TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Let me write it down before I forget.

CLIENT: [inaudible at 00:00:10].

THERAPIST: Oh thank you.

[Pause]

CLIENT: Hi. Why are you finding another time on Monday?

THERAPIST: Two reasons. One is because I imagined you’d prefer it and I had it and the other is because I knew somebody else who would prefer the morning time. [00:01:06]

CLIENT: Oh, that’s nice. So you still got the ad hoc thing?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Okay. Should I pay [inaudible at 00:01:23] the thing off?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Of that?

THERAPIST: Right. I am happy to offer you other times than the Monday morning time if I have them.

CLIENT: Okay. I think it’s probably going to pass but some of the reasons won’t pass so it’s just good to know when you have time. Yes. That is so great because Kurt, I think, is coming back on Monday and I’ve been getting in well before 9:00, before 8:30, which is huge for me. Chad’s been gone for six weeks; I think he’s getting back Monday. So if I can be there around when he arrives, he gets in really early, that would make me feel really good. [00:02:33]

It’s a silly thing. I feel like maybe he won’t come back up. I’ll just be in early Monday morning doing cocktails. [Pause] On Monday I was really cranky about leaving. I was going to meet Jeremy at the [] (ph) [00:04:53].

We’ve discovered painting; it’s really cool. We have all this original art from other people, six pieces, but don’t really, you can’t really put them up without breaking them. I’m in debt now. And [inaudible at 00:05:29] to find that painting it was a creative process in itself and it’s totally wide open. You can pick, you can add or take away from the piece by making different decisions about the painting. [00:05:56]

THERAPIST: So you’re including matting and framing?

CLIENT: Yes, yes, yes. Do you want to [inaudible at 00:06:04] on your wave mat? Do you want a double mat? Do you want a triple mat? Do you want the mat to be far away? How far away from the main part of the piece? Do you want the mat to be [inaudible at 00:06:19] to the mat? Do you want to show what color the texture, what color frame? [00:06:35]

THERAPIST: Very exciting.

CLIENT: It was very exciting. We had framed most of the stuff in December but yet we had two things to pick up. And now we cannot afford to frame anything for a very long time. But that’s okay because we have them in our [wall space.] (ph) [00:07:19]

[Pause]

And yet they started to pay attention to the three [inaudible at 00:07:54] pieces that cannot inspire. The framing guy and Jeremy they won’t pay attention to the [inaudible at 00:08:05]. [Pause] But this story is not as happy. I was really cranky and I started to have more space for other stuff, other I mean and I say that because I think this is, there’s nothing new happening with me and then or my work, both things are occupying a lot more space and they have for maybe and I think there is nothing different from it. [00:09:12]

If I complain she’ll stay around and Jay is too scared. What does that look like? It looks like Allison (ph) having no capacity for any frustrations, self-frustrations and what I fear is passivity. But there was a lot of it. It started, sort of cleared up when he didn’t finish this track in time for something, a record when he expected his friend wouldn’t, just wouldn’t run. [00:10:19]

But it’s everywhere in our in daily life. I mean I don’t know [pause] so Friday we’re saying never mind. It’s family right so let’s leave at 3:30. Many times both of us would say let’s have sex at 3:15 and then we’d meet them a lot later. Or I want to take a nap or I want to I’m busy or Jeremy won’t have prepared at all and it would take a long time. So that’s usually what the leaving looks like. [00:11:10]

But this time I felt very, very, I was yearning to go. Really, really yearning to just go at 3:30 and I was ready. And Jeremy asked me at 2:00 I’m making pasta sauce do you want any? I said I don’t know. And I get home at 2:30 and I wanted to go to this meditation thing for the rest of the day. But I don’t really have time for that so I’m just going to be by myself in quietness for a half hour in my room. And I wasn’t paying attention to [inaudible at 00:12:07].

So I come out of me time and Jeremy is, he might as well have been inspecting the folds on the Parmesan because he is just in no hurry to do anything except really, really perfect what he’s doing. So at 3:20 we tossed everything and he eats it. Jeremy is one, Jeremy can’t handle the task of packing. It’s very hard for him. I don’t know how much you have a sense of when I first started dating Jeremy there was, Jeremy said I have some features of ADHD. I mean he has had tons of testing. [00:13:20]

THERAPIST: Yes, a pro [inaudible at 00:13:25] problem is?

