TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Good Morning. (blows nose)

(pause from [00:00:11] to [00:01:01]

CLIENT: So on one good hand, things are moving, in New York. Which is good. They are just taking an ungodly amount of time. They haven't yet made me an offer, but that offer, offer is coming. All the paperwork has been submitted. There's a process in which they come back with a, a number and we go back and forth. I'm flying down there next Monday and Tuesday.

THERAPIST: So we're good for next Wednesday?

CLIENT: Yeah. Unless I hear otherwise.

THERAPIST: Yes, okay.

CLIENT: Jennie (sp) and I have really been in the middle of a conflict, it's been rough. This past week. (pause from [00:02:01] to [00:02:46]

I guess I've been, I've been pretty, pretty pissed off. (pause [00:02:51] to [00:03:23])

I think it, that work is just fucking, it's, it's crazy. It's just, it's crazy. I'll be so relieved to be done with it, to be moving on to something substantive. But, I guess I have some concerns, about the usual shit. My internal sense of order. But this morning, I, this morning, I just,(voice breaks) I don't know, I couldn't, I couldn't get myself together, I feel very rumpled this morning. You know, my shirts not ironed, my hair's kind of a mess, I feel kind of disheveled. Like I don't know why we had a conversation about finances. I guess Jennie was stressed out about (pause) (sigh) Well, she's been taking the car payments and expenses because I've been taking the psychotherapy. Psychotherapy is just, you know, between you and Tammy, and you haven't been, you know, a huge, as you know, unfortunately, speaking of which, you need to give me a bill.

THERAPIST: Right, I think you -

CLIENT: You were going to consult with April last bit of what I owe you, with, with the remainder of the co-pay I think.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It's just, it's, and, I mean the real problem is, I mean it's that, and it's not inconsequential for a cash flow standpoint. I haven't been, you know, Tamara doesn't do, doesn't do billing, she turfs that to the client.

THERAPIST: You didn't submit it?

CLIENT: I hadn't been, I hadn't been submitting it. [00:05:42]

And there are other bills that I haven't submitted. And frankly, I mean, Phil did pretty much fuck me in lots of ways. Among others, you know, by suggesting just basically, you know, he basically asked for a sign of commit, as a sign of commitment, for me to quit the other job. Which I foolishly went along with, I have no idea why I did that in retrospect. But as a result, you know, our cash flow, you know, my income is less by you know, $25,000. That's pretty stupid. Stupid. I don't know. And I guess, at some level, I still, I feel, (pause from [00:06:38] to [00:06:59])

I don't know, it feels like a mess. The only reason, no, it's not totally true, the main reason, the proximal reason why you know, I just kept on pressing Phil. Was because, because I wanted to make a household with Jennie and that was the, most immediate and relevant source of income. As I say that, I realize that that's not entirely true. I was in some, some state of distress. I'd been, I (moan) I don't know, the narrative is escaping me here. But, (pause) oh, what is it that I feel? (pause [00:07:50] to[00:08:46] with several sigh's interspersed)

It's just not coming together. (phone alarm goes off) I don't know how many times I turn off the volume on that alarm which is random. So, I don't know, I've turned it off twice.(whispers) I don't know how to do it. I wonder how it turned itself back on. (sigh) So, I don't know, I just, it just feels so out of control, even as I'm trying to exercise control over it.[00:08:46]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I got angry at Jennie. We have a, she has a friend who's kind of disturbed. Maybe that's, maybe that's the place to start. That probably is. She has a friend who is kind of disturbed. She, she was a writer or something for the paper, she got laid off four or five years ago. She's been working at the grocery store since then. You know, so she's really in distress, and she has been for a while. And she's kind of whether she was already, has turned, she's I think in her early 50's or something. She's turned into a cat lady. Cat's and rat's and you know, all kinds of things. You know, whatever. She's weird, and she has, she has some trouble controlling I think her emotions which is understandable. [00:11:00]

