TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So we're not on for Friday. We'll have to do some other time.

CLIENT: Friday, yes, a vacation right?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (chuckles)(yawns) So things are proceeding in New York. The terms are on the table, apparently Kevin mentioned it in the last meeting on Friday, which is good. Makes it more of a, more of a faith accompli. Jack, Jack, I'm not sure, hethere's a complexity. They haven't talked to the Chief of Staff about it yet. So I think that's the last hitch. Once, once they, sort of, basically budget money for the consultancy, then we're ready to go. They want to do that because it's kind of a major initiative and I don't think they've dedicated anyone to it yet, and they have to. So it's all good.[00:01:14]

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: I just had a couple thoughts about the process. Kind of my, my feelings, my something, with the respect to this end game. So I was completely paralyzed yesterday. For no real reason, I have an excuse. I'd had a conversation with an old, colleague, somebody that I had actually hired. He's a data base specialist, whom twelve years ago, I hired to set up a contacts data base for us. Now basically, you know, I don't think he's actually formally on staff, but he's de facto, kind of the, the, kind of consulting position for IT at a huge corporate bank. In other words, Kevin has brought him on and kind of placed him in a, in a critical role. So he will be evaluating their systems, with some budgetary authority. So, so I just, I have had some ideas about what I would like to do, or sort of turning it over in my head, about doing, as part of this initiative that I'm working on with Jack. Or hopefully, prospectively will be working on it. [00:03:05]

So I wanted to ask Thomas about some of the, technical aspects of it. He's Dutch, so we've kind of bonded over that over the years. He introduced me to his brother and sister when I was in the Netherlands. I met them actually, had dinner with them. And, you know, whatever, so I hired him, and I helped him out. We've had a very, kind of cordial, nice relationship of the years. And, I, I actually did him a favor two weeks ago or so. Just he prepared and evaluative report and he wanted me to check the English. So it's a great tool. Anyhow, so I ran this by him, and I told him this was likely happening. And, you know, it's not a done deal yet, but it's as done a deal as you're going to get. Sort of been pushing it along over the past four months basically, and you know, we're kind of in the end game. But you know, I asked him to be discrete, since it wasn't settled yet. And there was, I mean I guess the other back story is there was some you know, tension, complexity, with regard to this relationship between Kevin's taking over at this huge public institution and, and Health Corp. I think, I don't know exactly how to characterize it, but there's this fear that people will be hired away from Health Corp, to the bank. And then I think there is some, quite a few personal sensitivities. You can kind of imagine, imagine how that goes. [00:05:05]

So Thomas told me, you know, kind of the extent of his, interaction with them, and what kinds of things he was doing. And prefaced it with saying, you know, please don't share this. And I told him in return that we were on the cusp of doing this thing, and likewise asked him to keep it confidential. [00:05:29]

THERAPIST: I'm sorry, I want to make sure I get this straight. So who does Thomas work for now?

CLIENT: Thomas, oh sorry, he's the director of IT at Health Corp.

THERAPIST: Alright so he's at Partisan, I thought he was (inaudible)

CLIENT: Sorry that was, that, I didn't give that key piece of background. Right.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: He's the, he's the Director of IT now at Health Corp. I hired him, you know, in ‘98 I think.

THERAPIST: He's been doing some, sort of formal work for?

CLIENT: I think Kevin, Kevin You know, he basically replaced their e-mail system.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: The e-mail system for over 18,000 people. You know, and, over the summer. And I think, it sounded, it sounds like Kevin has been taking on a couple of trips to, to look at their system. [00:06:12]

THERAPIST: I see, so even though he officially is working or Partisan, (crosstalking)

CLIENT: Exactly, he's doing this on the, he's doing this on the weekends.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay, gotcha.

