TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: All right. So in contrast to the state of affairs sometimes I vividly remember (laughs) what I think we were talking about, I'm very happy to (unclear). You had just – I'll recap for our purposes.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: You had a thought as I listened to you to try and get me some perspective or reassure me. I'm not sure quite how you thought about your intervention with regard to (unclear) my friend but you had said that it wasn't so bad what I did at which point I immediately thought to myself, ‘fuck, you know, I'm screwed,' or I have to run home and do this thing which is (cross talk) – [00:01:24]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So the thought that I think we kind of came up with between us was that there's some free-floating anxiety there at least. In other words the anxiety is kind of unmoored from the specific causes that I often attribute it to and it might be easier just to think about it directly. I guess we didn't get that far but maybe that's what (unclear) [00:01:56] – I won't prefigure the implications but that's kind of the thought that we left with. So just to continue the narrative a little bit, I finished that – I sent it off last night. I'd hoped to send it off yesterday morning but I had to spend the rest of the day working on it. We're having a kind of writing circle to talk about this and other things at 11 and the senior guy who's participating who I've been urging on Jack as a much better interlocutor in that these kind of flaky people that we've been working with, they read it and then really said he loved it and thought it was really good. So you know, that's the (unclear) rationalization (laughs) apparently. I mean it's relevant in so far as this always happens. I mean, you know, in other words like the anxiety, the state of anxiety is kind of part of the process, the creative process to some degree and I guess one of the questions I have – I'm just kind of free associating here, which is your method anyway. One of the thoughts I have about this is you know that it seems like part of what I'm hoping to get out of our process is some useful and kind of calm way of differentiating between what's just part of the process and what I need to mitigate a little bit and sort of change my approach to. In other words, some anxiety is always going to part of my process. I think that's clear. I mean if it – (laughs)

THERAPIST: Well, it's part of how people work.

CLIENT: It's also part of how people work; in particular it's really part of how I am in the world, generally. But specifically around the creative process. There's something about uncertainty that is an element of that's kind of scary. Not to get too abstract and schematic, but I always get freaked out when I'm supposed to produce something. I always feel really upset about it and you know, the extremity of it and the delays that sometimes result you know, in maybe more importantly, the sense of anguish that I feel about it, I would like to mitigate. The anxiety itself I think is probably, so I guess what I'm trying to say is that I want to kind of get more skilled at doing that kind of evaluation of what's reasonable or what feels like the right amount and what feels like too much. Does that make sense? Maybe you disagree with my ambition, but that's kind of what I'm hoping for. So, that's one thought. I'll let you respond to that.

THERAPIST: So, I had two thoughts about what you were saying. The first thing that struck me is that what I was emphasizing the other day was consistent with what you described, remember, but my saying – but was, what you said was consistent with it but not the main point I was making actually?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Which was not just that when one anxiety reduces you go find another one really quick, but that in each case, at least the ones we were talking about the other day, you blame yourself and kind of feel like a bad actor and then it was when we sort of looked closer and actually you didn't seem to be so much that you found another situation in which you felt like a bad actor again.

CLIENT: So it's the bad actor-ness, it's not the feeling bad about the bad actor-ness.

THERAPIST: It's actually the relief from the bad actor-ness that makes you, it seems to me, that makes you anxious and seek out another situation.

CLIENT: Ha!

THERAPIST: You were very struck by this the other day I think.

CLIENT: The relief from the bad actor-ness feel anxious.

THERAPIST: In other words, it was when we first – it wasn't just like, ‘oh, you don't have to be anxious about how you were the other day, oh my God, I'm anxious about writing.' It was, ‘hey, you know it really wasn't so much your – you weren't as much of a douche bag as you felt like.' And then you were like, ‘oh my God, but I'm such a loser over here. You know, I'm screwing up so badly over here I've really got to get to that.' It seemed to – I mean this is one example, but there were littered throughout the session where you felt like you're the bad guy and it was when you kind of had some relief from that you moved to (cross talk) (unclear). [00:07:34]

CLIENT: Okay. So I was (unclear) and this is the second thing I was going to say. But fair enough, you've got some important (cross talk)

THERAPIST: And then it sort of strikes me that you forget that part and you say, ‘look, I really need some skills here because –