She's really, she's really in a shitty situation. (sigh) She's an intelligent person. But she's been proletarianized. Anyway, so I've very sympathetic to that. And I think that among other things, she feels really kind of, she has been, you know, she doesn't have a partner. And I think she's been treated badly by men, most recently her upstairs neighbor in her condo, which I guess she owns. And can't get rid of easily, who, at first I thought was complete and utter bullshit. But after the story I'm about to tell you, I'm not totally sure anymore. She got a restraining order, against her, because she said that she attacked him. Or was wielding some kind of, I can't remember exactly what the story was. He went to a judge and the judge just handed out a one year restraining order against her, which meant that she could be arrested if kind of, she looked at him cross-wise. [00:12:26] This guy's right up stairs from her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I mean, like this horrifying, horrible situation. Almost certainly, you know, a really kind of gross, a gross thing to do, and a gross thing for the legal system to ratify. Because she's, she's, whatever. She probably did you know, I, I, I'm more sympathetic to the idea now that she may have blown up at him. But come on, I'm mean, she's like this tall. [00:12:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Anyway, so Jennie had her over for dinner, and I think originally the plan had been for me to be out of town but, she did it on the last, and I said no, I'm over so I came back. And we were preparing

THERAPIST: The plan had been for you to be -

CLIENT: I think the intention had been, when she made this arrangement that I wouldn't be there, it would just be the two of them.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: But you know, with all this shit with the, the project, I'm, I'm divesting myself of it. Essentially make Phil do what he hadn't, done for months and months and months, which was to go there and deal with it. (pause) So she came over, and I come home and Jennie had been in a weird mood. We didn't know quite how weird a mood it was, until yesterday when we discovered that she left the keys in the ignition of the car and locked them inside. And you know, left the radio going, so, I had to call AAA and get them to jump it. Any way, I came home and was in an okay mood I guess. Just feeling stressed and feeling, just really wanting this bullshit, that part is about to be over. [00:14:39]

And I came home, and I can't remember exactly what conversation was. She initiated, we were interacting normally, and it was fine. Sweet, she was kind of disconnected. She started cooking, I said, you know I came home two hours before dinner, and I said, I'll clean, cook, whatever. And she said, Well I started cooking, and she was trying to work, and (pause) so she initiated some conversation about something abstract, I can't remember what it was. And I was trying to interact with her, and this has been something recurring that has been very frustrating for me. Which is that, you know, on the one hand, I don't really have work at this point, like work. And, and this is a source of anguish to me. You know, I mean, you know, I went to the trouble of finishing this doctorate, which for an income perspective is probably an important thing. But, you know, I, I, I would say that the fact that I've decided not to got the adjunct route and you know, see if I can make that happen in the direction of a tenure track job. Was you know, substantially out of a sense that, especially when Jennie was still an adjunct before she'd gotten hired, two of those in one household is not going to work. [00:16:19]

You know, that is definitely clear. I made that decision, and essentially you know, threw up the possibility of and academic track for that reason. You know the precise timing is complicated, and I was really in distress, you know, two summers ago. So, I don't want to oversell that, but I think it's clear to me, that, the calculation with university, the calculation on various fronts was that I needed income. You know, we needed income. But what that's meant is, that I really just don't have a place, and you know, the fact that the thing with Phil turned out to be such a Chimora (sp) has meant that ever since that became clear, which was summer basically. I've just had no, I've had no intellectual home. And, that's something that's very important to me. [00:17:21]

