TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So on Wednesday we were talking about, I guess, (unclear) managing, trying to manage my feelings in this new work setting. That's what I remember of the conversation anyway. And I was describing it and you'd asked whether I felt embarrassed to tell this, to narrate this to you at one point. And I thought about it and didn't feel any such thing. I was happy to talk about it. Then as I was leaving something else came to mind which was this interaction that I'd had with Kevin on the way out and I talked about this and I realized that I felt for the first time in our conversation really, uncomfortable telling it to you. I felt uneasy about it. And indeed a little embarrassed. I thought that was interesting as a point to jump off.

(Pause): [00:02:12 [00:02:22]

CLIENT: So what I remember saying (cross talk)

THERAPIST: It was really a question of stuff you were going to get to because you had mentioned, I think, a couple of conversations with Kevin so I just wasn't sure which.

CLIENT: Well, last week on Friday I'd said that everybody was in the retreat and we had this talk at this time and I was uncomfortable with it in reflecting on it afterwards, I think for a couple of reasons: 1., this is a very long term relationship and there are all sorts of complexities relating to my family and kind of my work process and my sort of career trajectory and all of these things and for a variety of reasons, some of which I don't totally understand, he's played a pretty big role in that. So I think what was the zone of embarrassment which may be the most interesting part of it rather than ah historical or analytic part of it, is that I felt dependent and it was like what I was talking about was my reconciliation with this authority figure who is able to kind of make or break somebody. When I write to somebody and say I'm working on X for President Feeney I mean they fall all over themselves to address it in a way that any objective sense I'm in touch with is kind of weird and unsightly. I don't know I'm struggling for an adjective or an adverb here. I mean it's just, it's servile. It's servile and this sense of being very pleased because for apparently arbitrary reasons or even worse, reasons that have to do with how satisfied Kevin is that I will do appropriate deference to him I'm kind of back in the fold. That was my sense as I was leaving. That makes me uncomfortable. That's also like being satisfied with that is also servile.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Now, I mean this is a very instrumental and kind of systematic way of looking at it, and I think one of the things I was talking about on Wednesday was just this sort of, this schematic frame of reference, or way of seeing the world that I snap into when I'm angry or anxious, you know, sort of managing emotions that are difficult for me. So you know there's complexity there's interpersonal complexity as I say there's a long-term relationship, there's affection on both sides I think. So this is an incomplete aspect but it's there and I think that's what I feel. Like I certainly don't feel embarrassed about interpersonal aspects. You know I don't feel embarrassed about -

(Pause): [00:06:13 00:06:21]

CLIENT: I feel embarrassed about the sense of buying into this hierarchical structure that feels distorted or [in] (ph) genuine or what have you and I mean the added complexity is that to describe functioning within a hierarchical environment as servile which I think is probably my default attitude, is really kind of crippling if one isn't completely opted out of regular bourgeois society. In other words, I think one element of that discomfort and embarrassment is maladjustment, frankly, or at least a difficulty adjusting to the usual kinds of institutional settings and relationships that one has to function within in our peculiar cultural setting. So, there's a lot going on there but the discomfort really, really seemed evocative to me.

(Pause): [00:07:42 00:09:00]

CLIENT: One more thought here I don't want to interrupt your train of thought here, but -

THERAPIST: No, no, go ahead.

CLIENT: you know, just the anger that I was talking about in relation to this kid -

THERAPIST: Steve?

CLIENT: Steve, right. Well remembered. I mean as I think about it it's exactly the same or some homologous anger directed at myself when I think about this interaction with Kevin. In other words, it's really, it feels genetically related in some way. In other words, there's something common, there's some common denominator between my sense of anger at this kid machinations and ambition and my sense of discomfort and embarrassment as I survey my interaction with Kevin and my attempt to repair a relationship that was damaged to some degree by my previous inability to proceed.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I can imagine it might feel like there's a similar careerism and servility as in the kind of ambition and sort of machinations that pissed you off.

