TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CL: All right. Good. So we were talking about two things. One was negotiation and the other my difficulty working. Is that right, or have I retrofitted?

TH: (OFF-MIC)

CL: OK, fine. Right, so one of the things I did after the session with Phil (ph) on Tuesday was write up my understanding of the conversation in clear language, including, you know, the key problem of overlap. [00:01:12]

And, so we had a phone call afterwards, and I said that I hadn't pushed things. And I did. I hadn't that I hadn't had this confrontation.

TH: Right. I remember you told me that, yeah.

CL: Right, that I was (inaudible at [00:01:38]) a little bit. We did, it was very unsatisfactory from my end, in practical terms. He apologized afterwards, you know, very no substantive way. [00:02:04]

One thing that came out in the course of the conversation, in a way I found maddening, I guess, but entirely true, is. Well, you know, you didn't have to stick around. Having to say you're exploited when, you know, you could have walked at any time. Now, that is unquestionably true, and one of the great mysteries in all of this, I suppose.

On the other hand, I mean, I think the rationale explicitly has been that I have a lot of (inaudible at [00:02:56]), and that you know, without it being able to extract some return on that investment, you know, my prospects for getting something that is satisfying are are minimal. [00:03:18]

That has been the rationale. You know, as I think about it, as I reflect on that conversation and on, you know, it's implications for much of what we've been talking about for the last two years or so, almost exactly two years, I would say, that is that is what's in my mind. That's why I've stuck. Now whether that sunk cost is, you know, unremunerated, application of effort, you know, skill and talent or anger is, I think, an open question for discussion with a psychotherapist, but you know, that question, you know, why am I still here? [00:04:11]

I think is at the heart of what we're talking about. You know, why am I still angry, and if I'm still angry, you know, as somebody who has, you know, skills and interest and et cetera, why am I still beating my head against this wall?

And I think the, you know, the I mean, it's a bullshit question. It's kind of like a disgusting question, since, you know I said, I feel completely exploited. And he said, "Well, you didn't have to stick around." You know, after it became clear that I wasn't going to follow through implicitly, I wasn't going to follow through, you know, on our agreement at any level, you know, whether in terms of shared responsibility and authority, whether in terms of, you know, actual remuneration, in terms of, you know, and like in terms of the institutional position, et cetera. [00:05:15]

You know, you could well have walked. You know, so an interactive level is just kind of disgusting. At a substantive level, it's a great question. I mean, at any point in the last 15 years, really, I could have just, you know, all of this has, I think been motivating a lot of my brown-outs. I could have just said, "I'm tired of being in a system that's exploitative and that's not set up to, you know, to give me any return," whether you know, emotional or professional or what have you. [00:06:01]

You know, why am I still getting angry about it? What do I need, you know, before I'm no longer angry about it enough just to say, you know, (inaudible)? You know, so in the end, it's either crystal clear to me that A), I'm not going to get what I want to out of this interaction. If Phil (ph) wants to go to Egypt, or he wants to, you know, use the infrastructure that I created that he won't acknowledge to solve the problem of his wife wanting to go to Egypt to develop her own professional, you know, her own professional profile, and Phil (ph) having to go along with her. [00:07:14]

So he needs something to do for 50 percent of his time. Now, you know, it's clear to me that there is, I'm not going to get what I want to out of the system. It's also clear to me that there are things that I want that I can get out of the system. So it's stupid to burn them, and after this heated exchange, at a certain point, you know, he said things that were just so infuriating I knew that a breach was eminently possible, and I just sat there on the line. And this is not a strategy that I've been very good at employing, but on this particular occasion, I, you know, really did a fairly skillful job of keeping the relationship together. [00:08:06]

I just shut up. I just sat there silent rather than responding for a good minute or so of dead time, and then I said, "You know, let's just pull back and talk about the substantive issues," and the substantive issues were trivial. I didn't precipitate this heated exchange, Phil (ph) did. I mean, I probably said something like, "Listen, you know, we have shared responsibility on this project and have from the very beginning, and that's been an implicit, you know, premise of my interest in participating." At which point, he went off in saying, "No, that's not true. I'm actually, you know, blah, blah, blah." It's just ... At any rate, I mean, I guess my read in retrospect, after the conversation on Tuesday, is that he's feeling squeezed in terms of his, you know, kind of agency at home. [00:09:06]

I don't know, it's pop psychology, and so he's asserting himself in these other domains, and because, you know, of previous lack of follow-through, I have no institutional recourse, and he knows it, and he's exploiting it.

In other words, he, you know, can say whatever he wants to because, I'm venting a little bit, which is not very productive for our purposes, but, you know, because the position that was, you know, promised to me explicitly, nobody followed through on. I have no, you know, I have no position. I have no position. [00:09:56]

Because he didn't follow through on the salary in the framework that we discussed of applying for a grant, you know, I had to take the subordinate role to him within partners in hell which I had no intention of doing. You know, so whether consciously or, you know, by lucky accident, he's orchestrated this series of completely asinine decisions, each of which, you know, undermined my ability to engage with him, you know, at a level of equality in this final, you know, kind of final confrontation. And it is the final confrontation, because there's no point in ... what's the point in confronting after I either leave or don't leave? And, you know, there's no percentage for me in leaving. [00:10:56]

So we backed down and negotiated something that seemed a title that seemed, you know, about as good as I could get. He apologized, and that's where it stands. But I'm so angry I can't write. Like I've had this thing on my plate for two days now, just shortly after I spoke with you last, and I just I've not been able to penetrate, even though it's very discreet. I just, you know, it's just iterating a grant proposal that I drafted that will be one of the, you know, will fund one of the core deliverables that would be on my plate. (pause) [00:12:02]

And, you know, another thing that he said which is certainly true at some level, and again, fucked up in another, and more or less the same, you know, proportions in the same way, was that, you know, I'm displacing, you know, anger sort of systemic. This is anger at others onto him, which is true. You know, it's fucked up insofar as it refuses to acknowledge that to which I'm directly, just infuriated, infuriated by our (inaudible) true, that, you know, this feels, I don't know. Human beings are kind of homoanalogicus. You know, we make parallels, so who knows how fitting these parallels are. [00:13:02]

But a lot of them are within this system, they're systemic, you know, this kind of exploitation, this kind of, you know, kind of unwarranted assertion of authority by physicians is something that I've heard people complain about ad nauseum forever.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Both the exploitation and the sort of gravy train for, you know, other, this sort of the ... You know, so there is some kind of recursive function here, but I think also, you know, this exchange has taken on a kind of (inaudible) quality that I recognize and just, with a level of anger and outrage that I feel, which is not just specific, it's, you know, it's kind of logical. [00:14:09]

It's like it's, I don't know. Every kind of anger, hierarchical, or, you know, every anger over every episode in which I've been sort of squeezed and then I've contributed something under the ... what is the category? What's the precise, what are the contours of the outrage that I feel?

THERAPIST: (inaudible) you were exploited? [00:14:54]

CLIENT: I feel as if my commitment, affection, tolerance for ambiguity, I don't know, you know, willingness to think the best of people, willingness to suspend my nagging sense that, you know, they're in it for themselves, by communal instincts, I don't know, have been exploited and when, you know, I asked for some repayment for those affections or commitment or effort or skill or talent or what have you, I was just told, you know, hierarchically, you know, I outrank you, so I don't have to follow through on our agreement. [00:16:09]

Or worse still, the agreement was made with somebody else, even though they're in the same system, so I don't have to make good on it.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So, I mean, I as I reflect on, you know, the feeling or emotion that I feel that, you know, is sort of engulfing me to the point where I really can't do things that are clearly in my interest, I sense, you know, tendrils of this emotion just sort of extending out, you know, back into the mists of time, and it's like, anyway. [00:17:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's almost like a way of remembering.

CLIENT: Almost like a way of remembering. By which you mean to say that it is like a way of remembering. By which you mean to say that I am remembering.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: What is like a way of remembering?

THERAPIST: Being angry in just this way.

CLIENT: Being angry in just this way.

THERAPIST: With in just this context, anyway.

CLIENT: Angry in just this context. So your hypothesis would be that I'm preserving myself in this setting where I get angry because otherwise it would be difficult for me to integrate myself across time. [00:18:10]

It gives me a sense of connectedness.

THERAPIST: I'm saying it sure seems to work that way, among other ways. I'm not saying that's the whole cause, but I am saying like that it's part of how this is working to do just that.

CLIENT: But that's not exactly what you said, you said, "It's a way of," which I'll restate as, "a strategy for." [00:19:00]

It's not just that, you know, by a random sequence of events it happens that I'm able to remember things. You're say it's a way of remembering.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So at some level, (inaudible) the unconscious, I'm preserving this homeostasis.

THERAPIST: Yes. Yeah, and I'm not saying I think that's the total explanation, but I, yes.

CLIENT: And the alternative would be not remembering, presumably. [00:19:57]

Or at least the perceived alternative.

THERAPIST: I mean, I guess I can think of a few alternatives.

CLIENT: No, but I mean, if it's the way that some level, if it's a strategy, at some level, you know, there's evaluation of one kind or another in which, if I don't pursue this that I won't be able to get the desired result.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So what's the alternative?

THERAPIST: I guess it's the disintegration across time, (inaudible).

CLIENT: Maybe. (pause) [00:21:03]

THERAPIST: All right. So this is complicated, what just happened between you and me around this. (pause) [00:22:02]

I guess I'll just start with the last piece of it. I had the impression that you feel like I'm kind of blaming you for being in this situation that you're in.

CLIENT: I'm not conscious of blaming you at all.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I mean, I think it was a genuinely informational question when I asked you to kind of help me parse what you were proposing. I have, at time, felt frustrated with, you know, a sense that I was being blamed or being responsible for something that I don't want to be made responsible for, but I'm not conscious of having had, you know, that kind of resentment. [00:22:55]

THERAPIST: OK. (inaudible)

CLIENT: Now, you know, I mean, there's (inaudible) emotions at work here, so I'm sure I'm capable of not being aware of them.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: No, I mean, I think it's obvious that I'm responsible for not walking at any given point. I, you know, responsibility for not being able to work because I'm angry, for me at least, rightly or wrongly, is murkier. But you know, responsibility for the clear-cut series of decisions to remain in, you know, a web of relationships that's been completely unfulfilling to me. That's another story. So, you know, that raises, you know, the questions that we've been grappling with today so far. [00:23:57]

And I think your explanation sounds like one that might be plausible. I don't know how to interrogate it, and I don't know how to make use of it. You know, this (inaudible) question that I often throw back in your face. but it sounds, you know, just prima facie it sounds like a reasonable explanation. I mean, it is a great mystery. It is a great mystery. Why am I still not effectively looking for a job?

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) [00:25:12]

Interesting. It hits me that the conversation that you, the confrontation really, that you had with Phil (ph). You know, that could have been, and often has been, with Phil (ph) and with other people, the kind of occasion for the conversation that sets things, at least "righter" at the time and allows you to get working again. I guess what it where I'm going is to say, you know, I can remember lots of times, both with Phil (ph), and I think also at the bank where you were upset or frustrated or worried about something. [00:26:15]

And then had a conversation with a certain key person or important person involved, and it had just the opposite it went a very different way and had the opposite effect of allowing you to kind of get to work again.

CLIENT: But here's the thing, Marshall. I mean, at a certain point, you know, either there's a reality to it, or there's not. In other words, you know, so I remember one time I was talking with Phil (ph) and I was just furious because they just the department had just written back saying we're offering you this lectureship which is useless, and I applied for my own grants. [00:26:58]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And, you know, I had a conversation with Phil (ph) and I felt much better. Well, the reality is the reality. You know, at a certain point, it's like you can string these, you know, kind of placatory conversations together for only so long before you either say, "OK, well the reality here is that this is not going to work, so I need to walk," or you know, I'm going to, you know, say, "OK, you know, the buck stops here." You know, this is the end of the road.

You need to blog. At no point have I ever said, "You need to blog," until now, and when I finally said, "You need to blog," this is what I got in return.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, so that is another way of understanding this. Like it wasn't so much that these conversations were functional as these conversations were, you know, just sort of dissociative in some sort of broader sense. [00:27:59]

They allowed me to defer the issue that I was really angry about. Maybe I've diverted your thought. You ...

THERAPIST: I guess ...

CLIENT: What the difference in this between this conversation and the others that you could say?

THERAPIST: I mean, I guess I had in mind a model which I don't completely like, but I'll say it anyway. [00:29:07]

Because maybe it will lead you to think, which was that you maybe remain in these situations because maybe really a part of what you want is (inaudible) to prefer to have things done right.

CLIENT: I said that earlier.

THERAPIST: And ...

CLIENT: I want my return on investment.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And your maybe that isn't maybe that's complicated. [00:30:07]

Here's what seems to me at odds. On one side, you're saying now that, you know, the reality was the reality. Even if you had a nice conversation with Phil (ph) following being given the title, being given the lectureship, didn't change the fact that you couldn't apply for grants. And in that, then, you know, you're saying now you kind of avoid or defer the real problem. [00:31:07]

But, from an emotional level, clearly the conversation was quite significant in that it really helped you to get back to work, I think, if I'm ...

CLIENT: Helped me to get back into this, you know, that is complicated. So if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that on the one hand, there is this analysis or framework, you know, that implies that my persistence in, you know, a situation that's not very good for me, you know, is out of the continuity provided by anger at it's, you know, various ways in which it's not good for me.

THERAPIST: Right. [00:31:58]

CLIENT: And then another complementary, you know, contiguous framework is one in which, what is it? What is it that you're proposing?

THERAPIST: In which the repair, or something that feels at the time like repair, is, I don't know, helpful, satisfying, feels good, reassures you, I'm not sure what, something good. I mean, it lets you get back to work.

CLIENT: So that what I'm craving is that sense of ...

THERAPIST: Repair.

CLIENT: Repair, resolution. That serial resolution and, you know, the two, you can't have one without the other. You can't have the repair without the ... OK, well that's some of the complex function. I see what you mean. [00:33:11]

I think the maladaptation or maybe it's not my adaptation that's at issue, but the poor fit of, you know, me to this niche is prior, obviously, it seems to me. In other words, you know, I can imagine feeling a sense of fulfillment without this anger but without the anger there would be no opportunity for the sense of fulfillment.

THERAPIST: And let me, again, it's not a model here. It reminds me sort of like like I throw a trauma model where and the person kind of walks in master of the trauma, and have to get themself into the situation where the trauma could recur or does recur, in order to provide the opportunity. [00:34:05]

CLIENT: But there's no, in this system, there's and it's totally obvious that structurally there's no possibility of my mastering this trauma.

THERAPIST: But there are times to you when it feels, I think.

CLIENT: Like I might be able to.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Like there might be a prospect for somehow mastering it.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah. It sounds right.

THERAPIST: Is often the sort of how it goes with this sort of thing. You know what I mean? Like -

CLIENT: It sounds right. I'm just never going to get my investment of trauma or anger or outrage or, you know, being offended against. I'm never going to get it out. I'm never going to get the it's just not going to happen. I lost. [00:34:59]

I'm never going to get it out. I'm never going to be in a situation where I'm offended against in this way in this system and get it out.

THERAPIST: And I think the question that you're really grappling with is whether you're going to be able to stop trying. (pause) [00:36:05]

CLIENT: Well, and I think the question I'm grappling with in the most immediate sense is whether, you know, what is still on the table, which is frankly fine. You know, I think I successfully won the argument about, you know, being a director rather than being a manager, won the argument about being, you know, having it be something about international programs rather, without meaning, yeah, it deals with our kind of ...

You know, and it was two really interesting projects, but I think the question that I'm grappling with most immediately is just whether or to get rid of this, as so many times before, in retrospect, I just need to quit. [00:37:04]

Now rationally, it doesn't make any sense to do that, and yet, you know, what would it mean to give up on this anger? What it mean to give up on this, you know, this hope, ambition of, you know, mastering it by, you know, just sort of conclusively, finally, triumphantly resolving it in this way? What would it mean to give up on that, to just divest myself of it? And in retrospect, and it's interesting, speaking of, you know, kind of whose fault it is or that construction. [00:38:00]

You know, my interpretation of all of these just sort of abdications, you know, has always been that there was something mentally wrong with me, but you know, put into this framework, it actually, you know, maybe it wasn't a very adaptive strategy, maybe it wasn't like the right way to do this, I think, yes, but it makes sense in this framework.

I have that 8:30 feeling. How are we doing?

THERAPIST: Oh, a couple minutes.

CLIENT: So, I mean, so that's the way that it presents itself to me right now. You know, and I think there are sort of high-level manifestations of that, and low-level manifestations of that. High-level manifestations of that, you know, am I just going to say, you know, "Take this and shove it"? [00:39:02]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Low-level manifestations of that, am I just going to like not write this grant? And neither of them am I fully, you know, maybe being, sort of working this through as we are right now and being a little more conscious of what's going on allows me to be less reflexive about it in both cases. Hopefully that's the return on investment that I get from our conversation. But yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I think part of what you're implying is that not writing the proposal or telling them to shove it would be a way of like expressing and then being able to give up on the anger. [00:40:25]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's like it's interesting. It's like on the one hand, it's an expression of anger. On the other hand, it's a solution to anger. You know, if the ...

THERAPIST: I see, it's not just disengaging, it's kind of letting go, that's the fantasy.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's both, you know, just sort of giving expression to the thing itself, and just divesting myself of the ambition of ever coming to resolution. [00:41:02]

Just, you know, leaving, saying this system is not working.

THERAPIST: That part has been, I think, less clear somehow to me, particularly in things like writing is a little more clear like leaving.

CLIENT: Well, the writing always feels like a kind of suicide. I think I've said that to you before. It's like it's something that makes.

THERAPIST: I can see now how it fits. I just hadn't picked up on that. It's a kind of effort towards just letting this all go, walking away from the dynamic from the situations that make you so angry and infuriated. [00:42:03]

CLIENT: The situations, relationships. OK.

THERAPIST: We should stop here.

CLIENT: Good (inaudible).

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