CLIENT: Hyper-confident, really nice, unassuming, smart guy. So, anyway we had this conversation and I told him my ideas for this project. And I asked him what kind of systems would be appropriate to develop, the, the data base back end and what not. We had a nice coffee at Starbucks, went back, and all of yesterday, I was just paralyzed by the thought that he was going to, you know, tell somebody, and that this thing would be fucked up. That this, this job would be fucked up. That I would have fucked it up by being indiscreet by telling too much. By, you know, assuming something was going to happen, that wasn't going to happen. I mean like, totally, like I couldn't go out of the house. [00:07:05]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I was thinking, you know,

THERAPIST: So you couldn't get to work actually.

CLIENT: Well, I mean, the logic of going to work at this point, quite frankly, is almost nil in the sense that Phil is not generating almost any, kind of project activity. I'm not initiating new project activity. Maybe there's a few, you know, reports that I could develop. But I certainly don't have to go into the office to do them. So basically, I've been showing up to work, you know, three days a week, since I'm officially 75 percent time, purely for the sake of appearances. [00:07:46]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And you know, I mean, at this point, it just, I would like to have a regular place to show up. When I show up there, and there's nothing to talk to anybody about. Nothing to do. I don't want to, you know, I don't want to be drawn into and indiscretion, or you know, I feel constrained. I feel, and this was the other thing that I wanted to talk about. Because, at the end of the day, what I feel is, I'm leaving. You know, I kind of, I'm, I'm, I'm in a little cubicle that has boxes piled high on the sides. Nobody has been especially, I mean, the whole, the gig, the gig, is really, is really, feels really up. And more importantly, I feel up. And because I feel up, there's this weird sort of emotional, sort of tenuation sort of, of my activation energy or whatever you want to call it. That makes it very hard to, start, even the straight up tasks. Over and above the kind of substance of the matter. Over and above the question of whether it's worth while. Over and above, anything. I feel like I'm leaving and this makes it hard to work. I don't know, I don't know how else to describe it, and that feels important. That feels, that feels very significant. Because I think I do, I think basically what happened, you know, in August and September, in a way that was you know, sort of emotionally devastating. I really, I felt like it was the end. [00:09:49]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Was that I was doing this. I mean, I think it was the same phenomenon. I was leaving. I had some intuition that I was leaving. I was taking steps to leave. And so I couldn't be there. I couldn't, it felt almost intolerable to be there, to be doing work you know, in an area that I wasn't going to be. And I don't know, I mean this, this feels significant. [00:10:26]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: So I guess those are the two things I've been thinking about. Why, why I was just so, this spasm of paranoia. I don't know, I don't quite know how to, anxiety. You know, there's some, some kind of anxiety that I feel gripped by that made it very difficult to work. Converging with this sense of leaving that has a similar effect. (furniture moving around) (pause from [00:11:09] til [00:12:28]) Is it, my compassion for anything over here? (pause) I was just wondering why you rearranged the furniture?

THERAPIST: Oh, just idle, idle thought. (pause) They repainted, I've been meaning to get the deck out actually. I'm going to put the couch like against that wall, facing this way because I like the (inaudible) [00:13:03]

CLIENT: Space.

THERAPIST: Actually I've been contemplating getting some things to go on the wall. Because,

CLIENT: Why do you think you have?

THERAPIST: It's about time. Why do you ask?

CLIENT: We were talking about this kind of thing.

THERAPIST: (chuckle)

CLIENT: Goose and gander and all that.

THERAPIST: Well, I'm not sure, I've had some speculations, but probably, not a good idea to go into them too much. One is I've actually trained at different places that were sort of know for being, you know, like, very sort of, community focused, and always a bit shabby looking, like kind of run down. Although they were sort of, well regarded places to work. I was just part of the like, how can you eat those, like I have a bit of a, identification with that? [00:14:44]

CLIENT: Minimalist.

THERAPIST: Yes. But there are probably other things there too. (pause)

CLIENT: I asked to provoke you a bit, but also because, I find it difficult to inhabit offices. My working theory is that, it's because I'm expecting to have to leave again soon.

THERAPIST: I see. (pause) Does that, contrive to some feeling of like, mandatoriness here, in other words, because I have a -

CLIENT: I, I have remarked on it, not Oh God, out loud. But I've noticed it, and been curious about it. It's more minimalist than, than the few other, other-

THERAPIST: Shrinks offices

CLIENT: Shrinks offices that I've seen. (sighs) Maybe worried about it a little bit. I, I wasn't exactly conscious of doing so, but you know, worried about it. Worried that it was a reflection of your commitment. [00:16:35]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Because that, you know, I worry, I definitely worry about, my own, reluctance to inhabit such space. Both in the sense of putting up decorations, and sometimes in the sense of showing up. As yesterday.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I think there's a feed back look between showing up, and having an enjoyable work situation. And, you know, I guess in some sense, these, the brown outs, like August and September are just another way of expressing that same uncertainty, or reluctance to commit. Now granted at that time, had been, I had kind of gotten the sense that it was untenable. But I don't know. Feedback loop. [00:17:54]

THERAPIST: Yes. Yes and, I think a way that, a way that, that sense of lack of commitment, or uncertainty about commitment can really shake you to the core.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And then its sort of both the anxiety and the, and the anger from that, that shut you down.

CLIENT: Yes. Anger. That was interesting.

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: Anger from, in what sense?

THERAPIST: What kind of, I guess the other thing is the oppositional anger that we've talked about, and that you don't, like.

CLIENT: I don't like. (chuckle) Question begging. (ph)

THERAPIST: I mean that anxiety had sort of been clear for a while, as part of the problem, that comes from being anxious when you feel like the foundations of a relationship or a situation are, unstable.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But, we had talked again, a number of times of kind of getting angry and sort of oppositional, sort of being like you want to stick it to the other-

CLIENT: No, I don't think that's, that would not be the way I would characterize. I, of course, you could turn it around and say that I'm being oppositional, but no. I mean, it's not the anger that's oppositional. You know, I'm pissed off, you know, about Robert being a flake. I'm pissed off about you know, the way I was treated over the spring, you know, by these old colleagues. I'm pissed off that, you know, everybody is kind of, proceeding with their career, and you know their comfortable boudoir lifestyle, and I'm, I'm still kind of stuck. I mean the oppositional aspect is behavior, you know, is a kind of behavioral response to this feeling. But the emotion itself is not. The emotion itself is genuine. I, I have an actual objection. I have, you know, I, the anger is, you're, you're talking as if the anger is some sort of artifact of something else.0:20:45.5

THERAPIST: Yet I'm talking as if the oppositionality comes from-

CLIENT: Yeah the oppositionality is a, is, you know, now an adaptive response to something, but the anger is genuine. I would like a more constructive response to it. I mean, oppositional here, is modified anger. That's what I'm responding to. That's what I, my sense has been, my sense has been, that, I don't know, really since the beginning, when I've gotten static for this particular response. You know, the very clear premise has been that the anger is manufactured. That the anger is just some, some kind of you know, weird product of, maladation. [00:21:54]

THERAPIST: Oh yeah, I mean, I don't see it that way at all, any more than I see the anxiety as being a weird byproduct of the paralysis. I mean I think that, like carnality completely goes the other way. That the anger sort of begats the oppositionality, in the same way the anxiety begats the paralysis. I guess I don't, seem to be on different pages on that. Although I understand, how I didn't convey that clearly in what I said.

CLIENT: I mean that really is a feedback loop. I really am angry and pissed off.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: About, about, you know, about the way that, there's almost a bad faith aspect to, to this line that (pause) that I don't want to do it. That's its all about me not wanting to do it. Rather, rather than, you know, being a, an unsuccessful attempt to express a perfectly legitimate feeling, anger. [00:23:41]

THERAPIST: Well, (pause at [00:23:51] til [00:24:16]) And to me there's been a couple of ways that we've talked about it, one of these is now, where, at least in my mind, I imagined that, it was being angry about ways you had been done to, and reasonably so. That led you to, kind of, unconsciously refuse to work, or to produce. I don't really, think to me that is, I wouldyeah, I anyway. That's how I, I've seen that. And the other thing we've talked about it, is the probing aspect of it. But, at least again, in my mind that really to, your being worried, and kind of wanting reassurance. And again, reasonably so, given things that have happened. By sort of, sometimes poking and prodding a bit to make sure the other person is going to stick around, or have some commitment to you. [00:25:41]

CLIENT: Right. So I guess yesterday they kind of intersected. (pause) Yesterday they kind of intersected. On the one hand, you know, this angry response that leads me to want to cut myself off. And on the other hand, this anxiety that I will be cut off.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it was totally paralyzing. And I think I have some concern that if this, you know, these related mechanisms, converging mechanisms, aren't dealt with, then it will happen again. And I'm running out of get out of jail free cards. I'm running out of, I'm running out of chances to do this. I'm not sure, if I did that again, in this context, that would be pretty bad. (pause) So I have some, you know, as we kind of settle the final details of this thing. You know, I feel, excited. You know I feel hopeful. I feel interested, I feel engaged. But I also feel concern. I want to -

THERAPIST: I can imagine so.

CLIENT: I want to interrupt this cycle. This very old cycle. And it feels like, you know, in some sense, all of my ducks are in a row. In the sense that you know, here we are, we have, you know, we have a bead on it I think. [00:27:44]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But, I don't know. I don't yeah, I feel concern. (pause) I don't understand, I mean I understand the way that we've been discussing, you know, what happened yesterday. So I have an analysis of it that makes sense to me. But I have no idea how to intervene in it. (pause) Like I don't know exactly, I can't really imagine a possible alternative future. [00:28:36]

THERAPIST: So what was, what was your thought about the way the two mechanisms converged yesterday. About, can you elaborate on it a bit?

CLIENT: Well on the one hand was the office, and going into the office, and is a complex of, you know, emotions and cognitions and what have you. About what it's like to be in the office and sitting at that desk and really having nothing to do.

THERAPIST: Which are, which is what?

CLIENT: Sorry, and you know being kind of pissed off about that. And being annoyed or whatever. I mean.

THERAPIST: Actually I think that the particulars are probably important. What is it that, I mean I know in a general way, but I don't know in a, your mind yesterday sort of way. What you imitated you would be pissed off about sitting there in your office doing nothing.

CLIENT: Pissed off is too simple I think. I mean there are things I'm pissed off about, you like, not actively.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But you know, disappointed, let down. I myself have let down, you know I have let down and been let down. You know, that people are you know, like, it's not that so much that people aren't interacting with me in a friendly way. They'll say hi, but there's no system. I'm not like doing anything with them. There's nothing, there's no interaction to have. There's no kind of work place. Phil is just like a Wizard of Oz. You know, this collaborator that I had is, you know, who is nominally, kind of the, the responsible for the direction and vision of the program. And you know, he's a complete cypher. And so what that means is I go to work, and I've got, you know, it's like there's no work place. There's the fiction of the work place, but there's no actual work place. [00:30:44]

THERAPIST: It's a sham.

CLIENT: It's a sham. And so, you know, angry about that is-

THERAPIST: I guess it's in a way, it's even worse maybe, in that there is sort of a promise of a work place, and -

CLIENT: That was my expectation.

THERAPIST: When they hired you.

CLIENT: Well yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm underlining how reasonable expectation that is when somebody brings you on and pays you that kind of money and stuff. Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean the whole thing is just ridiculous. It's truly ridiculous.

THERAPIST: So I guess, I imagine, you know, the, understandable or even expectable intensity of your feelings and frustrations about this, that you know, you don't want to be sitting at a desk like all day.

CLIENT: It feels crazy at some level. And the craziness is systemic and you know, I have a perfectly sound analysis of the craziness. And could go on for more length than it is interesting to us. But, you know[00:31:54]

THERAPIST: Interesting to me the way that it shifts from being their craziness to being your craziness. In other words, that,

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: In the, at some point I'd imagine yesterday, or this morning, you feel like, ah, I'm acting crazy again. You know, I don't go into the office. I don't, you know, I'm paralyzed. I don't do anything. But then when you lay it out like this, it's clear that the craziness, certainly located in, in the way, sort of Phil set the situation up. It's sham, and really disappointing and in bad faith. Yeah.

CLIENT: So.

THERAPIST: I guess I wonder if, there is some way that you're protecting them or protecting Phil even a little bit.

CLIENT: Yeah, definitely. I had this lunch with, with this guy, who is the head of mental health, of the cross site mental health program. And a really good guy. Works in children's, has a high interest in children. He's really sort of sweet, thoughtful, sensitive guy. And he's like the only person I've ever told exactly how the program is functioning. And I said, don't tell this to anybody, I don't want to get Phil in trouble. I don't want to, I mean you know, any sound assessment evaluation of how it's going, would de-fund him. [00:33:58]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I mean you know, this program has a budget of $160,000. And it's crazy. We have to stop.

THERAPIST: Nope, nope. I want to add in here that you are protecting Phil in another way as well, which is to, I think the way he sort of wait, I think maybe it will be best to try it like this. So, you know, in the last few minutes, you said hey look, this thing happened again, I'm worried about the next job. I, I don't, you know, I have an analysis of what happened, but have no way to intervene. And I said okay, tell me more about what it was like. And, you laid out as, in sort of general terms. And I waited around and said sort of what are the particulars. And you said, well he sort of pissed me off. And it emerged very clearly, that, you know, you feel disappointed, betrayed in a way, like this is ridiculous, this is a sham, dah-dah-dah. And I guess what's striking to me, is that like, before we actually investigate that, you feel like most of what's going on, like a lot of what's going on is your problem. That you're sort of acting crazy, and being paralyzed, and unable to function effectively. [00:35:47]

CLIENT: Which is true.

THERAPIST: What is it that you ought to have been doing? I mean would there have been a point to going into your office and doing essentially nothing?

CLIENT: There is something that I need to do. I, there is no reason to do it in the office. I'm trying to create a sense that, our program, you know, is actually there and functioning. You know as way of, I don't know, it's like Phil has made, despite several requests from people who really have his best interests at heart. You know has been urged to kind of create a sense of activity you know, within the program. And, you know he's basically tried to turf it to me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: He's tried to turf it to me. He's tried to, put it, you know completely in my hands you know. And in my responsibility, you know, as if he had no responsibility whatsoever to kind of, you know, create a reality of this program. Even though he, you know, on a litigular level, he's the one, you know, who's -

THERAPIST: Well I don't know on a litigeral level, but I imagine the reality is supposed to be

CLIENT: Supposed to be. He's the one who's a physician. It's like, within the system, the physician is, is the person to whom money has been allocated. He has gotten this money, you know, because he was one of the students and, anyway, whatever. And so, on the one hand, you know, it really pisses me off, in the sense that, you know, it's always Phil's program, no matter how much I do. It's always going to be Phil's program. And yet, you know, he's not doing the things that will actually sustain it, and so, you know, they're going to de-fund it. It's like, you know, as sure as the sun rising in the east. It's, it's going to happen. [00:37:41]

THERAPIST: We don't have to veer too much into this, but this does represent a lot of stuff that happened with you and your dad.

CLIENT: Totally, totally. And, you know, might mean, I mean this pattern recurs again and again and again. And when it doesn't recur, I expect it to recur, in a way that makes me respond in a similar manner. And does not stand me in very good stead at all. [00:38:07]

THERAPIST: And I think one thing that you're struggling with is, like, in a variety of sort or, more castrated and more psychological way. A struggle between being pissed off at how you are being treated and feeling guilty and wanting to help the guy out.

CLIENT: Yes. I feel bad that, you know, I've been at 15 percent for the last two months. I feel sympathetic to Phil, because whether I'm projecting, or because there's an actual parallelism here. I feel like, you know, his personality, is somewhat similar, if not very similar to mine. You know, these, he has these brown out's, these communication things, he seems to have these kind of attachment issues. You know I think in a lot of ways, we're a lot similar, so I feel, I feel some empathy there. Etc., etc, I mean, both are true, I think that's right. I agree. [00:39:21]

THERAPIST: I guess what I'm wondering is whether you, you sort of take on some of the paralysis in part, as a way of like, well like with the rest of it. You know, if he has these problems which are the cause of the trouble to begin with, that you, you know, you sort of take it all on yourself.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Including, sort of, in a way, imitating the brown out.

CLIENT: Yes. Yes.

THERAPIST: So that it looks more like your problem.

CLIENT: So it becomes my problem. Often. When I, I'm responsible -

THERAPIST: I think this is why you subconsciously make it your problem.

CLIENT: Because?

THERAPIST: In that, because, you're trying to take care of him, or protect him.

CLIENT: (sighs) Maybe. All true on that a little bit, but, maybe. One reason why anyway.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There are some other things going on. [00:40:53]

THERAPIST: Absolutely. Sure.

CLIENT: I mean consciously, I feel done. I mean, consciously, I felt done in August. I was just like, this is fucked. This is completely fucked. It was like, he even more fucked when he decided you know to not take this job in San Diego, which frankly he's crazy for not have taken.

THERAPIST: Given the state of things here, right?

CLIENT: You know if you want to monetize so to speak. Cash in on, you know, a project that ultimately is not going to go very well. It would be wise to do so, whatever, anyway. So, yeah. His wife wanted to go to San Diego. Anyway, yeah, I mean you know, so I've been done, so that's, that's one issue. But the other issue is yeah, I do feel protective. I don't want bad to happen to Phil. I like Phil. He's a really sweet guy. And everybody says this about him. I'm not the only one who has this response. But my protectiveness is very maladactive. [00:42:15]

THERAPIST: Well, I guess he's kind of sweet, and kind of not. I mean he sure as hell hasn't looked out for you in a lot of ways. I mean, I believe that his mannerisms, his sort of apparent intentions are often kind, but, there are other ways he's totally fucked you over hasn't he?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. In all sorts of ways, it's true. So you are looking at this parallelism with my father.

THERAPIST: No, no most immediately, I'm looking at a way that you seem to not want to see that. You seem to

CLIENT: Oh, no, maybe in this conversation I've, I've sort of

THERAPIST: I mean just his minute when you are saying that like he's a really sweet guy

CLIENT: Sure, sure, sure.

THERAPIST: I mean I believe he's

CLIENT: Completely irresponsible.

THERAPIST: And in, he's not just irresponsible though I guess, in the sense that he, part of -

CLIENT: (inaudible) doesn't like him at all. I mean you know, I guess that's obvious that she wouldn't like him given the upheaval that this collaboration has caused our household.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But specifically, you know, she, what's the word for what she thinks Phil is, he is, I guess a use, not quite a user. Well, you know, he and his wife came home for dinner. And, you know, they brought their twins, and right as they were leaving, his wife picked up one of the twins, and said, she's got a dirty diaper. And I can't remember how it came out that Phil knew that she had a dirty diaper, but didn't want to change it, so he left it for his wife to change. And (inaudible), I don't know if that's (inaudible) interpretation or,

THERAPIST: (laughter)

CLIENT: But I think it, I think that became clear as part of the conversation I remember the and she said, you know, this is completely emblematic of how Phil operates. He's kind of an operator.

THERAPIST: (laughter) Okay.

CLIENT: So you're laughing, I was kind of laughing, he was laughing, his wife was really pissed. (inaudible) was furious.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm not laughing because he got away with the dirty diaper. I'm laughing because it's

CLIENT: Because it's so, emblematic.

THERAPIST: Yeah, because it seems like a really wonderful emblem, for, you know, leaving you to deal with all the crap.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: We'll stop.

CLIENT: Yeah, alright. So, Wednesday, not Friday.

THERAPIST: I'll see you on Wednesday, not Friday.

CLIENT: Not Friday, but Wednesday. Have a good Thanksgiving.

THERAPIST: Thank you, you too. Take care.

CLIENT: See you then.

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