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: So you know, I've kind of grasped for it. But Jennie is incredibly, dogmatic doesn't begin to describe it. She's, she's so invested in her (sigh) I don't know, I'm failing to describe it because I'm angry, which is the point of the story. But anyway, so we had a conversation and she had some kind of construct. And I said, yeah that's kind of like this. And she's like, No it's not! Or not so sharply, she said, No, no it's not the same thing at all, and just stopped the conversation.[00:18:12] And I said okay fine, I'm leaving, or not I'm leaving but whatever, you can And she said, yeah, I really need to be alone right now, and I'm not describing the affect very well, although that may be an accurate rendition of the way that, you know, the kind of substance of the interaction. And I just went into the other room and she came in and she said she was sorry, she just couldn't interact anymore. Which I think, you know, sounded reasonable to me I guess. But I was, upset, and I was pissed off. And this was you know, one in a very long series of interactions where I had tried to engage with her intellectually, and she's just been dismissive and rejecting. And, I don't know, I mean, I'm in distress about this. On many levels. You know, on the one hand, I haven't had an intellectual home and that's a cause of anguish for me. On the other hand, you know, I don't have a professional home. And it's just, I was so angry. It just made me so angry,(voice shakes) how grossly insensitive she's been in a serial way. [00:19:32]

To these, what feel like overtures of mine.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And she, you know we've had arguments, debates, where, I've tried to you know, in response to something that she's said about, you know her family, about this, about that. I've tried to say, well it sounds like this or this is, you know what I think about that. And she's said, No, no, you're kind of trying to appropriate the net, you know, my narrative. I'm not, I'm not describing it well. I'm, she's gotten upset, I guess is the bottom line. And I've you know, tried to understand why she's gotten upset, and she, she's said, No, you're being too aggressive about, you know, we've talked about this I think. [00:20:19]

THERAPIST: Maybe not,

CLIENT: You know, it's been upsetting to her that, when she's asked me a question about so and so, and I've said, Well, that sounds like so and so, is why I brought up so and so. She said, Well, she said, No, you know, why. She's gotten upset. It's been upsetting to her.

THERAPIST: Right like you're trying to help and to be understanding, and she, shuts you down in this sort of critical, dismissive, rejecting sort of way.

CLIENT: Right. (voice shakes) So, um, and it makes, and I feel doubly furious about this because, on the one hand, I mean she puts me in this just grotesque bind. Where, you know, if, if I kind of assert, you know the integrity. Integrity isn't quite the right word. You know if, if, I kind of, you know push the engaging, then you know, she gets very upset and sometimes she'll bring this kind of bullshit, half baked feminist crap in there. And say, Oh, you know, you're, you're, it's male privilege, and you're whatever. And then sometimes she'll kind of goad me and say, you're not even in, even in circumstances like where it's not even about, it's not even appropriate for me to be making the decision for the household. Like when we were buying the car. I said, (scoff) We went, and we looked at a bunch of used cars, we kind of, we, we decided on the make and model that we wanted. We looked at a bunch of them, we saw this one, you know at the dealership. And mechanically, it seemed to check out, but it smelled. The previous owner had been a smoker. [00:22:42]

And I said, you know, you don't, you are going to be driving this alone, are you sure you want to do it? I'm like, I was very reluctant. I kept on, you know I asked them, do you think you could to it, do, I asked the salesman, can you do such and such. I said, to Jennie, I'm really you know, the main thing that I'm worried about is the smell.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, maybe we can get rid of it. But I think you are going to be driving it. She's the principle driver, commuting in every day, are you sure. And she said, Yeah, yeah, I think it will be okay. I said, are you sure. I said are you sure that you need to get it now? [00:23:16]

You know, basically the trade off is, having a car when the semester starts, versus, you know, this

THERAPIST: (crosstalking)

CLIENT: And she said yeah, yeah. She said yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. So I you know kind of negotiated with them to, to have them do an extra treatment, and extra kind of deodorization.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So fine. So, for the last three months or whatever, she's been constantly complaining about the smell. First it was the, the deodorant. She hated the smell of the deodorant, it was extremely strong. Basically I kind of tried to nuke the smell of the smoke with the deodorant. I knew it was that it was at some level covering it up. So finally the smell of the deodorant, this artificial smell of the deodorant faded. And what was left was, when it's very hot, and you know, when the air is coming through the vent, the smell of smoke. And she, you know has been complaining about the smell of smoke. And finally I turned to her, I said, You know, the, you know, the, maybe I didn't put it in the most compassionate possible way. But I said, I don't want to hear about it anymore. [00:23:16]

