:25:03]

CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) The other big difference is they're mostly directed at me. I'm not, you know, calling Dave names or...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...talking about him. Which, you know... (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I see what you mean.

CLIENT: ...still makes it unpleasant for but yeah.

THERAPIST: But it's a totally different ballgame.

CLIENT: Yep.

(PAUSE) [00:36:00]

(PAUSE) [00:37:00]

My senior year of high school, I got acceptance letters, early admission or early or early action or whatever it was called to all of the state schools I applied to. A few weeks later I got a phone call from Caltech saying that they had admitted me and that was the first admission I got from a school I actually wanted to go to. And I just, I was... My affect was completely flat on the phone. I was just like, "Thank you very much for letting me know. I appreciate it." And the admissions counselor who called me was you know, very confused. She was like, "Aren't you excited? Did your parents make you apply to Caltech? Like this isn't..."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I just kind of stumbled. I don't ever remember what I said in response to that. But it... (LAUGHTER) The message was very clear that my reaction was not at all what was expected or socially acceptable but... I don't know. I was definitely excited. I was thrilled...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I bet. [00:38:05]

CLIENT: ...that I got into my dream school. But... I don't know. I didn't... I don't think I knew how to express that.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Yeah, maybe you were really anxious about and kind of inhibited when it came to having your how you felt be like front and center.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Even if it was something good. Even if it was something, you know, the other person would have expected to hear.

CLIENT: Right.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: But you were just so used to having those squelched up.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: It's funny. I guess it's similar to with your boss in that (PAUSE) he would have imagined you to feel good about what he said.

CLIENT: Mm hmm.

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: I don't know if this is true for you but for some people also like positive feelings can be the most difficult or dangerous.

CLIENT: How so?

(PAUSE)

THERAPIST: Well somebody can really put you down. You're already sad or angry (PAUSE) or scared and that could be bad but... [00:40:05]

CLIENT: Can't get much worse. Is that what you're saying?

THERAPIST: Sort of, yeah, like... It's not like the rug's going to be pulled out in quite the same way if you're happy.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don't know if that's...

(PAUSE)

CLIENT: Yep.

(PAUSE) [00:41:00]

THERAPIST: Caltech was your dream school?

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: Then why didn't you go there?

CLIENT: Yep. My parents were adamantly opposed to my going to Cal Tech.

THERAPIST: How come?

CLIENT: They thought that I only wanted to go because the boy I had had a crush on two years earlier had gone to Cal Tech.

THERAPIST: Oh. Why did you like Caltech better than other schools?

CLIENT: It was smaller. The community seemed much more intimate. It was in California which is warm. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Wait. What? (LAUGHTER) Yeah.

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

THERAPIST: Were you quite upset about it?

CLIENT: Very. I wasn't expecting to get admitted but they did and my parents wouldn't let me go.

THERAPIST: Were you... Did you know in advance that they wouldn't let you go?

CLIENT: I don't think they expected me to get in either. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: I see. So they didn't freak out.

CLIENT: So, you know, they only grudgingly let me apply and figured, you know, if I got in, it's the best fucking school in the country. I'm sure I can talk them into it. But no. Especially once I got acceptance letters from MIT and a full ride scholarship to Emery. They were like, "You know? What the hell is wrong with you? MIT is more famous than Caltech." Which I guess is true if you're not an engineer.

THERAPIST: Which is what you care about knowing (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yes. Well... [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: Had you ever wanted anything as much and gotten it as getting there?

CLIENT: Nope. (PAUSE) I'm glad I went to my school.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm.

CLIENT: I had some wonderful experiences there...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...made some amazing friends, met Dave there...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, you can't... At this point, I can't even imagine how my life would be different...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...if I had gone to Cal Tech instead.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Well, water under the bridge at this point. They pressured me really hard to take a scholarship and go to Emery because I got no scholarship money from MIT. MIT doesn't give merit for obvious reasons. (LAUGHTER) [00:44:05]

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We should stop for now.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: See you on Monday.

CLIENT: Yep.

END TRANSCRIPT