(Pause): [00:10:44 00:11:00]

CLIENT: So.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so. I mean I'm trying to think it out here. It feels very large what I'm diving into right now. I'm not, I don't feel as articulate about it, just sort of, it's incompletely chewed or digested I guess, but yeah, there's something significant there. Like a lot of things touch on this moment, on this interaction.

(Pause): [00:11:30 00:14:23]

THERAPIST: Maybe you're sort of trying to ward off some pretty intense feelings of dependence that you are pretty embarrassed about.

CLIENT: Yes! I think that's true. I think that's true and yet so that's part of it, I guess and it's I mean dependence isn't a problem if you feel kind of effective. In other words, you know, one could be dependent on someone else and yet still be very productive and feel good about how you're willing to produce. You just, you know, you need assistance. But I think the problem is when I feel as if I could not otherwise navigate at all you see what I'm saying? In other words, it's one thing to be dependent, it's another thing to be purely dependent.

THERAPIST: I see. CLIENT: And I think what feels embarrassing is the sense of being purely dependent.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know to rely on somebody is one thing. To be unable to but rely on somebody and something else, so that's one thing. But the other thing I think is really just this sense it's not a sense of maladaption, it's a maladaption. It's like a maladaptation which you know, just the sense of hierarchical interactions like this being wrong that you know, interacting with someone as a friend is one thing, interacting with somebody as a superior or even an inferior for that matter is something else. And even these hierarchical games like the ones that this kid Steve is playing are somehow distasteful which of course makes it very difficult to play these hierarchical games and yet that's the setting that I've entered so there's an element of kind of self-sabotage in orienting myself in this place. So, you know, there's a kind of personally, you know, there's a level of I don't want to devalue one and prefer the other, but you know there's the level of kind of my personal process on the one hand and then there's the level of the institution on the other and at both levels, I think I'm having trouble dealing with these conditions of dependency and patronage, I guess.

(Pause): [00:17:56 00:18:00]

CLIENT: I mean I can see why you would emphasize on the first of them because you know, there's more process to be had there, I guess. You know, there's more sort of psychologically interesting material in there but I think that both of them are really, are actually kind of important.

THERAPIST: It seems to me that the way this is has been kind of playing out here at the moment is in terms of your, it seems to me, like working to sort of maintain a fairly firm control over the model building and the model like, I'm not saying this is bad or that it's not sort of constructive, but I think that the way that (unclear) me you're a little bit in your head about it at the moment and kind of laying out in a sort of (unclear) smooth and conceptual and complex way the kind of model of the framework that goes along with this, does also in part help you to manage those kind of feelings.

CLIENT: That's true. I mean sure, we've seen this a lot. But I mean that doesn't mean that it's not [coping] (ph). (Laughs) I don't have any either. It's like we want to know what's going on so on the one hand you're right. I freely admit that theory building or model building is relaxing to me. No, seriously. Like, you know, it's but it's relaxing to everybody. Like everybody at some level gets some satisfaction from saying, 'oh, well, that's what's going on.' [00:19:52]

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: I have many, you know, (laughs) kind of cross section that I -

THERAPIST: I think a lot of people do.

CLIENT: Okay. Look. Fine. So maybe many, but many people do and I guess, you know, I mean, it just feels important to me that I'm among other things struggling with like how to be in a work place. You know, like one of the very I mean like it's true and it's true probably that I want to assert some control over the model building and so there's a tug of war between us on this front. But I'm not disagreeing with you. I mean, I don't know, you said I'm trying to assert some control over the model building. That was what you said.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Those were your words.

THERAPIST: Similar words.

CLIENT: Okay. So it's probably true but it feels like it's important to figure out what's going on.

THERAPIST: (Chuckles)

CLIENT: So you're saying both things are true.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Look at it (unclear). [00:21:14]

CLIENT: I guess that's a little defensive.

THERAPIST: I guess so.

(Pause): [00:21:20 00:21:58]

THERAPIST: I guess I'm trying to think about -

(Pause): [00:21:58 00:22:15] THERAPIST: well, I think -

(Pause): [00:22:15 00:22:35]

THERAPIST: I imagine you felt that what I said sort of -

(Pause): [00:22:38 00:22:46]

THERAPIST: posed a threat to the sort of activity that was helping you feel reassured.