CLIENT: Yes. And with that comes an IQ thing?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yes, so Jeremy is in the genius IQ range and can’t pack and can’t go to the store; it’s like a museum for him. And there’s all these things and I think they’re pretty typical but I don’t really know what the label means. I’ve read, when he started to get in a really bad place in college, Gwen his academic coach, handed me these books and said read these. And it’s something that guy who writes a bunch about the ADHD way. [00:14:18]

THERAPIST: [] you mean?

CLIENT: Yes. So he has some of these books and at that time it really helped me.

THERAPIST: Are you asking me how much I have a feel for what that sort of thing could be like?

CLIENT: Yes, yes. I imagine you had some -

THERAPIST: A lot actually.

CLIENT: Yes?

THERAPIST: Yes. I used to, the first five or so years as soon as I was in private practice, I did maybe a quarter or so of my time working with students who had, from elementary school through regular (ph) school who had various abilities in ADHD and that kind of thing. And most had at five I believe but there’s also a group at Yale that provides screening and sort of running support for students coming to graduate schools. So between that and just doing therapy in this neighborhood yes, I’ve seen a lot of very smart people who have ADHD. [00:15:37]

CLIENT: And steady rag (ph)?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I’m sure you had some angle on it.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So I guess you have a sense of what the day to day I don’t know what. There’s stuff that interferes with functioning, stuff that maybe those patients complain a lot about. And then there’s just what their life is like. And there’s a lot of stuff about Jeremy that doesn’t interfere with his important tasks anymore, they used to. But there’s a lot of stuff about him that’s just sort of is what it is, like part of him. We don’t have labels for it but [00:16:55]

Anyway it’s hard to label it but it’s also hard to ignore the fact that many features actually do grew into sort of [inaudible at 00:17:09] chemically. Even though sometimes they seem like unrelated or [00:17:14]

THERAPIST: Yes, that’s the way it’s sort of integrated with somebody’s personality. There’s sort of stuff that looks more like symptoms and stuff that looks more like, because they are but it also looks kind of related.

CLIENT: Yes. And so much of the symptomology has shaped how he feels about himself and who he is, a good part of just [inaudible at 00:17:42]. So I don’t think I’m a very good partner for him for those aspects of him. I don’t think I’ve ever been. And then I think last week cleared for both of us and it causes a lot of rub (ph). [00:18:09]

THERAPIST: So the dinner side of it I don’t think I’ve ever seen somebody who had ADHD or I guess a disability who wasn’t actually profoundly psychologically affected by it in terms of their personality and kind of emotional function. I would necessarily I expected that but 100% of the time -

CLIENT: I would expect it and then what I won’t tell you about and everything I know about that. Yes, so there’s just low-grade frustration. It’s always there and it clears up. Like on times like Friday where I’m thinking get the fuck out the door. And I’ve been crying a lot and there’s just all this angst and this is very [inaudible at 00:19:16] turbulent time, but I’m crying the whole way up to Maine. I don’t remember now about what, oh that we were really late, that we were going to miss dinner, we only have three dinners in Maine and [inaudible at 00:19:34].

But we managed to recover very well. But Maine was Maine. It’s so lovely. And Jeremy’s parents really get him. I don’t think Jeremy’s mom is a good partner for Jeremy. Classic (ph) Jeremy, Jeremy [eat here] (ph) and her anxiety has interfered a great deal because like most mothers it does with their children. But she was Interventionist Mom for a long time. It’s really scary. It’s really hard. I probably I feel like I’m so eloquent to read to kids like Jeremy after so many years of knowing him. I don’t think I’ve ever had a single edge about, or more than Abby did just because I intellectually know things about Jeremy doesn’t mean I’m saying fine I’m not frustrated and really, really anxious about some of the stuff. [00:20:55]

Anyway, she has backed off and basically he was close many times over the night. One of the times she got up and disentangled herself financially and made him pay last semester and that really helped her to say oh I’m not involved sort of like [inaudible at 00:21:23]. Their relationship has gotten a lot better; it used to be very bad. [00:21:28]

So anyways so his parents have really got him in it. I’ve noticed over the course of the whole weekend. And it is so much easier to be around them with Jeremy because it’s this huge support, sense of support I didn’t get. I cried a lot when we were leaving; I was very, very upset to leave. And I do not just go and want to go back to Jeremy and our apartment; I didn’t want to go back to our apartment. I couldn’t, because this tunnel vision that comes up a lot here in other contexts where I forget all the good parts or forget even how to know about a good part. [00:22:21]

