TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Good morning.

CLIENT: Good morning. I was laughing as I got dressed this morning. There was no way I could do logistics without my monkey suit, but in light of our phone conversation it was a little bit fun. (Pause) So let me just talk practically about working and this week some it was real easy like one task I did really easily. The other I had some problems. I felt some resistance and I guess the resistance is kind of what I'm thinking about this morning. I'm trying to understand it a little better you know how it relates to... In theory I'm feeling like this is kind of an optimal psychic space. I feel good. I feel validated. It's new and I'm enjoying getting to know all these people; understand the system. I feel interested. I feel like they're treating me well. [00:01:18]

So all things are good and yet there's still just a little something, interference, that has made it difficult in a very familiar way, I guess, to do certain kinds of tasks. Like I'm flying down today and we're going to go over an outline. I haven't written the outline. It's not conceivably... I can do it over the course of the next three to four hours and that's fine, but conceivably I could also have done it over the course of yesterday, and I was having trouble doing it, and I'm not quite sure why. So I guess that's the best place to begin. [00:02:01]

THERAPIST: Well from my least favorite subject to my favorite question.

CLIENT: What comes to mind? (Chuckles)

THERAPIST: What comes to mind?

CLIENT: Literally what's on my mind right now is I didn't eat breakfast and I'm hungry, and I feel like as we (inaudible at 00:02:35) that's there. I didn't... I took a shower. I shaved. Last night I laid out my clothes, etcetera, but I didn't make time to eat breakfast. [00:03:06]

Maybe... I don't know what there is there. Maybe something about it. (inaudible at 00:03:16). I mean there were many things that I did do. As is typical it's like there are different kinds of tasks. Typically I'm more or less okay with the... Even when I'm really in a kind of very (pause) disordered sounds a little too extreme although it's probably accurate. When I'm in a state of distress even, maximal distress, I usually am fine making appointments and if there's a phone call that I have to do I'll do it, and I'll do it well. So that's one genre and then the other genre that becomes difficult in those circumstances is creative tasks. [00:04:19]

So yesterday and the day before as I was trying to produce this outline I had several phone interviews like formal interviews of mine. One of them was a difficult subject. She's a little arrogant, a little standoffish, and I did it, and it went pretty well. I felt pleased with how it went. Like I was able to... In order for that to happen you have to kind of assert yourself in some way and I was able to do that. I had a somewhat difficult discussion with a potential collaborator for a project. It's Phil affiliated. I did that well. I had a difficult but an interaction with Phil that required some... [00:05:21]

So all of these things went fine. That kind of thing went fine. Some e-mail correspondence that, again, required some attention. That went fine. But this creative stuff there were three things to do. I did one of them quite well I think and then the others which were later in the week I've had problems, trouble, getting going on them. So I don't know what to make of that. [00:06:01]

One indicator is that my office got messy. I allowed my office I made a mess in my office. It's really interesting. My initial inclination is just to imagine something that's completely independent of me to just happen. Which brings up something else that comes to mind actually that I had sort of made a mental note it might be interesting to talk about last night.

So this trip kind of happened late Wednesday evening, and we had made plans to have people over for dinner. So among other things Jennie said, "Well tomorrow can you help clean up the house?" I said, "Sure." It's actually hard. There was a kind of resistance there that was, at least, analogous to resistance to doing this creative so that might actually be interesting. But let's park that for the moment. [00:07:23]

So it took me a little while to get going with that but I did. I vacuumed the whole house. I went out and did some grocery shopping. And I was feeling very sleepy, and I was also feeling like I wanted to do this outline, and I was kind of caught between them. I was feeling very sleepy. I had like three-quarters of a glass of beer which sometimes makes me sleepy. At any rate it was 10:30 when I got back from the grocery store. And I went to my office probably intending to put together and maybe try and make a stab at the outline, so on and so forth, and instead I went to sleep on the futon in my office. [00:08:23]

And I was just feeling overpoweringly tired. That was the sensation that I was feeling. It was just overpowering fatigue and I just couldn't not go to sleep. It was like that was the way that it felt. It just happened.

THERAPIST: The phrase that's occurring to me is through a bunch of this there's signs of a struggle.