CLIENT: No. But what you said, I thought you said was consistent with and facilitated the activity that was making me feel more relaxed.

(Pause): [00:23:15 00:23:23]

THERAPIST: Well, I guess to me that doesn't explain why you so vigorously defended it pointing out the thing about it that I had also said that (unclear). [00:23:40] So I said, 'hey, look, I know model building is constructive when it's done right and it's a good thing, but I think it also serves another function for you.' And you said as I heard it, 'of course I'm model building,' like, 'of course it's (unclear), but what else am I going to do?' You know, like, 'who doesn't like to feel like they know what's going on?' And then you said, 'maybe I'm being a little, you know,' but you also said, 'ay,' and you said, 'maybe I'm being a little defensive about it.' So then I'm wondering what would have made you defensive? And it was as though I was telling you, you know, well this isn't mostly about being constructive or this isn't okay to be doing because you're avoiding this other thing and that was a piece of what I was saying, although I was not -

CLIENT: So it's no, this is good. I hear so much, 'oh, you know, you're so good,' it's not framed in exactly this way, the 'oh, you know, you're so prone to abstractions; oh, you're so prone to abstracting, oh, you know, this model, this is a model, it's schematic, it's abstract, you know, people,' and I hear that like ad nauseum, like literally and to me it's very frustrating because what does that even mean? What does it mean to say, 'well, you know, like this is very sophisticated,' as if it's a put down. You know like my attempts to express the level on which I'm seeing things is so often met with, it's not just weird, it's not just incomprehension, it's like resentment. And to me like the analysis is actually useful and accurate, an interesting representation of reality and I don't know, I guess I have some frustration with the fact that people kind of can't understand it or won't understand it or don't enjoy discussing things on that level. I guess. I mean I find it both relaxing, as you pointed out, and kind of enjoyable and a relief and useful and I do feel like I have to defend it.

THERAPIST: The problem you had is, I mean, I think consistent with what you're saying. The problem you have clearly is not on that level. It's with these feelings of dependence that you feel so ashamed of that when something triggers them you get paralyzed.

CLIENT: (Whispers) Paralyzed.

THERAPIST: [Like at work] (ph) [you can see] (ph). [00:26:52]

CLIENT: (Sigh)

THERAPIST: And -

(Pause): [00:26:57 00:27:10]

THERAPIST: This is what you're sort of, how what you're talking about today relates to a lot of other things we've talked about. You know, you're saying what's really uncomfortable for me is that feeling of being so dependent that you can't function without being (unclear phrase) [00:27:29] without a sense of security in that connection.

(Pause): [00:27:34 00:27:51]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And -

(Pause): [00:27:51 00:28:24]

THERAPIST: And maybe I didn't get it right before. Maybe the issue you know that you were theorizing for multiple purposes among them to make sense of what's going on and to move away from some of them maybe that's not the right way to think about it. Maybe what's more accurate is you seem to theorize away from the kind of stuff like I just said and more into like external factors that contribute to the dilemma that you're having which are important but I think -

CLIENT: Look, I think I've I mean in this, if this is our example, if this is the case study, I think I was theorizing away from it, I was just trying to kind of understand the various things that were going on in this interaction that might have made me uncomfortable. I mean it was more like, 'all right, well you know, let's look at this event and so, yeah, I like the analysis. I think that that connection is important. The association between these different things that we have talked about is important and useful. But I don't think that I was evading it. And I feel as if right now even you're in a slightly different way also saying contrary to your previous presentation that this is kind of value neutral observation about me feeling defensive, you're saying, 'well, you know this abstract analysis was whether intentionally or unintentionally, you know, pitched to a vague real issue which is this thing we've been digging into.'

(Pause): [00:30:07 00:30:13]

CLIENT: That's what it felt like to me originally that you were saying which is why I was defensive.