I was very upset when we left. It occurred to me in the car that one of the things that was very scary to me was leaving this we-know-Jeremy-well support team. It never occurred to me before but they were fans [inaudible at 00:22:44]. [Pause] Yes, so this low-grade thing sort of got really bad on Monday after I got back after I left here. And Jeremy was saying he was going to get, he said what are you going to do when you get home? I said oh we’re going to take [inaudible at 00:23:35]. I said go grocery shopping, I might get cheese because I really wanted more cheese on the pasta, and I said I want more pasta. [00:23:45]

Somehow I fixated on the cheese on the way back from the frame store and he said okay. And I was going to get right to work when I got home. I said what are you going to do and he said I don’t know. I said are you’re going to get cheese? And he said I don’t know; I might. I started yes you’re full of mights aren’t you? Your whole life is mights. And then Jeremy gets more and more and more and more retreat, retreat and this is habit and so it must be very, I mean I know it’s very painful. [00:24:34]

He said, Allison (ph) I never said, I never committed to getting cheese. I said I don’t get it. Why don’t you just get cheese? It’s like taking a shower. He said you can’t take a shower; you got to get in the shower. And there’s this ongoing dance, I’m going to take a shower now; it’s not happening in Maine. And that was the sort of thing. And I had been talking about it all just on the car ride I think. Oh that’s really nice because your parents really get you. It’s so nice having someone else around for something like the shower, which really bugs me when it happens in Cambridge but in Maine I just, they didn’t care. They all knew, we all know you might take a shower; you might not. So that’s cut-like modeling for you next week. [00:25:39]

THERAPIST: [inaudible at 00:25:40] transitions?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: That are hard right now?

CLIENT: That’s a complicated question.

THERAPIST: Okay, we’ll table it.

CLIENT: Why did you ask it just now? What are you referring to?

THERAPIST: Taking a shower, getting out of the house to go to Maine, getting home and figuring out what to do with himself. [00:26:06]

CLIENT: Yes. In that sense, yes. The answer is yes. Going to sleep, very similar. Waking up has been incredibly hard though he’s much better at it than I am. So we get home and I feel very upset. I said Jeremy I don’t know why this is upsetting you. This is so disproportional to what we’re talking about. It’s really dumb and it’s really upsetting me. I’m very, very frustrated. And I started yelling out if you don’t get the cheese you’re going to fail out of college.

Silence. He goes somewhere; I do something like 15 or 20 minutes of yoga and not hearing anything. Go in the bedroom, all the lights are out and Jeremy is crying. I’ve seen Jeremy cry twice in nine years. And I also have this undercurrent of Jeremy’s got to face the pain, Jeremy’s got to face the pain, what is all this bullshit avoiding? Where are the tears, where’s the crisis, where’s the upheaval? So the crying was not really that it was premixed for me. It was very upsetting that I said what I said about the cheese being like failing college. [00:27:46]

So I cried a lot and joined him and we cried together. And Jeremy was giving birth to something that was extremely laborious. It wasn’t this free-flowing release at all. It was an hour of every few minutes there’d be a new cry. Clearly some stuff was just being really slowly stirred in a really painful way. [00:28:22]

So I immediately, after a few minutes, immediately acknowledged that was so painful, that was so hurtful what I said to you. And I don’t know where it’s coming from. There’s something really, really raging in me right now and maybe actually it’s time for me to just take an Ativan and go on with my day and sort of not be so whatever. I haven’t taken an Ativan in a year. So that was sort of my something bad is going on with me. I’m considering using this other tool that I haven’t used in forever. I’m very, very sorry that it came out that way. [00:29:23]

Through the course of the hour Jeremy shared that I triggered a lot of bad stuff for him but that I was just a trigger and that he feels very, very bad about himself. And he has for a very long time. And there’s was intermittent I had started sobbing with him. It was very painful to hear Jeremy say those words. He’s never said them before so I know about them that he said [inaudible at 00:30:27].

We talked about whether it was feeling really external when people judge him and is that good enough for other people and whether it’s internal. It’s always been internal which I also know. He said that something that doesn’t come to the surface much. He said seeing his parents makes him feel really, really bad sometimes because he really wants them to see him happy and successful and fulfilled and they’re getting old and they’re going to die soon. This is what he’s saying in the crying. They’re getting old and they’re going to die and I’m not going to be [inaudible at 00:31:22] sad.

