TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (sigh) (pause)

THERAPIST: Good morning.

CLIENT: Good morning. (sigh) So we were in the middle of a thought on Wednesday. (pause) Maybe we should start every discussion with a play of the tape or something. [00:01:02]

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean I, uh (sigh) (pause) I think what I was struggling with a little bit was the usual (pause) sense of uncertainty or unease with the relationship between whatever is supposed to be therapeutic and whatever is just supposed to be analytical in all of this. In other words, I feel very suspicious you're going to say that this is just some sort of manifestation of my tendency to feel alienated from the process. [00:02:10]

But, you know, I think there is an actual struggle, in my mind at least, between our very well developed capacity between the two of us to come up with explanations and my somewhat underdeveloped capacity to use that to change the dynamics that are difficult about working and relating to people and so on.

In other words, explanation I feel, at these moments at least, I feel frustrated with, you know, the application of all of these conversations of ours. And I'm even willing to sign on to the idea that, you know, this concern is much stronger and more distinct at moments where I feel kind of disconnected from people. I think that's true. [00:03:26]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I think that analysis is good. But all the same -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (laughs) I mean, you know, there's kind of a basic structural tension in this process between understanding things and the process of understanding things. Even if they're both relating to each other in the process of understanding things. And, actually, you know, which ostensibly I came here to do. Which is not necessarily to understand them first and foremost, but [to intervene] (ph). (laughs)

So, I can't remember exactly how I formulated, how we had formulated it. And as a result, how I was thinking about it as I left.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know it was kind of a classic example on both fronts of my professional life right now, this Egypt project on the one hand, and the New York stuff on the other. You know, there was a task and I felt kind of disconnected and it was hard to do it. [00:04:35]

THERAPIST: And this is since Wednesday, you mean?

CLIENT: Since Wednesday. Yeah. And, you know, so I said I would do it Wednesday afternoon and it was really hard to do it. And, you know, I knew that I could see that it was hard to do it and I was struggling with it. And ultimately I ended up waking up early on Thursday morning and doing it yesterday morning. But it wasn't quite in time. Or at least it wasn't quite when I said that it would be.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And, you know, as I was struggling with it I was You know, this conversation that we had had was front and center. And it was clear to me that that was kind of the, you know, the rubber meets the road in the sense of being conscious about it as it's happening. And I'm not sure how much it helped, but it probably helped a little bit. [At least it calmed me down.] (ph) It was at least a familiar process. So that seemed positive. But still it was and is still kind of a struggle. [00:05:36]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I guess that's where I am. We had a very clear formulation on Wednesday and I can't quite recall it this morning. (ph) So what I remember is that we kind of arrived somewhere and then it was immediately, just as we had arrived there, literally it was time to go. That's a frustration. (pause)

And I think that works both for the process and against it in the sense that, you know, sometimes when it's interrupted it's good because I just kind of continue thinking about it in real life.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: And sometimes I think it's a hindrance as far it's hard to kind of cede (ph) it when I leave in midstream. It just doesn't stick as much. So, anyway, [I lost my ] (ph). (pause) [00:06:48]

I suppose we're taping them and we've never really exploited that too much. I can see not wanting to do that, but I suppose that's potentially a resource that one could call upon. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well one thing that strikes me, and I'm thinking about it is (pause) On the one hand you're saying like, "Hey, the insight is great and everything, but it's not really helping me to deal with much better with things." [00:07:54]

CLIENT: Okay. I mean, you gave "on the one hand" and I want to let you give "on the other hand." But that's not exactly what I said.

THERAPIST: Okay. Well, go ahead. Why don't you ?

CLIENT: I mean, I'm not saying it's not helping me. I'm saying that, you know, there's a tension there and I feel concerned about it. I mean, you know, in other words, on one level my presentation at least was one level of abstraction. I wasn't saying definitively it's not helping. In fact, I gave an illustration of my sense of how it could help even though I'm still struggling with it.

THERAPIST: I guess, why are you saying what (pause)

CLIENT: I mean, I see how it's supposed to work, I think. I mean I see how it could work.

THERAPIST: How is that?

