TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(noise)

THERAPIST: Hi, let me take a quick second and text my next person. (ticking) Going to be ten minutes late (inaudible). Good morning.

CLIENT: Good morning. (clears throat) So it's been like a week and a half, feels like much longer from that. When I lived in Oregon (inaudible) it was really busy. So let's see work has been a pain, I've been barely treading water and I don't know, I got called out at a meeting yesterday for not delivering an experiment that I said would be ready two weeks ago. All I could say was "I know my progress has been slow but I've been working on it every day…sorry." [00:01:16] Nothing (inaudible). I don't know, like, one of the things that kind of a constant source of insecurity for me is this fear that the people I consider my friends only tolerate my presence because I patronize their small businesses. For instance my friend Kara (ph?) is also a jeweler and I spent probably thousands of dollars over the last five years on…I think she's (inaudible) yeah. Or you know, my friend, she's a novelist and buy her books. I have a friend who's a musician and I help him hold concerts. So like (pause) I don't know, on one hand it's very much an insecurity the thing that I worry about, but on the other hand if I apply my rational thinking skills I realize that these fears are completely irrational because, you know, you might put up with someone you don't like at a party because they're valuable to you but you don't invite them to your house for dinner. Right? [00:02:44] Anyway, so the thing about it is I've found myself, like pretty much anytime I wasn't actively scheduled for programming, people kept asking to spend time with me, people for whom there's no patronage relationship at all and this is…

THERAPIST: This is going to be very difficult to explain (laughs).

CLIENT: (laughing) But I really, truly don't understand.

THERAPIST: I understand.

CLIENT: So yeah, that was the thing.

THERAPIST: I don't mean to minimalize something that I know is actually very serious, an issue, I just… (over talking by client) to be proved completely wrong about this.

CLIENT: Yeah, so…so Thursday night at ridiculously o'clock because my flight was delayed so I missed my connection, I got in at 11:30 instead of 8:30 so the subway wasn't running and it was a hundred and fifty dollar cab ride to the hotel so I was sitting in the airport, on twitter, freaking out about "I don't want to spend a hundred and fifty dollars on a cab, I don't know where else I'm going to stay…" I flew into Portland airport, which is on the water and I was staying at a place on the water, out past it, so the last train that was going across the bridge had already left but there was still local trains going to Portland so I was on Twitter saying maybe I could just show up at the house at one of my old friends from college or my ex-boyfriend or someone because I know where their houses are and just be like "I'm going to spend the night on your couch." [00:04:46] Someone saw me freaking out about this and was like "We're driving to the hotel; we could stop at the airport and pick you up." That was very nice and I think kind of set the tone for the weekend for me. Friday I got up and the (inaudible) socially introverted so ended up going and driving in the car, I stayed in my room and logged into work and did work for four hours because it was the thing to do and to keep my mind occupied and to not be bored and not have to face people but then I had a panel I had to be on, that I was feeling very unprepared for but it went well and people came up and gave me compliments afterwards so I guess it went well. Then I was terrified of being rejected so instead of asking anyone to get dinner with me, I went and got dinner alone because the fear of rejection. It was all very silly, as it turned out later on they were like "Where were you Friday night?" Oh, yes, I ran into my friend and I went up to his room and between us and his roommate and his roommate's boyfriend and a couple of friends we called, we had a bottle of whiskey, that was fun. [00:06:07] Then Saturday morning I had another panel, that was excellent because all the other panelists are friends of mine, who live in places I don't see nearly as much, so we met up before the panel for breakfast and had breakfast and some of the panelists have babies so I got to play with the babies. Then we had our panel, even though only three people showed up for it because it was at nine o'clock in the morning. I got invited out to lunch and then attended a panel in the afternoon and got invited to dinner and there were parties in the evening…met another part of the panel, so that was really…Oh yes, went out to a party Saturday night, I hooked up with a friend and Sunday was much the same story, had a panel in the morning, got invited out to lunch, and there were no more panels in the afternoon.

THERAPIST: Hooked up like sexually hooked up or hooked up like hanging out?

CLIENT: Yes, sexually hooked up. So that was all very…Saturday night was all very awkward because there's clearly like, desire on both our parts, but (inaudible name) is in a big transition and so was feeling totally ashamed and awkward about his body and so it did not go well but I don't regret it and he says he didn't regret it and he said he had fun even though he looked like he was painfully self-conscious. Anyway… [00:08:05] We'll see where that goes…I mean he lives out West so…I've had terrible long distance relationships. (pause)

THERAPIST: I (pause) I imagine in some ways you feel like him in that your very self-conscious with (pause) because someone was sort of close to him and doing good things and wanting to be with him and it made it this sort of anxious confrontation between how he feels about himself and how someone was actually treating him. That sounds to me like what you're talking about. [00:09:42]

CLIENT: Yes it does, doesn't it? (pause)

THERAPIST: I think you, in a more kind of logical (inaudible), and it is a part worry that…now that your telling me about it I'm going to be the one to sort of confirm your fears or uncertainties about how this is probably deserved or to be (inaudible) taken or something like that (laughs).

CLIENT: Maybe. (pause) [00:11:03]

THERAPIST: Maybe also worry or (inaudible) sort of happy or kind of confirmatory about it?

CLIENT: Maybe. (coughs) I don't know. (pause) [00:12:13] (noise-banging) (clears throat) In a sense of I can't rely, well I can't expect to have friendships and have people I can count on because it could all disappear. (pause) [00:13:55] Another thing's Sunday…so Sunday is a panel I was on, I was actually the moderator and it kind of has the problem of audience members just take over the panel and start shouting out questions and having discussions and arguments and a lot of panels I think get just completely off the rails and then they'll leave and it was terrible. So I was what I consider to be a really heavy-handed moderator, like far more so than comfortable being in, than I would be in at another (inaudible) but afterwards like eight people came up and complimented me, "duh, duh, duh" like I kept the panel on track and it was good. I don't know. There were a lot of compliments from this weekend and I'm not good at accepting compliments, I actually hate critique and compliments because I always feel like they're either given out of pity or given out of mockery. Like the middle school "Oh my gosh, that (inaudible) is so great!" Like a really snotty, sarcastic, like you know it's…

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: …Not what they mean?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Or you know, "Here let me give you a compliment because you're so pathetic and you need something to boost your ego." [00:15:40] So that was really, really challenging.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like especially because they weren't generic "Oh you're a good person," or "Oh, I really like you," they were very specific about very specific action I had done.

THERAPIST: Sounds like a pretty stressful weekend actually?

CLIENT: It really was. I had fun but it was remarkably stressful.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then I had sex with a different person entirely Sunday night. Brant has (laughs) been trying to hook up with me at conventions for the last four years and "A" is the energy has never been quite right before and "B" Brant is very outspoken and something of a controversial figure in my friends circle. He's an anarchist, leftist and he's very judgmental of the girls who color within the lines, he would say certain people who engage in the American political process, care about politics, are not as ideologically pure about our liberalism in the field. He's also very much into processing emotions out loud and in public. [00:17:21] Talks about this a lot, he does work with something called the Mankind Project which I guess is kind of intensive, like short-term group therapy for men of color to get in touch with their feelings, like something kind of like the Warrior Project or like there's a bunch of those, that's like…I don't know if you've heard of or are familiar with the concept of the idea is you get a bunch of men out in the woods for a weekend or for a week…

THERAPIST: Yeah, men in the woods or men in (inaudible)…

CLIENT: Yeah. You know "Let's talk about your feelings and get in touch with your inner whatever…"

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's off-putting to some people and there's also a big, big blow-up…seven years ago but there was fall out last year. There was an organization called the Carl Brandon Society which I'm a member of and I'm good friends with everyone on the board so I'm not objective at all but anyway seven years ago there was a falling out between Brant and the rest of the board where he stormed away in fury…

THERAPIST: What is there engagement to?

CLIENT: A number of things. It provides scholarships for writers of color to attend intensive writing workshops, it gives two awards every year, one for a book by an author of color, one for (inaudible) for the whole session…the junior scholarship is for friends of color to attend conventions, they provide funding for academics of color to go to professional conferences, they're pretty much all about increasing the profile and presentation of people of color in science fiction/fantasy literature. [00:19:12] So yeah I'm friends with all the board members but like Brant had a terrible time at a writing workshop because of the writing workshop runners were racist and so he was one of the founding members of the Carl Brandon Society and he made them write into their charter at the beginning when the society was founded that they would never support the Clarion Writers Workshop. Well then Octavia Butler died and Octavia Butler had been a mentor at Clarion for many years and she loved Clarion and she really wanted to send all kids of color to Clarion and so the board decided that to honor her they would present a scholarship to the Clarion Writers Workshop and that was the start of the scholarship for them was the Octavia Butler Memorial Scholarship fund. So Octavia Butler if you're not familiar with her work is an enormously famous sci-fi writer.

THERAPIST: I've heard of her.

(CLIENT and THERAPIST talking over each other)

THERAPIST: That was not at all a comment on what…I shouldn't assume, it was more a comment on something I was surprisingly not ignorant of. (laughs)

CLIENT: So yeah, it's been seven years ago and they started the scholarship fund and Brant was like "It's in our charter that we're not going to support Clarion" and they were like "Octavia Butler, come on!"

THERAPIST: Huge.

CLIENT: "Get over it!"

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: They pulled a really ditch maneuver, he was like "Okay, fine. Octavia Butler Scholarship but it's going to be separate funds from our main funds and the money we put in is money that is specifically directed to the scholarship fund, we have clear boundaries and I want nothing to do with it." And they said "Yes." Then that year they asked him to present the book awards to the winners of the Parallax Award, that's what it's called, Parallax Award, so he presented the Parallax award to the author who wrote the book that one the award for the year and the author said "I want to donate this award money to the Octavia Butler Scholarship Fund," and tried to hand it back to Brant. [00:21:19] That was terribly painful and important for him so he broke ties with them. But anyway last year he wrote an article about this for the WisCon Chronicles which is a book that's published every year at WisCon. It's put together and edited by members of the community, the spring leading up to WisCon and it contains fiction and literary reviews and articles about our community and some scholarly articles and it's a smorgasbord types of writing but it's all centered around what WisCon was about. Brant wrote an article about this and then Nalo Hopkinson, who's also (inaudible) a very famous author wrote a response to it and a lot of people were just like "Brant what the fuck is your problem?" But anyway, so I had been trying to avoid being seen as being too close or too friendly to him because a lot of my friends kind of think he's a hot mess emotionally, which isn't really a good reason to treat a person. But because of various circumstances this weekend I ended up spending a lot of time with him, we were on panels together and we were in the same group for meals twice and then I got to talk a lot with him and I realized that you know, a lot of people might think he's a troublemaker, that he instigates drama or whatever and certainly there's some things about his incessant talk about Mankind Project and processing techniques and like "Let's all be anarchists" that's irritating but whose not irritating in some ways? But anyway I realized that just because my friends might judge me for having a relationship with him, that's not a good reason not to see if there's relationship potential there so we ended up having sex and that was amazing. [00:23:33] But of course now I'm worried about what will my friends say which is a ridiculous thing to be worried about but it's still a thing I'm worried about. (pause)

THERAPIST: You also feel safer talking about that aspect of it that you worry about then for example, how it was amazing?

CLIENT: That too, yes. So as I might have mentioned I'm kind of doesn't…softens it too much. A lot of my sex if very kinky and BDSME of me, it's something that I'm very in to. Typically in BDSME, encounters…I take the role of the top or the aggressor or the domineer or whatever language fits the situation because of course all of those things aren't exactly synonymous. Brant is also a top and is very much not interested in having an egalitarian encounter and so I ended up bottoming for really the first time ever in a healthy way, I mean, my abusive ex also calls himself a top but really he was just an abuser, not…it wasn't a healthy power exchange with Phil. [00:25:44] But with Brant it was, like…

THERAPIST: Yeah in prejudice (ph?), it wasn't exactly a choice on your part to be on the bottom right?

CLIENT: But yeah even though I know Brant and I trust him and I consented to everything and nothing went wrong, it was still incredibly scary and challenging to give up power and not be in control.

THERAPIST: It's a very different role.

CLIENT: Very different. Fun but…I don't know. It was challenging and also hot. (pause) [00:27:05]

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: I said I think your more (inaudible) even though that like…in the parade (ph?) somehow or like being critical of it being BDSME or… something.

CLIENT: I mean I'd be lying if I didn't admit that you know, I am thinking about Chrissy and how she thought BDSM was a symptom of me being mentally ill so…

THERAPIST: Sure. I do not see it that way. (clears throat) (pause) I get that (inaudible) for me like…I see it kind of like (pause) most other things where it's working for you and doesn't seem to be causing you some kind of trouble, your avoiding looking at it or whatever. Like… (pause) I mean, (sighs) (pause) I don't see anything inherently pathological about kinkier sex than about more vanilla sex. One could be rife with problems or your anxiety or whatever…

CLIENT: True.

THERAPIST: And that…in like clinical sense is a distinction more so than (pause)… [00:29:44] Then whether the sex is kinky or not. And also I guess (clears throat) I don't know. I might at some point like see or interpret to fit it, like something about like…sort of (pause) how, the way that seems to fit with your personality but like I'd probably do that with anything.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I wouldn't see it as inherently different. I don't usually make these statements but in part because you had that experience with Chrissy it seems like I will say that and you know at some point maybe it feel to you like I'm not sort of (inaudible) or if something's different we should talk about it but anyway that's…

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: At least consciously that's the position I hold about it, if that makes sense?