[Pause]

I asked him if he thought that he could ever be free from his pain. He said yes. [inaudible at 00:32:08]. I had to restrain a whole bunch of stuff in myself, sort of just bringing my [inaudible at 00:32:20]. It’s all forward which doesn’t happen in everything. It was also really wiggly. My feet were cold, I was crying and I was done crying, and I said okay, sat up, laid back down, and Jeremy was looking at me crying this whole time. It’s hard to sit with someone. It was hard for me to sit with him for the hour because I wanted what was happening to happen but it was very painful to me and was making me cry. [00:33:08]

And I had a lot to say but I wasn’t saying it and it’s gone. It wasn’t the sort of thing where I need to say it; just you need to observe it. I felt like I needed to observe it just so it would pass. I also asked him what of this if anything is at the surface. He said that he rarely feels, he’s never, he rarely feels at all a swell like it was that night.

THERAPIST: Was he really, was it all swelled like it is -

CLIENT: Yes. But it’s at the surface pretty much always, not the parent thing. But that I feel I’m quite happy with myself. That’s the first time we’ve cried together. My thoughts are very, very tight hugging and holding. There was also a lot of not just me sitting there and him lying there. [00:34:48]

[Pause]

So he sort of softened a little since, on Monday, and since Monday I haven’t noticed him going back to the sort of avoidance slash [very ending] (ph). I also said right away Jeremy it sounds like you’re in a lot of pain. So that part I can tell that he’s in pain many days but he has such solidified habits around it. It’s a very interesting contrast. I have no habits around my pain. I mean maybe pain that’s on the surface. I think I have very solidified habits around keeping it below the surface, yes. [00:36:36]

THERAPIST: So I think I’m getting the Jayified version of what happened, which is not a bad version. But I think it’s the version where you as I think it feels like I do give a lot of space for what happened and what your reactions were and stuff. And the part of what I imagine about that is that it feels I think in part, I think it feels somewhat reassuring but I think it also feels in part how you have to be to stay connected to me in telling this story. [00:37:42]

I think you, maybe not when you step back and think about it, but as you’re telling it you don’t because I seem like that I’m not really going to get it about how frustrated you were, how sort of conflicted around being sort of really sad or distraught over how upset he was and yet also pissed off at him and frustrated at him. And that this sort of anticipation that I either won’t quite get it or I will seem kind of calm and indifferent even if you are worked up, that we won’t really connect around it is part of sort of what goes into creating the Jay version of it. [00:38:49]

CLIENT: Yes, well there’s no other version because I haven’t told anyone or really reflected much on it so this is, yes this is how it’s coming onto you. I guess I’m struggling to see what the alternative, what an alternative version might sound like. [00:39:11]

THERAPIST: Well here’s an example of something that stood out to me in the version you told. You described sort of a number of times how he was crying and how you were crying and how sometimes you were holding him and other times you were sitting there. And there was the kind of, there was the implication you were feeling a lot of things.

But you didn’t say much about what those were, not that it’s that hard to figure some of them out, but you weren’t, clearly were not in them as you told it, I think. You may be sad and I guess my point isn’t really that well geez you should be and it should be dramatic when you tell it. But more that I think there’s a reason you keep from being in it which is it feels threatening because that’s how I’m going to seem and so I’m going to be separate to removed. I’m sorry about [inaudible at 00:40:42] bathroom [inaudible].

[Pause]

CLIENT: I think it’s hard to be in it because I’m more concerned with connecting with you than connecting with what happened. But I also had these two really intense dreams that I want to get to because I’m a little not resting in each I don’t know. It’s a story so it has an ending and then I don’t have anything else to say about it. So there’s something about that but there’s an arc that makes me feel like impatient (ph) of connecting with anyone [by it] (ph) as I’m telling it to you. [00:44:08]

THERAPIST: Like how? So you get through the story?

CLIENT: Yes. I don’t really like telling stories period. So I’ve been trying to tell it and then put on a bunch of time without any story; pretty drivy.

THERAPIST: But it’s not just drivy I think in that you want to tell me the story I imagine so that we can connect about what happened, which really matters to you.

CLIENT: Yes, I guess -

THERAPIST: I think I see what you mean by it being drivy. Story, [grumbles.] [00:45:10]

CLIENT: Yes, yes, like I’m going to do this so that, and this so that, versus so that, which there isn’t much of. I guess it just occurred to me that maybe another way of being here like maybe another type of patient would use this and you as a way to connect with what happened. And I sort of feel like yes, yes, I connected with what happened plenty when it happened. And I want to connect with you because I only get to see you when I need to see you. And it’s sort of exciting to have something very important to me to tell you but only because, well primarily it’s because it’s something that I have to tell you and we can connect over it. [00:46:19]

Yes, because it’s really hard and I go through a lot of help with it but I don’t think there’s anything that needs to be helped today. What feels missing to me is connecting with you, not yes. Or it doesn’t feel like it’s missing but that’s what fuels it, like the point of being here for me today. And there’s the other stuff but really it doesn’t, it kind of doesn’t know at that level. [00:47:23]

THERAPIST: Like what matters to you is sharing what happened with me? Not your own relationship with what happened? Not saying it matters at all but just not as much as [focused on] (ph).

CLIENT: Yes I mean I think the sharing takes up so much room that I don’t have any yes, maybe in two minutes I want my relationship to make more matter. Somehow it’s feeling very laborious to pass easy information. I don’t know what, it’s hard to tell what to tell you and how fast and how much to editorialize and how much do I have to say about it. [00:48:25]

It’s hard, it’s really hard to come here and have something happen and want to discuss it and care mostly about connecting with you. And still have to say words one after another that forms some story that we can discuss. That’s a hard thing. It never feels very grateful the way I do it.

THERAPIST: Yes, there’s an aesthetic.

CLIENT: There must be. I don’t know what that looks like but I feel like I’m learning an art or something. The most bizarre art ever, it feels very bizarre; it feels very specific from you and me. [00:49:55]

THERAPIST: Framing, you’re talking about framing? Yes.

CLIENT: In this dream on Tuesday night is that he and I are lying in bed, it was nighttime and our bedroom has these bay windows facing [inaudible at 00:50:19] Street and our shades were not drawn. And there were these scary men prowling outside, right outside the window. And Jeremy was pleading with me, can we please put the shades down and can you come back to bed and can we hold each other really tight because I’m really scared of these men? [00:50:41]

And in the dream I said no, I’m going to leave the shades up and I’m going to go, and then the doorbell rings. And I said I’m going to go see if they need help. Jeremy said no. I run to the door, or I walk I don’t know what it wasn’t clear what my attitude about the men was but they were intruders, they were coming to do something very bad to us. And I let them in and in some other part of the dream there was one and in some other part of the dream there were three.

And Jeremy had this straight razor and he was behind them and I had disappeared. He was trying to cut their face as they came in. He was so, he said he’s never this is the most intense dream he’s ever had which I believe because he rarely remembers his dreams and he rarely [00:51:43]

THERAPIST: Oh so you’re talking about by the time you ride the -

CLIENT: Monday night.

THERAPIST: The [inaudible at 00:51:47] was Monday night; the dream was Tuesday night.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So he said he was so intensely angry with me in the dream. That was the overall main feeling. He was so afraid of being mad but he was so angry with me. He was so alarmed by his anger after waking up. And the other part of the dream is that we were together and he there’s this checkerboard and we were supposed to be putting rice, I was supposed to be putting rice on black squares and maybe he was supposed to be putting rice on the white squares. And I said oh I’m going to put them on every square; I’m just going to put them where I want. [00:52:48]

[Laughter]

I can’t imagine why, why I would act that way in his dream. Wait, I don’t put them on every square, sorry. Jeremy says no you don’t get the rules. You’re breaking all the rules, Allison (ph). He was so mad and so combined somehow he gets very, very, very angry sometimes when I break rules. So he was really, really affected and he told me all about the dream yesterday night. It affected him all throughout the day. He said clearly I have some major anxieties around you messing up. [00:53:44]

THERAPIST: Wait, he said to you clearly he had some anxieties [inaudible at 00:53:49] you messing up.

CLIENT: Yes, messing up stuff. Messing stuff up. He said I’m sorry -

THERAPIST: End of the line, yes.

CLIENT: I’m sorry and I will continue to notice and I’ll try to work on it. And I said yes you do. He said I’m pretty sure that I get the brunt of it. So he thinks that I think that he gets the brunt of his anxiety about messing stuff up. [00:54:25]

THERAPIST: I’m getting a little confused. He gets the brunt of his anxiety about you messing things up?

CLIENT: So I get a bunch of it; he’s anxious that I’m going to mess stuff up. But I think maybe there is something that I’m missing in between where we reflected about how he’s pretty scared about being, my not being perfect. And then he said that he gets, whatever that is in him he gives it to himself much harder, much worse. Oh I think he I said yes, you have some pretty intense anxieties around my messing stuff up and it can be pretty corrosive. And he said yes that I get the brunt of it. [00:55:39]

THERAPIST: Oh I see.

CLIENT: In college we had the one time I expressed doubt about us making out all the time in college but he expressed it one day one time. And it was this day where he got really, really, really, really upset that I was not perfect. That’s how he describes it. He realized that I was not perfect and this for some reason presented a huge problem to him. And when he finally came to me about it he was very upset. I’m playing the card of an adult and I really wish I had a different card. He said Allison (ph) I think you are very wise. And that difference between us, maybe I wish I was perfect and I don’t know, but that difference has always been pretty [00:56:49]

THERAPIST: Yes I think that relates to my confusion a couple minutes ago. To me I heard his dream being about to the extent it’s about you per se, just in terms of boundaries and crossing lines and wanting to let pain in that he feels are very dangerous. And he seemed to, because I know you but his focus seemed a lot on you were doing things wrong I guess or you were messing up. And I bring that up because I would so not imagine that to be your focus or how you would hear the dream per se in terms of you that I get what you mean about how he’s really focused on nothing ever being perfect and that doesn’t seem so much to be a good thing. [00:57:51]

CLIENT: No, I don’t care. Yes, I mean maybe we’ll figure out that I do but I really don’t think I care that much. He is very bothered when I, I don’t know. Twenty examples today, I can’t transfer stuff from one container to another without spilling. This happens in the kitchen all the time. I spill some; I don’t clean it up right away. Or I track dirt around the house or I let olive oil drip down the bottle, I don’t close bottles properly, I don’t hang the towels so it’ll dry off, all this stuff, blah, blah, blah. So there’s a lot of stuff that comes up around my not doing stuff perfectly for him. [00:58:45]

THERAPIST: Yes, and he probably knows already about the options that you don’t. I’m not saying he’s OCD but often folks with ADHD have to struggle with OCD stuff because it’s so hard to regulate some of these, you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yes. No, no, yes I do know about it but I want to hear what you have to say. [00:59:07]

THERAPIST: Oh just that it can involve such a struggle for folks with that to sort of pull it together because it takes so much energy and force that sometimes that kind of spills over in little obsessive or compulsive things. Like my room’s a mess but dammit when I clean it everything has got to be just so, or it has to be completely clean because I feel like such a mess inside that things out of place means I’m going to fall apart. Yes, I have to have such strong high standards because otherwise I’m just not motivated enough to really get done what needs to get done. [01:00:12]

CLIENT: That is true. I think that’s his biggest struggle right now. The OCD stuff has come and gone I mean he’s got an uncle who really was debilitated by OCD. His mom’s got a friend that [inaudible at 01:00:33]. There’s a lot of humor and there’s a lot of lightness and there’s a lot of insight in my opinion into it in his family. Yes, so I don’t hear the dream as in terms of what it says about me. I, yes I pay much more attention to the fact that I’m breaking rules all the time and I love it what it’s doing to Jeremy. But for him it, he was very upset about his anxiety about my messing up was so prominent. [01:01:19]

We had talked about during the car ride home about I don’t know I wanted him to agree to socialize regularly and not involve or express that I’m being very respectful to him by not bringing people up to the house unless he wants it. But he never wants it so it’s very stressful to me. So he thinks that was part of the intruder dream. But we talked a bunch about feeling like the protector of our house and our family for him, how he feels that way; that he needs to provide and protect. [01:02:15]

THERAPIST: I was going to say that I don’t know how relevant it is to say something about his dream but I mean the thing that comes sort of jumping out at me is how much you want him to open the doors and windows.

CLIENT: Yes, yes. No, that’s a new way of looking at that. I’m agreeing with you.

THERAPIST: Yes for all, I mean and that is actually what happens on Monday night. You let a whole bunch of stuff in that he usually doesn’t and it’s overwhelming and awful and painful, scary. And you, I’m sure he picks up how you want him to make space for all these things. [01:03:09]

CLIENT: Yesterday I could tell that he was so, being so nice to me because of how badly he felt about the dream. When I thought that I was telling him for the first time, apparently I was telling him for the third time, Jay has said early on, not recently, that he could recommend somebody if you ever wanted to switch therapists, which he said to me early on. And that’s really not a place I should go with Jeremy any more. But I did and I got there’s an emoticon, there’s a back emoticon. It’s an arrow going to the left and it says back on it, and that’s all I got for him. And I got a couple of warning, danger signs, a little [inaudible at 01:04:07]. And that’s I’m out, that was a very mild response for him. I could tell the dream had impacted him. [01:04:14]

But yes, I am always, I am way over the top without opening up and making changes with him and he can tell. Yes, but in some ways I feel really dumb because it’s missing the point to try and chart somebody’s dream for them.