(Pause): [00:30:15 00:30:30]

THERAPIST: I do think that somehow you're doing both at the same time. Theorizing and evading. And that doesn't mean theorizing is bad.

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, it's not productive I guess for me to (laughs) to defend myself on this score, but I (cross talk) I don't feel evasive. I don't feel evasive of the sensation. Let me put it that way. I mean, you know I feel like I don't, I'm pretty in touch with it. I can point to it in the last 24, 48 hours. I don't -

THERAPIST: It seems to me that in a way you haven't been feeling, you felt it like you were really frustrated, and more so than you afraid that you wanted to be at Steve for how he was behaving which -

CLIENT: And continues to behave.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not unexpectedly.

THERAPIST: (Laughs) Right. And -

CLIENT: Like I gave him a little piece and he's just like, you know, milking it for all it's worth and that's fine. You know, whatever, it's kind of no skin off my nose.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But, you know.

THERAPIST: But it's a bit of the displacement from the things you yourself are struggling with. I mean you're frustrated with him because he embodies something that in a different form you have and feel embarrassed about.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: I mean you're not -

CLIENT: Well, anybody in that environment has it. You have to do this. Is that what you mean?

THERAPIST: No. I mean, sort of. What I mean is, as much as you have ambition or careerism is that it's associated with this feeling of dependence that is very touchy and difficult for you.

CLIENT: Here's what I'm conscious of.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I would be perfectly happy to interact purely like I see this way of being, this environment, this kind of set of social mores, whatever, this hierarchy, as opposed to a setting in which you go to work with your friends and you operate in a purely collegial and obviously these two dichotomous pulls are not real phenomena.

THERAPIST: Right. Or (unclear). [00:33:11]

CLIENT: But anyways, I kind of see, I feel like I would be perfectly happy to operate within a work environment where everybody's friends and everybody looks out for everybody else and everybody kind of tries to promote the and in fact that to some degree I've been able to cultivate a network of people that do operate in that way with each other but it's always within a hierarchical environment and so what I've found is that I can't earn a living that way. You know, I can't support myself. I can't create a household. I can't have a wife and a child and a house and things that I want relying purely on this other model of social interactions. And so I have to operate in these hierarchical environments.

(Pause): [00:34:12 00:34:19]

CLIENT: And yet as soon as I do so I have to become this kind of person that operates in these hierarchical environments. I feel like I've moved away from the thread of the conversation but maybe I haven't. You know, I would really like I don't want to be this way but I feel like I've been kind of forced into it and that feels very difficult for me.

(Pause): [00:34:48 00:34:54]

CLIENT: Now on the other hand if I really wanted to operate more in this way than the other way, realizing that everything is a mixture of these two kinds of polarities, I could have stayed in Seattle, like there are a number of things that I could have done. I seem to have gravitated so careerism I seem to have gravitated toward environments, you know, Harvard, you know, whatever. The decisions I've made, you know, assuming I really do prefer operating in this kind of communal never-never-land -

THERAPIST: They're inconsistent with (cross talk) [00:35:30]

CLIENT: are completely consistent with decisions I've made. So I've just sort of intuitively without really necessarily being conscious of what I was doing, gravitated in this direction and yet was completely uncommitted to doing what one had to be able to function effectively in this environment.

(Pause): [00:35:47 00:36:13]

THERAPIST: Which seems to me to revolve around the sort of conflict between feeling much shakier about your sort of connection security, like attachment, and the shame you feel about how much you need to feel secure that way.

CLIENT: The decision I seem (cross talk) those separately and I don't see the association between them. I see both of those phenomena. I see this formulation of relationship between the shame and whatever and I think that that's great. I see what I was just talking about a moment ago and I don't see how they relate. How does this -?

THERAPIST: In the more collective, I thinking of (unclear) [00:37:26], in more collective mode you feel everybody's in it together and everybody's got each other's back -

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: and that's really reassuring. You don't have to worry that you don't have a place or that people are going to stab you in the back. When you step into the other environment that sense of security goes away -

CLIENT: That's right.