CLIENT: A see what a mechanism for this to, you know, lead to some kind of therapy might be. [00:08:59]

THERAPIST: What is that? Because I may see it differently.

CLIENT: You may see it differently. I mean, I guess my sense is that by elaborating and becoming comfortable with or emotionally, you know, intimate with the sense of why I'm having some feelings or why, you know Or just sort of the recurrence or accretion of these kinds of dynamics.

I'll be able to see them in the moment and choose rather than, you know, compulsively or reflexively responding to the same events in the same way. That's the way I understand the mechanism. In other words, the only way to go, I think, from within this sort of laboratory space from an insight to some kind of behavioral or, you know, kind of emotional read (ph) for relation would be that. [00:10:12]

I don't see any other mechanism. I don't see another pathway. And I guess I kind of saw it in action a little bit in the sense that, you know, at least I wasn't as freaked out about it. And, you know, the fact that I felt, you know, very concerned about my relationship to the person that I was supposed to be delivering this too. As usual, as this happened on a number of times that we've reviewed.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Ad nauseam or ad infinitum, whichever comes first. You know, I could kind of see what was going on and say, "Well, you know, I'm still doing the same thing but it's pretty familiar and "

THERAPIST: [You aren't quite as in it.] (ph)

CLIENT: I wasn't quite as in it, got to deliver it, got up, wrote it, it was fine, and delivered it even though it wasn't as smooth or as productive as I would have liked it to have been. I still have all of these concerns and anxieties and senses of dislocation and what have you. But I don't I don't know. [00:11:23]

I guess what I'm trying to say is that what I see as the pathway is, you know, some relationship between the critical, you know, the ability to take a kind of critical stance toward them in this venue, and kind of familiarity with that sense of reflection or reflectiveness that hopefully gets more, you know, the cycle, the circle or process, irritive process gets more and more rapid to the point where I can actually do it in the moment.

I think that's the pathway. That's how I understand it. I don't see another one. I mean, if there is another one, please enlighten me. But I don't see it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a (pause)

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: It can sometimes be like that. But I don't think it's mainly, my sense is it's not mainly like that. It's a little more like (pause) [00:12:50]

[Per what we were talking about.] (ph) It's a little more like an exposure treatment. Let's say you're scared of spiders and you might run into a spider in the basement, you might run into a spider in the garage, you might run into a spider in the attic. And you're scared.

And so, you and I, first we look at pictures of spiders. And then like I bring in a whole bunch of spiders of the kind you might run into in little boxes. And then, you know, we open up the boxes and you like touch the spiders and let them crawl on you a little bit. And, you know, eventually, you're not so scared of the spiders.

And, you know, in not being so scared of them in here, naturally you're not so scared of them in the attic or the garage or the basement. So, you know, mainly there might be some aspect of it, especially at first or part of it where you're like standing in the garage going, "Okay. I saw those pictures. I saw them in the box. They didn't hurt me. It's okay." [00:14:13]

You know that there's a kind of a cognitive connecting going on. An appreciation of being in the same situation there as here and that it was okay, and that sort of thing. But mostly it's about, sometimes it doesn't involve that much thinking or active attending to. You know? Like there's a sort of a getting used to it that just kind of is the same thing. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Well, I mean that's more attractive to me because that feels more decisive. But I don't really see the analogy here. This feels more The object, if you're understanding this purely as an anxiety function and there's some specific object, I would like to know what it is because I don't really see how [00:15:14]

THERAPIST: Right, but -

CLIENT: The analogy implies a lot of precision as to the object of the anxiety, and I don't see that level of precision in my life.

THERAPIST: Well, I think I can explain it in an analogy, break it down a little bit. But not in a way I think that actually will cause us too much trouble. [For me] (ph) the issue is feeling disconnected from people or lacking a basic sense of -

CLIENT: Well, I mean, a spider is a spider. And like your, one's capacity for social relation is something else altogether. I mean how can you apply I don't understand how one can apply the same In other words, every therapeutic approach needs to appropriate to the object. So, I'm not totally understanding how this would work.

THERAPIST: Um.

CLIENT: And I guess I'm -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: One of the themes in our running tussle over this question is whether the spider in this setting is really similar enough to the other spiders in [the actual room.] (ph) [00:16:47]

THERAPIST: Galen (ph) you come in every week and you can't remember what we talked about two days ago -

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: Or the week before, where we were. And you're searching for it. And you feel like totally alienated and displaced because you not totally but somewhat alienated and displaced because you can't grab the thread. And you're searching for the thread. Even as you're telling me that the thread wasn't that helpful and you're not quite sure how the thread is going to be helpful.

You know, I think that there's something going on in here that's very similar to what's going on out there to do with feelings of having difficult working, having difficulty feeling located socially and in connection to people.

CLIENT: So that's really abnormal? Not being able to remember precisely what happened. (cross talking at 00:17:29)

THERAPIST: Well you've told me that it's not just about a kind of forgetting. I mean, you -

CLIENT: Well I agree with that, but I But you're The premise -

THERAPIST: told me that there is a sense of disconnection and distance -

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: that is quite alienating to you. And that is abnormal.

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: It is not very, it's not unusual for somebody to forget what happened. But it's a little more, it's a more superficial kind of forgetting I think. You know, it's still psychologically relevant and usually has to do with the anxiety of what came up. It's not, you know, sort of simple forgetting. But neither is it as profound, I think, as what happens with you. What you've told me happens with you. (pause)

CLIENT: I mean, I remember our exchange on Wednesday. I don't know if I had like some kind of profound amnesiac block. I remember more or less what we talked about. [00:18:35]

THERAPIST: I'm only going based on you telling me that (cross talking at 00:18:41).

CLIENT: (yelling) I know! I'm just saying I'm not -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What I remember -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (sigh) I'm feeling very argumentative this morning. I think, to be -

THERAPIST: I think that's the right word Part of this actually (cross talking at 00:19:00)

CLIENT: To be frank (sigh)

THERAPIST: Please.

CLIENT: I mean there's a process in feeling, like a very consistent process, in feeling alienated. Maybe even alienated isn't the right word, but feeling disconnected from people where I kind of scan our interactions to see, you know, if there is support for a thesis of disconnection that is -

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: In other words, that's exogenous.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: That either I have caused or that is, you know, independent of me.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Right, like -

CLIENT: But, you know, whose genesis is with somebody else. You know, I may have caused it but it's their decision. And it may be fair or it may not be fair. It may be my fault or it may not be my fault. But it's at the other person's initiative. [00:20:07]

THERAPIST: Like their wanting to fire you because you haven't done your work.

CLIENT: Maybe. Or maybe they're going to fire me because they're, you know, I don't know, conspiring against me -

THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:20:15)

CLIENT: or they're going to fire me because there's some independent process that I don't have any control over. But at this point, I have no control. I may once have had control but now I have no control. So, you know, obviously assuming that the spider functions in the same way in both establishments. In this it's just like an animatronics spider in this setting that doesn't really assist the actual spiders.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs) Assuming that to be the case, then I presume this dynamic also to be similar. And the thing that I scan the most.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So let me think of the various moments -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: at which I inspect our interaction. Which is restrictive enough that this kind of analysis is easily possible.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So one of them is when it's time -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It's moving on time to go. So when my sense is that we probably, you know, completed a therapeutic hour, you know, I begin to look at your responses much more critically. [00:21:27]

THERAPIST: Interesting.

CLIENT: And, you know, too -

THERAPIST: I would imagine you would have said, "Much more closely."

CLIENT: Critically, in the, you know, literary critical sense, not the critically in the sense of families.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: You know, more closely.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: More, you know, with more kind of distance. It's like I remove myself from the conversation and all of a sudden there's a specific question that I have in mind and I'm interrogating my sense of your engagement with regard to the question of whether I'm overstaying.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Okay, so that's one moment. Another moment I guess is, you know, when there are a couple of times that I've said things or I've related things that I'm kind of ashamed of, that I feel badly about.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: There's one not long ago I can't -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, your interaction (cross talking at 00:22:27)

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Like my kind of interaction with Kevin. My sense of dependency on him.

THERAPIST: Oh okay.

CLIENT: But, you know, there have been a couple of them where I felt bad.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And, you know, I remember feeling anxious, feeling concerned -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: about our connection as a result. But there's one very consistent one that takes me a little while to repair, which is when you're late. You know, when I'm sitting there The truth is that I probably could wait at the bench, you know, which would be more comfortable. But I don't, and I've wondered about that a little bit. And, you know, and I think that that is an interesting fact, that I usually stand -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: by the walk door in the dark (laughs) waiting for you.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:23:19]

CLIENT: It's a little bit of my mother in there, I suppose. But, you know, having brought it up explicitly on a couple of occasions, it's clear to me that this is something that, for at least the first ten minutes today, you know, has been very I've had a very acute sense of my feeling of 'x' about. And it's led to disconnection. It's led to that sense of disconnection. It's like a confirmatory -

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:24:06)

CLIENT: Well, some evidence. Maybe evidence isn't quite the right word to apply to these interrogations, but So, I mean I guess on those terms it leads to, you know, a kind of successful transference. But (sigh) I lost the thread. I mean we were talking about -

I lost the thread because I got mad, clearly. I lost the thread because I felt kind of pissed off. And so the train of thought was derailed. But, maybe you could also say that I lost the thread because, you know, I felt that disconnection very acutely. And part of the train of thought or the, you know, the thread in the discussion was embedded in our relationship. And suddenly I felt displaced for it. (pause) [00:25:23]

THERAPIST: Well, what were some of the angry thoughts you had?

CLIENT: It wasn't angry. I mean it was, I think the more precise, you know, way of describing it in this context the context that I think is helpful is that, you know, it was evidence that confirmed my fears about disconnection. You know, like to elaborate explicitly, it means something like, "Well, you know, this interaction is kind of mercenary.

"It's kind of, you know, God, you have to listen to I don't know twelve people, or ten people or eight people back to back over the course of a day, you know, just talking about themselves. That can't be very much fun."

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: "So, you know, when Marshall comes late "You know, the significance is that the connection is a little bit attenuated in one way or another. Or, that it's artificial so that [00:26:31]

THERAPIST: That I don't really care.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, that sounds a little bit plaintive and then I guess that's not the way that It's that you're not taking it seriously at some level. You know, it's that here I am taking it as seriously as I possibly can, despite my misgivings. You know, opening my arms to this, you know, suggestion that you have something to offer. And instead you're being cavalier.

And, you know, I think over the course of the following ten minutes, generally speaking, including today, you know, I lose myself in the conversation and I think we have good rapport. And, you know, I can kind of find that again.

But for those first ten minutes, the way that it feels to me is that, you know, this is a kind of impeachment of our connection. A kind of confirmation of my generic concerns about the capacity for connection. Which are generally grounded on actual dynamics. You know, I mean it's not It's true that it's generic, but my powers of analysis are excellent. [00:28:00]

So for each relationship, you know, I can -

THERAPIST: Your powers of analysis are excellent, but they depend on sort of intuitive or felt data. I mean that's what (cross talking at 00:28:20).

CLIENT: Well, they depend on two things. One of them is intuitive or felt data or just sort of sensory perception. And the other is my kind of analysis of the social relations. And, you know, I guess what I'm trying to say is simply that, you know, for each relationship The fact that it happens in each relationship almost without exception, is very suggestive. (laughs)

But for each relationship the analysis is different. It's not as if, you know, I have this particular concern about the artificiality of our relationship, with Jennie (ph), or with my sister, or with Jack or with Kevin or other people that I'm more tenuously connected to. For each of them it's different.

And, in fact, you know the -

THERAPIST: Although -

CLIENT: sort of structural concerns that I have about our relation, you know, they're relevant. You know, it is true that you have to see eight people back to back. It is true that, you know, I'm aware I have no idea what -

THERAPIST: Yeah but (cross talking at 00:29:15).

CLIENT: mornings look like for you. But, you know, it's like there are structural factors which would, you know, incline somebody to be frequently (cross talking).

THERAPIST: But that theme is always the thing, which is that you are, you know, making an honest and earnest effort and bringing yourself fully to something -

CLIENT: And I've mentioned it several times before in addition to that.

THERAPIST: The lateness. My lateness.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Yes. Absolutely. And the other person is demonstrating that they're not in, I'm just saying in what you're reading to be, they're not in in the same way. And they're not really reciprocating the degree of engagement and investment that you have.

CLIENT: In addition to which there's a closely reciprocal function, interaction, that we engage in at the end of each session. You know, in which the only time I've really pushed it, you've been very urgent that it was time to go. There was somebody else waiting outside. [00:30:31]

I mean I'm not, you know, I don't have any problem comprehending that. And yet, I'm also waiting outside for five to ten minutes routinely. So, you know, on top of the question of whether you're taking it seriously is the question of reciprocation. (pause)

And these are all considerations that, you know, I think are at some level very present to me in those first ten minutes -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: of any conversation of ours. You know, and that require some effort on my part, I think. Today at least and probably on other occasions, to reestablish my sense of connection. Now the upside is that I'm able to do it. [00:31:32]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That today we reestablished a connection. But my sense is that the way that I reestablished it or the strategy that on this particular occasion I used for reestablishing it, was through argument. (pause)

THERAPIST: That somehow helps.

CLIENT: Well, I mean you should see immediately how it helps. An argument is a way that you have of relating to somebody, sometimes intimately, despite conflict. It's a potentially intimate relation that does not require that you be on the same page.

THERAPIST: I said something kind of like this on Wednesday (laughs), and you told me I was wrong. [00:32:31]

CLIENT: Oh yeah, did I?

THERAPIST: (laughs) Yeah.

CLIENT: How did you put it on Wednesday?

THERAPIST: I said, I wonder if in part [Maybe that's not entirely right.] (ph) It was something like that sort of happened Wednesday. You know, I wonder if part of the arguing, you know, is not because of the I mean we had been looking at it as a result of feeling less connected. And I wondered if it was also a way to reconnect.

CLIENT: I told you you were wrong?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's interesting. Okay. (pause) Well, I reserve the right to revise my previously -

THERAPIST: Absolutely. (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs) Absolutely. I guess what it shows is that the argument is really important. (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I mean -

CLIENT: At any rate -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, really what I want to be talking about at some level is, you know, like job search. And yet, here we are again. [00:33:45]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: Hm. Well that's [00:35:17]

(long pause)

THERAPIST: Let me back up a little bit. So, you're saying that arguing is relating in spite of conflict, and that's why or that's how it helps to get things back on track. Is that, for example, in the first, you know, as you were feeling as you did or do when I'm late, suspicious of or doubting of my commitment to you.

CLIENT: Okay, just for the sake of argument. (pause) [00:36:31]

THERAPIST: We then (pause) And there's something I don't understand here Or maybe (inaudible at 00:36:45) But like the argument helps because, you know, you can see in my responses or like, you know, it kind of brings us together in a way that arguing does. We're kind of pushing against each other and it feels -

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: No. A, it's not about your commitment to me, it's about kind of the reality of this attachment. In other words -

THERAPIST: I see -

CLIENT: You know, I mean -

THERAPIST: What is it? It's not so much that like I'm a lousy uncommitted therapist, but it's more like, what does it mean? What is an expectable sort of level of engagement and investment from a therapist? And how do you ? [00:37:32]

CLIENT: Probably. I mean I guess that's the test.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But it's really, you know, my sense is that I see it as a relationship. You know, the test is of the relationship. It's like mutual something. You know, the question is just whether this is a real relationship.

THERAPIST: That I've not [shown my commitment] (ph) to you?

CLIENT: Yeah. Or I mean that's the input. But, you know, like the key question for me is not whether you're a lousy therapist. I mean, at some level I couldn't give a shit if you're a lousy therapist or not. You know -

THERAPIST: And the only reason I (inaudible at 00:38:16) originally said it was commitment, you said "No, no, no, it's about the nature of this kind of relationship."

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. Right.

THERAPIST: I thought you were referring to the therapy and now you're -

CLIENT: Fair enough. Okay. So I revise my previous -

THERAPIST: Okay. (laughs)

CLIENT: thirty seconds of having [rendered it.] But, you know, so that's Shit, I had another thought and I lost it. Oh, what I was going to say was that it's not I mean, maybe there's something about testing. You know, there's some elements of that that's relevant. But I'll also say that this was the way that I wrote my dissertation.

So that's interesting, right? Because, you know, a dissertation research process is kind of an inanimate object. And yet, you know, it was completely like when I would kind of lose my sense of disconnection, or lose my sense of connection to a train of thought, to this to that. You know, what I would do is I would kind of pick a fight with somebody.

I would look at my notes, and I took very extensive notes so I could kind of see the process of reading these books. It was like, "You fucker! You're so stupid!" [00:39:18]

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: What kind of bullshit is this!

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: God! You know?

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: So, you know, that's not like about provoking a response. There's something about the process of arguing or being contemptuous.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Or just that mode of engagement that makes it possible, even when I feel conflicted about whether it's worthwhile to get another degree, and whether anthropology is a real discipline.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, even when all, whether I had to be out saving the world.

THERAPIST: (cross taking at 00:39:55)

CLIENT: Whether I had to be out saving the world. Even when that's happening -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: through argument I can have a connection and still have the conflict. The conflict is preserved. The conflict is not subverted.

THERAPIST: Right you don't have to, you can still have those doubts and uncertainty.

CLIENT: That's right. That's my theory.

THERAPIST: And kind of be in dialogue at the same time.

CLIENT: And, you know, and with actual people it has the added advantage of allowing me to test the quality of their commitment.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Right.

CLIENT: But that's something else. (sigh) [hypothesis.] (ph) (pause)

THERAPIST: It is somewhat unusual to have this level of ongoing doubt. My point there is, like in therapy and analysis people, you know, often have doubts kind of like at certain period and they get bad. Or people question the extent to which it can be helpful sometimes. But this kind of week to week ongoing doubt about whether it's really the thing to be doing. [00:41:24]

CLIENT: It's like if it's really not the thing to be doing then you just bail. But I'm not bailing.

THERAPIST: Something like that. Yeah, there's sort of a level on ongoing struggle with that that is not so usual. And I think that's why I'm [waving my arms] about it.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So I'm not sure quite what to make of it but I'm flagging it.

CLIENT: Okay. So I guess this would be evidence for the assertion that this is actually a real spider and not an animatronics spider. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If it was fully animatronic then it would be fine.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:42:09)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Alright. So fine.

THERAPIST: I mean it's also -

CLIENT: So the idea would be to desensitize myself to the point where I don't have to be so argumentative and, for example, delay submission of things. I mean, I guess one -

THERAPIST: Well, let me -

CLIENT: One of the questions in trying to apply the analogy of this interaction with the other ones that, you know, ultimately not to be insulting, I care more about. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I understand. (cross talking at 00:42:41)

CLIENT: (laughs) One of the issues is one that we were grappling with a few months ago. You know, whether the delay is a kind of organic product of my feeling disconnected. I don't know that this is either or. You know, primarily -

THERAPIST: (cross talking)

CLIENT: Or in the first instance, you know, delay in producing, you know, -

THERAPIST: (cross talking)

CLIENT: the kind of production problems, you know, with work related stuff is, you know, a function of the feeling of disconnection first and foremost or kind of argument. You know, whether I'm being kind of passive aggressive or whether I'm genuinely feeling disconnected. I don't know that they need to be in competition.

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, that package of things seem to go together. This is what see over and over again. That you feel shakiness or insecurity in the connection and relatably in the whole endeavor. [00:43:48]

CLIENT: Mm hm. Right.

THERAPIST: And you get very occupied with it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And sometimes you feel disconnected and you also feel angry and contentious.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And because those things get in the way -

CLIENT: I kind of transition [from one to the other easily] (ph)

THERAPIST: of like production. You know whether it's (inaudible at 00:44:05) here, you know, in some sense talking about like the things you want to be talking about like job stuff. Although, I think that's the same spider. We should stop.

CLIENT: Okay. Alright. Wednesday.

THERAPIST: Wednesday.

CLIENT: See you then.

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