I don't want to hear it anymore. You made this decision. Or something like that. Maybe I didn't say you made this decision. In fact I didn't. I said, I don't want to hear it anymore, you know, like the penance for having you know, made the call on whether or not you could stand the smoke. It's just not to talk about it all the time. It makes me feel shitty. [00:25:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So, she got upset, and you know whatever. We resolved it. I'm not sure if we resolved it or not, clearly we didn't because, you know, we were going over to a friends house, and we're parking and she's driving, (pause) (sighs) She's driving, and you know it's hard to find parking, and there's one parking spot close to her friends house, to our friends house. And, there's not much room, and I get out to kind of scope it, and I said, no, you know, like you're sticking out enough that if they have a truck, you can't really do it. And she said, kind of blows up at me, and she says, Why don't you just fucking make a decision. I said, I did, I told you. So I'm getting really mad, and I get back in the car. And she said, Why don't you fucking make a decision, you know like there's some kind of defect in my masculine ability to, you know assert my will in a situation. Just totally, it's totally bullshit for one thing (bangs table). I've made numerous decisions. In fact I've made decisions that you know really were, for me at least, a considerable sacrifice. You know, for the benefit of our household. That's what I was feeling. So I got back in the car. We went on looking for and I said, I don't remember exactly what happened next. But I said something like, Oh, there's a spot, and she said something like, I already said there was a spot, I already saw that there was a spot, or God knows what.[00:27:10]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I just blew up, I said, okay, go by yourself.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I got out and slammed the door. And I walked around the block for a little while. And, (pause) I gave it about 5 minutes, 10 minutes, and then I went in to the friend's house. And it was fine, I mean, we kind of reconciled, etc. But I was really mad about this. I was really mad about putting, being put in a double bind. It instantly felt like a double bind. On the one hand, you know, she's constantly giving me shit about, you know, male privilege, and on the other hand, she's like making these completely grotesque, you know, unreasonable, and in the end, bad faith, I don't quite know how to put this, you know, appeals to you know, my need to assert some kind of traditional male role. [00:28:25]

And she's the only one who drives the fucking car. I ride my bicycle to work. You know, my life in regards to the car, is more or less unchanged. So I feel angry and resentful, (banging) and just, pissed off about this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, I feel like, not only, you know, have I made just this dramatic sacrifice and commitment that is not being acknowledged, but, it's not being acknowledged. And she's putting me in a difficult situation over it. (sigh) And she's not acknowledging her role in it. So April came over, I feel like there's no time for a story in our therapeutic hour. April came over, and we get into conversation. They were talking about cats and stuff, and I wasn't, I mean, you know, whatever. Talking about cats in, April's really weird. I mean at some point she started talking about cat's vomiting. You know as we are sitting there eating dinner. So, finally, I was just like, I wanted to change the subject, and we started talking about intellectual property. Now, intellectual property is something I have been, I've had an academic interest in, and have done a fair amount of study about in relation to, you know, sort of the origins to the pharmaceutical IP regime. And I am very interested in this. And you know, April had very strong ideas about it, and I don't know, I mean, I probably, I think it's almost certainly true that because I feel, this anguish,[00:30:42]

Abecause I feel this anguish about the loss of my kind of sense of an intellectual home. Bbecause I find, I feel, uncertain, uncomfortable, with the way that Jennie and I have been interacting. Like I don't feel as if I have a partner, in this domain. I feel as if when she has something that she wants to ask me, that she wants to run by me, I'm very, you know, I feel like I make myself available, to kind of bounce things off of. And she hasn't been, she hasn't been considerate of my need to do the same.

