TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Hey. (pause) So, something curious I guess.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I feel very... at sea. I'm trying to think of the right word. You know, all of the usual triggers are all in evidence, insofar as, you know, it's still very murky in New York, in the absence of evidence, I'm assuming evidence of absence. And my responses are all, or many of them, as they normally are, and my sleep is very interrupted, meaning that I'm dozing, et cetera. But, somehow, I'm not, mmm, I'm not freaking out and I'm not stopping running. [0:02:00.2]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And yet, what I had assumed to be [co-evil?] or coincident or, you know, causally related to the same whatever, physiological phenomena, that lead me, for example, not to be able to sleep, aren't present. I don't you know, the constriction in my chest, the sense of kind of imminent danger, I don't feel, which on the one hand raises some issue for me with regard to what is causing the loss of sleep, you know what the pathway for that very, you know kind of destructive response is. And on the other hand, what exactly is going on that is preventing that is allowing me to, I wouldn't say negotiate this, because, you know, it's still kind of cocooning.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:03:10]

CLIENT: And yet, I don't it's like all of the behaviors are in evidence, except what I had thought was what kind of produced them in some sense, which is this kind of... This sense of oppression. Somehow, I had imagined that it was the sense of oppression that led to these other behaviors, in other words it was painful, like conscious. It was painful in a way that I felt very conscious and aware of, and it was kind of inescapable, and yet it appears that that was after the phenomenon. Do you understand what I'm saying?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so.

CLIENT: And I think I had imagined the pathway, something along the lines of, you know, there being this deficit of attachment, or my sense of attachment, leading to a sense of oppression and pain, and kind of just acute palpable suffering, leading to these other things, like you know, just -

THERAPIST: Right. [00:04:17]

CLIENT: engaging in time wasting behaviors and not being able to sleep, and so on and so forth, and it seems that somehow in fact, you know, this link was not in fact there.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: That somehow, I'm engaging in the behaviors, several of them, without that kind of emotional feeling state playing any specific role.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It sort of felt like it was mediated through.

CLIENT: And I don't know if I'm, you know, just kind of numbing myself or whether I've succeeded in evading something that's been very difficult or what, but it's kind of interesting to me I guess. That's really the only thing that I have to report, unfortunately.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: One of the practical implications of not being in this state is it makes it relatively easier to kind of snap out of it and interact with people normally. I'm not... [00:05:43]

THERAPIST: You mean, I'm not having the oppression part of it.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, that doesn't help the fact that I'm not sleeping much and it doesn't help the fact that I'm not working super well, but I'm not kind of engulfed in it. So that's substantive, I mean that's definitely good.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: But they're still there, so something's happening. There's some phenomenon at work that we haven't yet been able to arrange around.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

PAUSE: [00:06:26 to 00:07:39]

THERAPIST: So there are three things I gather, that are different, among the sort of usual collection of things that happen. One is that feeling of oppression, which goes along with the constricted sense in your chest, that's one. Two is you haven't stopped running. Three is that it's easier to interact with people. You don't feel as, I guess out of kilter and withdrawn from people around as you generally have, but things like working, sleeping, I imagine sort of feeling quite anxious.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean... (sighs)

THERAPIST: Those are still very much -

CLIENT: Feeling quite anxious is true undoubtedly.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:08:46]

CLIENT: And yet it's a different feeling somehow. As I say, my experience of it has always been that these go together, and I'm trying to understand what feeling anxious means in other ways. But yes, I mean I draw that from that.

THERAPIST: I wonder if you feel a bit less, as though someone else is kind of actively and maliciously doing this to you.

CLIENT: Was that a consistent feature before? [00:09:46]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you would I think there were a few times where we, not as much recently, but identified that you had the fantasy that various senior partners or maybe other people, like even when you kind of knew otherwise, were doing this to you, like were mal-intended, and you would say, I know they're not, you know, I...