CLIENT: I see. That's my usual fallback position is I'm tired of all this like whatever. I just want some skills.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I don't know if it's true. CLIENT: (Laughs) (Unclear) from my life. [00:08:00]

THERAPIST: It doesn't quite feel like there is this, I mean I was wondering if it was consistent with what would actually happen where you feel –

CLIENT: I know exactly – I mean I remember vividly our exchange. I can tell you precisely –

THERAPIST: What I'm wondering is whether you're feeling like you didn't have enough skills was another way you (unclear) feeling (unclear). [00:08:26]

CLIENT: Oh. I don't know, maybe. I mean, so I was thinking about it afterwards and I think I had your, something closer to your formulation or immediately in my mind at the time your ideas shifted a little bit over the last two days, but I don't think it's that surprising. It's like you have something that you're kind of upset about – you have two things that you're kind of upset about. One of them has higher priority, at least I started with it when we were talking about it. You know, I could have, I was thinking about this writing process and just feeling really bad about it as I was coming in but I decided to lead with my friend. So there are two things that I'm kind of feeling uptight about. I lead with one of them. You reassure me. I feel better. I'm like, ‘oh, okay, that's been on point two, you know door number two.' Why does it have to be some very elaborate psychological mechanism? Because you suspect me of (laughs) (unclear)? [00:09:36]

THERAPIST: What is it that you think – that's one of them. (Laughs)

CLIENT: I think you're (unclear) (both laughing) [00:09:49]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Also I guess I sort of reassured you but – I mean I hope I did in a way but that wasn't really my main point. My main point was like that I was struck by how you sort of cast it one way but then as the details emerge, it looked very different. I mean what you originally – I mean that was another sort of example of it as we were talking was to sit here and say like, "you know she told me she broke up with her boyfriend and you know the first thing out of my mouth was, ‘yeah, I kind of thought that was going to happen.'" Or, "oh yeah, I thought that might be –'

CLIENT: Well, yeah. I mean –

THERAPIST: And then you said –

CLIENT: Look, I can't quite tell if this whole thing or some of it, or what portion of it is kind of a mind fuck. Not a mind fuck like she's a bad person, but a mind fuck – maybe that's not the right word even, just like you know she's upset about something and you know she's feeling kind of mistreated and she feels like people don't like her boyfriend so, her ex-boyfriend so to the extent that since she can't talk to them about what she's really mad about which may be him, but she won't tell anybody exactly what happened, she certainly won't tell me exactly what happened, so you know, so she's looking to get angry at me and maybe she just kind of adjusted the situation a little bit. You know, it's hard, I mean I think what I take from what you say that I really agree with is that it's hard for me to unpack what, you know, my tendency to feel like things are my fault from people's own process but I can see them. It's hard for me to kind of do the evaluation but I can certainly – this analysis is not something that just occurred to me this moment. So I don't know. I forgot my point. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (Laughs) What was my point? Sorry. I guess I'm a little goofy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What were you trying to say again? I've lost (laughs) (unclear). [00:12:06] This must happen to you at times as well. I sure you're a little more adroit at dealing with it.

THERAPIST: (Both laughing) Well let's go with what comes to mind.

CLIENT: Okay. What comes to mind? What comes to mind is I'm feeling kind of happy. I'm (laughs) I'm enjoying – I guess, I mean I'm taking this very seriously. I take our interactions, obviously, very seriously and I'm taking this particular conversation I think it's important, but I feel a kind of sense of humor this morning. What else comes to mind, more substantively?

(Pause): [00:12:46 00:13:03]

CLIENT: This interaction with my friend, she's really blaming me for various stuff and she's – like I in our, in the context of our interaction at least, I became in a way that was totally surprising to me and may or may not have been to some significant degree merited kind of the kind of apotheosis of her friends who think her ex-boyfriend was a schmuck.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And you know, that really, that perspective and attitude really hurt her and at the end of this relationship that hurt was sort of concentrated and I got it. And that was shocking to me for various reasons partly because I had not remembered the episode that apparently launched it, but also because it was like the realization of this great fear of mine which is that somebody else's misfortune or unhappiness or satisfaction I will at fault, I will be blamed. I will be blamed and I think what's really upsetting to me about this particular situation kind of the, as the quintessence of what's upsetting is that I can't separate it out. That's really the problem. That's really what makes me feel so just sort of anguished about these things is I can't distinguish, or I feel very incapacitated in my attempt to sort of ascertain what's mine and what's somebody else's. You know, so the default position is just to feel like it's all my fault or that none of it is my fault and in neither case I don't really have any confidence that that evaluation will be reasonable or defensible or something that I can sort of hang my hat on. So I think I mean that's a pretty good analysis I think of the way that I feel about this interaction. Now, this business about –

