TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(long pause)

[00:01:12]

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Hey. (pause) So —

THERAPIST: Just to make sure. So we're on for today and then we're on for Friday.

CLIENT: Friday, yeah. (pause) So I'm sick still, but I think the stomach problems are stress, and I really had a lot of trouble producing going into this trip for the first time.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:02:07]

CLIENT: The first trip. Kind of classic.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: We saw that kind of a little bit on Friday.

THERAPIST: It's the same thing.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I'm just — like I'm not — I don't have much appetite. I'm a little (inaudible at 00:02:32) (pause) It's like the kind of connectivity is attenuated. I'm very familiar [with that]. (pause) And I guess what's interesting is that at least this time, my sense is that it began with that kind of attenuated connectivity.

[00:03:09]

In other words, it wasn't like the stress of doing something made me feel like some kind of disconnection from the project. I don't quite know how to describe it. But it's just hard for me to get my head around what I have to do. It's not very — like what the burden on me to produce is not actually that great. It's a short piece and if I were to produce it, everything would be fine. But there's something, there's something in the way, and I don't quite know what it is. But there's a feedback loop, and it kind of moves in lock-step with this sense of disconnection. (pause)

[00:04:11]

Or rather, there's a sense of disconnection and it's associated with not being able to deliver, and associated with not being able to deliver is very familiar. Stress and difficulty eating and kind of interruption of daily routines and all of that and they reinforce each other. So like I can see the mechanics of it. There's nothing new about it. There's no real insight to be gotten from it in that sense.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Or rather, the model doesn't get, you know, filled out, in an especially novel way. But I can see the way they interact. And there's no real reason that I can — you know, where before I think we were, you know, looking for some rationalization.

[00:05:08]

THERAPIST: (laughter) Hopefully a rationale more so than a rationalization. (laughter)

CLIENT: Rationale, fair enough. Freudian slip, right? That's — I'm pretty self-critical. Yeah, rationale. Some rational basis for understanding it, that's what I meant to say.

THERAPIST: I understand.

CLIENT: Literally, rationalization. I don't see one here. (pause) The one thing that's different is this one is actually [for Kevin], so maybe there's an unusual amount of something associated with it. It's like directly. I mean, all of them are but somehow — I don't know. I don't know why. No, this is really no different than other —

THERAPIST: I think what I gather is different about this one from things you've had to do recently is that the stakes are high.

[00:06:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe so.

THERAPIST: And you're kind of really beyond this —

CLIENT: Maybe I'm choking.

THERAPIST: But that doesn't fit in with how we've understood —

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: — these recent instances of your having difficulty producing.

CLIENT: I mean, only if we're looking for kind of a single factor analysis then yes, there's no reason why the same phenomenon couldn't be promoted by —

THERAPIST: Absolutely. I would imagine that's what's going on.

CLIENT: — different sorts of things.

THERAPIST: Sure, absolutely.

CLIENT: That seems the most plausible.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so.

CLIENT: And I guess one thing that's ratcheting it up a little bit is I really don't want to share this with Jennie (ph) right now. (pause)

THERAPIST: You don't want to tell her you're having trouble?

CLIENT: No, I don't. I don't. We have just gotten through a rough patch whose resolution is, you know, kind of — (pause) Just that I'm handling things, and the idea that I can't handle things is hard. (long pause)

[00:07:36]

I just had the dry heaves all morning. (pause) I think I ate something real rather than an orange or something for the first time in a couple of days this morning. I really [had to pay] a lot of attention to it.

THERAPIST: You mean you haven't really eaten anything in —

CLIENT: Well, I mean, you know. I've eaten an orange. I've eaten stuff.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:08:01)

CLIENT: But I haven't like sat down and eaten anything substantial. This morning I had some eggs. (long pause)

[00:08:40]

It feels good to talk about it.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: It's really good. I feel I've been holding it in for a while.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause) I'm eminently capable of doing it. I feel very capable of doing it, but I'm not doing it. I feel eminently capable of doing it. I feel as if it would not take, you know, an impossible effort to do it. It's still in plenty of time. It's a little later than I said it would be, but you know, certainly not fatally so.

THERAPIST: Right.

[00:09:39]

CLIENT: At least I'm scheduled to leave tomorrow. I don't know. I just — I'm scared. I feel frightened.

THERAPIST: I think you're terrified.

CLIENT: I feel frightened.

THERAPIST: I mean, I imagine you feel terrified like this could start everything crumbling.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What would otherwise be a really terrific opportunity.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's right. And it doesn't have to. Like I feel — I kind of feel it turning in my hands and yet it's not turning yet. But there's something very very powerful. It's a very powerful countervailing force to this sense that all I need to do is just sort of take it.