THERAPIST: And for like, provided a home for you and

CLIENT: No, I mean or even been sensitive at all to my need to you know, to my desire and need for this. Sensitive to you know, what is clearly, you know, I feel some anguish about this and not only has she been angry angry, I don't know where that came from. Not only has she been dismissive, and not only has she mad me the, you know, kind of avatar of, you know her resentment about being in a male dominated discipline, which she chose. [00:32:12]

But she hasn't, you know, she hasn't, been welcoming to me. And you know, helped me to interact in the state of partnership. I mean she calls it dogmatic, but it's not really dogmatic, it's pissy. It's you know, it's unkind. I'm exaggerating. I feel the need to say that I'm exaggerating. But I'm angry about this. And so, April started talking, and she didn't quite, it's like we weren't quite connecting in the sense that you know, I wanted to talk about something and she wanted to talk about something else. And then Jennie just intervened on April's behalf. And started, you know like doing this vindictive thing, where she, you know says, Oh you know, you actually mean this, or what have you. And I just got mad. And you know, as I think we've discovered at times, when I'm upset about something, there is definitely an element of not quite, you know, I become very abstract. You know, and I'm not quite connecting. And, so the, the -

THERAPIST: I think you lose faith that, the other person will be able to, appear to take in what you are saying when you become angrier.

CLIENT: So I just became angrier, and angrier, and angrier, and I was angry at Jennie. So on the one hand, I'm interacting with April. But on the other hand, like the energy of the conversation, you know, came from my, my, just -

THERAPIST: Rage.

CLIENT: Rage at Jennie. And she, and I think she even said something about male priv no maybe it was afterwards. But you know, it was clear to me that's where this was coming from. She was like defending this woman who was being brow beaten. Who I was brow beating. And April was angry, because April gets angry. So, whatever, it's not, it was not like out of control conversation, but I was really sweating.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I noticed that I was sweating. I was really, I was really pissed. And I was pissed about other things because I actually had something to contribute to this conversation. Like, I spent, you know, months in four languages, studying how this phenomena came to exist. And what the implications might be, for you know, how we understand, how and why, and by what mechanism we pay for music. How and why, and by what process people engage in creative activity. It's and interesting topic of conversation. It's one I'm interested in. It's one that I've, you know spent, actually spent a lot of time in writing different [00:35:14]

THERAPIST: So like you feel you've got (inaudible) somewhere. But I mean like -

CLIENT: And Jennie, I mean, Jennie's contribution to this conversation was just so destructive, and dismissive. And I used the word dismissive deliberately. Because finally, you know we wound the conversation down, we said something like, Alright, we'll just agree to disagree, in a way that I felt was incredibly annoying and condescending and just obnoxious. And we talked about something else, it was fine. And then, you know Jennie, said something about her students, and how they are disadvantaged, and that's difficult. And she, she feels bad for them. Which is true. And I said something like, Well, sometimes you are a little okay, I said something, which frankly, although this is neither here nor there, it's kind of true. I said, well sometimes you are more, a little more dismissive. [00:36:30] And, I, there was probably and edge to that,

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: To the way that I said it.

THERAPIST: I can't imagine why.

CLIENT: It's obvious why (raises voice).

THERAPIST: I'm, I'm -

CLIENT: No, no, no I'm not, it is obvious why I said that the way that I did.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I had previously said it in discussion you know, after the couple's therapist. You know, that I feel like you treat me like your students. I've said this several times, it was like an extended conversation about it.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And, so April said, what do you mean, that's mean what you are saying. And she kind of jumped in on, you know on Jennie's side, in a way that is decisive and splitting and like I know why she behaves like that. And then, there's like this big row about it. And I was just, you know, Jennie is over here, and April is over here. And I was just kind of ignoring April, because you know, the real conversation is between me and Jennie. And it was obvious and anybody who was not disturbed would see that. Then suddenly, in the middle of this, you know, and it wasn't like shouting. You know, Jennie was kind of defending herself, and I was saying, It's not about defending, I just, you know, I tried, I was trying to, redirect what had been a kind of expression of my anger on this completely unrelated subject. That had just kind of come out, without my intending for it to happen. In to, you know a discussion, I just, I said something like, Well, you know what I really meant was that, you know, it's, that they're not all I can't remember exactly. Then all of the sudden, April freaked out. [00:38:18]

And she just started, she just got up and then in the middle of the conversation and said, He's not even looking at me. You know, He's completely ignoring me. And she just walked out of the apartment and then that was it. I'm not going to stick around here while I'm disrespected, etc. So it was like a perfect storm. And then, you know, I came back, or you knowJennie tried to placate her, and she wasn't going to be placated, and she walked out the door. And it was this gigantic catastrophe. Jennie came back and she said, Whatever, you know, she acknowledged that it, this was a freak out, etc. And she said, she was really right. You were wrong to say that I was dismissive. And at that moment, I didn't see what was obvious. You know, what was obvious in the way that I'm relating this story. [00:39:10]

THERAPIST: But you were related then.

CLIENT: But, I was, I was just so angry and -

THERAPIST: Disorganized, yeah.

CLIENT: I was, I was incensed, I was disorganized, and I feel some remorse. I felt remorse because I hurt April. Who is a vulnerable, and you know, a troubled person. Which was not my intention. I felt remorse because I had made, you know Jennie said, This is my work, I'm committed to it, you know. Whatever, it is true that she sometimes is dismissive of her students. I mean who wouldn't be. I mean she's spending 5 days a week making this incredibly crazy schedule where she has to teach all the time and commute to day. And there just aren't enough hours in the day. And I have been sympathetic and loving and just, and this was definitely something not to bring up, certainly in that way. Certainly in public. So I felt remorse about that.[00:40:15]

But I was just angry, I was still angry. And I was trying to kind of juggle this sense of remorse, and having -

THERAPIST: Sure. (inaudible)

CLIENT: You know, somewhat, somewhat inappropriately. Like with April, I freaked out. You know we probably would have worked it out in that situation. But I don't know how many times I can, you know, this is like something at the core of my being. It's not, it's not minor, and I can't even talk about it with Jennie. (pause) (Sigh) So I was just, on the one hand I was remorseful, and on the other I was angry. And I just feel disorganized by that this morning I guess. And yesterday was hard, and we interacted a bit. And you know, it was difficult. And then I came home, and she -

THERAPIST: Oh clearly, you're talking about Jennie's being dismissive to you. But you're feeling that way I think everywhere.

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: I mean particularly with, I guess also, with work.

CLIENT: No I feel -

THERAPIST: Where you have nothing to contribute.

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: No sort of value in hours that you've worked hard to, accumulate. Has a feel like a (inaudible) no price.

CLIENT: (whispers) That's right. And I feel like I put myself in a situation at work that I could have predicted, that I had predicted, that I had avoided, specifically for this reason. In order to help sustain our household. And, you know, this product of this morning's sort of commiseration, and you know, I mean, we're, we're working on it. [00:40:15]

It was that, we're just treading water fiscally. You have the, therapeutic hour is up look on your face.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I don't know, I don't know what the conclusion to all of this is, but I feel disorganized by it.

THERAPIST: Well my impression is that, there's this kind of vicious cycle, where the angrier you get, the more you are sure you are not going to be listened to or taken seriously. That you are kind of be, reacted to, criticized, dismissed earlier. I think. And it just gets so frustrating, it's hard to put your thoughts together. [00:43:34] (pause) Like, and when its just sort of, I feel like the more you need to put it out there, the more likely you are not going to, and just be dismissed again. Which is the thing you are mad about in the first place. (pause from [00:43:54] to [00:44:24]) We should stop.

CLIENT: (whispers) Yeah. Okay. (sigh) (pause from [00:44:37] to [00:44:56]) (loud noise) Right. (loud noise) See you Friday.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

END TRANSCRIPT