THERAPIST: It's interesting after you say that I think of you just forgetting your point a few items ago. CLIENT: Sure. There was some Freudian (unclear) [00:15:43]

THERAPIST: Well, but it was right as we were – right as you were engaged in this very process of trying to figure out what was yours, what was heir's, what's my take. You know, it seems to me there's probably something more precise than this going on but in a general way it's just what you were referring to as having difficulty with that you were trying to do when you forgot where you were going. I'm not sure what else to say about it, but it –

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I mean my metaphor or analogy for this is the time's probably greater than five that I've been running and I just completely forget where I am. You know, it's like I don't know what's mine, I don't know what's hers. I don't really know what the map is. I'm not – I've just lost myself in this interaction and now the sort of flow between one person and the other is made very difficult and painful by the fact that they're feeling bad. So if somebody else feels bad how do I separate myself out from that? How do I locate myself? How do I locate where I am? I think that's kind of it. You know I was talking with [Jennie] (ph) last night, maybe the night before last, about my mom who, I mean she's – no I think that it began by saying, by [Jennie] (ph) saying you know that she can't tell whether my mother is brilliant or just completely stupid because her capacity to lose the thread, to just engage in these acts of complete inattention is so extreme. She'll just like just lose her – you know leave her keys and her scarf, you know not, which is just a kind of spatial manifestation of something that's much more profound I think and I was saying, ‘well, imagine growing up with her.' And you know, whatever, whatever this is – this is, that's part of it clearly. I mean there's something about attaching to somebody who's so spacey, just sort of constitutionally that – so anyway, we were talking about this and I've lost the thread again. So, losing the thread twice is probably significant or a sign of hypoglycemia.

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: What was I saying?

(Pause): [00:18:55 -

CLIENT: Once again it was not complete diversion from the point. I just lost myself. We were talking – oh yeah, about where one is and where the self is and where other is and you know, what happens. So I mean when the other person, the person you're interacting with is such, is feeling such strong emotion, I don't know, I mean I think I have a hard time differentiating myself from that and I think that – I don't know – the speculative mechanism for this in this – I'm getting all tangled up. Maybe because it's not really the point. The etiology in early childhood development is probably not really the point, or is it something that one can specify with any precision, so I don't know. But that's what I think of. That's what comes to mind. That is what came to mind at the very least as I was thinking about the difficulty figuring out what's my fault and what is somebody else's feeling bad. I feel retarded which is another way of feeling bad I guess, but I really feel handicapped in my effort to say, ‘well, you know, it's not my fault. That's just not me. That's not mine. That's yours.' And,' I can be empathetic to you, but I'm not going to take it on.'

THERAPIST: I think you worry I'm going to find a way to put it back on you and that makes you nervous.

CLIENT: No. Put what back on me?

THERAPIST: Being your fault?

CLIENT: Why would I fear that you would put it back on me? You've been very nice about it.

(Pause): [00:21:03 00:21:10]

THERAPIST: I don't know why you would, it just seems that –

(Pause): [00:21:14 00:21:22]

THERAPIST: – and this is just where we were the other day, the moment both in here and that you describe out of here where you lose your chain of thought or you stop dead are when –

(Pause): [00:21:35 00:21:43]

THERAPIST: – I think when you're kind of saying, ‘it's not my fault,' in one way or another.

(Pause): [00:21:53 00:22:02]

THERAPIST: But I think there's something that makes you nervous about saying that.