THERAPIST: Well, I suspect that it’s some of the same things and I think it’s an elaboration of what we’ve been talking about with driving the bus. Some of the same things I think that make what he’s struggling with hard for you and frustrating and what lead you to sort of this aesthetic of how you talk here. [01:05:34]

CLIENT: What do you mean? I get that bus aesthetic part; I don’t get how it relates to what bothers me about him other than when I’m trying to drive. [01:06:18]

THERAPIST: Right. [Pause] I guess what I had in mind was that he’s kind of not operating in the arcs you’re comfortable with. Like you want the arc to be you get home, get the cheese, do this and do that. [01:07:12]

CLIENT: Yes but I don’t say it. There’s a very strange attachment thing that is something about me.

THERAPIST: Right. I guess I also want to be clear I don’t mean to be putting all of your frustration with this with him on you or talking it all out to your being neurotic or bus drivy or whatever. That’s not what I had in mind. But I do think there’s some of that. [01:08:03]

CLIENT: Yes I could imagine being, I could imagine a better partner or being a better partner even if nothing in Jeremy had change I could imagine myself changing in a way that would cause less suffering. So yes I own that, I own that to [inaudible at 01:08:36].

THERAPIST: Yes. I guess the reason I said an elaboration of bus drivy is, it’s not as simple as when you’re telling something in here that you want to be in control of how you’re telling it. I mean that’s part of it but it’s more particular. It’s right, I guess as we talked about it’s sort of protecting against the helplessness of not knowing how well you will connect with me if you just talk. [01:09:26]

[Pause]

CLIENT: The only thing is just that I think also the separation digs up [inaudible at 01:10:02] for him and just talking requires a kind of a space around what I’m talking about in my experience. When I’ve been able to just talk, it’s usually when I’m not afraid and dreading and brooding or incredibly aware of it. [01:10:35]

THERAPIST: I guess you’re afraid of having to leave before you really felt close enough.

CLIENT: Yes. [Pause] That’s why I get to, yes, yes, whatever that means attainable or unattainable. [Pause] Yes a lot of times it feels really close enough to not be so preoccupied with it or with leaving. It’s not really something that I’m [going to get.] (ph) [01:13:38]

[Pause]

THERAPIST: I still guess it’s on me. I’m not available in the right way. [Pause] I think now you’re kind of feel like you’re right there and I don’t see. [01:15:30]

CLIENT: Yes I’m here. I’m open.

[Pause]

THERAPIST: And I guess because I kind of bend intermittently. [01:16:14]

CLIENT: Yes. You mean in some ways you were completely unavailable and in inappropriate ways?

THERAPIST: I’m smiling because I can hear that either way. I think I know what you mean. I’m not available for things that aren’t appropriate but I think what you actually said was unavailable in inappropriate ways, so I’m being inappropriate when I’m being available. [Laughs] It’s not a big deal I just thought that was funny. [01:17:25]

CLIENT: I see. But it is inappropriate.

THERAPIST: Of me?

CLIENT: Yes to not be available in those ways. But yes, I mean appropriate ways. Yes, that feels during one level of the appropriate way is really constant, you’re always available. And there’s a whole bunch of stuff in between that goes into what you say. [Pause] I don’t know what my role is through Jeremy. [01:18:10]

THERAPIST: I was just thinking, I think yes I pose the same problem for you that way actually. So much of the stuff you can’t do in a way is stuff he would also be doing for you. Like gee guys [inaudible at 01:19:27] for both of you. Like his getting through college I bet made a huge difference for you. [01:19:41]

CLIENT: Yes, it was everything; his figuring out his creative process to the extent that he can make music, his being happy. I mean it’s all about some of it is him doing stuff but other parts of it is he’s happy for both of us, he’s happy for [01:20:23]

THERAPIST: I know I sort of get this thing for you with both he and I in a way. You I think feels like sort of love is kind of all you need. So you’re saying hey guys I love you guys so what the hell else do you need and where the hell are you. What else could possibly be going on that actually matters nearly as much as that?

CLIENT: Well I don’t think, that’s funny but I don’t think that’s it all on me. You both also love me and I don’t see what more their needs, what more needs to happen for either of you. I love you; you love me.