[00:10:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: There's something very powerful countervailing right now, and I don't really know what it is. (pause) Like I see the model, I see this tension, I see this — you know, the way that these phenomena interact, but I don't totally understand what this countervailing force is and I don't know how to arrest it. It's really where I am.

THERAPIST: And it's something that's kind of dead-set against your taking this opportunity, against your being productive, against your being connected?

CLIENT: (pause) (coughing) Excuse me. I don't know. (pause)

[00:11:43]

When you say it, I feel resistant. (pause) But I called it a force, so you know, you're just using my metaphor. I guess you're giving it kind of — you're anthropomorphizing. I don't know. I mean, you know, it's appropriate. It's anthropomorphic. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: (laughter) Right.

CLIENT: But I don't really understand it, understand what it is. (long pause)

[00:13:09]

In here — let's see. (pause) I don't feel, actively right now, I don't feel fear. You know, I know that it's very frightening. I know that an hour ago, I felt very frightened and was, you know, engaging in the usual kind of dissociating, looking for some activity to — (pause)

[00:14:23]

But Jennie (ph) — I'm sure that Jennie (ph) knows that, frankly she's seen it before. She knows that it's stress. (pause) Anyway, I don't feel frightened right now. I feel actually a sense of well-being, talking about this. I think because I'm not running from it. It's the running from it that's really upsetting, discomforting, discomforted. That's what really makes me feel just inconsolable, is the running from it. (pause)

[00:15:40]

It's kind of weird to realize, and yet I mean here we are. The purpose of this discussion is to talk to you about it, whereas I can't talk to Jennie (ph) about it, I feel right now. I mean, I feel as if I could do the thing right now. It's almost as if the running from it, that's a very strange kind of fractal image. You know, the fact that I can't talk about it with Jennie (ph) makes it difficult to do. There would be no id if it were done.

[00:16:35]

So it's almost as if the difficulty that I'm having with this is not about the task itself or the job itself, it's about Jennie (ph) in some way. I don't know. I feel tangled up as I try and tease all of these threads out. (pause)

THERAPIST: Like I gather the disconnection is with her. (pause) That it would make a big difference if you could talk to her about it. One thing that makes this harder to resolve is that you can't.

[00:17:52]

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true.

THERAPIST: I'm not saying that we don't know if that's sort of the root problem at all.

CLIENT: It certainly makes it harder —

THERAPIST: — you feel like it could help a lot if you could.

CLIENT: — makes it harder to resolve.

THERAPIST: And I gather it gives you a certain kind of confidence to be able to talk to me, at least in the moment.

CLIENT: Well-being.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: It's different.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That is different.

[00:18:45]

CLIENT: It's like I can inspect it. I can say this is what's going on. I can tell — I can just very matter-of-factly describe it for what it is. (long pause) I can respond to it in a constructive way rather than an avoidant way. (pause)

[00:19:49]

THERAPIST: Is there a — I imagine it has in part to do with a confidence that — not in any big or amazing way — but that I will be able to take it in. That, you know, what you're going through will make sense to me, I mean to the extent that it makes sense to us at this point, and that I will listen and there aren't the kind of concerns there are now with talking to Jennie (ph) about it. I'm not saying I'm performing some amazing function or have some special insight. I'm just saying like you have confidence that you can talk about it here and that we'll be sort of on the same page about it, and I'll be able to hear what you're saying. And that contributes to the feeling of well-being.

[00:20:42]

CLIENT: I mean, I think it's a little more — solipsistic is the word. Yeah, I guess that's important. You know, it's more like this is a setting in which it's reasonable for me to talk about it and open it up for inspection. My vague sense is that your response and your comprehension and understanding, I'm not sure how immediately relevant it is. Do you — I mean —

THERAPIST: It's more like — (voices overlapping)

CLIENT: I may be totally wrong about that. It's just that here I can sit down and I can say "okay, this is what's going on" and it's probably, you know, important that you say "oh yeah, I get it."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But it may not be. It may just be the first part —

THERAPIST: It's more like this is a reasonable place to talk about it.

[00:21:40]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: That's the part that feels —

CLIENT: Like I can say "this is what's going on with me."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The reason why I can do this is that we've spent all of this time and energy, you know, creating that space so it's not accidental.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But it's the first part that most immediately seems —

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like my talking. This is a place where I can understand. It's almost as if I can't talk it out, I can't understand it. I can't, you know, extend my faculty of conceptualization to accommodate it so it's unaccommodated.

[00:22:41]

So I respond in various ways that are painful, that cause suffering. Whereas now, I feel well-being. I feel, you know, my stomach is relaxed and I feel kind of a sense of warmth.

THERAPIST: And you're smiling. Because one thing that has been kind of going in and out of my mind is that when you're talking about this, is the eating the eggs this morning.

CLIENT: Is what?

THERAPIST: The eating the eggs this morning.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It makes me think of this as a restaurant.

CLIENT: A restaurant. Like this is a restaurant. Okay, yeah. Well, you know, all but the food.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's the feeling you get when you sit down at a diner.

THERAPIST: Yeah, or a (inaudible at 00:23:32)

CLIENT: And all that. Coffee. (long pause)

[00:24:25]

The fear is close by. The well-being is here and the fear is here. I feel like it's just outside of the door. (long pause)

[00:25:25]

THERAPIST: Is the fear something you can talk about here as well?

CLIENT: Sure. I mean, it's a fear of being, I guess — what do you want to know?

THERAPIST: Well, I guess what I'm asking is a few minutes ago it seemed like it was quite far away. I may be misunderstanding the sense in which you meant some of these things. But it sounded to me as though a few minutes ago you were saying that you didn't feel it although you know you obviously did at home and so forth. But now it sounds like it's closer at hand.

CLIENT: I guess so. I mean, I guess I was realizing. (pause) The one could be replaced by the other very quickly and that when I thought about, you know, completing our therapeutic hour and walking outside the door —

[00:26:28]

THERAPIST: I see. I was imagining —

CLIENT: I had contact with —

THERAPIST: I was imagining it also as kind of like possibly another course.

CLIENT: Another course.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You're still with the —

THERAPIST: Restaurant metaphor.

CLIENT: The restaurant metaphor. Another course.

THERAPIST: And there was something else that can be talked about.

CLIENT: Ah, okay. Well —

THERAPIST: That you can begin to conceptualize in ways that are difficult.

CLIENT: Okay, well that would be an interesting re-frame.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's very situational with me. It's very associated with place.

[00:27:24]

It's not that one place can't be redefined. (pause) There's a close correlation between my sense of emotional sense and the imaging of cognition of a place, location. (pause) Another course. (pause) Okay, I'll remember that. What do you want to know? (pause)

[00:28:30]

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: This is a little hokey.

THERAPIST: (laughter) Uh huh.

CLIENT: (pause) I think possibly more important than not eating much, I think I haven't drunk much either. I'm probably dehydrated. I feel dehydrated. (pause) So that comes to mind.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

[00:29:26]

CLIENT: A literal course. (pause) Oh, what is it that I've eaten? What have I swallowed? (pause) It's a little too rich. (pause) It wasn't my dish. [It was somebody else's].

THERAPIST: [My fear is that] we're kind of all about this restaurant metaphor with food and stuff.

CLIENT: Yes. I'm running with it. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You're running with it, yeah, yeah, yeah. (chuckles) That makes me wonder if you're also talking about this job.

[00:30:37]

CLIENT: Oh. Huh. I guess what was in my mind was not this job per se but family stuff.

THERAPIST: Uh huh. Yeah, what did you have in mind?

CLIENT: (pause) This kind of tortured feeling about doing work and finding work and being in the world in that way. It was not really — you know, it was just kind of borrowed from my dad, the struggle with my family and all that stuff. Somehow I just kind of swallowed it and I can't regurgitate it.

[00:31:45]

THERAPIST: Uh huh. You're saying, if I follow, about this sense of kind of being tortured about work, unable to find work or sort of struggling around work.

CLIENT: Uh huh.

THERAPIST: It seems like very much from your family and from your dad?

CLIENT: Yeah, just sort of being — feeling like there was a burden that I was being asked to shoulder, that it was too much for me that I didn't want to do, and somehow I'm just kind of replicating it again, this struggle or tension again and again and again.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's funny that just fit perfectly I guess with what I had in mind about this job and it being too rich.

CLIENT: Oh, the job being too rich?

THERAPIST: Yeah, like it's eminently doable, they're treating me well, they're paying me really well.

[00:32:50]

It could be pretty smooth sailing and could be lucrative. (pause) And see, now once you get started with the food metaphors there's just no stopping it.

CLIENT: (laughter)

THERAPIST: The first I was thinking was that it's difficult to digest, but you know.

CLIENT: Uh huh. Difficult to digest that —

THERAPIST: It's too rich, it feels kind of like you're eating too rich, it feels like it's too much, it's too easy.

CLIENT: It's too easy. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Like — do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: (sighing) Like it should be more difficult?

THERAPIST: Like you should have some tortured work experience where you're going to struggle and they're not going to treat you that well.

[00:33:50]

CLIENT: I see.

THERAPIST: Including not paying you that well, and you have to work hard and heroically.

CLIENT: I see.

THERAPIST: And really carry something that you know that you can live with. But it's something that's going to require a reasonable amount of work in an environment where you're going to be treated respectfully and well and paid really well.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's going to turn your stomach in knots.

CLIENT: So I'm just making it up, making it happen.

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, I guess I sort of think that any way you look at it, you're used to making it happen.

CLIENT: I'm used to -

THERAPIST: I mean, any model I think would involve you making it happen one way or another. (pause)

[00:34:48]

It just seems like where we're both going to. (pause) There's like some connection to your family, especially your dad's sense of loyalty or something like that. (long pause)

[00:35:41]

CLIENT: Okay. So. (pause) Where does that leave us?

THERAPIST: I don't know. I mean, how does it strike you?

CLIENT: (long pause) I guess what I fear is that it doesn't matter. Either I can produce or I can't produce.

[00:36:46]

THERAPIST: Right. So something just occurred to me. Before, when you were saying this is hokey, I know you were referring to the food/restaurant metaphor. Did you think I had asked you before if there are associations to that metaphor?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: You said "what comes to mind?" and I was admittedly being a little flip.

THERAPIST: Fair enough, yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I fear that it doesn't matter, as you were completing the frame.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The thoughts that were in my head were all about, you know, what happens even if I deliver it now.

[00:37:45]

Like are they going to be able to get to it and have I screwed it up already. You know, is there going to be a sense that I didn't deliver. You know, then some train of thought along the lines of well, like, alright so he's talking about this, meaning you —

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And now but, you know, it occurs to me that this whole discussion is kind of irrelevant because the question is whether I delivered or not. The question isn't what the —

THERAPIST: So there two questions. One is whether either of our work is worth anything.

CLIENT: Yeah, touché. (pause) Usually once says touché when somebody hits you. (laughter)

THERAPIST: (laughter)

CLIENT: It's not touché when you put your rapier into yourself.

[00:38:44]

THERAPIST: Well, I mean — (pause)

CLIENT: That's what I fear most right now.

THERAPIST: Okay, so I think touché probably is the right thing to say because I think this is this [mood you sometimes make]. I mean, a few minutes ago you were kind of like "hey, we don't know what's going on, this is new, it's different." Then you were like "maybe it's this thing with Jennie (ph) and the disconnection there is part of it which actually is like things before." And then we kind of independently hit on the same new thing and very quickly. And very quickly it's "well and so what?"

[00:39:49]

CLIENT: Well, that's the fear. I mean when I said the fear is somatically directly over a sense of well-being, that's it. So the well-being is "Oh, well that's interesting. I can look at this and I can call it for what it is, and I can say okay that might be it and that might be it and that might be it." And then the fear is that it's completely irrelevant because I just have this thing to do and either I can do it or I can't.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: What intrudes is the sense that the work of our conversations is moot.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Either or both, because —

THERAPIST: [So we're in tune] because again just a few minutes ago — this is tricky. Sorry. I need to be very clear what I'm making an argument about.

[00:40:49]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And actually it sounds like we're kind of the same page. A few minutes ago we were again both, I think, sort of feeling some sense of what's going on here. You can come in, you can talk about it, you can feel reassured. Yes, we both know that doesn't necessarily mean you can produce. But I had the feeling, maybe incorrectly so, that we're both seeing that as sort of a good thing and probably a stepping stone and something, as you pointed, out relates to the work we've done together.

And then now the other side of it really emerges very strongly, the sense that "well, maybe none of it is worth anything anyway and if I can't write, I can't write." So this is where I get to what I'm making an argument about which is that how you're experiencing this seems very much to do with what we're talking about.

[00:41:54]

CLIENT: I hope I'm experiencing this seems very much —

THERAPIST: One moment this seems helpful and sustaining and the next moment, eh, it's probably irrelevant.

CLIENT: So repeat what you just said a second ago. What seems very —

THERAPIST: One moment this, our interaction —

CLIENT: No, I got that.

THERAPIST: And the next moment —

CLIENT: The next moment it's less.

THERAPIST: — it seems probably irrelevant.

CLIENT: Irrelevant.

THERAPIST: Whatever we talk about probably is going to touch —

CLIENT: We're saying that that fluidity or lack of security is exactly what we're talking about here. That the same sort of loss of the conceptual frame that's making it difficult to write is in operation right here now. Okay.

THERAPIST: We need to stop.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'll see you on Friday.

CLIENT: Okay. I'll see you then.

END TRANSCRIPT