TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
Male participant 1: And if it wasn’t, then I need to (inaudible speaking) [00:00:04]
Female participant 1: I will go back and look. I don’t remember, it looks like what I had a record of, was the first payment from you. I’ll double check; I don’t think I have a record of payments from them.
Male participant 2: Yea, do double check.
Male participant 2: If you didn’t, I mean because I, don’t have records of it either.
Female participant 1: They didn’t pay you either.
Male participant 2: Well they certainly didn’t pay me.
Female participant 1: Yeah.
Male participant 2: You know, if I paid you then they need to reimburse me,
Female participant 1: Right.
Male participant 2: And if I didn’t pay you, then they definitely need to reimburse you, but there’s no ambiguity, they need to pay me.
Female participant 1: Right, no I think they need to pay, they need to get with you.
Male participant 1: Ok.
Female participant 1: I think that’s right, but I’ll double check it.
Male participant 2: Its all too good.
Male participant 2: But do double check it. Yea, and make sure that they didn’t, I mean I guess they will tell me.
Male participant 1: Pretty promptly (laughing) if they did pay you.
Female participant 1: Yeah!
Male participant 2: But, but that was my impression from looking at the email. (ph)
Female participant 1: Ok, ok…Was, was it that they had not?
Male participant 2: Was that they had not.
Female participant 2: Yeah.
(overlapping voices, very low) 00:01:16
Female participant 1: So, congratulations.
Male participant 1: Yeah, well thank you, Thank you, can I.
(cross talking) 00:01:25
Male participant 1: What’s that?
Female participant 1: I hope you will, in fact.
Male participant 1: Oh yes, yes, you know it’s coming then.
pause, (inaudible background noise) 00:01:41
long pause with background talking, man clears his breath 00:01:39
Male participant 1: There.
Female participant 1: Uh, oh that’s great.
(Inaudible voices, low) 00:02:07
Male participant 1: So, clears throat, Yeah.
Female participant 1: Bet you had quite a week?
Male participant 1: Wild! Yeah its been very nice, I mean everyone, everybody, who comes over says were quite calm and I don’t know if that’s just kind of (says a word while laughing) female laughs, but um.
Female participant 1: He’s a good kid.
Male participant 1: I don’t know, I, I feel very (deep breath) I feel very at ease, in, in this room, it feels good, it feels nice.
Female participant 1: That’s great.
Male participant 1: (inaudible words) [00:02:57], it’s funny, saying that about somebody who has been around this world anyway for (inaudible words) [00:03:06] (sigh) I guess I am finding it a little bit hard to A. kind of resume our conversation, it feels so discrepant from experience, for the last couple of weeks. In part because, I mean I think the frame work for the things that we are discussing are completely different so, and sigh..
Female participant 1: I would, I mean, I’m happy to talk about that if that’s what’s on your mind..
Male participant 1: No!, it’s not what’s on my mind, I just I don’t know what’s on my mind.
Female participant 1: Yeah, ok.
(coughing, long pause) [00:04:16]
Male participant 1: I mean, I guess, I guess what’s, what’s remarkable to me, other than just this sort of miraculous phenomena, all right, lets, lets, I am struggling for words, (laughing) uncharacteristically. (sigh) It is miraculous, it’s amazing, it’s amazing, that living things can reproduce; it’s amazing that people can reproduce.
Female participant 1: Yeah, yep.
Male participant 1: Um, it’s amazing, watching you know the glimmerings of conscientiousness and it develops so fast you know, I mean (sigh).
Male participant 2: So he’s a “thumb” sucker, like one of the staff that.
(cross talking)
Male participant 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, love that.
Male participant 1: In the birth announcement, and what’s amazing is that, I guess it’s the second ultrasound that we had, which was at 12-weeks, he’s sucking his thumb.
Male participant 2: uh huh.
Male participant 1: So you know that gives some kind of continuity in some essential essence of this being that is consistent you know from this incredibly early developmental stage and, and I just see these little threads you know, these works or these webs becoming more and more elaborate in their contributions to the pattern, just even for (inaudible word) 00:06:18 days. It’s really remarkable, it’s really amazing to watch this, the consistencies even, the expressions. There’s the pouty (sp?) face, (laughing, inaudible) 00:06:31 there are all of these things that, I think God has a running joke when we see him dreaming you know. We’ll watch him while he is sleeping and it’s so, how can you have a nightmare when you’re nine days old, like what content could you possibly have?
Male participant 2: Right, Right.
Male participant 1: And the joke is, this one time, (laughing) (ph) change my diaper, (laughing).
(cross talking) [00:07:03]
Male participant 1: Not every event is singular, and yet, you know, slowly somehow they accumulate and they create a pattern you know when they are in their good dream, or whatever the recollection is. Its just the seeing those experiences accumulate and create a personality, some of which they say you know existed from gestational week 12. It’s quite the amazing, amazing is was something, what were we talking about yesterday (inaudible speaking, fades out) [00:07:41]
Male participant 1: Oh! So, you know, like all primates. One of the really wonderful things about yesterday, is like (inaudible)[00:08:10] or something neat, was just. And I’m not sure whether I just didn’t notice it before or if this was new, or if I am carrying him in a different way. I’ve had him on my tummy in the morning, still sleeping and you know he had me like primate infants do, grabbing me by the hands and then I fed him and I burped him and I had him kind of on my back and he fell asleep with you know, again, with his hands kind of grasping me at this incredibly sweet, sweet and you know just sort of joyful feeling to have this little being grasping you. And I think oh, you know it’s amazing, I mean how clearly there’s a very cut (stumbles, changes line of thought) She’s a philosopher, she works on evolution among other things. So, you know clearly, this is an evolutionary phenomenon. I mean, you know he’s nine days old, its not like he’s learned you know, that there was good positive feedback if you grasp your parents in this way. And it evokes in the parent all of these complex emotions which likewise, you know, clearly have some kind of evolutionary basis. And I was just kind of marveling at the fact that, I mean you can imagine how a foot might evolve, or an eye might even evolve through various kinds of, [00:09:54]
Male participant 2: Selection pressures? (ph)
Male participant 1: Of selection pressures but it’s so much more difficult to imagine this complex behavior and you know, social behavior. These interactions developing to the same process, it really, you really begin to get an amazing insight into how complicated and beautiful and just sort of remarkable these process’ are. So,
Male participant 2: I don’t know if I ever mentioned, but my master’s thesis and dissertation were on early mother/infant interactions.
