TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I was remembering something that just popped into my head as I was walking in the door. So when I was interviewing for jobs three years ago now; academic jobs, you know, it was a story. I mean I probably sent out ten resumes total of which maybe five were viable, in the sense that, you know, they weren’t done in the end, two minutes before I’d hit the deadline, and so on. [0:00:54]

Out of those, I ended up getting three conference interviews and two campus interviews. So I was feeling very – at this moment, I went on the student campus interviews; I was feeling very good and very helpful. So the Ohio State interview went very well, then I had another at Northwestern immediately afterwards.

It was weird, I mean it’s a great job in a sense that it’s like it’s in this kind of rural area just beyond the Chicago metropolitan area, so it’s like an hour or hour and a half into the city. It’s a pretty conservative school for a liberal arts school. And the history department was really weird; like, I don’t know. It seemed like some of the people were very energetic and some of the people were really deadwood. [0:02:13]

But you know, the talk went very well, and yet, it was some very weird vibe in the air. And I talked to the guy who’s probably most energetic and successful as on PBS all the time; does American history. He said, while we were having our kind of one-on-on, which I had with all the members of the department; something like, “Yeah, you know, I wouldn’t count on this one, because people are threatened by you.” I can’t remember exactly; he put it almost as boldly as that in his terms.

I’m like, “Okay, whatever,” you know. And I guess I was struck by it; I’m like what the f*** am I going to do? I gave a very good talk, and was very game, and said what I thought were all of the right things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [overlapping conversation at 0:03:15]

CLIENT: You know, and like somebody took me to the library and showed me Northwestern’s sword, which is kept in this vault in the library, and I’m like “What the f*** am I supposed to do?” But I smiled, and they snapped a picture and sent it to me by e-mail. I never – okay, well I’ll tell that (Aurora) (ph) after it’s over; after the rest of the story’s over.

In any case, we went out to dinner with a couple of faculty, and I remember, we went out to lunch and then we went out to dinner. And there was one guy who ran the French program, and he tried to speak to me in French. I remembered thinking, this is really stupid, you know. I mean I can speak restaurant French; I read very well in French. But what is this about? And I just answered him in English. I thought that was a little weird. [0:04:09]

Then at dinner, I told a story, which is kind of a meaningful story to me, that related to (pause) (sigh), to what I think the responsibility of academics is, you know, if you’re going to be in a state of some repose, to keep these kinds of things in mind. Anyway, the story is that, when I went to Switzerland to do my dissertation field work for the first time, after which I abandoned it for, you know, about eight years, more or less. No, I abandoned it for four years and then I abandoned it again for another four years.

I was in the courtyard of a mosques, and I was going up to the prime ministerial archives. Yeah, I wanted to look nice, and my shoes were pretty scuffed, so you know, there’re a lot of shoeshine people in that area; it’s right on the edge of the marketplace. [0:05:27]

So I went to one of them, and there’s this really really nice guy. And we just started talking, and it was fun to talk in Arabic; he was really sweet. He was just a very; he had a kind of Arab sweetness about him. And I think I said something like at one point that I was studying for my doctorate; I’m here to study for my doctorate. He suddenly got very serious, and he was just kind of excited and he said, “You’re a doctor?” And he pulls up his sleeves, and because he works with all these dyes and things, he had like sores and tumors on his arm. He’s like, “Can you do anything about this?” I said, “No I’m not that kind of doctor.” Suddenly, he felt like s***. Like of the people that I’m telling this story to, it’s just, you know, like a meaningful story, is like, “Oh, well that’s depressing.” [0:06:24]

After dinner, this same person who I take it was the principle individual who was kind of threatened by it, because he asked it in an aggressive question. I said, “Well, you know, I’ll see you later.” Or something; I wasn’t going to see him again. And he said, “No, no, you won’t. That’s it.” Ah? Apart from being very obnoxious, you know, I didn’t know what to make of it. I didn’t know what to make of it for the rest of the dinner, he was very like – and I assumed, because I was a reentry student, because this, you know, more or less responsible position in the international arena, they would probably be leery of whether or not I was a flight risk. I think their previous year’s candidate had left after a year, so they didn’t want to go through the whole search, just to have somebody take off. [0:07:21]

But I remember thinking to myself, wow; did I disclose something that shouldn’t have disclosed? Did I say something was inappropriate that reflected a lack of commitment? You know, like whatever; I mean there’re a million things that are probably was and could have been that led this rather obnoxious character to kind of to this interjection.

But I remembered thinking at the moment and certainly afterwards, when they hired some 20-something woman, who I guess was less threatening, you know who they felt like they would have more control over or something. Or whose work they liked better. I remembered thinking, “God, I really just have no idea how to conform. I’m just saying the wrong thing. I’m saying things that show a lack of commitment, and maybe it’s true. [0:08:34]

And I guess I thought at that moment, as I was walking up here, because you know, I mean that’s sort of the topic at hand at the moment; anyway. So that was the one, just the take home from – oh, the (Aurora) (ph) that popped in my head at the last moment was, I never submitted for reimbursement from them. You know, I bought my ticket, and they’re supposed to pick up the tab, and I never wrote them for it. I’m not totally sure why, but that’s something that I often do when I feel very unresolved; I’ve done that a lot, probably have in priniciple, thousands of dollars coming to me that I just never submitted for reimbursement. [0:09:23]

Another interesting random association here, reminds me of a paper that I got accepted for this conference, and actually bought a ticket for, that I wasn’t going to be reimbursed for, but to a professional conference. I actually, potentially got a fairly interesting one. But I ended up not going to; I just called them, and I said, I can’t come. I’m not totally sure why.

THERAPIST: [Could it have something about the conflict] (ph)?

CLIENT: Well it was nothing, I mean, you know, it was like I was giving the version of my dissertation about let’s see, it would have been, yeah, just six months after I’d (inaudible at 0:10:10); just the summer after. (pause) (sigh) So yeah, so like on the one hand, thinking about this, we have – we’re sort of assembling little (inaudible at 0:10:31); you know, one was from the library; one was between us. And here’s the third thing yet; and this vignette -

THERAPIST: I have a question -

CLIENT: Yeah, sure.

THERAPIST: about the story, about the – I mean, I don’t sort of fully understand your reaction and feeling about what happened with the shoeshine guy, that -

CLIENT: Well -

THERAPIST: Yeah, go ahead.

CLIENT: I mean, I felt bad; I felt sad; I felt like I didn’t have what he needed. Moreover, I was responsible at some, you know, kind of microscopic level, for – I’m assuming that his occupation, it was an occupational hazard that he was engaged in. I’m guessing that the, you know, its regulation of shoeshine materials, and Switzerland is probably less stringent than in the U.S., if that, who knows? And you know, clearly, the fact that he was covered in ink, and dye and paint, was not (even) (ph) related to the fact that he was suffering these terrible skin eruptions. [0:11:44]

THERAPIST: Right, I followed that. But you said that it related to your feeling about the role of -

CLIENT: Well, just think about when you take this course, occupational course, this would be my ideological rationalization of my feeling, which was likely more complex, and maybe the ambivalence was more pronounced in my previous rendition of it. But you have responsibility to do something useful and productive with it. You know, it’s not, basically the lesson of the story for me is that you are privileged in a way that relatively few people are. I turned out, and it wasn’t privileged. (chuckle) [0:12:38]

If one takes this course, then one is privileged, and it’s potentially a very wonderful thing to do that can really lead to good in the world; you can’t just do it, and you know, live high on the hog, and go to conferences on your research project, and feel like, well you know, I’m doing my bit [at the price of] (ph) – I don’t know. I guess to me what it says was that there are things to do in the world, and there’s suffering, and there’s responsibility to, if you benefit from shoeshines, to in some way; whatever the way that you have chosen is, to do something that alleviates the suffering.

I don’t know, it’s a pretty unexceptionable point; maybe this person didn’t quite get it; maybe I didn’t express it in the way that I would have wanted to. Maybe this person was threatened, as what’s his name said. [0:13:50]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Whatever. I mean at this point, it’s not sweet 16; you know, it doesn’t matter. But yeah. I guess though, this story for me, in the context of our ongoing conversation here, give a little bit more specificity to the ambivalence. There’s a lot of texture there, that’s a bit abstract, in the telling of the other two moments; the two vignettes.

And I do feel very deeply ambivalent, but I also felt very ambivalent, I mean I guess the curiosity – the question in my mind is, to what extent this very laudable sentiment, I believe a very laudable sentiment, is true; and to what extent it’s something a little bit different, which it’s just a discomfort with, you know, the whole idea, being in an institution. [0:15:01]

THERAPIST: I follow it.

CLIENT: You know, is it just a rationalization? I think one of the things that I wondered, or doubted or have doubted, with some evidence at my disposal, I have to kind of – is whether this is really just a way of justifying to myself, the deep deep discomfort, or unfitness, or you know, maladaptation that I feel when confronting, imagining, conceiving, executing the process of being in an office; being in a job; being in a regular environment.

You know, there’s another moment that came into my mind in this connection, that’s completely different. But every – so -

THERAPIST: I want to talk about those moments.

CLIENT: Sure. [0:16:00]

THERAPIST: I think, (pause) I think in a way, they’re both moments of self-(ordinate) (ph) and betrayal again. But they -

CLIENT: You mean both the shoeshine, and the college and the interview?

THERAPIST: Yeah, right, sorry. I meant the shoeshine and the college, where, you know, (pause) probably why they’re pretty evident, right? (coughing) You felt or had a sense that this guy had these hopes that you could help him, and then you couldn’t, and that sort of related to your commitment, and sense of commitment that like, okay, yeah I’ve got to do something with this opportunity to (inaudible at 0:16:57) this people. And not, as you say, just sort of like live high on the hog and do my own thing until I get done.

But whether or not you work as an outback (particular) (ph) shoeshine guy, that there’s some sense of not turning and walking off on the society or whatever that’s -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean it’s opportunity. And I think similarly, when you’re at college, that you know, “What the f***, you were too good?” It’s like, “What the hell is that?” I mean I know in your sort of world of like academic hiring and promotion, that’s probably not the most unusual thing to ever happen at all. But still, like from another point of view, the total set-up, presumably, the idea is to go and do as good a job as you can, and be impressive as possible. (chuckle)

CLIENT: One would think. [0:18:06]

THERAPIST: (chuckle) When they’re nagging you for that, and then be dicks about it, that’s seems, you know, you don’t think of a (trailer) (ph) really quite on like a set-up or really unfair. So anyway, I’m just struck at the way that that is, and clearly, is in your mind in thinking about how patient – go ahead, you had thought of another moment.

CLIENT: Yeah, and another kind of thought, (matching) (ph) yours. Another moment – every night and every morning, I take Grayson around the apartment. And I pick him up, you know, preferably at 6:30 or 7, but more like 5:30-6. And, you know, sometimes it’s dark and sometimes it’s light. So if it’s dark, I turn on all the lights and I go through the apartment. I start on the street, and we say good morning to the things; good morning to all the things.

We go and we say good morning street, and good morning avenue, and good morning to the house across the street, [to the couch] (ph); all the things in the house; we go from to back. And at night, we do it over.

For me, this is a very, this feels very important in our (inaudible at 0:19:41), you know, there’s this one thing; one kind of structural complaint that is hammered home to me again, and again and again, it’s that routines are very difficult for me. And you know, I have a specific grievance that I’ve been working through at the cost of some effort over the last few years with my parents for not just like starting that sense of regularity.

So whatever, but God knows what the impact of something that happens to you when you’re five months old, but that’s the significance of it. And I remember like a couple of days ago, maybe Tuesday morning, picking Grayson up from the crib; being really really tired, as you know, it’s almost -

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:20:43).

CLIENT: Yeah exactly. And just like not feeling like doing it, and having this familiar feeling of the (key) (ph) intervening in a routine. It’s like, “Oh, f***, I’m just too tired to do this.” Again, shocking, right? But it was like the routine was exhausting.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, it’s not picking (threads), what is he now, 18 lb. organism out of the crib, and walking from one end of our apartment to the other.

THERAPIST: Once you’re up -

CLIENT: Once you’re up, it’s not like that would be much more taxing than whatever.

THERAPIST: But somehow, [overlapping conversation at 0:21:29]

CLIENT: But somehow, it was like – yeah. Yeah, and I guess at the moment – at the time, I made a connection to this sense of comfort or discomfort, actually in the event, with institution – institutional relationships that seems intriguing to me, that I wondered about.

There’s like this something that intervenes, that did not actually intervene at that moment, because in fact that I followed through, it wasn’t enough to – but you know, it’s been enough to, for example, interfere in my running regimen; it’s been an (inaudible at 0:22:17). So that was the kind of random associational thought that I had.

But the specific kind of thought that I had in relation to your comment was, you know, there was another kind of betrayal that I think when you described was I guess, in some ways, my betrayal of the shoeshine guy; I don’t know, it wasn’t like we had an agreement that I violated, but there was a kind of betrayal going in the other direction at that moment of, you know, the vocation that I’d chosen; I betrayed I guess both of us.

In other words, I’m pursuing a doctorate and I can’t doctor. (chuckle) You know, I’m pursuing a doctorate. And it may or may not be significant; remember what was going on, I was clothing myself. If you think of this quasi-biblical scene of going across; taking the ferry across the river, walking up the hill in nice shoes, and a pair of khakis, and getting a shoeshine, and discovering that my shoeshine is killing somebody. [0:23:45]

This vocation that I’m putting on, that I’m dressing myself in, I think, you know, is actually carcinogenic possibly.

THERAPIST: (chuckle)

CLIENT: It’s doubtless not of complete insignificance that two months later or so, I had a crisis, and I went home prematurely in the middle of my fellowship; back to San Diego. So I don’t know; I don’t know what to make of any of that. But that seems like a betrayal so to speak, that was probably equal, at least of equal significance in all of the junk that we’re talking about; the betrayal of my vocation, and my subsequent betrayal of my vocation.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: My vocation betraying me and me betraying my vocation. (pause) (sigh) [0:25:03]

THERAPIST: And we think of the shoeshine guy too, whose vocation (inaudible at 0:26:47) was killing him. (pause)

CLIENT: So my job application; (laughter)

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: Jennie and I had a fight; or rather, Jennie picked a fight on Tuesday. I said – she said, “Oh my parents and the house is a mess.” And I knew that it would take like an hour and a half to clean up. But, you know, and I responded and that was the text that came in. Whether or not you remembered, there was a text that came in when I was here, and I had to shut off my phone; that was Jennie, like this long, long text, and I could tell that she was getting stressed out.

So I wrote back and I said, “Listen, you know, I’m going to get a cup of coffee after I’m done.” I came back 45 minutes later, and there was traffic, one was a broken-down train. It was a broken-down train, but it wasn’t the train I was on, so I don’t know, it just actually delayed me. (inaudible at 0:28:19).

Anyway, so I got home and she just kind of jumped at my face. And it was all this and that, you know, “Ehhhhh.” And I said, “Wait a minute, is this about me looking for a job?” She said, “Yes.” (chuckle) She went off on that for a little while. I got mad, and that’s the point we stopped. I said, “Okay, this isn’t getting us anywhere.” Later that evening, she apologized, which was appropriate.

But I think I said to you in February or whenever, you know, weeks and weeks ago, if I don’t get on top of this, then all of this other stuff is going to be really difficult. And indeed, that has been the case. Indeed, somehow, despite my appreciation of this fact, I (chuckle) still – I still – I’m still no further. And this somehow, despite this interaction, which I get yet again, confirms, you know, what I knew to be the case, and it’s evident impact on my partner; my person I love who on one hand is mad, and on the other hand, is feeling very stressed out. I’m still no further. [0:29:50]

And I don’t understand, I mean I don’t understand that at some level, all of this is the apparatus; the interpretative apparatus. But I feel, it’s just weird; I feel as I describe it, and on the one hand, I wonder whether at this point, my saying this is weird, is not some kind of weird rationalization or way of fending off the, you know, just to say, “Oh, it’s inexplicable; it’s ineffable.” But, what? (chuckle)

Why like, when I leave here, what the hell is it? What is going on here? I can’t, I can’t, I can’t quite fathom it, and yet, on the other side of the coin, you know, everything we’ve been talking about for the last half hour is clearly wrapped up in it at some degree. And yet, I feel very tangled up. (coughing) [0:30:50]

I guess what I’m saying is, on the one hand, there are two contrary impulses that are occurring to me simultaneously, on the one hand, a feel a strong sense of certainty that, you know, this stuff that I’m relating is very important to what’s going on with this right down here. And on the other hand, I feel a strong sense of skepticism about whether it’s necessary to go into all of this, that and the other thing, rather than just simply to do it.

In other words, am I just using my faculty for narrative, which you know, is a blessing and a curse, and as we’ve discovered at length, to fend off something that I feel stressed out about doing. (pause) I almost feel (sigh) I had this impulse, or fantasy rather, and my fantasy is, I say, “Marshall, this is it; we’ve come as far as we can go. Thank you very much and good-bye.” And I go, and I do it and live happily ever after. [0:32:31]

The only way that the fantasy is, and this is a very classic fantasy for me, that the only possible way to get it done, is to close the door on something; to reject it; to say good-bye. And that somehow, I guess you know, conversely, or by implication, staying here and continuing to talk about it is at this point impeding my ability to actually take this step.

This is a very common construction for me. So you know, I’m not sure how seriously I’m proposing this, but it’s very clear in my mind.

THERAPIST: Right. (pause)

CLIENT: (sigh)

THERAPIST: Well, (pause) (inaudible at 0:34:19), from the (inaudible at 0:34:28) you came in with and what you’re saying now. (pause) Another (pause) this might not be all there, but part of the way there – but another way I can think about the stories that told before, because the [time we had been talking about them] (ph), is that like there’s impedance in a way.

Like this guy’s got this problem, and he in a way, like the very emotionally immediate for both of you puts it on you, and says, “Please, can you help me with this?” And of course you can’t, and there’s no way you could. I think, among the other things, you felt sort of an emotional level then was kind of impotent (ph) to help him. [0:35:53]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Like that’s why you felt that, because you know, even though rationally, you know that like of course you can’t have that, I mean on that level. But on some level, like you’re totally bad for this guy, and here he was like -

CLIENT: Well, (from) (ph) the response, I mean I’d just gotten a shoeshine.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (chuckle)

CLIENT: You know. That was certainly one of the things I felt was that. Great.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and then with the interview too, right?

CLIENT: Nothing I could do. I mean maybe I could have been [overlapping conversation at 0:36:30] Well, and God knows what [overlapping conversation at 0:36:34]. You know, I did my best and maybe I didn’t play it right, and maybe I should have answered in French, my terrible American accent, (chuckle) you know, whatever. Actually, maybe there was a better way to play the game, but it wasn’t like I just blew it. I didn’t blow off the talk; I gave him very good talk; I was engaged with people, and you know. So yeah. [0:37:05]

Impedance is a very strong and a specific metaphor. Is there a reason why, or do you not mean it metaphorically, you just mean it kind of scriptively?

THERAPIST: Well I’m not sure yet.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But the third thing is, in a way, it’s also what you’re describing doing to me; making me impotent; like if we talk about stuff, and you know, figure out the appropriate narratives and so forth, that actually gets in the way; it impedes you. So if I am helping you, somehow that’s getting in the way, and you need leave. [0:38:08]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: In order to be able to [that’s too] (ph) what you need to do.

CLIENT: So I did something that I regret there, and that I had completely, I mean you know, like all’s fair in here, and you’re big enough to take it. But just in a kind of interactive sense, you know, that was a hard thing to say to you.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And it completely did not occur to me, you know, that side of it completely did not occur to me. In other words, the impact of what I said on the other person in our relationship, did not occur to me at that moment. But yes, I guess that is an implication, that the very thing that you do, it’s like a recapitulation of the shoeshine guy; the very thing that you’re doing, if that formulation fantasy, as I think I called it, (chuckle) is correct, is actually, I mean impeding me. Although, I feel the need to protect (chuckle) you somehow. [0:39:40]

THERAPIST: That’s very interesting.

CLIENT: I mean, yeah. What I was saying was, that we had reached a point –was that we had reached a point where having explored all of these things in order to proceed to do the thing that we’re talking about, I have to leave, which is not the same thing as saying that intrinsically, by its very nature, our interaction’s impeding me.

And that seems highly significant, and is much I think, much more in line with how my fantasy was running. And with my general thinking about it. You know, at some point, it will be the case that we’ll get a point where if the narrative exploration, or the exploration of the narrative is not as productive as just haphazardal action, and where I feel competent to engage in that action, and I will say good-bye. [0:40:53]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But I do, yeah, I do feel a little bit and I do feel a little bit of, like my immediate reaction when said that, was remorse. I’m not sure about the metaphor still, but my immediate reaction was remorse; it was like, well, I didn’t really mean that way; I didn’t mean it as anything about you. I was just thinking of myself.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So what is about that that feels a sense important to you? [0:41:28]

THERAPIST: (pause) I’m really, I’m not sure like, something about the sort of (pause) I don’t know, protectiveness or remorse. (pause) Maybe it’s like the concern about hurting you or making me feel the way you so often and so unfortunately have felt. I don’t mean by that, that I think you’re trying to just selfishly be remorseful, I mean to say that like, that’s a feeling you know all too well, and are imagining I think in me in feeling – [0:42:55]

CLIENT: Well I told you, you know, you’re the third therapist, the me therapist. I think one of the aspects of our rapport is that I identify with you, and so maybe it’s just the flip side of the same thing, right? Maybe this is a way for me to feel protective of myself. I don’t know, I kind of associate –

THERAPIST: I guess. (pause)

CLIENT: A compassion for myself.

THERAPIST: (pause) I think like part of what’s difficult about this, is if my – oh shoot, we have to stop. (inaudible at 0:43:49) If we’re on to something in this hunch, you know, then we’re talking about a pretty split off, kind of like, I think probably like envy and aggression, in a sense that it’s been clear today, and often recently, that you’re happy to come in and talk, where there’s this nice rapport between us. [0:44:28]

There are ways like where you’re talking about these things; all the – and (pause) you know, I think if you also have this fantasy that you would have to leave in order to actually get done the stuff you’re here to get help to do, I suspect what would be driving that, is just kind of separate, not necessarily split off in the way you generally (explain) (ph) your interactions. Like envy of me doing my work, and having a vocation, and (pause) being angry about it. [0:45:32]

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thanks. You too.

CLIENT: I’ll see you soon.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (background noise)

END TRANSCRIPT