TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Good morning.
CLIENT: Good Morning. (pause) Um. (clears throat) (pause) (clears throat) Um. (sighs) [00:02:27]
So Jennie (ph) and I got to bed a bit late last night, quite a bit late. You know, a minor argument. And I just didn't feel like going to sleep until we kind of talked it through, as is often the case. I don't like going to sleep in the middle of an argument. It's hard for me. (sigh) It's just kind of characteristic. (clears throat)
She had to finish working. So we went to bed around two until about two thirty or something we went to sleep (clears throat) and woke up at five thirty, just completely (coughs) revved, as is often the case. I've had this. This phenomenon has persisted since early adulthood. (pause) And it's characteristic of the kind of heightened state of arousal associated with, you know, because I'm anxious. (sniffs) (sighs) [00:03:57]
But I wasn't feeling anxious consciously at all. There are reasons to feel anxious, I think. And I've been really spending a lot of energy, I guess, trying not to fall into it. You know, Jack (ph) whose been my interlocutor over there -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: in murky situations is in the throes of a big speech in Holland. And he basically said, "Listen, we can't talk this through until " And he just kind of gave an update of what's going on, "until this is out the door." Which is okay, but it makes me feel, I mean sort of classically, anxious about our relationship, anxious about whether there's something going on on that end.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know, and I've just been having to manage it.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Wednesday was very difficult. I ended up just sending a very quick note and, you know, getting this response. [00:05:06]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Thursday So Wednesday was really hard. I was really kind of captured (ph) by it, a kind of new set of skills, I guess, I hope. You know, I managed it within the day. And Thursday I was kind of more or less functioning but not especially well. But you know, I got some stuff done and then Jennie and I went out to a function where she's a [fellow] this year.
So we went to hear the [Jesse Jackson] (ph) Society, Club and hearing everybody talking about [Jesse Jackson] (ph). It was kind of a -
THERAPIST: Who is [Jesse Jackson] (ph)?
CLIENT: [Jesse Jackson] (ph) is a lawyer.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And he's sort of in Internet culture he's very important.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: But he's a professor at Brown Law School. [00:06:17]
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: And he founded this center on institutional corruption. And we went to this [clearing center] and it was a very embarrassing, sort of through the narrative, it was a very embarrassing event really because, you know, we basically sat down and had this very badly catered dinner. And there were all of these, you know, kind of typical Brown (inaudible at 00:06:49) around.
And like the entertainment was basically four or five skits about [Jesse Jackson] (ph). Like everybody was kind of sycophantically -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Anyway, just sort of a caricature of the way that academics get ahead, I guess. And, you know, I don't know. On the theme of This is as different theme. I will divert ourself. But it's like everything that makes me feel uncomfortable about this environment. You know? It's kind hierarchical, it's, you know, back scratching.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: It's, you know, bourgeois. I mean, you know, like all of the things that make me uncomfortable, to my detriment, about many institutional environments. You know, it sort of expressed, or allows me to express this discomfort. [00:07:49]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Anyway, so, you know, it was fine and I was fine. (inaudible 00:07:58) (coughs) Even through the evening I was kind of struggling (ph) with it. And (sigh) so Jennie and I were going to talk about the fight and we resolved it fine. I felt okay about it. And our intimacy has really been, not intimacy in a kind of interactive sense but our sexual intimacy -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: has really been impaired in the last few months.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And I just feel like kind of disturbed by it. And, you know, she said what I knew already, which is that when I'm very anxious it's hard. Which makes sense but isn't great to hear.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: (pause) (sigh) But it was nice. I mean we had a good moment, a sweet moment. Went to bed and I woke up revved. It's the best way of explaining it I guess. [00:09:04]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: I mean just sort of aroused in a psychological sense, I guess.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And, you know, like I immediately made the connection to the way that I feel aroused in kind of, you know, a heightened state of focus when I'm feeling anxious. And also, you know, a connection to the way that I'm feeling aroused when I'm working very well. You know? Just this heightened state of something. This somewhat altered state.
It felt very much the same. It felt like, you know, the thing that often impedes my sleep and the thing that, you know, often impedes my relationships and work process as a result. And the thing facilitates both of those in some sense. And I had a sense of the interdependency of all of these states, all of these processes. I wasn't feeling, at least consciously, very anxious. I wasn't feeling especially creative. [00:10:25]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But the state of arousal felt very similar to me. And, I mean, I guess the point of departure that I imagine for our conversation today -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: was that. I mean it's all very good. It's potentially, you know, fine and productive. I just can't, I don't have any control over it. (pause) (clears throat) And maybe because I don't have any control over it, it fucks of my sleep, and it fucks up my relationships, and it fucks up my work process. And yet I'm kind of dependent on it. (pause) [00:11:28]
I mean we haven't talked, or we don't typically talk, about, you know, aspects I guess we do talk about them a lot when I (laughs) express some frustration with not talking about them. But, you know, about kind of characterological characterological isn't quite the right word you know, like not everybody enters this state of arousal. And I've entered it for, you know, days at a time sometimes.
THERAPIST: Right. (pause)
CLIENT: You know, this is a faculty that I have, you know, for better or worse, for good and for ill, and that facilitates, you know, all of these other different processes and impedes other ones. And I have this sense that, you know, it could be very productive and fulfilling and satisfying. You know? If only I could kind of control it, but I can't. [00:12:36]
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: And I guess the thought that I had was, you know, these are such basic functions that when I can't control it it's impeding the The agenda that presents itself most forcefully to me is, you know, "Well, why can't I control it?" And, I guess, I mean in some sense when I say that, you know, I felt very anxious but was able to control it after a relatively short time, that's kind of what I'm talking about.
So maybe here I am learning a little bit But it's not like I'm consciously going about it. And, you know, not to return to this very well-trodden question of instrumental versus (laughs), you know, analytical solutions. But I just feel as if that's what feels most urgent to me. [00:13:39]
I got two and half hours sleep. And I got two and half hours sleep not because, at any conscious level at least, I felt particularly anxious, but just because yet again this kind of state of arousal was not something that I could, you know, fend off. (clears throat) (pause)
Or put a different way, sorry about all these [parafactic] (ph) utterances. But (pause) (sigh) I mean you could call it anxiety, you could call it arousal. You know, you can say that when I'm productive it's because I'm harnessing the arousal that comes with anxiety, or the anxiety that comes with arousal for, you know, in a productive way. I think that would be another, you know, interpretation of what I'm saying.
You could say that, you know, this was, in fact, the anxiety but without, you know, the associated, I would say, (inaudible at 00:15:01). Whether through a productive process or an unproductive (laughs) process, one could be the judge, manage the associated kind of feelings and panic and (pause) fear, I guess.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like active fear. You can say that, but it kind of doesn't matter whether you call it anxiety or arousal, at some level. You know, I got it clearly. And over time I've developed strategies for managing it. It seems to be the case that this is the way that I'm This is a kind of tendency that I'll probably always have.
I'd prefer to have it without, you know, these really debilitating associated feelings of fear and unease and discomfort. But I'd also like to be able to control it more. Even if you call it anxiety. I don't know. I'm not being as articulate as I'd like to be. But I mean, I guess what I'm saying is I'm (sigh) [00:16:18]
Assume that, as I think you've said maybe a little obliquely at times. that really the exercise here is not to, in an instrumental way with a pill, you know, completely divest myself of, you know, this tendency that I have toward anxiety, but rather to, you know, master it in some way. Assume.
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: I'm not putting words in your mouth. But I think one of the questions we talked about is whether whatever it is that, you know, that I'm feeling that is troubling me or, you know, causing difficulty for me in my life, is something that can be erased or whether it's something that I have to come to terms with and develop strategies for managing. That seems to me to be Assume that for the moment, you can respond. [00:17:28]
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: But if that's true then, you know, we call it Bob, we could call it Jeffrey. I mean we could it arousal. We could call it, you know, something that has a negative association or something that has a positive association.
You know, the key question is finding some way of being with it that, you know, allows me to do the things that I want to do and be with people in the way that I'd like to be, and get sleep in the way that I'd like to get sleep. And write and be productive in the world and do good work in a way that, you know, I'd like to the best of my capabilities, as far as I can go.
And (sniffs) (sighs) I feel like identifying the thing to be managed as the negative emotion that's associated with it or the fear that is sometimes associated with it, might be a little misleading. I mean, again, I don't know what the analysis of this particular episode or event is this early waking that I couldn't quite master but I wasn't particularly upset. [00:19:01]
I didn't feel consciously upset. And that feeling of upset I think is largely what we've been targeting (pause), rather than the arousal itself or the 'x' itself.
THERAPIST: And the meaning I'm understanding you to be saying is that we tend to focus on the narrative that embeds the arousal. You know? Why would this situation have gotten you revved up? Or why would that situation have made you anxious? Or, you know, what was the meaning of what was going on that made it really matter to you? But this sort of narrative part.
And you're saying, you know, "What about sort of the reaction itself?" I mean, "Whatever the narratives are that go along with it, I sometimes feel like I'm in this car that has an incredibly sensitive gas pedal. And wherever I'm going, or whatever the traffic is like, you know, I test the pedal and go 'Whoa!' You know? And then I'm up until three in the morning. Or I, you know, I'm just sort of feeling incredibly worked up all day." Or whatever. [00:20:32]
You're talking more about, or you seem focused more now at this moment, on sort of the reaction itself or the nature of your kind of reactivity, than the narratives that embed it, which is usually what we talk about.
CLIENT: Nice. I think that's on the nose.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And I feel like I I've been saying this periodically.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But particularly on Wednesday. I feel very suspicious right now of these narratives. It just feels like the, you know, the indeterminacy of all hypotheses presents itself to me very forcefully in trying to, you know, come up with a narrative, the narrative that best explains these things. Whether it's control or hierarchy or God knows. [00:21:35]
I feel like we've come up with six or seven of them that, you know, are fairly plausible and, you know, could be productive. But, you know -
THERAPIST: I have some narratives about that. But I'll stop (cross talking at 00:21:50)
CLIENT: I know you do. I know. No, no no.
THERAPIST: I'll spare you at the moment.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But I hear what you're saying.
CLIENT: You hear what I'm saying. I mean, this feels very concrete. And concrete, specific and important. Like this is really important. You know, this is key at some level. You know, whether, however you approach it, whatever the strategy is. And I'm happy to entertain others.
THERAPIST: Well I think -
CLIENT: But I just feel like I want (sigh) I feel an urgency at this moment, on two hours sleep, to address the thing itself or what feels obviously, whatever.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But, you know, what feels (laughs) at this particular moment (inaudible at 00:22:36) itself. And I feel like we often don't. That somehow maybe just the intrinsic aspect of the psychotherapeutic process just leads us always to narrative and so we almost, we ignore this important common thread.
THERAPIST: I think the experience that you're having right now kind of has a "trying to reach me" about the way you get worked up and what it's like. And being worried, I think, that I'm going to, eh, not actually explain it away, but -
CLIENT: I don't care whether you're I mean at some level I don't care whether you explain it away. What I'm saying is that (sigh) (pause) I'm saying it's important and I want attention paid to it. You know, you're welcome to say whatever you want. (laughs) My position will be the same. I don't feel worried about it. I just feel rigid (ph) about it. [00:23:44]
THERAPIST: I guess what I mean by explain it away is that it won't reach me. I won't actually pay attention to it. I mean, you know, I said, "Well, and really the thing that matters here is looking is how this comes up, and when it comes, and what the stories are around it. And the experience itself is just, oh, that's your temperament or whatever. But let's look at "
Which is not what I think and is not what I'm going to say. But that, I imagine, would be really unsatisfying. But your point is like, "Hey, let's pay attention to what this is like for me when it's two thirty or when it's five thirty in the morning and I've just woken up. And I know that, you know, I've had two and half hours of sleep and it's just not going to serve me well through the day.
"And I don't know why I feel like this. And it's a distinct and very powerful feeling. Sometimes that kind of is very useful and works in my favor, and other times it really gets in my way. Like when I wish I could've gone back to sleep this morning." [00:24:44]
CLIENT: But also that it's come to all of the circumstances that we've created narratives about.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: The other ones, I'm not sure. But the presence or absence of this, you know, feeling or whatever, state of mind I guess, it feels like part of the continuum of sleep in some sense. You know? Just this arousal, it feels like it's almost part of, to my detriment -
THERAPIST: You mean, like it's on the other end of the continuum of sleep but it's (cross talking at 00:25:17)
CLIENT: I have no other end of the continuum. It' like similar It's like, you know, you have various states of mind as a human being, some of them conscious some of them not conscious, and it's like a hyperconsciousness.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: Anyway, so, yeah, I don't know if I feel worried about, I just feel urgent about it. Maybe we're describing the same -
THERAPIST: Aroused, one might say.
CLIENT: Aroused, one might say that. Something. It feels important to me. It feels like a term of reference or a frame of reference that we haven't explored very much and I would like to discuss it. (laughs) I don't feel worried about not discussing it. I feel, again, I mean as I said many times, even when I felt, you know, conflict or frustration -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I feel like we've established good rapport. And that is very, you know, important to me and important to the process. I don't feel worried that you'll be dismissive in some way. But it feels urgent. It feels like an important way of talking about things that we often don't. So, I think that's where I'm at. [00:26:36]
I mean, you said you've had narrative frames that are relevant and that's fine. I don't feel a need to fend them off. But this feels important to me, and the contrast between the two of them feels important to me as well.
THERAPIST: Is what feels important establishing, sort of, elaborating the description of the state?
CLIENT: Well, I guess, responding to this other frame of reference in some way. You know, like thinking about what it would mean to respond to the state rather than to the narrative about the state, or the narratives that arise in relation to the -
You know, in other words, you can look at the federal government, you know, as a sociological phenomenon, you can look at the federal government as an anthropological phenomenon, but you can also look at the federal government as a bureaucracy. And, you know, with certain functionality. [00:27:53]
You know, it does this or it does that. You know, it gets this done or gets that done, or it doesn't get that done. And sometimes the things that allow it to get this or that done make it difficult to get that or the other thing done.
So, I mean, I think people maybe outside, you know, the green pastures of Brown University would agree that the literature is important, and that narrative framework is important and kind of how you tell the story about the federal government is important. But it's also important, you know, to know whether, I don't know, you know, taxes are collected. Right? Roads are -
THERAPIST: maintained.
CLIENT: maintained. And so on and so forth. And I often feel, a little bit, I guess And, again, maybe this is well trodden territory but maybe it's not with this level of specificity. I often feel as if, you know, the frame of reference which is proximal to, you know, roads being maintained is something that we avoid. And I wonder what it would mean to, you know, go (inaudible at 00:29:15).
I mean, if just as a pod (ph) experiment, if in this framework, you know, the psychological approach rather than a psychiatric approach or what have you. I mean, or I don't even know how you would conceptualize the, you know, the kind of therapeutic frame of reference.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But if we wanted to pay attention -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: to, you know, the structure of roads and the collection of taxes.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: If we wanted to pay attention to the state of arousal itself rather than the narratives that grow up around it or that contribute to it, what would it mean in this setting? I'm not demanding, you know, a medicine or some other instrumental intervention that would, you know, afford greater control over it. Or a, I don't know, meditation technique or what have you. [00:30:23]
I'm just saying like within the framework of these, you know, interpersonal therapeutic interactions, what would it mean to say, "Okay, we're not going to deal with narrative right now, we're going to deal with this."
THERAPIST: It seems to me that this is (pause) inherently a combination of talking bureaucracy and talking literature in that, you know, somebody comes into some governmental office and complains because the roads aren't being maintained. And first they talk about what's not happening.
"Well, you know, after all the thunderstorms last year there's potholes in like twelve different streets in our town. And you know what, some of them are from this year, but some of them are from a few years ago. And, you know, there's this school that's crumbling," and da da da da. "And, you know, you guys are supposed to be swinging into action and fixing these things. And we pay our taxes," and da da da da da. [00:31:33]
Like, in other words, that seems to me to be the focus on the way the bureaucracy is not working.
CLIENT: But I guess what I'm saying is that there's a phenomenon here and the phenomenon unites the moments when the bureaucracy is not working and the moments when the bureaucracy is working. It's like, you know, a kind of structural feature of the bureaucracy. You know, I'm noticing something that feels important, that's completely non-narrative. It has nothing to do with narrative. But what I'm saying is -
THERAPIST: [Well these thing have] a lot to do with narrative. I'm just saying that there are inherently two different ways we talk about these things. One is, and that's sort of where I was going, is to say that, you know, so then you see what's going on with a bureaucracy. Or fine, you say like, "You know, like this town is great at schools and lousy at roads." Or whatever.
I mean, and then you'd say, "Okay, what's the literature that's behind that. You know, what's the narrative that explains why this is how things are functioning." And it seems to me you are wanting to focus more basically (ph) on the "what," and less on the "why." [00:32:50]
CLIENT: I want to be able to adjust it. I want to be able to adjust the "what." And my ability to adjust the what is lacking.
THERAPIST: I think you want to kind of escape the narrative somewhat, to tell you the truth.
CLIENT: I do. I do.
THERAPIST: Yeah. It can't be done.
CLIENT: That's true. That's true. That's true.
THERAPIST: And I understand. I think what you said before about the way you're experience of having these various disjointed ad hoc feeling narratives, I think, spun or thrown at you, you know, in a way where they don't seem to really touch or connect well with, you know, the "what."
I think that's very crucial in all of this. I mean you don't You're very skeptical of the literature department. You're very good at literature and very skeptical about literature. (laughs) And I think, yeah, I would rather circumvent it in some fashion and find some other means of ameliorating the "what." Or at least understanding them, or paying attention to them or something. (pause) [00:34:29]
CLIENT: Okay. Good. So, no, that helps. Yeah, it feels like it hasn't felt, significantly.
THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. That we come back to this very often.
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess that's it. It's just as simple as that. And yet, you know, I guess, there's some -
THERAPIST: And yet, and yet.
CLIENT: And yet, the other part of my narrative of the last couple of days is that I felt like I managed this one a little bit better.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: (sigh)
THERAPIST: I think both in here and in life that ongoing narrative I'm acknowledging admitting, whatever you do distrust narrative often. Do you know the expression, like the gift is close to the wound? [00:35:39]
CLIENT: No, but I understand it.
THERAPIST: Yeah. It seems like that with you and narrative, in a way. That, like, you're sort of gifted at it in one way but also it feels disconnected and you feel distrustful of it.
CLIENT: I feel betrayed by it and I feel defeated by its inability to get me what I Like, bounded by time.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: In the real world I feel defeated by this ability to get what I want.
THERAPIST: And I think that's more so about your relation to narrative than about the specific -
CLIENT: Well that's very abstract. It's about my relation to, you know, my professional training in understanding and producing narratives that -
THERAPIST: Oh no, I don't think so. I think it started well before that. I mean developmentally you had to notice really early on that we talked about you really feeling very much betrayed by, about [00:36:52]
CLIENT: True.
THERAPIST: I guess I imagine it starts there or is close to starting there. And is (pause) also very much bound up with what happens in a person. If when Jack (ph) says, "Hey, you know, I'm working on this speech and I'm just swamped with it and we're going to have to talk about this." And you're, you know, after I'm done with, after you're outside the door, and I think the next thing you said earlier today was something like, "I don't think there's anything else going on there."
Or, you know, like you were I know you trust Jack (ph) and think well of him but I imagine a lot of the anxiety you're having to deal with around that was from, or more precisely, that that wasn't exactly what was going on or there was something else. [00:38:03]
CLIENT: There's certainly another narrative that I have.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That interposes itself in the -
THERAPIST: Yeah, and you -
CLIENT: The most obvious narrative, which is that -
THERAPIST: Just what he said.
CLIENT: Just what he said. (laughs)
THERAPIST: Yeah. So I completely agree that the way I framed it in terms of narrative is kind of abstract, but I think it has sort of very evident roots or is evidently embedded in what happens interpersonally in the present. And long in your history (inaudible at 00:38:49) cross up here, in how it strikes you and I differently.
I mean you To me it seems that most of the narratives we've constructed over the months, you know, are more or less consistent. And elaborate this or that, you know, with some revision, but are mostly on a similar line. But I know that to you it often really doesn't feel that way. It feels like they're much more ad hoc and disconnected and sort of du jour.
So again, you know, my point there is to sort of connect this idea of a distrust of narrative to a very immediate sort of felt experience that you have. [00:39:57]
CLIENT: Well that's I think what you just said is important and true and has come up in other contexts before. But (pause) I think what's implicit in it is that while I'm very good at narrative, I'm not good at sustaining them.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: There's a kind of ephemeral nature -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: of these narratives in my consciousness. And I find it very easy to lose the thread.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah.
CLIENT: And that's very important.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That, you know, memory is not Memory, I guess is one way of describing it and you can use that framework. But, you know, it has, it's some -
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Another way of putting it, I guess, is kind of the persistence or durability of, you know, of the story. [00:41:04]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And I find it very easy to lose it.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: And the story, you know, conceived in terms of a relationship, conceived in terms of a, you know, work project, conceived in terms of all of these things.
THERAPIST: Yeah. And I think that's probably why you, including today in a way, like you really have a desire for something concrete or instrumental, because it would -
CLIENT: That's true.
THERAPIST: circumvent -
CLIENT: What feels unreliable.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: You, me and the clock.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) [You've said that a couple of times.] (ph) [00:42:05]
CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause) I mean and, again, I guess -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: The way I understand that, you know, ephemeral quality to, you know, the narratives that I'm able to produce that describe the world around me is as like a structural feature. Which is a little, I mean it's almost contradictory or paradoxical. [00:43:12]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: But as, you know, like some kind of physical -
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: neuro-physiological inability to preserve them, to remember them, to call them to mind consistently in moments of need. And, I mean, this sort of running on -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: skit that we have in which you'll say something along the lines of what you just did.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That, you know, they're all overlapping and converging around reality. And me having a strong sense that they're just du jour.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: I guess is, in some ways, a debate about whether this is a structural phenomenon or just a question of orientation. (pause)
THERAPIST: I would say it sort of relates to the trail. [00:44:18]
CLIENT: Relates to the trail. Okay.
THERAPIST: Like a deep distrust -
CLIENT: I see.
THERAPIST: from first (ph).
CLIENT: I see. (sigh) (pause)
THERAPIST: We should stop for now.
CLIENT: Huh. See you next week. (sigh)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
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