THERAPIST: Well apparently we need to get our acts together. [01:21:31]

CLIENT: I know. I don’t know what more needs to happen in order for you to get your act -

THERAPIST: Yes, yes, that’s right. I guess maybe [inaudible at 01:21:49] but that’s what I meant but maybe I’m missing something in what you’re saying.

CLIENT: You said I love both of you and that’s -

THERAPIST: I see and you were also talking about how we feel about you.

CLIENT: Yes that’s a huge part of it.

THERAPIST: I understand. [01:22:06]

CLIENT: I love plenty of people and things. I don’t expect too much from a lot of that love and in some ways those are much healthier loves, maybe for that reason. But yes, there’s this really, really strong expectation that I attach to both of you in really similar ways and [inaudible at 01:22:46] ways that shows up when I think about how you love me too. [01:23:01]

[Pause]

Yes, there’s kind of like a doomsday feel to both of it, to both of you. If Jeremy doesn’t figure out some way to be more accepting and more fulfilled with something that [inaudible at 01:24:00] very much about work, we’re going to die. I mean we’re going to die anyway but we’re going to die of it; it may kill us. [01:24:18]

And that’s, I think it’s true. It’s pretty dramatic but I think it’s true. It’s like what I felt but it’s much more like a [inaudible at 01:24:33] check on my fear. Like if you don’t figure out how to express your love to me it’s going to kill me and you. And similarly I can’t really put into words what it is but it’s going to kill me and you [inaudible at 01:25:13].

THERAPIST: Yes I imagine there’s some you probably can feel it, something hard to get to.

CLIENT: Yes, I think that’s really important that it’s hard to get to. [Pause] It’s [inaudible at 01:26:13] and it’s happening for me today. Not so much shit right?

THERAPIST: You what? [01:26:18]

CLIENT: My bladder.

THERAPIST: Oh. You have to pee?

CLIENT: Yes in a same really, really, sudden way that I start shivering less. You went to the bathroom today and last week. I’m just noticing.

THERAPIST: Yes, so the same thing might be happening to me? [01:27:13]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: I see. I’m having a somatic reaction? If you could explain to me what it is it might help over time.

CLIENT: What it is that makes us both have to pee?

THERAPIST: I’m just teasing you. I’m saying it seems to me you may be projecting what may be going on with you onto me. So if you could explain what’s going on with me, maybe that will [01:28:09]

[Laughter]

CLIENT: I won’t make any bets with you about the reasons you have to pee today. I’m just bringing it up. [Pause] Do you wish that Jeremy were your patient instead of me?

THERAPIST: I’m not going to answer.

CLIENT: I know. Sometimes I think he was right that I am a most difficult patient. I was just thinking oh, Jay didn’t give Jeremy what he needs. It wouldn’t be inappropriate. I mean I don’t think anyone can give Jeremy what he needs except for Jeremy but it’s much more than you can give me what I need which is entirely inappropriate. [01:29:49]

THERAPIST: We’ve got five minutes. [Pause] So I think that things that have happened in the last couple minutes are a reaction to the thought about the sort of two-parter, which was one if I can’t find some appropriate way, or let’s just say some way to express to you how I love you then it’s going to be catastrophic and we will die. [01:31:16]

Part two is, and I think this is probably the scary part, that you have some fantasy or thought that we don’t know of yet to how that would happen, how that catastrophe will come about.

CLIENT: Oh. Yes or it also seems like I don’t know much about what it would look like to rescue us because -

THERAPIST: So that was what you had in mind when you were referring to, the fantasy would be what I would do or say? [01:32:15]

CLIENT: Yes. Or what Jeremy would do or say. I think part of it is that I don’t think I have anything in the world that would completely alleviate my anxiety that comes from somebody else. But, yes, but then it sort of feels like there is.

THERAPIST: Right. I see so maybe it was sort of how that would come into contact with reality that made you nervous and had to pee. And [01:33:23]

CLIENT: I think also what made me nervous and had to pee is that I told you that I think you loved me. I don’t know if I told you that; that’s why. I think once. But that was back in -

THERAPIST: That was what?

CLIENT: That was back when I was [pigeon-holed] (ph) I think, right? Same time you remember?

THERAPIST: I don’t know if I would describe it as [pigeon-holed] (ph) but I think I know what you mean. [01:34:21]

CLIENT: Do you think [inaudible at 01:34:27]

THERAPIST: Yes. That I understand. Should we stop now? [01:34:35]

[Pause] [01:36:13]

END TRANSCRIPT