TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hello. So. (sighs) (pause at 00:00:11 to 00:01:58)

THERAPIST: [Where did you want to] start today?

CLIENT: In a bad way but I guess I'm struggling for a thread to pull on.

THERAPIST: Mm. Well what -

CLIENT: Possibilities. I've been running everyday. [00:02:20]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Which is the first time in a long time and I'm running in a really good, kind of sound way. I'm ten or fifteen pounds over weight. Over sort of my optimal weight for running. (inaudible at 00:02:45) very regular. It has been it took a little while to ratchet it up to regular. It took about a month. Going out when I really couldn't motivate myself. But steady increased miles up to it was thirty last week. This week it's just been five miles everyday. [00:03:21]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And that feels really good. There is a relief there. It's easier (inaudible at 00:03:37) boxing.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) boxing?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Boxing (inaudible at 00:03:48) for a month. Just to get rid of the last few pounds. Little harder to lose weight than it used to be.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:04:07) I wouldn't want to say an inordinate amount of relief in that routine but there is a lot of comfort in that. Comfort that probably goes beyond just (inaudible) satisfaction. (inaudible at 00:04:28) I would like that level of routine in other things. I think. The routine of running is more familiar. [00:04:41]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: The routine of working I really only had (inaudible at 00:04:51) dissertation. But if I could do the same for other kinds of work I think would be (inaudible at 00:05:07) for me. I would be happy. Maybe more to the point I would be (inaudible). (inaudible) myself in a direction or another. (sighs) (pause at 00:05:27 to 00:05:42) Last time I had a (pause at 00:05:43 to 00:05:50) last week when I went out to New York there were several meetings. I would've liked to be able to work more in the hotel room, which was very nice. That was harder. [00:06:07]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Sometimes in the past I've been able to do that but sometimes I feel kind of out of place. (inaudible at 00:06:20) difficult. At any rate (pause at 00:06:23 to 00:06:29) I had a brief, and kind of funny interaction with Kevin on the way out as I was leaving. Even in a briefing the day before (inaudible at 00:06:48) about the fiscal cliff. And it's potential impact on developing countries. [00:06:57]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: And these two very senior economists. So I walk into the room after it had started. (pause at 00:07:11 to 00:07:29) And I don't know. Kevin My sense is that (pauses till 00:07:44 and sighs) how can I put this without projecting too much? That's what I'm struggling with. You know so he was pressing them about why this right wing faction in the Republican Party is being so obstreperous and (inaudible). [00:08:03]

And what's going on here? Which to some degree I guess is really beside the point in the sense that the point of the briefing was just to lay out some different scenarios for what might happen in the event that there was gridlock for awhile longer at least. But he's like, "Oh why do you think they're doing this? What's the objective here?" And the guy told him he said something like at one point, "If capital-" I can't remember exactly how he put it. If the capitalists are asking for a resolution then if they're the party of capital they why in these caricature terms. [00:08:55]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: That certainly for the way he is right now which is not usual I imagine. I can't imagine the president of this Bank is often asking people about what capitalists are up to.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:09:14) way. So like the two possibilities were either that he was having fun with them or that he was having with me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It seemed to me. So as I leaving I went out and I (inaudible at 00:09:28) interacted directly. (inaudible) the big antechamber to the office with the secretary. I wanted to say hi. (inaudible) gigantic office. And I said, "It looked like you were having fun yesterday." And he kind of was brought up short and said, "Well what do you mean?" And I said, "It just looked like you were having a good time." [00:09:59]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (laughs) And he started launching himself on this excursus about how the if you want to do anything in the world right now you just have to make concessions to capital. (inaudible at 00:10:27) And it was funny because -so I mean which I take to mean that he's genuinely conflicted about this a) gap and b) being identified with the side that he feels some defensiveness towards.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Our project was basically a critique of the Bank back in the day.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean so was the book we wrote together.

THERAPIST: Oh. I didn't know that.