CLIENT: There's still a little bit of that I guess, but you know, how do you understand the functioning of the bureaucracy if not as various people trying to work their will. I mean, like I still have a tendency to understand things in that way, as a kind of default, requiring some intervention on my part, to alter the alter the stock or fund of possible narratives, to include others where I have more agency. I'm not sure that's different. [00:11:47]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I mean, I think, if I understand the proposition you're making, what's implicit in it, you're drawing an association between the sense of oppression or kind of being out of control physically, or in my state of feeling, with the kind of cognition or understanding of the social universe in which someone else has control and is working their will. Is that so, did I get that right?

THERAPIST: That's the right general area. I think I mean something a little more specific than what you're saying, or a little different, although it's possible I'm just misunderstanding. (pause) I'm thinking of it a little more like when you're a little kid, for example, and you know, let's say your parents are making you go to the doctor or they're making you brush your teeth, or they're making you eat a vegetable, whatever. That's really a more benign example, but the feeling can be you evil overlord you, you're torturing me, you're doing this terrible thing to me because you want bad things for me, you know, you're malevolent. And it's like yeah, from the parents point of view, I'm not malevolent, you know, the broccoli is good for you, you've got to go to the doctor. But a kid feels like, you know, you evil villain, you have it in for me. [00:13:39]

CLIENT: Ah, okay. I mean, I guess I'm a little reluctant to equate that scenario with what we were describing, but I hear you I guess.

THERAPIST: Well, I remember again, for example with Phil, how he announced that he was leaving and he'd be flaky, or you'd be talking of even part of that, you'd be talking about an idea, and he would do something that would make you worried he was trying to take credit for it, and we would talk about it and you would say, like, it would sort of come out and say like you'd feel like he was a bad actor, you know? Like he was, in the sense of having malign intent. You know, you said like I know he's not an ass-hole, I know he's not really being a jerk here, but I feel like he's kind of out to get me.

CLIENT: Okay. In my fillings, I'm getting radio signals from outer space. [00:14:45]

THERAPIST: I mean, it wasn't -

CLIENT: (chuckles)

THERAPIST: You know, it was that kind of paranoid.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But you would say stuff like that.

CLIENT: Okay. I would say I would say both, I have this very overpowering, you know, kind of narrative, and I would say at the same time and yet, I disbelieve it. Okay, that's partly true. I mean, you know, the (sighs). Some of the strangeness of this interaction, I think for me at least, comes about because of a sense that a lot of the very troubling patterns or what have you, are just exaggerated versions of whatever the human being experience is. It's not, it's not as if in generally speaking, in the work environment, particularly at this particular institution or these kinds of institutions. You don't have to worry about that, I mean you know, like how do you know? [00:15:50]

THERAPIST: Well, you usually do, because it's usually to do with people you know well. I mean, we're not you know, like Phil or Jack.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay, so we do know.

THERAPIST: Or Kevin.

CLIENT: Kevin is a little it's dicier.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: Kevin is dicier.

THERAPIST: I mean your primary points of contact, and both partners and institutions, are people whom you can trust and think well of. I mean, you know Phil's a flake and you know Jack is moving on, which is not -

CLIENT: Jack is moving on, he's reluctant to assert himself.

THERAPIST: I see, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I mean I know right. So I guess, I guess if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that be that as it may, while it's true that these institutions have this dynamic and have people who behave in this way, I can only assume that in fact the person I'm interacting with at a given moment is behaving this way, if I forget the fact that I'm connected to them and that we have this longstanding relationship in which they've, in one way or another, demonstrated their attachment to me. [00:17:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think that's part of where the power of the magic phone call comes from.

CLIENT: Right, the magic phone call, that's right. (sighs) So, so the oppression, assume the oppression is uneventful phenomenal, the whatever it is, it's preventing me from sleeping right now, which clearly is a product. We know, from recent experience, that not sleeping is an outcome of feeling disconnected, you know, of not seeing my relationships of things, whether it's a job down the road or my connection to people. Yeah, I lost the thread.