(Pause): [00:22:05 00:22:10]

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't, I have no conscious sense of being worried that you're going to put blame on me and I feel actually fairly uncomplicatedly sanguine, whatever the word is about this interaction, frankly. And have, you know it's like we had an e-mail exchange over the course of the following day or Tuesday or whatever it was and initially I was shocked just that I was being cast in this role and I might in some measure at least have deserved it. But at the end of the day I felt okay about it. We had an exchange. She kind of said I felt like I had behaved honorably and conceded too much in (unclear) [00:23:17] whatever. (Laughs) Reading through this e-mail exchange but I felt like my interactions were right. I kind of asserted that I was really caring and I didn't have any dog in this fight, etc., and she reminded me, whether accurately or no, of this interaction we'd had four years ago, whatever, and I expressed remorse for that although I stressed that I actually didn't remember the exchange happening exactly that way and she said, ‘well you know I'm really mad and I'm hurt but I'll get over it,' and I said, ‘well you know you're friendship is very precious to me and I'm glad it's all out in the open,' and that was the end of it. It's like, what are you going to do. So I don't feel like any residual sense of blame and I certainly – whatever. I feel that she's blamed me for something but we talked about it and she said she's mad and she was hurt and I said, ‘I'm sorry,' and that's it and I don't feel like tortured about it and I certainly don't feel like you're blaming me for it, so I'm not totally sure exactly what you mean in this particular instance. The broader question there's certainly an issue of why I just had these two brown outs in the space of five minutes. So that's (laughs) (unclear) the question. But as referred, in this particular incident and my conscious sense of how we're interacting about it I don't feel afraid of you blaming me. So it must be something else.

(Pause): [00:24:50 00:25:27]

THERAPIST: To be clear, that wasn't the incident I had in mind.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: The thing that preceded the most recent brown out was your sort of saying you got this from your mother. CLIENT: Oh! Okay. So I would be blaming me, you would be blaming me for what?

THERAPIST: Well it seemed that it was when you were talking about how she's kind of like this, or she can be absent minded or she can lose the thread, I understood and maybe not clearly you to be saying that maybe you got this from her or –

CLIENT: No, that's not exactly what I was saying. I mean, what I was saying was that when you, the train of thought anyway which might not have been completely on point, but that was what came to mind, was that when you're earliest interactions are with someone who just doesn't function at – sometimes on an erratic basis, you know on a really important level there's a cost. It's not so much that there's a direct relationship between something I do and something my mother does let alone like parrot-ability, it's just that these kinds of interactions really effect in particular, I think, the way you differentiate yourself from other people. It's kind of an abstract thought. It's less something that I'm worried about blame for or feel consciously anguished about then that that's – I kind of try and figure out why I get so het up about this stuff and that is a thought that often comes to mind and it comes to mind very – right now because we just had a conversation about it. So, I don't know. I don't see this blame mechanism at work there although again clearly there was some sort of mode – I mean I think my understanding of our model or your model, or the model that we talked about is that these things, these brown outs, or these dissociations are the product of, or reaction to some stronger emotion.

THERAPIST: Sure. Sure, I might say like to the anxiety (cross talk)(unclear). [00:28:09]

CLIENT: Some strong emotion of anxiety. So there's something that I was very anxious about that intervened and made me lose the thread there. I don't think it's so hard to think about what might have produced that anxiety. I mean I'm talking about very difficult and recurring patterns, so I don't know. I'm not sure it's exactly on point of my conversation, that's what I'm saying. It might just be, you know, it might be a coincidence that there were two brown outs in the space of five minutes and one of them more directly related to this question of blame and the other of them more related to residual sense of – sense of what as a result of all of these childhood interactions. You know it's upsetting to think that all of your relationships with your mother were kind of distorted by some real cognitive strangeness. It's an upsetting (unclear), it's not trivial. [00:29:25]

(Pause): [00:29:28 00:29:43]

CLIENT: I don't worry that you'll blame me for that or in general. I'm not – one of the reasons I think that our, we've been productive in our interactions is that I feel a pretty strong sense of your benevolence.

(Pause): [00:29:56 00:30:01]

CLIENT: We've got that going for us.

THERAPIST: Good.

(Pause): [00:30:04 00:30:18]

CLIENT: Something that comes to mind like completely out of the blue. I don't want to divert – we have a train of thought here which I'm not sure (laughs) (unclear).

(Pause): [00:30:30 00:30:37]

CLIENT: So [Jennie] (ph) told me something and I probably mentioned this before but I'm just remembering it now for whatever it's worth. I'll be sleeping and she'll come back to bed from working or whatever and I will totally flip out. And I'll wake up in the night and I'll be screaming a lot. And I heard her say that and I had a fantasy which I've had not infrequently in the past which is that maybe all of this is just some trauma that we've still haven't identified. I don't know. And I don't think there's any real way to know that. I don't know, but it freaks me out a little bit.

THERAPIST: (Unintelligible) [00:31:34]

CLIENT: That report is very upsetting to me. And I'm not sure what to do about it. I'm not sure what the right way to take that information in. Like I don't think that just happens. Maybe it does, but I don't think it just happens. And if it doesn't just happen, if there's some cause of it, then I feel like you know without getting some more clarity on what's going on, a lot of this stuff is going to continue to be difficult.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So anyway, this is almost disembodied but that's what came to mind.

(Pause): [00:32:16 00:33:36]

THERAPIST: Does anything else come to mind?

CLIENT: (Laughs) Fuck you. (Laughs) What comes to mind, I mean, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Why are you responding in –?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Why am I pissing you off? CLIENT: You're not pissing me off. I just, I just, I don't know. I mean I realize it was out of the flow of the discussion so maybe that makes it hard, but –

(Pause): [00:33:59 00:34:04]

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know why that made me mad. It's a good question. It's probably (laughs) the next relevant question. It did though.

THERAPIST: Evidently.

CLIENT: You should do something about this.

THERAPIST: I guess so.

(Pause): [00:34:14 00:34:18]

CLIENT: At least give me some, I don't know, relevant thoughts about it. It's extremely –

THERAPIST: I been giving you relevant thoughts all hour and you've been telling me they're all wrong. (Laugh)

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Chuckles)

CLIENT: No. (Laughs) (Unclear). [00:34:29]

THERAPIST: Yes, you have.

CLIENT: (Laughs) I've been saying that I'm not, I don't fear you blaming me. But that's –

THERAPIST: That's the most recent one in everything I said today.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Has been wrong (laughs).

THERAPIST: What comes to mind: ‘fuck you. (Laughs)

CLIENT: Okay. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: (Laughs) I mean it started with my saying, "no, I was trying to make another point the other day and you were like, ‘No, no, no! I mean yeah, I guess I kind of remember that. No, no, no, no, really what I think I need is this: ‘okay, well then I think that's connected to this. ‘No, no, no, no, that's not connected. No, no, no, no.' Okay." (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:35:11 00:35:21]

CLIENT: Okay. What else comes to mind? I don't know what to do with this.

(Pause): [00:35:26 00:35:32]

CLIENT: That's what comes to mind. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to think about it. I don't know, I feel –

THERAPIST: Well, let's assume that you're giving me the finger because I think you feel like I'm kind of putting it – when I asked you ‘what comes to mind?' it's like asking you to do the work and putting it back on you. And your wanting something from me that I'm not offering you; you wanting some insight, some help, some direction, something which I am not at that moment providing but instead I'm asking you.

(Pause): [00:36:08 00:36:14] THERAPIST: There's some way that you feel like I'm sticking it to you or putting things back on you asking you that question. I'm not sure why that is.

CLIENT: I understand your approach. (Laughs) And I think it's better – (cross talk)

THERAPIST: I'm not sure I (cross talk) –

CLIENT: – for me to be the one to kind of tease things out so that you're not putting you know, some thought in my head. I mean, I don't know. I should be doing the work. This is my work.

THERAPIST: For me that's not for me that's not what's going on at all.

CLIENT: Then tell me what's going on.

(Pause): [00:36:44 00:36:58]

THERAPIST: I suppose I, I mean I didn't have any thought. I wasn't sure what to say. I mean I've been getting "no" all hour and I was wondering why or you know, I was like, ‘does he not want to see something?' or am I just kind of barking up the wrong trees?' So, I'm sort of thinking about that, but I'm not going to say I have this interesting thought about you know the fantasy about some kind of trauma that we haven't looked at and you know you seem to have a little bit of that, like you know, a little bit of a push on me again and I'm like, so we need to get some clarity on these things, but not a lot, it was very mild and yeah, I didn't know what to do with it. It wasn't that I didn't think it was important or that I felt like it was off the wall. I just wasn't sure yet how to put it together with things or what to say about it so yeah, it's kind of like I'm just sort of waiting for more data or whatever and clearly, you're – of what you're describing your model as being is as though I know a bunch of stuff but I'm sort of thinking, I think it's (unclear) vegetables or something, like it's better for you to figure it out. [00:38:19] And that's not actually where I'm coming from. You know if I know something I'm actually happy to tell you.

CLIENT: So it's not so much that you know something.

THERAPIST: Or I have an idea, I mean, more accurately.

CLIENT: It's not so much that you have an idea. I don't think that's the premise, but it's more that this kind of – you know, I'm not asserting this, I'm just explaining. Just that this is kind of the way that you operate. This recurring exhortation is about trying to let me kind of go as far as I can with something. I don't feel –

THERAPIST: No, that isn't what I'm doing. I'm not trying to let you go as far as you can.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: If you're sitting in a discussion where people want your opinion and you heard stuff that maybe makes you think, but you sort of don't quite have something to say yet, you might just need to hear more. It's really much more like that.

CLIENT: Okay. Well, that's helpful. That is helpful.

THERAPIST: I mean I think that's actually, I think a quite different model than the one you have in mind.

CLIENT: I agree. I agree. Yes.

THERAPIST: And that – here's something I do think. That is probably quite salient that your idea is that I'm kind of, it was more like being at the gym where – this is my kind of caricature of what you're saying. I'm kind of like a trainer and you're on the treadmill and you're like, ‘okay, what's the next exercise?' I'm like, ‘why don't you keep running for a few minutes,' or it's as if I can kind of push you a little more to do a little more and it will be good for you and only then will I have something. It sounds like it feels a bit more like that to you. That's probably salient.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I think it is salient. And I think we're winding down. But my thought –

THERAPIST: We have a few minutes.

CLIENT: My thought as you were talking was that I was completely aware – unaware that I had rejected everything that you had – I mean this sense which in retrospect I can see it, but I was just totally oblivious to it. And that seemed interesting to me also. You know, on the one side there are two parts of it. You know I had this perception that I've had for most of the time that we've been working together. You know that this was really kind of about training. So I missed something important or misperceived something important and on the other hand I just missed something very significant – I don't know if it's very significant, but just something that is relevant in human interaction. (Laughs) If you're being very resistant, like consistently resistant to somebody – I don't think I was being resistant in a nasty way, but you know it sounds like it was consistent (both laugh) and in a very obvious way and I was just completely unaware of it. I had no sense that I was –

THERAPIST: Right. CLIENT: – orienting myself toward you for the duration of our conversation in this matter.

THERAPIST: And I guess, I'm not sure this is a feeling that ties these both together but I imagine it might be which is why I mention it, but it's as though there's kind of and in a kind of unconscious or half-conscious level, something that feels more like a struggle going on between us that – let me be very clear – I know well that that's obviously not your only experience with things here. It's not sort of basically how you think about me as kind of struggling with you and pushing, but I guess it's part of what's interesting is that maybe there is a dimension there, an aspect of that that you feel that you're sort of half aware of or that kind of affects things without either of our being clear that it is, you know, like –

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah! Well, I think that there's a larger issue, too, which is that I find myself identifying tensions of this genre a lot. I find myself kind of understanding myself to be in conflict with somebody a lot, or just like looking for the conflict, like looking for the tension, and maybe that's just the way people are. I mean it's a reasonable expectation of how one interacts with another person. That may also be true, but you know, sometimes it really, when I'm very anxious or feeling very upset that shades into something really kind of paranoid I think, and (cross talk)

THERAPIST: It reminds me a little bit of, I just happened to think, but what you were saying about what happens at night.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah! Or, [Jennie] (ph) will come to bed and I'll just go, ‘ARGH!'

THERAPIST: Right. Like you're scared or struggling or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, that's a thread to pick up. A thread to pick up. All right. Yes. That is a thread to pick up. (Both laugh) All right.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: I will see you on Wednesday. (Cross talk) Same to you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Bye-bye.

THERAPIST: Bye-bye.

END TRANSCRIPT