TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: (Sigh) So, it’s interesting; (inaudible at 0:00:37) Tomorrow and Tuesday, and I felt very articulate and specific, and she was not – (sigh) she was not comprehending, I don’t know, she professes not to make any sense of what I’m talking about. I don’t know whether it was a gambit or what. I think both of us are making an effort to, you know, to just kind of get through the conflict, but I feel very frustrated -

THERAPIST: You mean she (inaudible at 0:01:17).

CLIENT: (pause) I don’t really know; I have some ideas about why she’s being so stubborn, but I find it very frustrating. Last night, (sigh) I had a bit of a tantrum; I got angry at her, and I was having a very difficult time, by [contrast, I took to my exact words.] (ph) Ultimately, I apologized, I guess because I was so [very articulate] (ph) (laughter) (pause) (sigh)

It was interesting though, but I guess the experience of it was interesting in a sense that it was kind of free-floating anger, and it wasn’t provoked by anything in particular. In fact, back to, you know, your proposition with regard to the jealousy, it was provoked by her saying, “Well, you know, before we go to bed, I need read this article that I’m talking about, called [It Sucks Today, on the Canine] (ph) (inaudible at 0:02:53).”

And it occurred to me that, you know, some of the resentment that I feel is definitely a very close proximity toward something very much like – like envy; something that she refuses to be sensitive to, and in fact has been remarkably, if not deliberately at some level, insensitive to. (pause) [0:03:29]

So, I think that was probably at some level, what set me off, and that’s a problem, or at the very least, it’s interesting, but it’s also a problem. I don’t like it, you know, I think that there are enough substantive issues that we need to hash through without having our interaction complicated by such outbursts.

I do also think at some level, that our conversations are productive of such outbursts, in a sense that, you know, if I’m working through something, Jennie is the most likely person for me to try it out on. And (sigh) that was another thing that came up in the conversation; tomorrow, she’s – this wasn’t a surprise; it wasn’t the first time. But she’s very negative about our sessions and their, you know, potential for having a productive impact. And this doubt, yes -

THERAPIST: Jennie is very negative [overlapping conversation at 0:04:49]

CLIENT: Yeah, basically unsupportive of this, feeling like it’s not very useful. And in general, you know, has been taking a line that she takes it herself, almost invariably to interment, which is just something that’s impeding, either it’s completely unfixable or you have to suck it up.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: You know, and when she’s being more reflective or something like that. But right now, the battle lines are drawing a little bit. It’s not so bleak as all that, I mean, I think we’re managing to navigate in a larger sense. But it’s very much like me, to feel the need to mitigate by saying that. [0:05:42] But I do think that that negativity and that lack of supportiveness is probably something to keep in mind. I’m not sure what it means; either for our interaction, or for – I’m not sure how it affects our interaction on the one hand, and I’m not sure how much that external impediment is something that we need to be sensitive to. But there it is, and that came out very clearly.

It also came up very clearly that I had – I was completely incompetent to kind of summarize where I think we had gotten; just very concisely. I feel apparently some – maybe just anticipating that she’s of certain risk in this (experiment) (ph). But I had a hard time (particularly) (ph). (pause) [0:06:45]

THERAPIST: I thought, are you asking me?

CLIENT: No, I was just reflecting on a couple of things that have happened [overlapping conversation at 0:07:13]

THERAPIST: No, that’s fine, I just wasn’t sure -

CLIENT: Oh, am I asking you what you think the significance of Jennie being -

THERAPIST: No, no, to summarize where we’ve gotten.

CLIENT: Oh, am I asking you to summarize where we’ve gotten? No, I don’t think so. I mean think I can (preventing) (ph) talking about it, which just interestingly, you know, in the moment while I was really very articulate about what I was angry about, I found it much more difficult, so to speak, to remember what our conversations would look like. I felt disconnected in a way that I sometimes do. (pause)

I mean, and I remember having a fleeting thought; you know, maybe tomorrow I can talk to Marshall and tell her what we’re up to. (laughter) Which I think is direct analogue of the moments when I’d ask you to summarize what we’re up to. [0:08:24]

THERAPIST: (chuckle) I got you. All right. (pause)

CLIENT: Sorry, these thoughts are just sort of piling on. One of the interesting things I guess, about the way that structurally, it is formulated in that setting, is that whereas, at least at one moment in the last couple of weeks, I had great (pause) I have felt significant caution about calling our interactions work. They’re, you know, in this other setting, it’s kind of, (chuckle) you know, since September, I haven’t been (chuckle) doing much other work; I’ve been taking care of Grayson. So to the extent that I have an independent existence outside the household, there is an investment in our conversations that there, I’m very eager and eager to claim. Whereas in our – at least one of our previous conversations, I felt very shy of claiming it in the usual and familiar way. [0:09:59]

THERAPIST: Sorry, I’m losing you.

CLIENT: So, I remember a couple of weeks ago, you know, I said you had called our – spoken of our work together.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I had felt very kind of queasy about that, for reasons that might just be an advergence of psycho babble, but probably I thought had at least genealogical relationship to the infamous overheard conversation around some stairs.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: In this setting where, you know, where Jennie had gone, it was not really for mediation, but for help, you know, in trying to figure out how to relate to each other better. But it was very clear to me that I was quite invested in claiming exactly the same interaction as significant work that I was doing, and felt quite upset and hurt to hear Jennie be so negative and dismissive of it. [0:11:06]

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And yet, I was disconnected enough that I couldn’t describe it very well. In a way that she’d remarked on several times was quite prominent when I would talk about work that I was doing in Egypt.

THERAPIST: That you had a -

CLIENT: I had a hard time formulating, you know, telling people [a bit those kind of things on boys,] (ph) and it felt like the experience of it felt similar somehow in that setting to trying to find it, being invested in it in some very strong and significant way; trying to find it and not being about to find it, and not being able to – you know, when something is connected to it, I’m very fluent and articulate. And when I’m not connected to it, you know, potentially, it can go in one or two directions; either I can become extremely verbose and kind of involuted in my description, or I just can’t call the words to mind. [0:12:16]

And it seems to me in reflecting on that particular moment in our exchange with tomorrow, that the energy, or cognition or what have you is similar; that seemed interesting. It’s like work, but not work, or I’m not doing it well, or isn’t appropriate, or you know, there’s another will, or desire that diverts me. I don’t know; undermines my connection to it. But the bottom line is that I’m not sufficiently connected to it to have a kind of cognitive picture of it. (pause)

THERAPIST: I guess I’m (startled) (ph) by it being like under attack. [0:13:41]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: And wondering if that has something to do with the difficulty.

CLIENT: Possibly. You would think, you know, if it’s not reliable, if I don’t secure in it, I don’t know. But that does seem common to some degree. (pause) [0:14:07]

I’m sorry, [overlapping conversation at 0:15:12]. One thinking into my head, I think progressively over the last couple of days, is that it was very clear in my mind as I was walk/running over here, and it’s apropos of nothing in particular, I guess at some level, but on the other hand, it’s what we’ve been talking about for the last two weeks.

I had a very clear formulation of why I might be so reluctant to look for work; like the precise mechanism leading from anger at Jennie to reluctance to look for work. As unsightly as that might be, given our family situation, you know, I mean at some level I feel anguished, and ashamed, and it’s terrible that I’m so without executive function that I cannot frame this off. But I know, I feel even in thinking about it myself, I feel the need not to legitimate it, but I think is about as close as I’ve come to kind of understanding it, with that preamble. [0:16:34]

I don’t – I feel as if she was so offensive and dismissive in the way that she presented these things, that if I were to say, “Okay fine.” I would ratify this in our relationship. It would be a precedent; it would involve continuous acceptance of a really terrible way of interacting. And I just, I find myself unwilling to say, “Okay, well you’re right.” I feel as if she would, you know, feel – take a sense of again, legitimation from it. I feel like we’re in a crisis of legitimacy, and the precedent for our relationship would just be devastating. [0:17:29]

That is the intuition, as a rationalization I guess, is probably more precise of the intuition that seems to be underlying my difficulty. Now the next question becomes, why it was difficult for me before this particular conflict erupted. You know, this dynamic of me not looking for a job has been operative for most of our relationship, and then before I was with Jennie I still had exactly the same problem.

So there’s something far more complex there, and -

THERAPIST: Well, I’m not so sure, actually.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean, in the (inaudible at 0:18:24) we talked about when you’ve been at work, it’s I think pretty similar, where you fail like to work while you’re being treated the way that you are, I imagine would sort of similarly gratify -

CLIENT: Perhaps; perhaps.

THERAPIST: or legitimate the bad treatment, by the (invisual) (ph) institution -

CLIENT: So the complexity, I mean that’s, you know, a rationalization of something that historically at least, I’ve had a hard time getting in touch with, and I think with the help of our psychotherapy here, I’m getting better at it, or at least it’s getting – the lag time is getting shorter. [0:19:18]

But one complexity or uncertainty; perennial uncertainty, is whether in fact this analysis is true; whether I’m actually good at evaluating a relationship in which I’m being devalued and disrespected. Or whether this, you know, I mean I think the way that I would translate Jennie’s incomprehension, if I were Jennie, is to say, “Well, of course I’m not disrespecting you, and I’m not devaluing you, and I don’t know where you’re getting that from.” I think that’s the point of incomprehension.

You know, so there’s this premise on my part that she’s really being disrespectful, and dismissive, and there’s this premise on her part that that is not the case at all. And I would hazard to guess that this dynamic, with necessary adjustments being made, is probably not uncommon in instances where this obstruction of the will is – it’s in prominent in my life. [0:20:34]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you’re being terribly insulted.

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, so that’s always like the problem that I have, and acting on it, or in pursuing it, or evaluating it, is that I never know whether I’m being paranoid, then with our new vocabulary, whether I’m feeling disconnected, or whether there really is kind of dismissive core to the relationship; a disrespectful core to the relationship.

THERAPIST: And that is partly because -

CLIENT: So sensitized to it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You feel so strongly disrespected, that that becomes, you know strongly being disrespected. And so, strong word, but like kind of mortally so.

CLIENT: To death, or what sense mortally so? (pause) Or morally so?

THERAPIST: I actually (inaudible at 0:21:45) I really had mortally so, like I don’t know why.

CLIENT: It’s a matter of life and death; like the stakes are [overlapping conversation at 0:21:53] absolute.

THERAPIST: Yeah and I mean I think (inaudible at 0:22:00), I actually think that might be not life and death, but -

CLIENT: The kind of basic superstructure of our relationship -

THERAPIST: Yeah, you felt like she knew this was your most vulnerable spot; she had been supportive of it before, and then it was like she zeroed in on it and really nailed you. I mean then it was a profound.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Kind of in assault and also kind of undermining – (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, for sure. [0:22:44]

THERAPIST: attack on you. And (pause) it must have – things like that must hit you at some level, that we don’t yet entirely know about and that’s the idea, that maybe the earlier piece, because this is where, you know, I mean, you’re able to talk to me, and you’re able to talk Tuesday to Elizabeth, very clearly about what had made you angry and why.

So that’s the part where – and yet you still weren’t able to kind of separate that from the actual work of getting the applications in. What I mean like – [0:23:55]

CLIENT: Wasn’t able to separate? I [don’t understand.] (ph)

THERAPIST: Like (pause) I have in mind the idea that if we had got to the bottom of this, and you were able to sort of talk about it, and think about it, and feel it, and all that, -

CLIENT: Then I should be able to say, “Okay, this sucks; this is a bad situation that has to be resolved. Yet this needs to happen, that needs to happen.” Or in a previous incarnation, you know, this is a bad situation; the work environment is not as I would like it to be. I’m not getting what I explicitly promised, but I have to do x, y and z.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [0:24:49]

CLIENT: I’m not completely frozen, and I’m not immobilized by this, like a sense of unfairness. And you’re saying that based on your experience, you would have thought that simply being able to articulate it, would involve somehow a capacity to engage in this higher level executive functioning.

Whereas it can, suggesting among other things perhaps, that’s what’s really the verbalization, because the verbalization is not as effective as it might be, you know, a model in which whatever this mechanism might be, it’s preverbal seems more persuasive relatively speaking. (pause) Preverbal in a developmental sense.

I don’t know if things function that way, I’m just trying to think aloud with you.

THERAPIST: I would say like has yet not articulated. It doesn’t necessarily have to be [overlapping conversation at 0:25:56]

CLIENT: So I don’t even know what matter of thing that you’re talking about really; just what the case study would illustrate.

THERAPIST: Sure. (pause) Let’s say there’s in addition to the insult, because of the insult, which we’re pretty clear about, some very strongly felt, very sort of primitive feeling of abandonment; I’m making this up – that was also implicated.

CLIENT: But haven’t we already explicitly established that this is the case? That this is part of the case? I think, I mean even our model of connectedness, you know, implies me abandoning you before you abandoning me. And you for quite a while, I think, were very keen on this particular element of the model. So, I don’t know, I’m a little suspicious. (laughter) It doesn’t seem like a completely random – [0:27:14]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it is not a completely random, but I guess I (pause)

CLIENT: But that wouldn’t be new, I mean that wouldn’t be something that we didn’t understand the ergo, and hadn’t discussed ergo, it could still be problematic.

THERAPIST: (pause) There certainly could be aspects of it that we have not yet understood. For example, in this instance, actually it occurred to me that the most recent instance of this is how she is about therapy, and then your not being able to talk about it.

I guess I imagine there’s a version of exactly this same thing, where you have said, this is some of the work I am doing, and have been doing over the last however many months. This matters to me; she is critical and I gather sort of hostile about it. And you – [0:28:20]

CLIENT: Anyway, yeah. Whatever she is, I’m quite (devalued) (ph).

THERAPIST: And I imagine you felt insulted, and certainly not like well supported in what you’re trying to do.

CLIENT: Correct.

THERAPIST: And then have trouble describing what we’ve been doing, and what’s involved. In a way, that’s sort of sidebar to what we were talking about a minute ago, in that it just occurred to me that like that’s actually the most recent example I think.

CLIENT: I don’t under – I mean abandonment in a sense of her not being supportive?

THERAPIST: I’m sorry, I’m mixing things up.

CLIENT: Yeah, I’m getting lost.

THERAPIST: Okay. There’s a modularly question, which I sort of was going to bring up this (chuckle) oh, hypothetical example.

CLIENT: (chuckle) Okay.

THERAPIST: Although, we can do that (inaudible at 0:29:19).

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And then, there’s a separate thing I’m bringing up, which is maybe already obvious to you; that in the example we keep referring back to as the most recent one, which has happened between you and Jennie was the one that you were describing to Elizabeth, that you were really angry about. Where you felt very betrayed, and how she was about you taking the time to write.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So I’m saying actually, that’s not the most recent example. (inaudible at 0:30:00) The most recent example is the one you’re telling me about on Tuesday, that happened in Elizabeth’s office.

CLIENT: Right. Okay, I got it. Yeah, well I mean you know, I brought it up, because I thought it would be good fodder for -

THERAPIST: Right, I’m just saying it had clearly; maybe it was just obvious to you, like how that is the exactly the same thing.

CLIENT: Yeah, totally.

THERAPIST: Where you know, she – you felt (open) (ph) and betrayed, and then you become inarticulate.

CLIENT: About the thing itself. Not inarticulate generically, you know, I didn’t have difficulty interacting or whatever. It was just that this thing suddenly became opaque.

THERAPIST: Right. In the same way that we assume that some of your difficulty getting applications done had to do with the betrayal and the insult.

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. And, you know, I mean getting the applications done is also something about describing work, and it involves precisely the same operation; it’s not just some generic function.

THERAPIST: That’s a really good point. It’s not – yeah, right; it’s not writing down your demographics.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean it’s not like just some sort of value free thing, it involves [overlapping conversation at 0:31:23] Exactly.

THERAPIST: In fact, lousy things happened at work.

CLIENT: That’s right. And you know, what is difficult for me about Jennie‘s stubbornness and obstreperousness this interaction; this conflict is among other things, that she’s very unsympathetic at this point, for reasons that I frankly understand. You know, they have to do with just being genuinely concerned about our finances.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Very unsympathetic to the difficulty that’s applied by making these applications. So what I was unable to describe to her in Tomorrow’s office, and had just sort of given up on trying to describe to her at home, is precisely what I would have hoped that she would be supportive of. (pause) [0:32:32]

So it’s like I can’t ask at some level, this, whatever this is, prevents me from asking for the thing that I want, explicitly. (pause)

THERAPIST: Being, you had trouble saying, “Hey, you know how hard this is for me. I’m doing everything I can think to do.”

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: “And I need two things.”

CLIENT: No, there is a kind of (recurtisin) (ph) here, I guess; I guess I’m observing, you know, in a sense that the process of trying to engage with Jennie to short-circuit the blockage that comes about on account of my anger, and my fear of abandonment, and whatever the modelary characteristics may be; that process is a prerequisite presumably, for her actually giving her support. [0:33:58]

In other words, being able to articulate that is necessary if, you know, I’m going to have a partner who knows what she’s supporting. And so if I can’t really describe to her the process, let alone what I’m trying to do to address it, so that it doesn’t seem just like some congenital defect, then, and I’m unable to do so, because of whatever is intervening, then I have a real problem. It’s a vicious cycle.

THERAPIST: Isn’t that a little like the applications themselves -

CLIENT: Yeah, as I say, it’s recursive; it exists at every level of the (practical) (ph). [0:34:45] (pause) I’m guessing that longstanding, you know, psychological things like this often take this form. That seems quite characteristic of something that is just a longstanding issue.

THERAPIST: Yeah, absolutely. But I guess I want to make sure the specificity I had in mind was clear; it probably was. But in case it wasn’t, in order to explain to Jennie what you want from her, you have to refer to all this, this sort of history of insult, and shame and difficulty. [0:35:58]

CLIENT: Well, probably that too, but I was thinking, in order to explain to Jennie this, I have to explain to her, you know, what actually is impeding me from doing the applications. Meaning both how I’m upset with her; I was pretty good at that actually, although she was not very good at listening to me.

But also what it is that I think is going on with the applications; what exactly the interference is; why it’s not so simple as saying, “Okay, we’ll sit down and do them.” Apparently. Now as we’ve discerned, there’s a component; an interpersonal component of this. And that’s the part about me being mad at Jennie I guess, or being afraid of Jennie abandoning me, or some interaction of the two.

There’s also the kind of, the behavioral component. So one of them is the relational component of it. The other is the behavioral component of it. I guess what I would’ve liked to say, is that we’re working on both of them, you know, and this is what the implications of the behavioral component are. This is what I’m asking for support with. And I have a hard time doing that, apparently, because I’m feeling disconnected from Jennie and feeling a fear of abandonment, and/or a sense of anger and so on. [0:37:35]

So, there’s just this sort of very complex tangle of vicious circles that are making it very difficult at this point, for me and us, as a couple in the household, to do what we are – a complete consensus needs to happen, which is why we need to have two incomes.

THERAPIST: Actually that’s only one of the things that needs to happen.

CLIENT: Yeah, well the other thing that needs to happen is that Jennie needs to, you know, she must; she must as far as I can see, behave with more integrity, in both her support of me, and in our interactions; needs to follow through. The same way that I need to follow through. Not in the same way, but you know, but both of us need to follow through.

You like every formulation, but the last formulation. [0:38:31]

THERAPIST: Yeah. The reason I don’t like the last formulation is because, there’s something I don’t like about equating your having trouble following through, and equating how she’s having trouble following through, because (pause) you’re the one who’s dealing, like who’s getting the short end of the stick, I think on both counts.

In other words, you’re feeling shitty for not doing the applications, and because you feel like she’s not being -

CLIENT: Not just not doing the applications, I’m feeling shitty for not having something to do in the world.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: No, that’s important. I mean it’s not, you know – (pause) But you’re saying that’s the end of the stick – of the wedge? You’re saying, first things first? [0:39:26]

THERAPIST: I guess that was what I had in mind, the most proximate thing, but maybe it isn’t. I mean maybe the other wound’s so large for you all the time, that (pause)

CLIENT: It is pretty large, I would think.

THERAPIST: I’m sure it does; I think you were rightly correcting me. Like I had it all in mind where you were pretty focused on the proximate thing of doing the task, and obviously that’s very important, but you’re absolutely right. (pause) It’s the (inaudible at 0:40:06) which, you know, is there in the water with you all the time.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And which I think you very rightly pointed out to me, and it’s part of what you’re having trouble pointing out to her, that she needs to be aware of as well.

CLIENT: She’s aware of it; she’s imminently aware of, she’s just not – she doesn’t care at this point. She says, you know, we have a financial crisis and you need to respond to it.

THERAPIST: Right. And you’re (inaudible at 0:40:42) having relational crisis, which is always a (inaudible at 0:40:47) problem for you.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Which you’re also trying very to resolve with her, but as you said, you know, that thing where you felt cast out or left out, and have to sort of try to step back in, and put yourself out there, is exactly what you have trouble doing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So difficult; it feels so risky. And I think you’re also probably resentful of having to do it.

CLIENT: Of having to do what specifically?

THERAPIST: Feeling so maltreated and so insulted, go back, and like say, “Here’s what I Need.” Or, “I want something from you.” Or, “Will you do this for me?” I mean I’m seeing that in coming from a more childlike kind of mentality. In other words, -

CLIENT: I mean, you know, I’m not insulted by it, I’m just trying to understand.

THERAPIST: But I think that’s both with the job stuff and with Jennie, what makes it difficult for you to speak up. [0:41:55]

CLIENT: Like I shouldn’t have to describe this to you. Why -

THERAPIST: “What the f***?”

CLIENT: Isn’t this obvious? Why do I have to sing for my supper?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: We have to stop now.

CLIENT: Yeah. So Tuesday.

THERAPIST: [overlapping conversation at 0:42:18] and Tuesday. I’m going to be out a week from Tuesday.

CLIENT: A week from Tuesday. Okay. All right. Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. You too now.

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