THERAPIST: I assume you were going to relate that feeling of disconnection, the way it causes you not to sleep, with the feeling of oppression that's often gone along with it, but that doesn't seem to be as present now. [00:18:27]

CLIENT: I'm still feeling paranoid in the sense that limited the limited sense that you're describing. I still worry about Karl, the incoming chief of staff, and Steve, the kid.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean you know, there are all of these characters, and the less I know them, the more suitable they are for that purpose. I still feel as if the people that I had known for a while and trusted are going to just kind of see whatever commitment we have to each other, to them, allowing them to work there. I mean it's like these kind of stereotypes, scenarios, which reinforce my sense of disconnection I still have, but I guess my theme for today is just that I don't know what it means that I don't have I don't feel it in the same way. In other words, the experience at some level is the same, the causal relationships are the same, the stimulus and stimulus response are kind of the same, but the feeling state is different, as if it were just an overlay, which is bizarre on some level. [00:19:47]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. You're not quite in its grip in the usual way.

CLIENT: Well, whatever. Maybe I am in its grip, I can't even tell. All I know is that what I had thought was this sense of acute and present and overpowering pain that I had felt and had thought, you know, was kind of the pivot point, kind of isn't there, and I don't know what to make of that.

THERAPIST: And it's clear that I'm offering a partial explanation for that, although it doesn't seem to be the right one.

CLIENT: Am I rejecting it, maybe? The explanation that you're offering is that I didn't maybe I just didn't understand that.

THERAPIST: That generally, one aspect among other aspects, of this whole package of things that you experience when, let's say attachment is threatened or felt not to be there, one element of that package involves this kind of paranoid thought about the person you are attached to having it in for you. [00:21:15]

CLIENT: Yeah. And you were saying I'm not feeling that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I mean, there are other people that I'm feeling paranoid about, but not those people.

THERAPIST: And that still leaves you kind of maybe abandoned or alone, I mean there are things to be scared of. It's just not the same thing, like that element is missing, maybe.

CLIENT: Maybe, possibly. I don't know. I mean... (pause) And so why, if that's true, I mean that's the only in principle at least, assuming that the kind of original sin here is some failure of attachment, then some more realistic isn't quite the word, but some more generous understanding of my relationship to people ought to mean that none of these behaviors or symptoms are an evidence that I would have no problem doing work at all, but I wouldn't engage in all these time wasting behaviors, et cetera, et cetera. [00:23:24]

THERAPIST: Yeah, and practices really tend to work that way. You know, one thing loosens up, other things don't, you know there's kind of uneven movement.

CLIENT: (sighs) Okay. I don't know, Marshall, I'm not sure.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: I'm not sure that I feel I mean my sense is that I don't right now feel like Kevin is denying. I mean, I think that the narrative that I've been telling myself when I feel most kind of out of it, is something along the lines of Karl decided that you know, Kevin left it up to Karl, and is not really kind of asserting himself in terms of decisively moving toward some project, institutional structure that includes me. Karl, you know, is reluctant to work somebody in whom he doesn't control. Kevin is exceeding to this and therefore, I'm out, I think. You know, there's no more evidence for this than for the alternative explanation, which also occurs to me, which is just precisely as Kevin said in his note, you know they need to have an institutional framework into which I can fit, and need to work on that first. [00:25:14]

THERAPIST: I see. Yeah, I know. I should say, that's the first I've heard about any actual communications. I don't know the situation.

CLIENT: Oh, anyway, right. It was a very kind of explicit e-mail exchange where Kevin said, I want you to do... You know, this is what we propose to do. He said, I want you to do this but we need to work it out through the institution, Karl is going to be on it and he's going to get in touch with you. And this was like the 3rd of May and now it's the 27th of May or 28th of May, and I've heard nothing from Karl. I've gotten intelligence from Jack, that certain things are afoot, which would be consistent with trying to do this through the institution.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I don't know anything more about it.

THERAPIST: I'm forgetting whether your contract is up at the beginning or end of June.

CLIENT: End of June.

THERAPIST: End of June, OK.

CLIENT: So in theory, fine, but my contract yeah.

THERAPIST: In theory, in line for an entire four more weeks feels scary. [00:26:21]

CLIENT: Yeah. So anyway, that's what Kevin said and that's what else you've heard, pick up for some sort of stuff from Jack. And Jack leaves...?

THERAPIST: Also the 30th of June.

CLIENT: So, you know, if we're going to get this wired, we need to get it wired within the next five weeks, in just like a month, just kind of disappeared, and I haven't been down there in a month. So, yes, I have concerns.

THERAPIST: Sure. [00:27:24]

CLIENT: And I don't control anything.

THERAPIST: No. And I gather you're quite paralyzed when it comes to looking for alternatives.

CLIENT: Yeah, totally paralyzed and [Jennie's?] getting pissed about it or has been pissed. I think she understands that something psychological is afoot, but we have an immediate problem. I mean, you know, one of the complexities in that regard is that if I was to apply for jobs, then getting Kevin's recommendation would be important, but I kind of don't want to let him off the hook by... So there are some irrational components to this and there are some rational components to this. I don't want to let him off the hook, or I feel like if I said, okay, well I'm applying for X, Y, and Z, will you write me an endorsement, or can I give you as an endorser, then he would feel like well, you know, all right. There's no, there's no real need or obligation to, to make this happen in New York [00:29:02]

THERAPIST: That suggests an interesting model for why he would be. In other words, that he would be trying to make it work, largely out of a sense of obligation.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Rather than intimate and trust.

CLIENT: Yes, that is implicit.

THERAPIST: And curious.

CLIENT: And curious, probably more than we can discuss in the next whatever it is.

THERAPIST: We've got like just over ten minutes.

CLIENT: We've got time, we've got time. Well, it is curious and very distinct and very recurring, a recurring feature of this relationship, in my perception of it. I mean, I think that if I were to try and encapsulate the historic miscommunication, historical miscommunication between the two of us, it's probably on that issue of my having a sense that his commitment was out of a sense of obligation and his having a sense that my diffidence was out of a lack of desire to do the things that we were doing together, in other words. And that's kind of the crux of it. [00:30:16]

THERAPIST: Hmm. So, the crux of it is that you're feeling he's offering you things or wanting to work together out of a sense of obligation, and you're referring that he's feeling like you're sort of hesitance or diffidence, is because maybe you don't really want to do it, not because you're wary about his commitment to you. There's kind of uncertainty about if there's a commitment on both sides. [00:31:25]

CLIENT: It's like a classic miscommunication where the same event, the same interaction, the same phenomenon, is understood completely differently by both parties, in a way that stipulates both of their fears about the other.

THERAPIST: Right. Right. So you send an e-mail that says hey, would you be my endorser, among talk of other things, and you're thinking then he's not going to feel obligated to me anymore, so there's no way he's going to want to keep me around, and he's feeling yeah, because he doesn't want to do this anyway.

PAUSE: [00:32:10 to 00:32:57]

CLIENT: And I think a lot of my relationships are probably like that. I don't mean that exact dynamic is necessarily in place, but I think that is actually not uncommon.

THERAPIST: One thing I'm just wondering about is you're, as far as I can tell, are kind of seeming hesitant. You seem very conflicted about bringing up looking for alternatives here. On one side, you've expressed a few times, that it's really important to talk about, that you really feel stuck, that you really want me to help you with this. On the other hand, including today, you, and that it was me who brought it up, don't ever bring it up and is like okay, well let's think about it now.

CLIENT: The job you mean. [00:34:09]

THERAPIST: Yeah, like apply for other jobs or looking for other possibilities.

CLIENT: I've been reluctant to bring it up?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: Insofar as I came in here and instead of doing what I had said previously, that I wanted to talk about, I kind of talked about where I was at that particular moment.

THERAPIST: Yeah, or about yes.

CLIENT: Huh. Okay, well I'm not aware of that. I'll consider it, I'll think about it.

THERAPIST: I mean, you've brought it up in terms of kind of like feeling desperate for kind of my help talking about it.

CLIENT: True, I remember doing that on two -

THERAPIST: That we haven't talked about it, but you never come and say like all right, -

CLIENT: This is what I want to talk about.

THERAPIST: it's freaking me the fuck out, but let's think about, or I want to think about how I could possibly look for alternatives. [00:35:14]

CLIENT: I mean, I guess I'm not aware, I mean I wouldn't be aware, (chuckles) but I'm very not like sometimes will happen upon something of this genre and I'll say oh my God, of course, you know?

THERAPIST: Right. This is not like that.

CLIENT: This is not like that. I'm not aware of blocking it, I feel I remember bringing it up on several occasions, although previously, like two or three at least, although maybe not at the right time and not at the head of the hour.

THERAPIST: I mean for example, I have not heard you mention a single alternative.

CLIENT: Ah, well that's certainly true.

THERAPIST: Job possibility, institutions, a person to contact.

CLIENT: I have no idea. That is a very that is a very salient point. I have no I don't know how to do it. I can't see it, like I can't, I can't see it, I can't touch it. You know, it's clear to me that one of the reasons why it's been so difficult for me to kind of pursue a normal career path, has been that I have gravitated toward jobs where I know people. Ever since my father died, I have not applied for a job, or I've applied for a couple of them, but I've not kind of pursued the usual... And that's not quite true, but it was you know, I did it a few times, but it was extremely painful or very haphazard. So I applied for some jobs, but it was like, it just took forever, and then, you know, I only could do it at the very last minute, right before the deadline, and some of them, because of that process, were like not like there were huge copy errors. And I was pretty successful and yet, you know... (pause) So I kind of can't see it, I can't see how it would work. I don't know what I would apply for, like when I kind of, I look at listings, which is not that often, I can't see what would be appropriate for me. I'm not sure I'm describing my experience adequately, but that's very, that's very, very true. [00:38:11]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it reminds me of how you talk about writing, when you want to write or have something write and you can't write. It's like -

CLIENT: I can't see it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, completely disconnected. (pause)

CLIENT: (sighs) So I don't know what to do about that. Because I can't see it and because I feel like an incapacity or a block or, you know. Not an incapacity maybe, but an inhibition.

THERAPIST: Yes, an inhibition indeed.

CLIENT: I can't you know, by definition almost, I don't see the way forward toward it, and I think you're very right to bring that as I sort of, as we sort of dive into it or start chewing on it, chewing is better, I see what you mean, it's true. The failure to kind of push it in our conversations is the main topic, the main event or the main course.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:39:30]

CLIENT: You know, is, I think, in keeping with the difficulty kind of entering into it.

THERAPIST: I wonder if there's some feeling about doing that.

CLIENT: Feeling about doing that.

THERAPIST: That involves a sense of going it alone.

CLIENT: Huh.

THERAPIST: But I think it is an inhibition. I think there's something very scary CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: about any of these things.

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: And I suspect that it's about leaving.

CLIENT: Leaving. Yeah. No, I think that's certain through, no question about that, I'm conscious of that. That's not a revelation.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I've been in touch with that for a while.

THERAPIST: And that there's I imagine you kind of are terrified of being out there on your own.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's possible. I think I'm in touch with that too. [00:40:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But the, you know, the moment to moment implication, so the kind of ontological incarnation of that phenomenon is what you just said, but there's also a kind of what's the word I'm looking for? You know, it's measured in split seconds, rather than being measured in weeks and months. Incarnation of that phenomenon, that's it's more difficult, murkier sense of just being disconnected and just not being able to enter into, not being able to see myself in that framework of these applications or possibilities or advertisements.

THERAPIST: And it occurs to me that we have to stop, but I wonder if there's a small version of that there too. I was thinking of kind of leaving, going on your own, the end of the hour here. [00:41:54]

CLIENT: Oh, I was thinking that very explicitly, as we were talking anyway. It really has taken an act of will over the last ten minutes, to stay with the conversation, because I kept on thinking to myself okay, well it's time to go. So I kind of let you drive a little bit, but that was hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But it was the end of the hour.

THERAPIST: It's the end of the hour.

CLIENT: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT