TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: ... they should make Teflon (ph) clothing for. So, I have a few baby pictures.

THERAPIST: Oh, OK.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:00:08).

THERAPIST: Ah. Oh, that is so cute. Wow, he’s growing up.

CLIENT: He is growing up.

THERAPIST: Look at that.

CLIENT: It’s true.

THERAPIST: Very bright-eyed.

CLIENT: He is. Oh, there’s that one.

THERAPIST: Oh. Oh, that’s a great smile.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: That’s really great.

CLIENT: So, everybody had a really hard day yesterday. I don’t know. [00:01:01] I don’t know. I don’t know. I feel a little desperate to resolve this thing of mine, because I mean, you know, there are all sorts of things that will take time and energy to kind of patch through, and it just complicates everything. You know, I was being kind of an ass. Maybe I was being a little difficult. She was tired, I was exhausted. I mean, I wasn’t sleeping. And I just feel like – I feel, rightly or wrongly, I am not sure whether this is constructive or not, but I feel – and this is something that I felt about things in the past, so I’m a little bit – I’m skeptical, wary of it, of this impulse. [00:02:10]

I just feel, like, if only this could be resolved, then everything else would be easier. You know, figuring out the, you know, how to balance Jennie’s (ph) needs and my needs, and how to communicate our needs effectively. And I don’t know, I just feel like my (pause) – I don’t even want to call it intuition, because, again, I’m wary of it. My fantasy, probably the most accurate representation of it, is just that A, it’s feasible to deal with this in isolation from everything else, and B, that it is (pause) a complication without dispensing, which none of the others can be addressed independently. [00:03:02] Anyway, (pause) but...

THERAPIST: Where – is it applying for jobs?

CLIENT: Applying for jobs, but it’s not – I mean, as – I don’t know. It’s like being in a workplace somehow or being (pause) – I don’t know. For somebody with this peculiar malady, if I’m not being too forward in calling it a malady, for somebody with this peculiarity – I won’t beg any questions. (pause) I’ve gotten quite a bit done, but I just can’t get anything – it’s like I’m drying up without addressing it. I feel like – I don’t know. I’m rambling a little bit. Yeah, so it’s not just applying for jobs, it’s also just kind of imagining myself being – imagining myself functional within this particular kind of a setting, this peculiar kind of social arrangement/relationship institution (ph). [00:04:13]

I just feel completely mastered by it. (pause) I feel completely mastered by it, and I feel no mastery of it. And that combination somehow is insufficient, like, I don’t know. Every incentive, there’s every incentive to move on it, and I can’t move on. I’m just kind of immobilized. So I feel frustrated, and I feel kind of desperate, and I feel sad about the pressure, and tension, and stress that it’s introducing into our lives. Again, as if, you know, these things could be isolated from each other, I’m aware that that’s not the way it probably works in practice, but that’s the way it feels. [00:05:06] That’s the way it feels, that’s kind of how it’s feeling right now.

It was a really hard thing to really – and, in the end, I mean, it was – I don’t know, I felt Jennie and I were just not communicating or rather; we were communicating in a very tense, you know, way that led to more tension rather than relieving it. And finally, we went to bed, and I was mad, and she was mad. And before we went to sleep, (inaudible at 00:05:35), I just kind of reached across, and I said, “Let’s not talk,” you know, and we embraced each other and it was sweet, and we both went to bed that way, went to sleep that way. So, (pause) you know, there’s some – I think there’s good awareness on both of our parts that, you know, there are ways of interacting, that we have access to that, you know, help buffer us and our relationship from these particular kinds of stresses. [00:06:09]

On the other hand, it’s just such an energy sink, and I personally, and Jennie, and the two of us in tandem just have such scarce resources of energy, that I just feel like, “God, if only. If only.” (pause) And yet, it’s a small thing that we’re talking about on the face of it. You know, frankly, applying – it’s not even getting any of these jobs. Like, if I were systematically applying for them, I would feel better, Jennie would feel better. We would both feel a little bit more sane. I don’t know. I don’t know what the issue is, honestly. (pause) I mean, I know what all of these things we’ve talked about are. I know what the dynamics that we’ve discussed are, but at the end of the day, I’m just – I feel kind of mastered by it, and frustrated, and almost scared. (inaudible at 00:07:08) scared. Jennie’s scared. I mean, she said, “You know, I’m scared about our financial situation.” And she’s right to be, and I’m sympathetic to that.

I’m sympathetic to all of it. I mean, like, I’m sympathetic to her point of view, except, you know, to the degree that she’s been sort of grudging about the sorts of things that we’ve talked about. But, you know, I mean, from her point of view, I think this is [my read-it] (ph), that I probably articulate this in some way or another. You know, it’s like a premise of her agreeing to it was that by now, you know, I’d be well into the job search. I think that’s part of where she’s coming from. (pause) And she doesn’t feel like I’m into it at all, which is truth (ph). It’s funny, not surprising, but funny at some level that I have no problem articulating this to you. [00:08:02] I would never articulate [or explain] (ph) it to Jennie (laughing) at this point.

THERAPIST: Oh. What do you mean?

CLIENT: Just that – know I’m nowhere near – I mean, just being sort of frank and unvarnished about the difficulty that I’m having. It’s – you know, there’s a lot of tension between us over it, so – I wish (pause) somehow, and I don’t know what role this plays in all of this, I’m very (pause) – I guess I just feel ashamed in – about the trouble it has caused us. So it’s harder for me to be frank, and explicit, and unvarnished about it. I feel, (pause) I don’t know if accused is quite right, I feel ashamed.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, one thing that’s striking to me about all of it is in a way, like, the problem is the classic problem you’ve had of about not being able to get through the job search and particularly not being able to do some task that, as you say, [on their phase] (ph) (inaudible at 00:09:28) whatever, you know what I mean.

CLIENT: (laughing) You can explain (inaudible at 00:09:32), it’s not worth it.

THERAPIST: (laughing) No, it was agreement that I was going to go into.

CLIENT: Oh, I see.

THERAPIST: But, (pause) you know, aren’t conceptually difficult, aren’t, you know, that ownerist (ph) in and of itself to do, da, da, da. So, there’s all of that, which is how it’s (inaudible at 00:09:53). And on the other hand, (pause) like, in other ways, there’s really not much sign of Jeffrey (ph). Like, I haven’t...

CLIENT: Signs – yeah.

THERAPIST: ... seen it in here, and...

CLIENT: And usually, when I’m Jeffreying, I manifest it in my recap, as well? Is that what it is?

THERAPIST: Yeah, there’s, like, a sense of – you seem just sort free or more open, easier with me about it. You’re, like – I mean, you’re kind of clearly in touch with things we’ve talked about to do with this, as best as I can tell, and have generally been so, as we talked about this.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I know there was some kind of shutting down stuff that happened with Jennie, around the – like, the beginning of last week. I think we had talked about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it wasn’t...

CLIENT: It was different.

(crosstalk)

CLIENT: Yeah, it’s nothing...

THERAPIST: It didn’t last long.

CLIENT: Yeah, it didn’t last long at the time. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And mostly, you’ve been, it seems like pretty clear about (inaudible at 00:10:55), to kind of on top of, engaged with...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ... like, her, what’s going on with you and her, you know?

CLIENT: Yeah. I’m not – yeah. Yeah, I mean, one – finish your thought. [00:11:09]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: [You were talking about] (ph)...

THERAPIST: No, it just – it usually doesn’t work like that, you know, with those two things being so different.

CLIENT: I guess my...

THERAPIST: [I’m not sure] (ph) what to make it.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess my proposition or, you know, speculation would be that (pause) it’s different because it’s Jennie. You know, it’s not the great beyond, you know, the workplace, colleagues, people who I feel less secure with and more threatened by. It’s somebody that I’m intimate with. And also, I mean, it’s like this mode of resolution or immediate resolution last night, I think is really important in understanding that difference. [00:12:01] The difference between Jeffrey and whatever, you know, sub-Jeffrey is or Jeffrey sub one, that, you know, there’s a channel of communication that you have with an intimate partner that is just not possible. Just reassurance, mutual reassurance, communication, kind of re-establishment of the connection that is there, and that is very strong, and established between the two of us.

And, in fact, I mean, frankly, it’s this mode of communication that I think sealed the deal with Jennie and I. I remember very early on in our dating, she was feeling bad. I think she had a migraine. And we just did this thing, which we still do, where, you know, she would lie on the couch and I lay on, you know, a fairly narrow couch holding her, and we just kind of cuddled like that. And, you know, we weren’t talking. [00:13:00] She couldn’t – she was really having a bad migraine, and we just sat there, you know, with this other kind of communication. So that – you know, my speculation would be that having that channel and having that, you know, security of that connection is the difference.

THERAPIST: Well, it...

CLIENT: Whatever it’s worth.

THERAPIST: That means the channel must have grown stronger and more secure or something, because, you know, there’s been plenty of Jeffreys throughout the relationship with her.

CLIENT: You mean between her and...

(crosstalk)

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, she would talk about you kind of...

CLIENT: Right. Right. But was I reacting to her – I mean, in those instances...

THERAPIST: It wasn’t necessarily in relation...

CLIENT: In those instances, was it a reaction to her? Because I mean, what we’re talking about right now, it’s between me and her. This – you know, the difficulty presents it by my inhibition against being in a workplace. [00:14:04] I mean, I think that’s – you know, it’s like we didn’t talk about the immediate task, which is, you know, doing the job applications, but you’re quite right. You know, it’s really about I’m measuring (ph) myself, you know, in the initial phases of the workplace, which is the application process, the subsequent phases – it’s like all of these interactions that gave – clask (ph) in this rubric, this kind of classic – I don’t know. I mean, it’s like – it’s as if I have just be acculturated in a social environment and – that’s very discrepant from this one, this kind of, you know, bureaucratized, boudoir (ph) existence. And I have a really difficult time imagining, you know, and unaccountably and unreasonably and...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:14:58) is the word? And that’s something even bigger actually, than not only job applications and not only a job search, but a job itself, per se. It sounds more like sociocultural ego. [00:15:10]

CLIENT: I – maybe I’m just – it’s – whatever.

THERAPIST: And maybe you’re not. I mean, those (inaudible 00:15:13) library things...

CLIENT: Whatever.

THERAPIST: ... certainly point that way, too.

CLIENT: Whatever it is, in any case, without getting into an exhaustive analysis of exactly what’s going on here, you know, now it’s between me and her. It’s not my applications. It’s, like, this inhibition and the difficulty with it, and the worry about the effect that it might have on my connection with somebody.

THERAPIST: Right. It’s not between somebody, and then...

CLIENT: It’s not between me and Phil. It’s not between me and Luke or Justine or Kevin, it’s, you know, it’s between me and Jennie. And this is the one relationship where – and I guess one of the fears that I have is that I could fuck it up, by just presuming too much, if you know what I mean. [00:16:01] In other words, you know, laying too much on us, and just kind of going with the flow and not addressing something that needs to be addressed, because I feel secure. You know, so paradoxically, my sense of security could endanger, you know, the very thing that I feel so secure in. And we’re not at that point yet, but, you know, I mean...

THERAPIST: It is serious business.

CLIENT: It’s serious business, and I feel a little – you know, just getting back to the head of the hour, I feel a little desperate about it. (pause) And Jennie feels desperate, I sense, about how to communicate with me, because, you know, she is sympathetic. She doesn’t know – understand what’s going on, and yet, it’s been years now. (long pause until 00:19:06)

THERAPIST: Well, [I was going to check with you on the] (ph) – being (ph) mine is actually that this problem with you doing the applications and moving on the job search is something you and Jennie are both quite worried about, feeling desperate about, (pause) and it’s clearly affecting things between you. [00:19:28] I don’t know that I would say it’s between you, it can say it isn’t, in the way that it would’ve been between you and Phil or you and Kevin. It seems to me actually that it’s between you and your fantasy life about jobs and job searches. Do you know what I mean? Like, (pause) I guess, maybe it’s – [you could sort of split] (ph)...

CLIENT: But you were – we were talking about Jeffrey.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, you know, which is our sort of half-joking way of personifying, you know, whatever my reaction to these things is. [00:20:06] And I think we agree that Jeffrey is, you know, a reaction that I have to certain kinds of relationships. And by not entering into the job search, by definition, I have no relationship with any individual human being, you know, associated with that process. I do have a relationship with Jennie. You see what I’m saying? In other words, you know, what would potentially, according to my speculation here, trigger, you know, bertian behavior or whatever affect would be, I’m, you know, actually doing it, paradoxically.

THERAPIST: Well, I mean, I think there is Jeffreyian behavior, which is that you’re not...

(crosstalk)

THERAPIST: ... getting the job search, and you’re also not... [00:21:01]

CLIENT: But you – you’re...

THERAPIST: ...talking about it.

(crosstalk)

CLIENT: You’re making a differentiation between the actual, you know, kind of avoidant behavior and something associated with it, which includes, you know, just not – inattention to my immediate environment and, you know. And there’s something – there’s some of that that probably I could point to. Like, you know, my room is kind of messy. It’s not, like, a catastrophe, but it’s messy-ish. So, you know, there’s a little bit of that, but I don’t know. It’s not full-on. And my hypothesis is that it’s not full-on because the kinds of relationships that feel very tenuous and that feel, you know, a significant risk of hurting me, have not yet been initiated. [00:22:01] The relationship that is very present, between me and Jennie, feels more secure. And therefore...

THERAPIST: So there’s really a sort of...

(crosstalk)

CLIENT: ... I don’t, you know, exhibit this affect. The affect that apparently spills over into my, you know, description of these interactions for you, and maybe my interaction with you, right?

THERAPIST: Right. Yeah. I see. So, you’re saying, like, (pause) in a way, (pause) you know, if we have a room called, “The Job Room,” it’s what happens in there that can cause you to Jeffrey outside, but at the moment, you’re just keeping the door shut?

CLIENT: Well, you know, if Jennie and I were not in a committed relationship with – I mean, (inaudible at 00:22:54), whatever, you know, married, for all intensive purposes, and we were dating or something, then it might well be that that – in other words, it’s not – I’m theorizing. [00:23:07] It’s not about, you know, the kind of relationship that it is, but rather the security and the kind of security and the durability or reliability of it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (inaudible at 00:23:18).

CLIENT: But, you know, on the other hand, this is also the good, in some sense, because now we know that, you know, I have the capacity not to Jeffrey, even when there’s stress, even when there’s strain. And, you know, I probably would’ve been more Jeffrey had our appointment been yesterday around 8:00 p.m., but whatever. I’ve clearly recovered with a reasonable amount of alacrity.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause) Yeah, well, in your – (pause) I think, also, that you do seem to be – I mean, not doing the job search, and I think also, like, not talking about the nuts and bolts of it here, (pause) seem to be ways that you’re just keeping the door shut on that part of your life. [00:24:40]

CLIENT: Well, let’s talk about the nuts and bolts of it here. I’m not sure that I – I mean, I have no problem with it. You know, it involves crafting, you know, the CV for a specific – you know, it’s in conformity with a specific strategy of going after, you know, academic – I mean, hopefully relatively senior academic, I don’t know, bureaucracy jobs in the Providence area, you know, that would allow us to stay here and let Jennie pursue – I mean, I think she’s feeling – so, I’m diverting the conversation. (chuckles) [00:25:20]

OK. Let’s ignore for the moment how she’s feeling. But, you know, so that would emphasize, you know, my knowledge and familiarity with, you know, academic job structure and my commitment to, you know, maximizing the experience and, you know, of the students and the academic community. Things, which I can certainly craft a convenient fiction about it. It would not take an enormous amount of time. And then, it would involve, you know, basically going both on Listserv, [where these things] (ph), like, chronicle higher education, and probably that would be enough, actually. [00:26:00] Chronicle higher education and just, you know, finding all the people who have postings.

And I’ve also mentioned (inaudible at 00:26:06), and quite frankly, at this stage of the game, taking – you know, applying to everything, you know, in a wide swath from, you know, very relatively senior roles to possibly temporary, but relatively less responsible roles. I mean, you know, we need money. And my investment in (pause) this as a career path is not sufficient. I think that I would be grossly dissatisfied with something that felt unworthy of me. I don’t know how that works in practice, and I don’t know how much of a fear that I wouldn’t be able to get the things that I feel, you know, are worth my while on how much of a role that plays in my reticence to even find out. [00:27:06]

THERAPIST: Would there be networking too or would this mostly be just...

(crosstalk)

CLIENT: Well, there’s a rub. There would be, there would have – I mean, networking. (pause) Like, writing to my friends and colleagues and saying, “Will you write a reference for me?” or writing to friends and colleagues and saying, “Have you heard of anything?”

THERAPIST: In any (inaudible 00:27:30).

CLIENT: Either or both, just saying, “I’m on the market”?

THERAPIST: Yeah, reaching out for some reason to people you know, about this.

CLIENT: I mean, I know the and I’m friendly with the, you know, the Dean, so I could write to Devon. I think he’s back, he was sick. Yeah, sure. Why not? (pause) I could. [00:28:01] (pause) I think – if I were to innumerate all of the things that feel like obstacles to initiating this process, it’s probably that.

THERAPIST: The networking part.

CLIENT: With people in my existing...

THERAPIST: That’d feel like the hardest...

CLIENT: That feels...

THERAPIST: ... fucking (ph) thing to do.

CLIENT: ... very difficult. And what feels most difficult somehow, is the sense of disclosure. Like, I feel safer with nobody knowing exactly what I’m up to. And that is a very pervasive impulse or just way of interacting with the world, that being exposed feels very unsafe. (pause) I don’t know what that means, but somehow, like, when I think about not wanting to make contact with people... [00:29:05]

THERAPIST: That’s why now (ph)...

CLIENT: Part of – you know, I mean, guess it could be described as not wanting to test whether they would actually be responsive to me and helpful, whatever, but somehow what really feels scary is letting them know that I’m (pause) asking for something and, you know, that there may or not be a process that eventuates in me, being embraced by somebody.

THERAPIST: I imagine that touches for you on the shame. You feel like a...

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, or, you know, that is the shame or something. In other words, you know, there’s – yeah, it’s kind of a performative utterance, in the sense that it’s the expression of the shame. [00:30:02] (pause) And that reluctance is how the shame gets expressed.

THERAPIST: Oh, OK. I see. Yeah. I thought you meant the reaching out itself. Not that I didn’t understand, but you mean...

CLIENT: Yeah, well, whatever.

THERAPIST: But the reluctance to reach out, that I understand, yeah. And (long pause)...

CLIENT: I mean, it’s interesting, when I was applying for academic jobs, the difficult part of it was writing cover letters, you know, because the CV was written. [00:31:16] It wasn’t like I had to reproduce the CV each time, but writing cover letters. (pause) Now, that doesn’t seem so daunting somehow, although, maybe if I were actually doing it, it would feel very daunting. (chuckles) But it’s the other stuff that feels scary. And there’s no reason for it to feel scary. I don’t know, man (ph). I don’t know. I don’t know.

Here’s another, you know, just clear tangentialiary (ph) that I have, and that’s that our conversations are somehow, you know, making it easier for me to evade this necessary task, rather than facilitating the resolution of the admission. [00:32:03] That, you know, we could yak about it forever, you know, without really making a dent in whatever’s going on. I think – (pause) I say this, I think fairly matter-of-factly. You know, in other words, maybe in the past I felt, you know, sort of – at least had some kind of transference, you know, relationship, in which...

THERAPIST: Well, I think they’re – (inaudible at 00:32:34), it’s a little different.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It seems to me that you started to look and sound somewhat different as you did start to talk about the nuts and bolts, and particularly about reaching out to people.

CLIENT: In other words, more Jeffrey or what?

THERAPIST: Maybe a smidge. I mean, like, you just seem more anxious, a little more...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ... tense.

CLIENT: OK. Well, that shouldn’t come as angry, surprised, should it? [00:33:04]

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, in a way, it’s very predictable, but in another way, (pause) you know, there are moments when you’re not talking about it, where you seem sort of mystified about what’s making it so hard, in a way. Like, “Oh, I can talk about it. It’s not a big deal,” but it kind of is a big deal to talk about it. (pause) And then, the first thought you have after is sort of the first foray into it, is, “You know, I don’t know if we’re going to an (inaudible at 00:33:46) anyway.” Like...

CLIENT: (laughing) [You’re not fair] (ph).

THERAPIST: (chuckles) And, you know, like, I am sympathetic to our not having resolved it yet, and your...

CLIENT: I’m glad you’re sympathetic, too.

THERAPIST: The general point that you’re making – yeah, but... [00:34:02]

CLIENT: (laughing) Inappropriate (ph).

THERAPIST: ... the timing, to me, is a little suspicious. (chuckles)

CLIENT: The timing’s a little suspicious. OK, fine. Fair. Fair. Well taken. At any rate, yeah, like, I don’t have a problem – I don’t have a reluctance to talk about it, maybe that’s a better way to put it. It’s not that I don’t feel like there would be any emotional cause to talking about it. I don’t feel as if I have no inhibition to, you know, addressing any aspect to it, including talking about it. (chuckles) But I don’t feel like – you know, I’m willing (laughing) to talk about it. I mean, it seems like an important distinction. I’m tractable. (laughing) I’m not, you know, (pause) non-compliant. (laughing)

I mean, I’m not – in other words, I’m not – I’m happy to move down the road toward addressing it. [00:35:04] I just am genuinely troubled and made anxious by this process, in a way that’s very profound. And so I’m completely unsurprised that my demeanor may have changed when the subject is opened up. And yet, I don’t have any problem opening the subject up. (pause) I don’t have any reluctance to open the subject up.

THERAPIST: I guess – I think it’s a little more complicated than that.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: I (pause) think you’ve been avoiding it for quite a while. I don’t think that it’s been conscious avoidance, and I think that’s why you’re honestly saying now, you know, as far as I’m aware, “I’m happy to talk about it.” [00:36:00] But I do think...

CLIENT: You mean between...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: In our conversations, I’ve been avoiding it for quite a while?

THERAPIST: I think so, yeah. I mean, this has been front and center, along with other things...

CLIENT: For months.

THERAPIST: ... for months.

CLIENT: And yet, I haven’t done what I did today, which was to say, “OK, fine. Here you go.”

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: OK. So...

THERAPIST: So what I am inferring from that is that, (pause) you know, unconsciously, you are avoidant of it.

CLIENT: In our interactions?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: So my avoidant behavior, which I freely – you know, I mean, you can’t avoid my avoidant behavior. (laughing)

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Right.

CLIENT: Goes so far as to affect the path of our conversations?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: I mean, I...

CLIENT: I mean, it was – I guess my excuse until Tuesday was that when I had previously moved in that direction, you had called, you know, talking about – whatever. [00:37:12] I mean, it was a convenient confusion. You had said that this was more instrumental than you liked.

THERAPIST: No, no.

CLIENT: It was...

THERAPIST: That this something from the other day...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ... that we didn’t get into, but...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...no, I have no problem...

CLIENT: I understand that that may have been a confusion on my part. And it’s possible that it was just sort of...

THERAPIST: But if you’re asking me sort of “Well, what should I do...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ... can you give me some strategies for sitting down and actually getting things done?”

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah.

THERAPIST: That, I don’t think would be...

CLIENT: You’re reluctant to pursue that.

(crosstalk)

THERAPIST: But that’s very different, as, I think, in a way you know...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ... from your saying, “Oh, no. This is the part, [this is] (ph) hard. That’s part’s OK, this part I’m worried about. When I think of this, I freak out. When I think of that, I’m all right.”

CLIENT: OK. Well, I – what I had understood, again, you know, this is complex, I suppose. But what I had professed to understand, consciously at least, was that the details of the, you know, of the process, we were less interested in somehow, than the overall affect. [00:38:17]

THERAPIST: No...

CLIENT: And so, you know, the fine grain detail involved in the process of sitting down and, you know, addressing this inhibition, the practicalities of it were not, you know, what...

THERAPIST: Right. That’s not my view at all.

CLIENT: And I think that when I felt very frustrated with, you know, our interactions, part of it was my sense that it was – it would be important to talk about the practicalities. At any rate, you know, I guess that’s interesting.

THERAPIST: I guess in my – I mean, to sort of clarify [what I heard] (ph)... [00:39:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: In my mind...

CLIENT: I get it now, I think.

THERAPIST: ... a lot of the affect and the fantasy...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ... is as evidence or as more evident in the sort of nitty-gritty like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it would have to be. At any rate, any – I would say that it would be very difficult to disentangle the actual aversion to talking about it from, you know, this sense that we we were not...

THERAPIST: I have an aversion to talking about it?

CLIENT: ... interested in these kind of specificities. If I had thought about it, and, you know, my reluctance to give it significant thought, it wouldn’t have made as much sense as it seemed to. But, you know, it wasn’t purely, you know, avoidance behavior on my part. One interesting question might be why I feel so – you know, why I’m putting so much emphasis on distinguishing these two phenomenon. [00:40:10] I don’t know the answer to that, but, you know, it – (pause) I don’t know. I feel like parking that question.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I don’t know. I don’t know why I’ve been avoiding it, (inaudible at 00:40:23) these many months at the end of the day. And I accept, you know, that there is certainly some quantum of avoidance involved. But anyway, I’m not avoiding it now. (pause) So now, you know, what’s the next move? Having successfully opened it up at the cost of, you know, some fluidity in my narrative and, you know, at the cost of some sense of equanimity, and some uncertainty, and – in our interaction. What happens now? [00:41:01] (pause) I put the ball in your court. (pause) If you’re right, I just did something that was somewhat difficult.

THERAPIST: By putting the ball in my court?

CLIENT: No, by being – you know, doing this thing that apparently I’ve been avoiding for months, which is to talk about my sense of...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I agree. I think you did. I mean, I think that’s, like a – to me, what you just did seems like a first foray...

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: ... which is both important and necessarily quite limited (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, you know, you said, “Well, (pause) you know, I don’t know why I don’t want to do these things, like, [fix up] (ph) my CV. And, you know, I guess then the next thing I would have to do is look at these Listserv or (inaudible at 00:41:54), higher education. (inaudible at 00:41:57) getting [sent in] (ph), and that, you know, that would be harder, because that’s...” I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:42:01) about the shame that you feel, but then you sort of pause, and something might [arrive to you] (ph) and then we sort of – (pause) I guess that was the foray. And then we sort of talked about – I brought up how you seemed more anxious, and we sort of got going from there. But (pause) that reminds me there’s a lot more to learn, is what I’m saying.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: From...

CLIENT: So, ready, set, learn.

THERAPIST: (chuckles)

CLIENT: From what?

THERAPIST: (pause) From what you have to say about – (pause) OK. So for example, (pause) how do we understand? [00:43:02] How do we understand what’s going on with your feeling (pause) so ashamed of reaching out to people? Like, you know – (pause) I don’t know. I mean, we just have a couple minutes now, but clearly, there are some things – oh, go ahead.

CLIENT: I just had a completely random thought, which, you know, I’m aware you pay more attention to than most people.

THERAPIST: (chuckles) Yeah.

CLIENT: And the thought was, you know, periodically, I have this, I don’t know, concern, curiosity, whatever, (pause) prejudice that talking to people hour after hour, therapeutic hour after therapeutic hour, is boring for you. [00:44:00] And the thought that just occurred to me was, “That’s really interesting or odd, but I would assume this thing that you do, you know, hour after hour, day after day is unpleasant.” You know, and specifically with regard to – now, you had laughed. What triggered the train of thought was your laughing. And I thought to myself, “Well, I wonder if I’m funny to people.” (laughing)

THERAPIST: (laughing)

CLIENT: That just sounds really sort of solecystic or whatever. And then, I thought to myself, “Well, you know, probably not.” You know, in fact, I’m probably not even that funny. In fact, nobody’s probably that funny. And it’s probably really awful to have to laugh at, you know, people’s jokes, you know, hour after hour. And then, so as I say, it’s an odd thought that this thing that you have chosen as your vocation would be, you know, just unpleasant and terrible. (laughing) It’s hard on your bladder, I suppose, but...

THERAPIST: (chuckles) (inaudible at 00:44:55).

CLIENT: That seems significant, I guess, in juxtaposition against my... [00:45:01]

THERAPIST: It does. I mean, just...

CLIENT: We have to stop. [Yeah, I know] (ph).

THERAPIST: ... my first quick thought is (pause) that reminds me of your reaction in the library steps.

CLIENT: It does, doesn’t it?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It really is a sort of more intimate expression of the same impulse.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But we do have to stop.

THERAPIST: Yeah, we should stop.

CLIENT: So, I’ll...

(crosstalk)

CLIENT: ... see you on Tuesday.

THERAPIST: Sounds good.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thanks, you too. Thanks for showing me the pictures.

CLIENT: Oh, my pleasure. (laughing) Thanks for looking at them.

THERAPIST: Sure. That’s my pleasure.

END TRANSCRIPT