TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Couple (inaudible). The first one is I'm going to need to be out here September 4th.

CLIENT: You're going to need to be out on September 4th?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Just in the morning. If I can reschedule I will let you know, but I'll probably know more next week on that. The other is a question, which is can you could you switch from 7:45 Wednesdays to 7:45 Mondays?

CLIENT: Sure. That would be fine.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: Starting 7/1?

THERAPIST: Well let me try to configure to accommodate as many (inaudible) as possible. I figured that might be (inaudible) for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, for me it's the same.

THERAPIST: OK. So I should know up through by next week.

CLIENT: OK. [00:00:58]

So let's see, Jennie (ph) is very stressed out and feeling a little embittered. They're only giving her two weeks of paid maternity leave.

THERAPIST: Oh. (inaudible).

CLIENT: Well, there are no family act says that you can't get fired when you get back, but they don't have to pay you while you're gone. No, that's foolish.

THERAPIST: I see. [00:02:00].

CLIENT: So basically unless she goes back to teaching after about three weeks and finishes the semester, we will only have my salary.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: And if it weren't for this, I would probably just tell them to go fuck themselves. That's it just gets worse and worse. So that feels that feels like a frustrating constraint on some level, as well as just in our household.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: She's feeling very disheartened, and I think that's ultimately beyond the practical issue, household appliances, it's tough. [00:03:10]

I mean, getting a tenured track job in the market of two years ago was a remarkable feat. On the other hand, she traded, you know, visiting lecturer job at Amherst for a tenured track job at MSU, and I mean, she has to teach (inaudible) and these things that are kind of all of her friends get paid maternity leave, and I think she's really struggling., impatience with that. [00:04:02]

As well as struggling to write, to not (inaudible) the facts. So you know, on the one hand there's stress (inaudible) school. On the other hand, you know, this makes a lot of calculations on my part more complex because they're constrained in time, not in a way that you feel is reasonable, legitimate, or inappropriate constraints, but (inaudible) immediate term in the immediate term, meaning (inaudible), taking care of the (inaudible), and leading to long-term (inaudible). [00:05:13]

You know, figuring out some arrangement which she could try, at least to have a career. You know, so what I've been urging her, for example, is you know, to get as much as she can done and go in the market and see her you know, she's talking about (inaudible). I mean, you know, she sort of the usual things you say when you're angry, just not very practical things. And an expression for frustration, and I said, "Just go in the market." And the last thing she said was, you know, "How are you going to go in the market with an eight-month old and (inaudible) teaching (inaudible)?" [00:05:58]

You know, so from my point of view, you know, on the one hand, obviously, you know, trying to figure things so I can be supportive or just kind of a partner with the baby, is a challenge, potentially. If I'm on the market, you know, and I'm thinking about taking a job or leaving this one prematurely, you know, my dander was up months ago. You know, how can I do these things if, just in terms of time and focus and attention, you know, we're trying to figure out how to get going on support that she can find the situation that feels good to her, so she feels better. [00:07:02]

It's like this is what's on my mind most immediately at the moment. It's really a fight to get them to follow through on, you know, giving me 50 percent time, let alone the kind of responsibility and authority that feels like I'm handling, you know (inaudible) from me. And what, you know, these interactions with Jennie (ph) mean is that basically I kind of have to take whatever I can get, and that's probably apparent. I can't really (inaudible) very hard because this is the only possible, at this job, at 50 percent, is really the only configuration that, you know, give us really any money during the months of November, December, which would allow me to work from home. [00:08:17]

(inaudible) And that's frustrating because I'm just so done and, you know, it's hard to work and pump it out at my level, which is what, paradoxically, I'm being asked to do for what I would need to do, I if I would need to develop something that doesn't exist. I mean, I would need to do things that I can do but that, you know, would typically require some authority and kind of agency to do. [00:08:59]

So I feel I feel caught between one set of needs that I'm very interested in serving, Jennie's (ph) and our household's and our child's, and another set of needs that I think is also, you know, very important to me in a kind of visceral level but whose contours are a little bit more uncertain, my own. And they seem in some sense to run at cross-purposes. I suppose I've been trying to think about how I can align them, but it's not easy. [00:09:59]

(inaudible) that they can be aligned. I think that's this morning's meditation, and then I guess that the other thing on my mind is just sort of a continuation of my conversations with (inaudible), which was interesting and I think I left feeling with some clarity, I guess. And in fact, it was funny, I was having a problem with my phone, one that was kind of a deterioration of something I complained about and I opened it and I called up the phone company, and I said, "I think there's a problem with my phone," and they're like, "No, there's no problem that would need replacing." And then they discovered that because I tried to have two phones replaced previously for not functioning, I had used up my returns. [00:11:05]

And they tried to make me buy a new phone. So anyway, whatever, I went I went into cell phone bureaucracy, and I came out of it not having to buy a new phone, and it was a little interesting negotiation in the sense that, and I knew immediately what they were trying to do, and I identified it, and I was identified it correctly, and I got out, you know, sort of audibly outraged, but it was controlled, you know? I said, "Listen, give me your supervisor, give me the supervisor." I talked to the supervisor, and God, we were on the phone for 45 minutes, Jennie (ph) had an OB appointment, so there were a little bit of constraints, but back and forth and you know, I kept on saying, "Listen, I find your personally." [00:12:08]

In other words, I was able to just sort of do the analysis and to present the analysis in a very cogent way that enlisted this person's kind of sense of fairness and he kept on saying, "Well, you can't do this and you can't do that." And I said, "Listen."

Anyway, it was it felt like a it's not a negotiation that I've always done well. In certain situations, I can sometimes fly off the handle, and you know, I flew off the handle just enough and sort of kept a critical gaze and it was and it worked. So I don't know. I mean, in reflecting on that afterwards, I thought that perhaps it was related to our conversation earlier in the day. [00:13:08]

Which was about Charles (inaudible), the serial (inaudible). And so I feel like something's we're talking about. (pause) [00:14:00]

(pause continues) [00:14:59]

(pause continues) [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: I guess I'm not sure yet what I could say. What else comes to mind?

CLIENT: I don't know. I had coffee with the supervisor I've known for a long time, the policy director (inaudible). [00:17:04]

She's they've she I was looking forward to talking to her and one of the reasons was that I wanted to ask her if I should start networking, and she told me that they're closing her department, so for 12 years she's moving. She doesn't quite know what she's going to do, so got word two weeks ago. She's, I don't know. [00:17:59]

I don't know, she's a woman in her late 40s, tough. She didn't sound quite she sounded sad. (inaudible) I don't know. [00:18:59]

When I came back from Holland, one of the things that was evident to me was that the fact that I really didn't know what I wanted to do was part of the problem. It was clear that that was part of it, I just didn't know, I didn't know what to do, and I never resolved that. And when I came back here I think I did so thinking perhaps that it would provide an answer to that question. [00:20:05]

That it had provided an answer to that question, that I was making a definitive choice about what to do, and one of the reasons that, you know, being sort of blown off in the way that I ultimately, this is kind of the last phase of being blown off in this way, or rather, you know, my contributions being very, you know, gladly accepted and then blown off is that I had come to the conclusion that this was it, that I was going to do this, and that was going to happen, because that was a viable framework that, you know, vision, model for me to do that. And that proved not to be the case. [00:21:00]

So I guess where that leaves me is with the same question, you know, I don't know what to do, and that makes the interaction with Jennie (ph) very complicated, because you know, if the challenge is you know, aligning these needs of hers and the baby's and the household's that I really, you know, quite conscientiously want to serve with my needs and I really don't have a very good sense of what my needs are, and that feels a little bit scary. I really don't know what to do. I don't know what's worth doing. I have a pretty good sense of what I'm good at. I have a pretty good sense at this point of the conditions in which I am challenged to produce. [00:22:03]

But, you know, I know what I can produce, I know what I'm able to produce, and all kinds of things that I'm good at doing.

THERAPIST: So I think, I think it might work like this. You know, I run into a lot of what you said, is the way you or other people have been insulted, really. [00:23:18]

By I think a critical aspect of how or what it's like in the sense of insult by people who supposedly have a, you know, a commitment to you or to Jennie (ph), or in this case, to the woman you had coffee with, to her. And that if in part, like I think that the insults that you in a way acknowledge them clearly, are very hard to sort of swallow. [00:24:07]

They're totally painful, and I think that that's I think it's something about the pain from that being hard to swallow that interferes with being able to think about what to do, and I think that the sense that you just sort of have no idea, but that things are kind of wide open and you're unsure of which direction to go is a kind of distancing. [00:25:07]

And in a way, like almost a kind of intellectualizing of the ...

CLIENT: I don't know, I don't know, Marshall. I'm not persuaded. I'm not persuaded. Maybe, I mean, (inaudible) a different matter, I think. I mean, it's kind of, you know, I was thinking through, you know, a kind of (inaudible), you know, conceptual framework on Friday, where you know, I'm kind of caught between, you know, the thesis of being in a situation that makes me angry, and kind of looking for those situations, almost seeking them out, situations where I'm not going to be well-served. [00:26:08]

And then the antithesis of when I'm, you know, when I'm in those situations in a way that, you know, makes it easier to insult me or, you know, leads to kind of overt disregard for my interests because I'm not producing. I was thinking about that afterwards, and here's, and I think that's a genuine insight and probably helpful at some level, but it doesn't explain perfectly, I guess, you know, for example, the other gig. Did I seek that out because you know, specifically because I have (inaudible) students, you know, who are not interested in this field. Did I have difficulty writing because etcetera? I mean, it just ... [00:27:04]

I'm not sure which way the causal arrow points on this one. I'm not convinced or persuaded that the anger begins with a sense of insult and points toward a lack of clarity about purposes. I think it's equally plausible that the lack of clarity in my purposes, you know, leads me to become angry when that desire is not fulfilled, even when I put out a lot of effort. And, you know, if that's the analysis, then, I don't know, in my rational heart, I can conceive the possibility that it's not people's obligation to give me something to do with my life. [00:28:00]

THERAPIST: If that's (inaudible) all how it feels or what you react to, kind of in those sorts of situations in any of the work venues that we've talked about. I mean, like after (inaudible), "Oh, you know, it's not their job to give me something to do." I mean, that, you know, that's like a really small piece compared to ...

CLIENT: Yeah, but I guess what I'm trying to say is that your, in your you just made an interesting proposal. (inaudible) offices that you know, it's if I manage this anger in a more constructive way, you know, maybe (inaudible) a lot of it it's negotiation over the phone repair, phone replacement. [00:29:07]

Then, you know, there will be much more clarity about what I want to do or I want to be, that somehow underlying everything underlying the anger is that self-knowledge, or that sense of clarity. And that's not clear to me at all. I mean, you know, that's a really important question here, I think. I don't even know. You you have a parameter for how much one can ever kind of have certainty about this or that or how much certainty's necessary in order to be therapeutic, but I don't I mean, I think that's an important question. I think that's a really important question, you know, if the real problem is that I just know what to do, then I need to figure out I need to figure out that question. [00:30:06]

Then, you know, it applies to different approach on my part and the real problem is that I'm just angry and I have to find some way of processing the anger better. Or, responding to the anger better. For example, you know, maybe it's the case. Let me put it this way. This might be interesting and relevant. My MO of leaving a situation that I felt stymied in really is perceiving as if your hypothesis were the right one, and you know, the right response to my really feeling a sense of direction is to leave the context in which I'm angry to remove that anger and summarily, so that I can think more clearly. [00:30:59]

And as I think about it, as I kind of recollect, you know, at some semi-conscious level, that was really what I was about. I just felt like, you know, I was just feeling angry or stymied or ...

THERAPIST: I think an important part of it is, sort of insult and feeling humiliated and that leaving, in addition, and to removing you from the kind of sort of the anger is also a kind of "fuck you, I'm out of here," or at least (inaudible).

CLIENT: No, no, I'm not sure. Maybe there's a "fuck you" element to it, but I think you could also interpret it just as trying to take some agency, you know, in a less melodramatic way. At any rate, so maybe that's part of it, but, you know, I think both of those themes really suggest that your hypothesis is one that, you know, that I also kind of intuitively grasped and pursued and acted on, and I'm not sure it's true. [00:32:07]

Maybe it is. Maybe it is, but if it is, then OK, two, so I have two questions for you. So you throw this out there, and I have two questions for you. A, what if it isn't? You know, what if it really is just sort of a problem that I had historically for reasons that we could probably tease out, of some kind of reflection on my biography. And, you know, what if it has if the anger is really, you know, epiphenomenal? A, question a.

Question B, what if it is? What then? What is the right course of action then? [00:33:01]

You know, clearly just sort of abdicating has in the past been self-defeating. I think that's obvious. It's really it's really been a problem for me. What's a better strategy? How do I manage the anger in a way that doesn't I mean, like the fact that I haven't been in unable to systematically apply for jobs is the same thing. It's just, you know, it ultimately, it's this conceptual problem. It's like I have no idea what to do. It's just like a manifestation of having no idea what to do.

THERAPIST: Yeah, except that ...

CLIENT: I don't know who I just don't know.

THERAPIST: I mean ...

CLIENT: I don't know what I'm qualified for. I may not be qualified for anything. I may be deskilled. It happens in this economy. You've had a chance to evaluate me. [00:34:01]

Talk to the HR department. That would probably go over very well. I'll put you down as a reference. Sorry. That has to have been done by some very out of control, very strategic person somewhere. (pause) [00:35:00]

THERAPIST: All right, I guess the evidence to me being the evidence to me that like you possess the capacity like the capability and having the talent, those two find work and to do it very well are overwhelming, like, you know, you at moments clearly outthink and out-write people like Phil (ph) or various other people at your job, or people at very high levels who are clearly very impressed with your work. And, who, in spite of, you know, for (inaudible) bring you back and seem to want to make it work and really run with ideas or other things that you have they are very excited about. [00:36:12]

I mean, these are not like, you know, burned out mid-level mediocre managers. These are like very smart, very capable, very high-powered people who, you know, you're up and the guy as you've told me on a few occasions, not in a braggy way, but just to sort of make it clear that like you're (inaudible) guy named Phil (ph). You know, you like, you have ideas that people like Alan (ph), or people like Kevin (ph) have been really impressed with, and have been able to not just have them, but do the communications around them, whether it's sort of explaining them to other people writing them down, writing kind of like actionable documents or institutions that everybody gets rid of. [00:37:12]

People, you know, they're really turned on by it, and I'm entirely confident that those skills are not like going out of style, you know? Or like are not, in demand for skills like that. And kind of relatedly, it doesn't make any sense to me, to be honest, like how you could be that good at strategy at a variety of levels and communication when it comes to I guess usually, you know, cause the oriented, I don't know what you call them. [00:38:18]

Like tasks, goals, whatever, and when it comes to thinking about where to look to find a job, you can think about who (inaudible), who to pitch this to, how to pitch it, how to bring in other constituents, and this and that so that they're going to get on board, and like you write the whole thing in one night, stay up until five in the morning, you come in and you present it, everybody's, you know, says, "Yeah," they're knocked over. But you can't think of how to look for a job? Like, to me, you know, that seems so incongruent. [00:38:58]

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: That, I mean, it screams hysteria.

CLIENT: Yeah, OK.

THERAPIST: I mean, you know, I'm (inaudible) a little bit, but ...

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: But the idea that you're pulling in like, OK.

CLIENT: There is there is some confusion about why I haven't quit.

THERAPIST: You have some confusion why you haven't quit, or ...?

CLIENT: Well, I certainly do. I mean, like why?

THERAPIST: Or the people around you?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, I was talking to Marcia (ph), the woman that we Providence Consulting Group, the woman that we hired to you know, to be on the ground for awhile. And she was just like, "Oh man, I would have quit months ago." And the premise of her saying that, and kind of the subtext, and tone was you know, you could have anything else. Like why are you hanging around here? [00:40:04]

And clearly, I mean I think the analysis for Friday was I'm hanging around because it's hard to leave contact with something, you know, and the something in Friday's analysis was this kind of thesis (inaudible) of me being angry and being reactive and just sort of preserving myself in the state of dependency. But I don't know the answer, so, I mean, you know, you presented, you gave my hypothesis and you presented evidence for it. Certainly the evidence suggests something funny going on, in technical parlance. [00:40:56]

THERAPIST: All right, I think I'm (inaudible).

CLIENT: (inaudible). There is something funny going on, but I don't know what the right response is, and as I say, I think these previous, you know, sort of, these abdications have, you know, which I'm very consciously in some sense, one of the reasons I've come on for so long, apart from everything else, is that I really do want to advocate again. I didn't want to kind of just get angry and then just leave. That didn't do anything good for me.

THERAPIST: Well, I think ...

CLIENT: I don't think leaving would have been wrong, but it was had something about the manner of my leaving was not I considered, it was reactive and very unproductive. So ... [00:41:53]

THERAPIST: (inaudible), I'd say two things to relate to that. The first is about what you're just saying. I see it a little bit differently. I think, actually, you have now a somewhat better ability to contain what you're feeling and a capacity to be less reactive. In other words, you have known this for many, you have known this is a problem for many iterations of it, and I think, you know, the last time you the last three times that you were reactive and did leave, it wasn't because you thought in your head this is a great idea, it was probably because you couldn't contain the upset.

And so now, I think what's different is not sort of the insight that maybe this is a good idea which is something I think that you've had for awhile, such as it is a capacity to contain the upset and the kind of insult and anger and kind of hang on. [00:43:01]

You know, or not be as reactive. I think one thing too, is if we're going to take seriously this idea that there's something fishy going on, what that means is there's something emotionally you don't want to deal with, because that's always what makes something fishy go on. Like now wanting to see something that, you know, in a way, one should be able to see. It's always about a disturbing feeling.

Now maybe I'm wrong about sort of what feelings are disturbing and how, like I still stand by my hypothesis, but I'm entirely willing to be wrong about that. What I'm not willing to be wrong about is when there is something funny like that going on is because you're upset, and upset in a way you don't want to be, which is why it looks like something else. We should stop right now. All right, we can talk more on Friday.

CLIENT: Sounds good.

THERAPIST: Take care.

CLIENT: I have a question before we leave, just you don't need to answer, we can talk about it Friday. The transcripts. What are your feelings about the patient looking at them?

THERAPIST: Let me think about it (inaudible). OK. All right. I'll see you at (inaudible).

CLIENT: See you.

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