CLIENT: Maybe. Maybe. So let me tell the rest of it which might give you more fodder for your hypothesis. (Pause) So I went to sleep and apparently I was sleeping very deeply. And Jennie came in at one point to find me asleep on the futon and she knew that there was stuff that I needed to do. You know iron my pants, clean cat hair off of my red coat, and just stuff that had to be done before departure. [00:09:26]

So she tried to wake me up and my first reaction apparently this is my understanding and she was kind of irate in telling it anyway my first reaction was just fear like I was freaked out as she's trying to wake me up. I was like ah! And then she sort of gently... She came in with the panna cotta that we were making for this dinner just to show it to me. And she tells that she was just very tenderly trying to nudge me and my first response was to be frightened. My second response was to get irate and I got irate. I'm like leave me alone. Stop bothering me. I'm getting up. I'm getting up I said through my eye closed. I'm getting up. I'm waking up. It takes me some time or something. [00:10:32]

So apparently that went on for a little while and then she went away and I still wasn't getting up. So by the end it took me about I probably went under at 10:30 and I woke up at 12:30. And she was pissed off. And I was like it's kind of a insomnia. It's not like I'm consciously telling you to fuck off. So I was kind of irate at her irateness. It's the familiar thing between us. It's not my favorite way of interacting. [00:11:19]

But I guess I was curious a little bit to (inaudible at 00:11:22) to mind so to speak. You know this sentence that I don't have any control... You know I think what was frustrating to me about her response was that it's not like I'm deciding to be irate. I'm not being malicious. I'm not intending to be freaked out initially and then be a little belligerent. I feel like it's not my belligerence. And yet as I think about that response just sort of reflectively at some level that's crazy. You know it is belligerence. [00:12:03]

So I guess both with this and with the difficulty working, in general, in this particular instance over the past week I'm struggling with the question of agency or volition. And on one level just intellectually it seems pretty clear to me that unless I can own it somehow it's not going to change. That seems... And on the other hand I don't feel like I have any control over it. So it's all very well to say that the prerequisite for it to get better is to feel otherwise about it, but I don't see how I can. So I feel kind of stuck between...

THERAPIST: Sorry. When you say the prerequisite to feel otherwise about it...

CLIENT: Well the prerequisite for acting otherwise. I guess that's what I'm saying.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: The prerequisite for acting otherwise is to feel otherwise about it; to feel like this is something that I'm doing. And yet I don't. I don't see how it can be. I doesn't feel like a conscious decision. There's some kind of process by which I'm hiding myself off from it; that I don't really have a handle on. I don't know. I mean we've explored it before. This is not the first time this kind of thing has happened. [00:13:21]

THERAPIST: That we're talking about right?

CLIENT: I feel a little bit out of control I guess. That's the most straight forward way of putting it in all the senses that, that implies. And I'm struggling with that because on the one hand I ought to be in control. I feel like all other conditions are right for me to be in control. If I'm not in control in these circumstances, when will I be in control? And I guess that's the point at which I come to you saying so what's the program here? [00:14:01]

THERAPIST: (Pause) Well it sounds like your let's say the (inaudible at 00:14:42) part is feeling probably tired, probably somewhat ignored, you know maybe a bit overwhelmed. I guess I have the impression that at one level you're sort of geared up for the crowd, excited, also anxious, and really kind of committed to making the new job, or gig, or contract, or whatever you call it, work. [00:15:29]

But I imagine you're (pause)... I have the impression there's a way that you then sort of neglect some of the costs or neglect some of the ways you feel the cost of that. The tiredness that comes feeling so beat up about it. (Pause) I don't know. It's just interesting to sort of being able to have the time to let it go at some moment. But I think you can pretty keyed up about it actually. That's not crazy. That's not unusual. It's a relatively new thing. It's exciting. You're feeling really good about it in some ways and worried about how it's going to go I think in other ways. And there are some aspects of it that we talked about on Wednesday. And you know the hiring that, I guess, at times doesn't give you time that you want for yourself. And I imagine those sort of two feelings about it maybe aren't talking very well with each other. [00:17:08]

CLIENT: It's good but another element just occurred to me relating to this trip.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What's that?

CLIENT: We're partnering with a department within the institution outside of the president's office and the knowledge and learning department. And frankly they seem kind of half-assed, yet I think the strategic decision made clearly to me given the fact that the product hasn't been great. That it was important to have somebody to have a group of people within the institution to be the brokers to other parts of the bank. In other words, just running this initiative directly from the president's office. I mean it wasn't what they wanted to do strategically in terms of internal stuff. [00:18:15]

So basically they sold me to them. So they told the director of this very small department on me that they pay my salary and expenses, and I would be available to do the writing for them. To write the concept note, to kind of...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:18:37) they would pay. So you mean...

CLIENT: The president's office would pay. It would come from their budget. I would come from their budget. My travel would come from their budget. And they would be able to orchestrate the composition of these things and I would be the point person for executing them. [00:19:02]

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: But then you'd be working within this department?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean so what that means is, for example, they... Sorry. I lost my train of thought. They were talking to me about giving me some office space. We have had a long conversation last Friday a week ago about how to build the team, etcetera. But my expenses, and salary, and consulting fees come out of the president's office.

So at the very last possible minute on Wednesday evening they say can you fly down to Washington for a meeting? Logistically it's fine. But you know I'm kind of annoyed at being jerked around. So I wrote to Jack, (inaudible at 00:20:15) and I said the way that I put it was I'm a little concerned that if I'm just coming down for the day and this was kind of organized at the last minute that the chief of staff could get a little annoyed and sort of look a little bit more with a more jaundiced eye at my travel expenses. [00:20:41]

Because right now I basically have discretion. I mean I think Jack is signing off. I mean on an informal basis Jack is signing off on those things if one of the secretary's that does the booking has any questions. But basically I'm deciding when my trips are going to be and they're paying for them. They're going on the corporate card. So I said the way that I put it was I'm a little concerned. And he said, "Yeah, yeah, I think that might be concerning." Then I said, "Well why I don't come down this one time, but I'll kind of intervene." [00:21:13]

And I wrote to the person who's the sort they call him the task team leader the person who's organizing things from within this department. Sorry (inaudible at 00:21:27). And I said, "Listen it seems really important to come down so I'm going to fly." "I'll fly down and back on Friday." I did talk to the office of the president and my impression was that if it seems like we're being too cavalier about these things then this chief of staff could get grumpy. Do you guys have any budget to contribute for air travel which I knew that they didn't. He writes back a little worried saying, "No, we didn't." "We may have to talk about if they think these trips are cavalier." I said, "No, they think the trips are fine and they don't have a problem with it so long as they're organized in advance." I think he knew what was going on. [00:22:14]

Anyway so I kind of intervened. There's some push and pull, and I kind of intervened, and I felt good about that intervention. It felt like being very collegial, and nice, and I was getting the point across, etcetera. But I wonder if there isn't some of that just sort of annoyance of being jerked around that way implicated in my tension over producing. And if so I think it's a slightly different issue than the one that we talked about a moment ago, but it's still a problem. Consciously whatever... I kind of dealt with it. I intervened. I felt fine about that intervention. I felt very pleased that I had the capacity to operate at this level which on the one hand's kind of stupid game playing and on the other hand it kind of creates some space. But I feel like I'm out of control. Assuming that this is the working theory or it's part of the working theory there's a reactionary behavior there that, again, is sort of undermining me. It makes it more difficult for me and I want to understand how I can get control of it a little bit better. [00:23:44]

THERAPIST: Gotcha. (Pause) Well do you have further thoughts about the reaction itself, the feeling of being jerked around a bit or... Let me put it another way it's usually like that's the thing that can be a little hard to get a hold of. It's easier to get a hold of and talk about being pleased with how you handled it and sort of the kind of operating that way or whatever. But the part in the first place where you have that kind of (pause) reaction seems maybe a little harder to get a hold of or it seems that way to me but maybe not to you. I'm wondering about that and about the nature of the reaction that you had. I mean I guess it was frustration or something along those lines. [00:24:56]

CLIENT: Well I mean it's a pain in the ass on short notice to come down to New York I feel a little bit annoyed at their... I'm conscious of at least it is annoyance rather than hurt or maybe I'm sure there's all that stuff but I'm most in touch with annoyance about... You know it's like they don't have a budget. They aren't really super confident like they don't know what they want to do. They're asking me to come and do it for them. And if I do it well, as I'm capable of doing, then they're going to reap the benefits. But I guess I feel a little annoyed about it. It just seems... [00:25:47]

THERAPIST: Yeah it's starting to take on some of the hallmarks I think we talked about before but you're not real confident in how they're going to be using you in a way.

CLIENT: Well no that's actually fine. They're very nice. You know at the end of the day they're very nice and I'm not really dependent on them.

THERAPIST: Right. I guess what I had in mind, and maybe this still isn't the right thing, is it sounds like you're not entirely convinced that when they say you need to make a trip down there they really have sort of thought it through well and they're less crucial. [00:26:25]

CLIENT: Yeah. That is definitely true.

THERAPIST: They may be well meaning...

CLIENT: We could easily do this with a phone call. And there is something to kind of building a team and building collegiality. And one of the things in the back of my head is a conversation I had with Kevin not long ago where he said you really have to work with the team. You know when he says shit like that there's usually another conversation with somebody else that happens consequently. So I imagine that the word went out to (inaudible at 00:26:57) I fantasize I think is a better way of putting it. I have no idea exactly what happened. But I fantasize there was a very brief exchange with (inaudible at 00:27:06) where he said make sure that Galen's a team player or something along those lines. Make sure not only that he's doing work but that he's getting it on time. He's being team player. He's not being... [00:27:20]

I feel frustrated actually as I think about it. My exchanges with various people on this score with this rep that I implicitly have been given as somebody who's not collaborative. It sounds almost self promoting, I guess, when with the way that I understand it is that I've kind of been very helpful to people's careers and I've not had that same help so I feel like there's some victim blaming going on there. And that's probably at some deep level important to all of this. But at any rate...

THERAPIST: Well there's that. There's the fact of kind of feeling at some level a little bit jerked around by them. Again, I understand that their well intentions but you're having to deal with their half-assness. [00:28:14]

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I wrote saying delivering something that had been commissioned of me on Monday with a note for on Tuesday morning the note saying let me know when we can meet. Actually even before that on Monday I said, "Is there a time when we can meet?" So like what the fuck right. So there is definitely some annoyance there. There's probably some deep annoyance about this need to be a team player and sort of visibly demonstrate my team playerness by 24 hours notice flying down to New York.

THERAPIST: When what you just also said if you do a good job for them they're going to look good.

CLIENT: A lot better than they would look under usual circumstances.

THERAPIST: Right. And then there's this question of whether you're being a good enough team player. I mean it sounds like a lot of the old things. [00:29:09]

CLIENT: You know some of it I look at it and I say well you know there's something there that is worthy of assessment. And some of it I look at and say well you're just kind of being irritable and whatever. Maybe that evaluation is somewhat analogous if not homologous to the question of whether I'm worth consulting fees. I don't know. There's something that feels a little bit parallel there. Do I have standing to be genuinely annoyed or am I just being easily annoyed?

THERAPIST: Right. I think I'm following you.

CLIENT: You follow me.

THERAPIST: Are you just being irritable or are they kind of doing something which is definitely annoying. [00:30:04]

CLIENT: But I mean getting back to the practical question of being productive with some of the more creative tasks this is really an issue. It's like am I just being irritable or is there really something that this is a indicator of that I need to respond to before I'm able to deal with the production problem? Is the production problem the problem in itself or is it...

THERAPIST: It would seem to me that being irritated in this way, however much you or they are responsible for, probably relates to the production problem. I mean that's what we've seen time, and time, and time, and time again.

CLIENT: Earlier we had a slightly different understanding you know potential way of seeing this and this is the second one. I think this is the second way of understanding that. That the irritation is the primary causal. [00:31:05]

THERAPIST: I would imagine that the one you're talking about now sounds like it may be more central. But both probably put together...

CLIENT: How do you imagine those two?

THERAPIST: (Pause) You know like (pause) last night I think when Jennie trying to wake you up and let's say for a minute that we're talking about two sides that we're not actually talking about Jennie. We're talking about the side of you that's probably on her side and saying I've got to get up, and I've got to get my suit, and I've got to get ready, and I've got to think about those things that I haven't wrote the outline. And then on the other side you're like hey I'm tired. I'm putting in my time. I did this. I did that. I am going on this trip and I'm kind of annoyed about it. Fucking let me sleep. [00:32:21]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't think that's maybe exactly the same but it may be... It's not hard for me to imagine that it's related to this feeling of I don't want to fucking go down to New York this weekend. (inaudible at 00:32:35). I don't want to get opinionated about not being a team player if I really spend a lot of my time making everybody else look better than I wind up looking. So you know it doesn't sound so far down the road from...

CLIENT: So let's just assume that. You know take that as a premise. Where does it go from there? I guess what I'm trying to understand is where it goes from there?

THERAPIST: So that's at 8:30. I can throw something quickly at what you said.

CLIENT: Well you tell me quickly and I'll chew on it, and we can reconvene. [00:33:13]

THERAPIST: I don't think... I imagine something that's therapeutically active is appreciating as we're doing the context for the reactions that you're having whether it's your to being woken up, or your annoyance, or irritation. And that when you sort of give it a little breathing room you're less likely to act on it in a way that you're unaware of such as by not doing the work.

CLIENT: Good.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: We'll see you next week.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: And you'll prepare a bill or something because at minimum I think I owe will take some of the pressure off. [00:34:05]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: If you could also write up all of the details that I would need to interact with these people, then...

THERAPIST: Yeah. What I'll do is I'll send you what I have from the fall. Yeah, I'll send you what you need to bill them, just dates of service, diagnosis, and my tax ID.

CLIENT: So in their form there are two codes. One is the service code and one is the diagnosis code.

THERAPIST: Okay. Yeah, I do, do this for other people.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay. We'll work it out.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Have a good day.

CLIENT: Okay. Thanks. See you next week. [00:35:02]

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