CLIENT: And it was funny because what I wanted to say was that I don't care anymore. (laughs) [00:11:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't care anymore. I'm done. You know? And I agree. I agree. At the very least I'm not willing to sacrifice myself at that altar. And I was thinking about how to say that I guess at the time. At the time I didn't want plus I'm in a somewhat delicate situation obviously.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I also wanted to be to avoid that kind of controversy. (sighs) (pause at 00:11:43 to 00:11:51) I've just been thinking about it a lot. (inaudible) said at one point in the last week this is (inaudible at 00:11:59) Wednesday we saw Elizabeth. And she said at one point in our conversation that she really wouldn't want to meet my Dad because she was pretty pissed off. And I kind of joked. I said, "Yeah he's been the inspiration for many things that annoy you." (chuckling) She said, "No, no. Not that at all." [00:12:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: "I'm angry about this." She said. I said, "Well you know I guess I'm not angry actively anymore. Although God knows I have been in the past." So somehow in between those two conversations has the things that come to mind are somewhere in between those two poles.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm struggling to find a routine for work. And I think that that's a genuine struggle. All this. This whole life has among other things wreaked havoc on my discipline or however you want to think about it. My sense of routine. Let's put it that way. (inaudible at 00:13:38) The process of working is troubled. I don't feel any confusion. I don't think. Contrary to what's clearly kind of Kevin's construction about why (inaudible). [00:13:50]

THERAPIST: Right. That feels projected?

CLIENT: That projection. I don't feel any conflict about this. I'll go in whatever direction right now that I can find satisfaction. And good work on the one hand but stability on the other. Those are because those are both important. And I don't want to be actively you know we were -. Christmas Day. All kinds of people I mean disabled vets are on the road with signs.

And people with flowers. Like this freezing cold day with snow coming down. And I mean it's kind of moving and horrifying. And it reminded me that it's not like I want to do anything. It's not like I want stability at all costs. It's not that I'm saying that I guess I don't care what work I do as long as we have some security. But I don't want that security took me twenty years to kind of arrive at that place. So I'm clear on that. I'm not conflicted about that anymore. I'm sure I have been at times. [00:15:22]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Or at least that's been an excuse that I could readily grasp for when work was troublesome. But I'm not angry at my father. And I'm not conflicted about work. I'm just trying to find a way to run five miles everyday.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:15:49) (pause till 00:16:21)

THERAPIST: Well I think (inaudible at 00:16:23) what you're saying is that sort of Kevin and Elizabeth in a way sort of bring up feelings in relation to your father that you kind of let go of or don't have anymore in the same way. The sort of guilt of not sacrificing yourself on the altar of the cause in Kevin's case. And the sort of anger towards your father protective of yourself. [00:17:07]

CLIENT: And protecting your (inaudible at 00:17:09).

THERAPIST: (inaudible) And (pause at 00:17:17 to 00:17:27) yeah you just as soon kind of get out and run at your steady pace.

CLIENT: That's what I've imagined or fantasized about.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I guess I've never really run at a steady pace. I'll come back to running.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: It's not really a metaphor in this instance. It's more concrete than any of this crap. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Right. [00:17:55]

CLIENT: But you know when I was running a lot my miles fluctuated wildly and I pushed myself so I was training way faster than I should've been. And I had all these aches and pains. Plantar fasciitis. And this and that. And I ran a marathon on two months training. I mean I was serious about it. I kind of identified with it but it was erratic.

But here God day after thanksgiving I ran three miles. And then four miles when we got back. And then ever since so that week was like thirteen miles in the end. And since then I've just steadily increased to the point where this will be a thirty mile week. And I feel like I have I'm not trying to prove anything in a way. Except I guess that I can be measured and regular. [00:19:02]

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And it's different. I'm not running with a watch.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I don't care how fast I'm going except like this morning I tried to gauge it so I would know. (inaudible at 00:19:15) You see what I'm saying? It's just not it's different. It's different than it used to be. Even that metaphor is -

THERAPIST: Yeah there is not kind of -

CLIENT: functioning.

THERAPIST: I imagine it's sort of like this (inaudible at 00:19:32) competitiveness. When I think about it. I mean (inaudible). That part is obvious. But it's what I'm sort of putting together sounds like competitiveness in a way, right?

CLIENT: It is! It is! Let's say with running. It was like this crazy, crazy whatever.

THERAPIST: Whatever.

CLIENT: But it was this really intense competitiveness that manifested itself in all kinds of strange ways. Like I would be running I remember I was running on the bridge in San Diego, which goes from San Diego [Inaudible]. [00:20:16]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: bridge, sorry. And I was coming back. It was dark. And I just had this sense that somebody was looking over my shoulder. And I started to run faster. Again, faster than I normally would have. I turned around and there is nobody there.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I would train at like seven and a half-minute miles to the point I really gave myself fasciitis.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Specifically because of this. Going much further than I should on any given day etc. Again because I was blogging it. I was blogging my speeds. I was blogging my I had just a log basically. Literally a log on the web. [00:21:09]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:21:11) Two hundred other people. I actually put up recipes and stuff like that.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughing) So I was making it public and it was important to me then. I mean these are people who some of whom are in training for Olympic qualifiers.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: It's like some ranging from people like that who are really serious runners to housewives who get out three miles three times a week or what have you.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: But like I was pushing myself in a way that that competitiveness was debilitating at some level. [00:21:52]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:21:58) And I knew that it was self-defeating.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I knew that it was actually self-destructive. I knew that it was hurting me.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I wasn't doing what I wanted to be doing. You know? I have some athletic talent.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I mean you know I'm not going to be qualifying for the Olympics or anything but you know it's like I can run a six, six and a half minute mile.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: On this lousy training. So you know in a way that's even worse. Like if I couldn't run faster than eight and a half minutes a mile then I couldn't push myself. I'm a little tangled up here I guess.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause at 00:22:45 to 00:22:54) You know I have this sense that I can aim at something but I don't have good sense about or I haven't had good sense or I've been -. My approach towards those objectives has been dictated by other things than -. Like it's a reasonable objective for me to say, "Well you know I want to train enough that I can qualify for this marathon." [00:23:21]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Or do something like that. That's not crazy for me to say that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It's not crazy in these other domains for me to say, "Well you know what I can be a reasonably successful person. I don't have a learning impediment."

THERAPIST: Right. Something about the way that you were sort of pushing and sacrificing yourself in your training that wasn't (inaudible at 00:23:42) -

CLIENT: That was just shooting myself in the foot.

THERAPIST: goal it was about (pause at 00:23:45 to 00:23:51) -

CLIENT: Satisfying somebody.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Something. In a way that was self-defeating. Self-destructive.

THERAPIST: Right. It certainly does make me think of you're sort of sacrificing yourself on that kind of altar of causes.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like I couldn't I wouldn't even be able to do good work for those causes. (inaudible at 00:24:16) want to do that. It was something about the way there is something about the way that I have been constructing tasks and my relation to it. And the incentive structure. [00:24:27]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And the rewards that I want to get. And the kind of relationship to the people all of these things there is something that's been undermining. Even what I kind of hoped to achieve. Not completely making it impossible to know what that was.

THERAPIST: Um.

CLIENT: That I could do.

THERAPIST: Well and one possibility that occurs to me is that the self sacrifice is in part a way of protecting whoever you're making the sacrifice for from how angry you are. In other words you kind of turn it around.

CLIENT: You know you've said this (inaudible at 00:25:29) something along these lines.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause at 00:25:31 to 00:25:44) Probably. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah it's sort of a little conceptual.

CLIENT: Well I whatever. I mean I wasn't feeling critical I was just trying to think about how I might evaluate that statement. [00:26:00]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And I'm not sure. It sounds okay. It certainly with regards to my father I guess where I'm kind of struggling with it is just the process of Philralizing. With my Dad? Sure I was protecting him. I felt like I was I probably felt like I was protecting our family from conflict and struggle. Protecting myself from the risk of alienating this important person in my life. You know what I mean? There is a lot of protection.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: With these other relationships? (sighs) I don't think it translates as protecting them.

THERAPIST: Which one did you have in mind?

CLIENT: I don't -

THERAPIST: Like work? [00:26:56]

CLIENT: Work, yeah. (pause at 00:26:57 to 00:27:25) (sighs) I mean this last phase with work has been interesting because on the one hand it's been totally (inaudible at 00:27:31). Like just classic.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:27:34)

CLIENT: (inaudible) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean you know just sort of -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: Divorcing myself and feeling alienated. And just not being able to bring the set of tasks to be done to mind.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: On the other hand I didn't bail.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I didn't say, "Okay I'm done. I'm leaving." I preserved this connection. I created HR still has to sign off on it but they have every incentive to do so. I think it's almost certainly going to fly and that means that in addition to consulting income I'll have basically it will pay my insurance every month plus x. [00:28:20]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You also I think had a more balanced view of who was responsible for what than you often do. In that on one side you were pretty frustrated with yourself about not being able to get more done, and being paralyzed and so forth. But were also holding both Phil and kind of (inaudible at 00:28:57) more broadly responsible for their part of it. I think.

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: And sort of Phil's flakiness. And his sort of wishy washiness about meeting. And how he ran the project. And partners not really being able to find a place for you. Or (inaudible at 00:29:19) path for you. I mean -. [00:29:19]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. No I mean I think by the last month or so I had it very clear. And I also I guess that speaks to what you said a moment ago in the sense that the reason I was able to do that is I had this other alternative simultaneously. Like I was able and I remember how it painful and just sort of ah. It was like doing surgery on myself or something. But somehow I arranged this alternative which gave me the distance. It somehow made it possible for me to do this analysis. And it gave me a position of safety from which to do that analysis. As if had I not had another gig I wouldn't be able to do the very analysis you that you talk about. [00:30:25]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Which allows me to see that more objectively. And that's really important. I think there is something it's not like suggesting I guess the thought that's in my head is that it wasn't so much that I was protecting Phil or partners or what have you. I was protecting myself in this completely self-defeating way. In other words, I couldn't be honest or I couldn't pursue a really kind of clear-eyed analysis unless I was protected from this system.

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah. (inaudible at 00:31:11) What did I quote from Archimedes? Who said -

CLIENT: Give me a lever and a place to stand and I'll move the world. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah exactly. That was literally the quote that was in my head. [00:31:20]

THERAPIST: Oh really? Yeah.

CLIENT: An Archimedean point.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And the reason you need the Archimedean point is because other wise it's somehow just too much to think of who is responsible for what. Like with partners. Or to think about what's going on.

CLIENT: (sighs) Yeah. It's either it doesn't have to be either. But one model is that it's just psychodynamic and while I'm participating in it I can't do this. Another model is this model of safety. While I feel dependent on this system just conceptually even I can't risk truth. I don't know what the other possible scenarios are. I imagine there are several. But it's really striking to me as I think about it. [00:32:32]

THERAPIST: Me too. Like that feeling and it is a feeling of dependence really constrains your thinking.

CLIENT: And acting.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause at 00:32:50 to 00:33:00)

CLIENT: So. (pause at 00:33:00 to 00:33:09)

THERAPIST: Like which means that you have some fantasy that just having further thought would put you in an untenable position.

CLIENT: (sighs) Is that what it means?

THERAPIST: It's one thing that it means. I mean when you feel dependent and wrapped up unless I'm misunderstanding. [00:33:47]

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Some person or institution. Even being able to step back and think about what's going on -

CLIENT: It's dangerous.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It poses a real threat. (pause at 00:33:59 to 00:34:17)

CLIENT: So instead I kind of down regulate.

THERAPIST: Mm. Yeah.

CLIENT: There is this down regulation which involves among other things not running. Not -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Like I mean it's weird.

THERAPIST: It's a regression.

CLIENT: It is. Something like regression.

THERAPIST: It's like moving into a non-thinking kind of mode.

CLIENT: Yeah. But regression implies that I've it's a familiar one and it's associated with some past incarnation of this dynamic. [00:34:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So no that's plausible to me. I mean you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It is consistent with how I remember the last six months or so.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (sighs) So just pragmatically it's an interesting analysis. I say scratching my head. That's curious. Pragmatically how to avoid that. Or no not so much how to avoid it but how to kind of move beyond it I guess. It's really like when you're talking about regression. That's kind of the task, right?

How can you be in that kind of a situation a difficult situation potentially and not respond that way? You know? You don't always have an alternative to every like this situation comes up a million times. It can come up in the grocery store. It can come up in it's not unfamiliar that you're kind of in a bad relationship of one kind or another. [00:36:10]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And at that particular moment that that becomes clear you don't immediately have something set up. So how can you preserve the kind of analytical -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: capacity.

THERAPIST: We start to look at things differently. Because to me it sounds sort of like, "Hmm." (pause at 00:36:29 to 00:36:44) (inaudible) To me (inaudible) like, "Oh my gosh. We've got this elephant walking around on stilts." (laughter) And you're saying, "Well what do we do about that? How do we get an elephant off stilts?" And I'm like, "How did the hell did an elephant wind up on stilts walking around? And what's he doing here?" [00:37:00]

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I understand the practical part. Go ahead.

CLIENT: But there probably is a very different perspective that we have.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But if you think about where you're coming from and where I'm coming from (laughing). (inaudible at 00:37:15) (laughter)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: (laughing) I just don't want the elephant to fall on my (inaudible at 00:37:26) house. (laughter)

THERAPIST: Right. That is true. Except that I know that you also know that in this context the way to deal with elephants on stilts is to understand more about how they came about.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Oh absolutely. Not because it's sort of of intellectual interest or academic curiosity but because that puts you in touch with the feelings you really have about what's really going on.

CLIENT: Okay. You mixed your metaphors fatally here. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yes. You're right. I agree. I agree. And I'm not adverse to that aspect of it. [00:38:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But yeah. I guess it's not that much of a mystery where it came from. Like the historical analysis is I don't know. I mean if you have your little person. And you have people who are struggling with life crises that they kind of can't cope with. Dad. My Mom. All this stuff. Then they do. And it's scary to them in ways that they can't really even get their heads around. They have all the information. I can imagine it would be very threatening. Scary. To have to understand it yourself to kind of or just these things that are beyond -. Like I don't know. [00:39:07]

I'm fumbling for something. But it doesn't sound that like how the elephant got up on the stilts doesn't sound that mysterious to me. It was just a lot of complexity in a kind of formative environment. And I got into some patterns of coping with things that at the time made a kind of sense. They weren't optimal but they made a kind of sense. And in adulthood they're completely self-defeating. I think. (sighs) (pause at 00:39:45 to 00:39:56) You want me to kind of be in touch with sensation rather than have a model to explain it. I know.

THERAPIST: Well I (inaudible at 00:40:09) to me. And I imagine you're right. I guess I may be less a believer in sort of psychical inertia in a way. In that well certainly it makes sense that this has roots in those sorts of situations. [00:40:30]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: But -

CLIENT: It doesn't explain why it's stuck.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like what's it doing for you now. Or why it's so dangerous now? Some of that sure there is some kind of inertia to those sorts of things. And you but what's so dangerous two months ago about making -

CLIENT: Well. Yeah. I mean I guess my Dad dying is probably part of it. It sort of frees the grasp patterns that are obsolete as a way of preserving that relationship. That's probably part of the mix. Combined with the fact that -

THERAPIST: Maybe there is an active effort going on in doing things this way to keep the other person around. [00:41:37]

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess that's what I was trying to say.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Just kind of nostalgic isn't quite the right word. Grief is part of grief is saying goodbye to somebody I guess. And that being painful. And part of grief is finding a way to keep them present.

THERAPIST: Yeah actually (inaudible at 00:41:58) about maybe one of the moments you seem most moved as we've been talking today was actually with Kevin talking about he seemed to absorb. And you felt like you understood that but you weren't quite there anymore.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:42:17) I was kind of annoyed.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: Or just it's like just to have this struggle.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Just sure a really profound struggle projected onto me. So there is just like this expectation that whenever I had a struggle it was because I couldn't let go of my father's ambitions for the world and for me. [00:42:47]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like it's been hard enough for me to throw off that dead weight let alone having other people throwing it back on my shoulders. (laughs) You know?

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: But yeah. That moved it's Oh God. I don't know whether it's moving or annoying. (laughing)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I don't quite know where I am with all this.

THERAPIST: Well we can stop.

CLIENT: Yeah okay. Okay.

THERAPIST: But we'll talk more on Friday.

CLIENT: Yeah I'll see you on Friday.

THERAPIST: Okay.

(inaudible conversation at 00:43:27 to 00:43:43)

CLIENT: I'll see you later. [00:43:43] [End of audio]

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