CLIENT: Yep. [00:31:09] I think so.

THERAPIST: And I would, I'm also…this is really more of the question as I think about it but I know that, cause you told me how some of how she was explicitly apologizing…it kind of (inaudible) to have…one thing about that that seems tricky to me is things like anxiety and shame like (pause) sex of any kind can be so rife with that anyway.

CLIENT: Right, right.

THERAPIST: That it seems like an especially charged issue to have that kind of a problem, you know?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: As compared to some other value or previous position or interest or something. (pause) Like you're a vegetarian and she's not or whatever.

CLIENT: Right. Well she was a vegetarian. Yeah. So yeah one of the things that made it so challenging is that even in vanilla sex or egalitarian sex where there is no power exchange or no kind of explicit or acknowledged power change is that I'm used to being an active participant, even if I'm not running the show and Brant had me completely restrained like there was no like…I don't know. I realize this is completely irrational because I've been the top and I understand like how much gratification top can get out of having a responsive bottom who's not like…you don't have to…[00:33:28} My definition when I say I didn't do anything or I wasn't active is very much a very narrow, skewed definition of doing anything right, like I didn't move my hands, I didn't perform in the way that I'm used to performing so I felt like I didn't anything even though I was in role I don't usually inhabit. But (sighs) it felt very greedy and very selfish to…again this isn't accurate but it's how I felt it, to lie there and do nothing while pleasure is given to me, not…So in addition to the whole like having difficulty not being in control and the control issues and…

THERAPIST: It must have felt (inaudible) getting a compliment, so partly worse, I mean…

CLIENT: Yeah, actually…

THERAPIST: Better in the sense of work?

CLIENT: Sure, yes, exactly. I mean what you meant, for there, but yes exactly. And again (laughs) I realize it's not rational because I know what tops get out of (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: …that scenario. I've been in that role many times. It was…I don't know. (pause) {00:35:06]

THERAPIST: I'm smiling because you are suggesting that people can have not entirely rational responses to anything?

CLIENT: Especially sexual events. We're always perfectly rational in that role.

THERAPIST: Always seem to me, yeah.

CLIENT: And so… (pause) Yeah. Challenging.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Stressful.

CLIENT: And also very much not the kind of sex I usually have. (pause) I'm not usually attracted to aggressive, dominant men. It's not a matter of consciously or actively selecting against that it's that…

THERAPIST: Who you feel attracted to?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) [00:36:40] I guess I'm always anxious during sex, like you know, "Am I doing a good enough job, am I attractive enough, " like "Am I doing the right thing, is my partner having fun?" I think the flavor of that anxiety was different with Brant than with…then when I'm topping. It was much less anxiety over performance and "am I doing things right" because of course I didn't have much choice in what I got to do. (pause) [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah I would imagine that the kind of control you usually like to have is in part, I'm not at all trying to reduce it to this but one thing about that I imagine you like is that it helps to reduce your anxiety.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Engendered by someone wanting to please you or being drawn to you. (pause) [00:39:30] (loud banging) I wonder if your, if you feel like vaguely similar, kind of anxiety when I sort of make an observation like I did a minute ago in that it's not a compliment, I don't mean it like that but in the sense that similarity is the sort of (pause) way it puts me in a more active role and you in a more passive one and I'm focused on you and saying something about you and that makes you kind of anxious. It's not a compliment, it's not to say but I wonder if there's something in that, kind of similar thing in here?

CLIENT: Maybe. That might be a little bit of a reach but there might be something there. [00:41:43]

THERAPIST: An under reach.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: (laughs) You sound so surprised. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah so people have been posting their Con reports online and people I don't even know have been saying nice things about me and…I don't know. It's hard. It's really hard for me to read that even more difficult I think than reading criticism.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Its completely backwards isn't it? (pause)

THERAPIST: Not for someone who hasn't had as much experience as she should have at that sort of thing, particularly growing up.

CLIENT: I always want to argue with compliments, prove the complimenter wrong.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Which I've been told is very rude and antisocial but even if I don't mean it I should just say "Thank you" because that is the socially acceptable thing to do. [00:43:13]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. That's a very stressful and anxious thing to do.

CLIENT: Mm hm. (pause) [00:44:19]

THERAPIST: I wish we could (inaudible)

CLIENT: (inaudible)

THERAPIST: I billed your insurance.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It's the insurance so we'll just see what happens.

CLIENT: See what they do? Yeah. The next (inaudible) is a meeting at my church on Sunday so I'll…I thought I'll have things to say about that on Monday.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: See you.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

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