THERAPIST: and you worry all the time that somebody doesn't have your back and that you don't really have a place and that you are on very insecure footing, I think, and you also one reason that can be hard, the intensity of that worry about having a place and sense of being on shaky ground can be difficult to see, I think is because of the shame you feel about being so dependent like that.

CLIENT: The shakiness.

THERAPIST: So if for example when something happens that, you know, when you feel a tremor, like an earthquake metaphor, you know, on shaky ground, you feel a tremor when something happens in the environment, you know what I mean, and you start to feel some shakiness under your feet, you're response is not usually, not ever, 'oh my gosh, I feel so nervous, I don't know if I'm going to make it here.' I have to tell you, you say that but what really happens most of the time you say, 'I couldn't do the work I had to do, I shut down, I couldn't think, duh, duh, duh, duh, duh.' The reaction is largely unconscious. You make that this crazy fantasy they're going to fire you tomorrow which I know they're not going to do. But really the main thing is I can't get the project done. And it seems to me what gets in the way of your being clearer about what shaking you up is the shame about feeling so dependent and so sensitive to like smaller or larger [predervations] (ph). [00:39:40]

CLIENT: Yeah. And then feeling so anxious about the attachment.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Feeling so in need of support.

THERAPIST: And this happens in the, I don't know what to call the, more hierarchical environment, and it doesn't, (unclear) I never heard about you in one, but the way we're framing this, it doesn't happen in the collective environment.

CLIENT: Well the thing about a hierarchal environment that leaps to mind is being very distinct in this way from this other kind of interaction, is just that you get fewer opportunities for reassurance.

(Pause): [00:40:22 00:40:39]

CLIENT: And the reassurance is of lower quality.

(Pause): [00:40:39 [00:41:14]

CLIENT: So which is prior, the valorization of collectivity or my anxiety?

(Pause): [00:41:22 00:41:30]

CLIENT: Anyway, they go together. So I was ruminating over something because I was sitting downstairs. I get annoyed when you're late. And I guess I was thinking about it in the context of this longer conversation that we've been having. When I get annoyed, you know, often times it's sort of the flip side of feeling anxious about something. So what I was wondering was whether, you know, it's not clear that you're committed or that you're treating our interaction lightly or trivializing it. What was interesting was that after we had arrived I was feeling pretty annoyed, I was feeling pretty uncomfortable, let me put it that way you know once you got here and we exchanged a couple of pleasantries or whatever, you know, the sensation of discomfort went away. So you know there's something about the I still, I don't know, I still like at some level I don't know, I'm bad with this shit. I'm late sometimes although I will say that you're more (laughs) systematically late than I am. But the edge was gone.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So I guess the edge is interesting to me, a little bit, in this connection. I mean, the edge being off meant that we could have a productive interaction, that we could have a real exchange, etc., while I was still feeling this discomfort.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It was impossible to do so and yet the moral equation hadn't changed and you know the -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: whatever judgment I had about (cross talk) (unclear) [00:44:07]

THERAPIST: [I wasn't that late] (ph)

CLIENT: I had about you and [Ellen] (ph) wasn't, like it wasn't like I was less annoyed, however, like I could, it didn't matter from the standpoint of our interaction and you know, A., this is how I would like to be. I would like to be able to on the one hand, you know (laughs) say stop it; and on the other hand not feel so anguished about it that it's actually difficult to interact. And you know in the same way I would like both to be able to say, 'well, you know, this kid, Steve, is really kind of a snake.' (Laughs)

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: And you know, but like I probably want to block him as much as possible. (Laughs).

THERAPIST: (Laughs)

CLIENT: And yet not feel so kind of upset and deranged I think I was saying last Wednesday, you know, by the discomfort over this state of affairs that it comes (unclear). [00:45:00]

THERAPIST: We've got to stop.

CLIENT: We've got to stop.

THERAPIST: I'm sorry.

CLIENT: That's okay. (Laughs) That's okay. I accept your apology. (Laughs) I accept your apology. All right, so I will see you on Wednesday.

THERAPIST: All right. Take care.

CLIENT: Take care. Bye-bye.

THERAPIST: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT