TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I've been debating whether to go [inaudible] style on this.

THERAPIST: Oh God. Yeah.

CLIENT: But I have one more system I will try first if that doesn't work.

THERAPIST: Okay. It's awful. It's awful. When... Yeah... I don't know. There's no apathetic way of debating the idiosyncrasies of our healthcare system but it's pretty bad. So let me know.

CLIENT: Yeah. So let's see. So we're working in New York I think I spoke to you it must have been Friday morning, and I had spoken to Jack just the evening before so I was sort of frustrated. But I revised my job description to include lying about renewal and the Chief of Staff just bought it. So it doesn't really commit them to anything in some sense, but we'll see how it goes. [00:01:44]

So for the first time really ever I'm kind of systematically while I have a job applying for a jobs. I had a long talk with Phil on Tuesday I guess. No, today's Wednesday so I guess Monday. And as far as he's concerned we have a kind of understanding in terms of me staying on in a relatively limited capacity for that time and using the salary differential to hire an assistant. So we'll see if (pause) the HR people go for it. I mean basically it takes all of my salary off of unrestricted funding source and puts it entirely on the grant so they have no reason to complain. We'll see how that goes. Beyond that (pause) there's nothing else. [00:03:19]

And I guess there are two things that I have been (pause) thinking about, wondering over. One of them is just this idea of looking for a job which is not something that I've ever really done or had to do. I mean I guess I have. I've applied for things and (pause) historically I've... Let's see. I've never really known how to go about it. How to go about saying this. This is reasonable. This is what I want to do. [00:04:12]

And then I guess the other thing has to do with interactions with people at work. The work environment is so troubled by the fact that basically they have no program, and therefore to the extent that I have anybody to interact and work with is completely at my own initiative to the degree that in the last few months, at least, I just haven't wanted to initiate. I mean it's like A, likely I'm leaving so the project will be done half way through the... You know. I feel like despite my explication (pause) that if Phil wanted an assistant he had to go elsewhere for an assistant I feel like I've kind of been cast in that role, and I'm decidedly not happy about it. [00:05:39]

But the other thing... I mean there are also things beyond that functionality that I could have initiated that I didn't and I guess that's where the interesting part is. And also I was sort of talking absently with Jennie about this, this morning in a very casual and off hand way. But you know when I'm feeling stressed I get very (pause) withdrawn, I guess, is the best way to put it in the way that I think translates; standoffishness, you know non-responsiveness. [00:06:21]

There's a sort of feedback loop between this sense of withdrawal and Jennie connected it in a way that was interesting I'm not sure to what extent it's valid with this habit I have that I think you've noticed at times also particularly when I'm feeling stressed or anxious of not providing essential information. You know it's a problem of the philosophy of mind or something where I just don't have a model of the other. I kind of project my state of knowledge, and background, and understanding on the other person without consulting or considering exactly what they might need in order to engage in a conversation. [00:07:16]

My clear sense is that it's a function of a heightened state of stress. When there are stressors this is much more pronounced. And when I'm not stressed I think generally speaking conversations are pretty good. Although sometimes I suppose I tend to (inaudible at 00:07:43) which makes our interactions perfect really if you think about it.

THERAPIST: (Laughter) Everybody wins.

CLIENT: Everybody wins. Right. (inaudible at 00:07:55). So I associate this...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:08:03) hearing something from the insurance company? [00:08:04]

CLIENT: Yeah. Right. Exactly. Maybe they are having a similar problem as I am. It's their philosophy of mind that's presenting them from sending the OP's. So Jennie made this association and I'm not sure. Maybe there's something there. I'm not sure. I'm just sort of passing this along. But at any rate its definitely true that under similar conditions when I feel stressed and what I felt stressed about at work kind of the level that rises to consciousness has been A, not having a place, B, not having people to interact with, C, having this uncertainty about my career, I guess, you could put it and specifically the kind of bureaucratic organizational aspects of this interaction that we see for... I think I have some letters to numbers. So D, (pause) pursuing and getting a lucrative gig at the bank while I'm drawing a salary from this struggling non-profit. E, I guess, having things that I committed to doing but that have been in the offer for me to do that I'm not going to do. I'm not going to do... There were projects that I talked about with various people, and I'm not going to do them for a variety of reasons. But one of them is that you know I'm not there full time anymore. But again the complexity is that through December I'm drawing .75 percent salary. [00:10:17]

So on the one hand I rationalize of these three to four things there is a degree to which I feel I'm able to rationalize them and there's a degree to which I feel some guilt, or culpability, or I'm unable to rationalize them. Somewhere in between those two I feel a kind of alienation or stress. I feel kind of stressed is the best way of putting it. And that stress... I may not be communicating right now. I'm trying. That stress somehow interposes itself between me and other people in casual interactions. [00:11:12]

Now the really stressful thing I think at the end of the day and something that is objectively the case and needs no rationalization this is not something that I really had a lot to do with is the fact that functionally speaking we don't have a program and thus I kind of had nobody to interact with on a regular basis. And so when I see people from HR who are in the offices and cubicles immediately adjoining me I'm not going in there regularly at this point. It's such a relief. It has been such a relief in the last two days to be working on this other project because it's like I'm back in graduate school or something. I go to the library and work in the Reading Room. Oh God. It's such a relief to be actually working like actually working on something. [00:12:03]

THERAPIST: You have a project from...

CLIENT: No. From the contract that we... The job description from New York. It's such a relief. It's like it's something to think about. It's like something to work on that you can strategize about, etcetera. And I go there and I actually work. I'm like wow so this is life.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: So the stressor creates a kind of feedback loop because the more disconnected I am the rarer my appearances. The more kind of below my affect the less responsiveness people are and the more disconnected I feel. I don't know. I mean it's just... Now the rationalization comes back. It's just such a shitty situation. It's like I'm not quite sure how one might navigate it. [00:13:00]

And we'll see if this interaction's a big deal because it's HR itself that has to approve this new regime. And in theory they have nothing to object to. It's like objectively a good solution for the program. A program assistant should be helping Phil. If Phil can't do it with a program assistant then he can't do it at all which is my suspicion.

So I guess that's number two. Number one is sort of the psychic intricacies of the job search and why it's been so difficult and what exactly is going on. Number two is this very, very recurring, and strong, and damaging, I think, dynamic of my disconnection in a situation that's objectively difficult and yet would probably be better served by more connection than less. [00:14:09]

THERAPIST: It's almost like these are two sides of the same coin the dynamic Jennie describes and that disconnection that you're describing where on one side the other person's kind of in your head a little bit and can you know...

CLIENT: Or vice versa. My head is in the other persons or it's projecting to the others.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I see what you're saying.

THERAPIST: Yeah. They sort of...

CLIENT: My perception is...

THERAPIST: Yeah. And on the other side they don't know you at all. They have no place for you. [00:15:08]

CLIENT: Right. Wait I lost object definition here. What's the other side?

THERAPIST: The sort of disconnected version. So in the sort of magically connected version...

CLIENT: Oh I see. So you're agreeing with Jennie? You see this relationship too? You see a kind of (inaudible at 00:15:30) there as well.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm trying to put together these two things.

CLIENT: You think that's possible?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean they both point to in a way the best word like kind of a magical relating to the other person. On one side in which they kind of know more than they realistically would about your mind, the context, what you're thinking, where you're coming from. So you kind of feel that, I think, quite strongly in a way that without really realizing it leads you to provide sort of a less detailed description that at another level you know they would need to really get where you're coming from. [00:16:31]

And on the other side the other part... You know one side of the coin is. The other side of the coin is they don't know you at all and have no place for you and are thousands of miles away and have no idea what you're feeling, or thinking, or what's going on with you. And I guess those seem like kind of similarly magical ways of relating or models of (pause) where the other person's coming from. So it's the kind of... [00:17:19]

CLIENT: Why is the second magical?

THERAPIST: Well I guess you could say distorted.

CLIENT: What's the distortion?

THERAPIST: Well that they've forgotten about you altogether. That you're not in their mind at all. That they have no idea where you're coming from or where you are. You know like Phil says he's leaving and it's like a huge tremendous rift opens up as you feel it.

CLIENT: Yeah there's some of that. [00:18:04]

THERAPIST: One way I know that or what makes you think that is often It's happened most with Phil over the course of our meetings so it's easy for me to point to that as an example but there are others. You know often after you have a long conversation and you're feeling that way things are better when you realize that he's not a thousand miles away. He's off in some world or whatever, but he's not forgotten about me altogether. It's not as though there's nothing there or he has no interest in my well being. It comes as a bit of a relief and even a revelation that he's there more than it felt like.

CLIENT: So I guess what I'm struggling to not struggling. I see where this goes. I see the connection you're drawing, but I'm laboring a little bit to understand the connection between that kind of interaction with Phil with somebody that you're with a fair amount and the kind of alienated disconnected interactions with people that I don't know very well at all but see casually from time to time at work. [00:19:38]

THERAPIST: Well I would imagine that relates to kind of personifying institutional a little bit feeling like you had no place there and so you're kind of a refugee or alien. I mean to a degree... For one thing I imagine that don't see you as being... I mean there's kind of a...

CLIENT: I don't know at this point. I mean it's like I've been very noncommunicative and people have been noncommunicative back recently. I'm just not in there very much so maybe they wonder what's going on, etcetera, which is fine. They don't know what the details are. Presumably they're less mystifying. And when I am there I'm very stressed out. I feel very distressed. [00:20:32]

But your formulation is that no matter how disconnected I feel they are likely, in fact, they are less and are just kind of struggling through a way to relate to me given that my (inaudible at 00:20:50) is so low. It sounds plausible. So I mean I think with both of these little morsels how now brown cow is kind of the phrase that comes to mind. It's like what's...

THERAPIST: The what? [00:21:18]

CLIENT: Well yeah. I mean you know here are two examples of what seems like in some sense, at least, be a kind unitary phenomenon. The job search, I think, is a kind of proactive formulation along the lines of sense of disconnection, and alienation, and unresponsiveness, what have you, that I've seen at work.

So I, at least, see a plausible model that describes them as homologous. So I mean these is a theme that comes out almost every time we talk right? I can even see a kind of plausible hypothetical developmental model. It actually doesn't seem that mysterious. So the question is what other than talking... I don't know how to approach it. Let me frame it a little bit different. [00:22:27]

THERAPIST: So how do I make this better?

CLIENT: Well I mean I know you're party line is generally that you just talk about it and that's how it gets better and I can see the logic in that. Just more practically from the standpoint of our conversations there is this thing I've noticed this thing. I've noticed these two things and I noticed they're kind of related to each other. So what do we talk about now? I want to intervene. I feel like is really troublesome. This is something a dynamic that's coming up again, and again, and again, and I don't like it. It makes me feel lousy. In a material sense it makes things difficult for me, and for my household, and for the people that I know, so on and so forth, and I'd like it to not be the case anymore. [00:23:21]

Now in our conversation what happens next? And I think this is a juncture that we come to reasonably often. I imagine I'm not the only one who comes to this junction reasonably often with you. But at the very least I don't know what to do with it afterwards. I mean in the past you've said something like yeah you have this kind of practice of giving me a package, and dropping it on my lap, and saying okay now you deal with it. I don't think that's what I'm doing. But what here we're talking about it. What comes next? [00:24:07]

It's very clear to me what the problem for discussion is. It's pretty clear to me what the problematic is in other words what the way of understanding it is. What I don't see is what to say about it afterwards (pause) without relying on you.

THERAPIST: Well I have two thoughts (pause) that actually don't come together. The first is it seems like there is a way you feel... I guess my thinking is that it makes you feel kind of stuck. I'm not quite sure what the right (pause) metaphor is. Whether you feel like I said okay here's a hammer and a screwdriver, and you're kind of like okay where are the nails and screws? I don't really see where I'm supposed to go with this. [00:25:13]

There's like that or there seems to be some element of feeling like we've been at just this place before which it seems to me there's something a little bit new. It struck me as new which is one of the reasons I said it. What I was saying is we're kind of relating the very familiar dynamic of you're feeling kind of abandoned, and alienated, and shut down, and so forth, which we've talk about a lot, to the dynamic that Jennie was talking about, which we've talk about a little bit. It seems to me you sort of put those together. I think to me that was new. I don't know. It may be interesting to (inaudible at 00:26:10) like that. But I guess I'm a little unsure. [00:26:26]

I'm not quite sure where you're coming from in what you're saying. I hear it, and I'm trying to get it, but I don't quite understand the situation you find yourself in. Like you're saying it's not that I said something sort of dropped a problem in your lap but not said anything about how we can fix it. You're saying that's not so much the issue, but I'm not sure I get it. It seems like a little bit like you feel kind of mildly shut down or nothing occurs to you. I don't know. [00:27:00]

CLIENT: Well so here's what I'm feeling at this particular moment. You said something about that being an interesting connection and you want to talk about it more.

THERAPIST: I thought it was interesting.

CLIENT: No, no, no. I think that was what I was hearing from you. And from my point of view like my interest in this conversation are purely instrumental. So I feel like at this moment I'm not saying this in a global sense I don't think it's true in a global sense but the energy that I'm feeling or whatever is that you're interested and wanting to explore something further and I'm like this is really painful. This is really difficult. These are two things that are totally kicking my ass at this moment. And sure I'm interested but I'm interested in some kind of intervention. I'm not really interested in understanding the dynamics better. [00:28:07]

THERAPIST: It sounds kind of like (pause) a bit clinical and scientific for me in a way. Like oh this is curious. I'm exaggerating it now. But you're struggling and suffering with this stuff and I'm saying well isn't that an interesting pattern or connection, or a sort of curious aspect of the thing you're struggling with in this sort of removed maybe intellectually engaged but not sensitively engaged in that.

CLIENT: I'm not sure. I think that level of critic probably exceeds what was on my mind. I guess what was on my mind was well this was a kind of an interesting connection that Jennie made. It sounds like it might be plausible. But I'm narrating here. Who gives a shit? Like that's not the most urgent thing that presents itself to me. What presents itself to me as urgent are these phenomenon. I'm not sure how interested I am at this particular juncture in figuring out whether it relates to my tendency to lose the thread or relationship between me and my model of the mind or the other. [00:29:38]

I see the point. It's not that I don't get the point, and I can see how that's an interesting subject for analysis. But in terms of what seems to be urgent I just feel motivated right now by these two things which are causing me enormous amount of stress at the moment. I mean it's just and they relate to each other. They're related to each other. They kind of interact with each other this worry about finding a permanent home professionally and this difficulty in interacting with people in my immediate environment in so far as and for as long as I know I have to associate with them. [00:30:24].

THERAPIST: Well (pause)... Well let me try a straight answer. To me what seems like not necessary but central about this point is that... I think the sort of two sides that I'm running into I think that captures those primitive aspects of how you relate to other people that causes you so much grief. I mean that's it. [00:31:47]

(Pause) And the (pause) I guess the big question to me that that raises is like well what the hell is going on with that? I mean it's quite... [00:33:03]

Maybe that's part of it that I have in mind but I'm not making sense with it is (pause) it's so striking. I mean you and I have both had moments where we've been dramatically struck, I think, by (pause) let's say your capacity to forget things that have happened or you feel disconnected from things that have happened. I mean there are moments where you've said have we talked about that, and I'm like yeah we talked about that like 50 times. Or where you'll have no idea of something that's happened just recently, or where we'll realize that this comment Phil makes of leaving in July or something totally shuts you down for months. [00:34:11]

And that was not the only thing I know, but it's quite dramatic the extent to which these things effect how you feel, effect how you think, effect what you can do. And I imagine that this sort of magical sense of connection can be equally powerful. Maybe what we're in the presence of now is (pause) maybe you have a fantasy that (pause) if I get it (pause) there's some way I should be able to help that's sort of direct and instrumental. [00:35:26]

CLIENT: If you get it. If you get what?

THERAPIST: Let me sort of...

CLIENT: I'm not sure I set up today's discussion as a conditional.

THERAPIST: Let me sort of collaborate a little bit. Well let's think about what happened. So you're at home and you're telling Jennie a story about something at work or something that happened, and you're telling her 20 percent of what she probably needs to know.

CLIENT: It happens all the time. It's like who is that person?

THERAPIST: (Chuckles) Right. You're like you're going through warranties and telling her every fifth page or something like.

CLIENT: I'm not enjoying this.

THERAPIST: And she's like huh. But for you you're having the sort of experience of telling her what's going on. And I guess a feeling of... Well it's almost like you're sort of feeling very understood or feeling like she's really right there with you with what's happening so that you only have to tell her a little bit for her to get the whole story. Like she's kind of in your head or I guess as you said you're kind of in her head. [00:36:54]

CLIENT: It's not quite like that. It's not quite like that as I think about it. As you're describing this I'm comparing it with my recollection of what's going on. It is kind of like she disappears and that's what is upsetting to her. It's like what I have left is what's in my head and my attempt to encompass, or come to terms with it, or understand this structure, this neural phenomenon, and it's almost like I forget that she's there. Not really. Not like in any real sense. [00:37:35]

As I'm trying to recall these things it's not a kind of interaction between the model of her and these events. It's more just the effort or struggle to recall any of these events...

THERAPIST: I think there is a model of her there and I've been there with you; not as often as she has but...

CLIENT: You can testify to this.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think I see the point of like there's some way in which you say hey I'm over here. I need all the words and the whole cast of characters where there is a sense of being forgotten about. [00:38:08]

CLIENT: I feel a demand. I feel a stress of presenting something to her. And in that state of heightened awareness or whatever all of the focus turns to something that is outside. I'm not being very articulate about this. I feel very stressed about my abilities to deliver this in part because such delivery is often difficult for me. And in that state it's like what her reasonable expectations for information might be are kind of lost.

THERAPIST: I mean what I picture... This doesn't do you justice but I think if I could (inaudible at 00:38:58) like a little kid comes in from the playground at four years old and launches into mom into some story about the kid that got in front of him in line for the slide or something and gives this sort of... It's easy to imagine the kid sort of pouring it out, but in a way that's sort of true to how he feels and gives some bits and pieces of what actually happened that the mother may be able to piece together. But it's not something that's kind of oriented to what the mother would or wouldn't know about it. [00:39:40]

CLIENT: Great.

THERAPIST: I mean like I'm upset and so and so's such a jerk. I was on the slide and then he was... You kind of know there's a... You know what I mean?

CLIENT: I know why you're bringing that up. I also, as I said a moment ago, see this as probably a developmental phenomenon rather than Asperger's or something.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah. I don't think that.

CLIENT: No, no, no. I mean so... Where I don't agree is that I think what's happening is an excess of self-consciousness rather than unselfconsciousness. I mean what is notable among other things about these kinds of episodes in young children is that they're completely unselfconscious. They're just not... There's like an aspect of this relational process that they're not yet expert in. [00:40:35]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So they can't do that model. Instead what's happening...

THERAPIST: They're egocentric. It's not that they're bad.

CLIENT: No. No I mean it is egocentric, but at least the experience of this phenomenon that I have internally maybe they have a similar kind of experience. I don't know or remember. But my experience is that I'm just intensely aware of this other person in a way that interferes with my ability. In other words, the effect may be the same but somehow (inaudible at 00:41:13).

THERAPIST: I hear you.

CLIENT: The process feels very different. [00:41:16]

THERAPIST: It is not in a way that...

CLIENT: They're just spilling. They're just saying you know this is my world. This is my universe. Take it or leave it. Whereas for me, at least at this stage, it's more like oh God now I have to deliver it to this other person. And the intensity of that demand or sense of pressure interferes with the very same connectedness. I think that's right. I mean I think that's a pretty accurate description of the phenomenology. What the relationship is between these two phenomenon I just don't know.

THERAPIST: We should stop.

CLIENT: Oh. Already? I guess I was not aware of my surroundings. Okay. So Friday I guess?

THERAPIST: Friday.

CLIENT: Uh huh.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: See you then. [00:42:29]

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