Male participant 1: No you didn’t.
Male participant 2: Oh ok, like in the, mostly in the first six months I can pretty much (inaudible, too low) [00:10:42]
Male participant 1: So you read some of this literature?
Male participant 2: Oh yea, I read some of this literature and I like was involved in studies. (ph)
Male participant 1: No, No, I mean you read, you may have read some of the, you know, the literature on evolutionary biology, I don’t know if that’s part of that but.
Male participant 2: Well, yeah.
Male participant 1: Anyway it was just kind of remarkable. Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: It was really like, I don’t know, yesterday it was just kind of a wonderful (sigh) I am not finding the words for it. It was, quite beautiful. Typically, (laughing).
Male participant 1: Typically I was so excited by this that laughing. I was really enjoying you know this kind of carrying him over my shoulder, you know and having him latch onto me and I was very impressed with how effective it was at burping him. And I did it a little too much and he vomited all over my back (laughing) There was just a little too much pressure, [00:11:49]
Both men laughing
Male participant 1: To be able to keep this warm feeling, after a (inaudible)[00:11:59] explosion, and a vomit on your back, really speaks to the efficacy of this particular (both men laughing, inaudible) [00:12:05]
Male participant 1: All objective feedback would suggest that (laughing)
Male participant 1: Anyway, so, (inaudible) accounts, he is a good sleeper so far, relatively speaking. You know so, he wakes up to feed at probably two shifts a piece during the night. So I am not very well slept right now, but he is pretty good about (inaudible, cross talking low) (00:12:43]
Male participant 2: He takes the formula? (ph)
Male participant 1: Yeah, well he, Stephanie has, as it turns out, pretty sensitive breasts and she had some laceration of the nipple, so getting her back to nursing, she’s probably (inaudible) but, I think that getting her back is (inaudible) [00:13:04]
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: A challenge and her milk hasn’t quite come in all the way yet. So, hopefully we will be transitioning from formula over the next couple of weeks, but right now it’s mostly formula.
Male participant 2: says, yeah repeatedly through the above sentence.
Male participant 1: Which is a real racquet. A real racquet yeah. I mean I suppose it’s true, that you know, when you find the formula, one of the three brands of formula they have in the formulary so to speak at the hospital, when you find the one that works, you should probably stick with it. But what that means effectively, is that the marketing are, that the, the hospital is the marketing arm for the formula company. [00:13:58]
Male participant 1: Anyway, so its been very sweet and we had (laughing) not entirely voluntarily, at least at first we had Stephanie’s (female name, inaudible) [00:14:09] mother and step father in town for until yesterday. So they arrived actually during Stephanie’s (sp?) delivery.
Male participant 2: Oh wow. Male participant 1: I had to kind of run interference there, and they stayed till (voice fades out) [00:14:30]
Male participant 2: How was delivery?
Male participant 1: It was good. She had an epidural. So, the labor was I think, let’s see 12, about 16 hours and (inaudible) [00:14:53]. But the really painful part of the contractions, before the end phase, lasted only an hour before she was dilated enough that she could get the epidural.
Male participant 1: And, I mean it was very. It went well. It went well. You know, she, after she was fully dilated it was about 45 minutes before he came out. There was a little bit of tearing but I don’t think anything unusual.
Male participant 1: It’s a traumatic event, becoming a mother but she’s been healing. So it was very sweet, it was amazing. I mean he’s an incredibly healthy boy, an incredibly healthy boy. He’s really, everything went well. His birth weight was, he was the heaviest baby of my immediate family at least. And he’s gained it all back and then some so, the pediatrician (inaudible, too low) [00:16:14]
Male participant 1: He’s really cute.
Male participant 2: (chuckling)
Male participant 1: I feel very passionate about that.
Male participant 2: What’s that?
Male participant 1: Oh wow you know, they all are but um yeah. (more chuckling)
Male participant 1: He looks exactly like me as an infant. I mean exactly, it’s completely uncanny.
Male participant 2: Oh yeah (in the background)
Male participant 1: I had a sense that this was true and I went back to get a change and other stuff, a couple of other things you know the next morning.
Male participant 2: uh huh.
Male participant 1: And ah, just grabbed a bunch of pictures and started looking through them. Well that’s scary yeah, you know.
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: (chuckling) you know.
Male participant 1: So I guess, yeah, I mean there’s, reproducing can be a slightly narcissistic process which is stimulated by this, but when people who come over it’s actually Gall (sp?) who says “Why don’t you get out your baby pictures and show them, how much he looks like you. (both men laughing)
Male participant 1: So something good about our relationship.
Male participant 1: Yeah, no it’s really quite remarkable.
Male participant 1: So let’s see. So my family is coming. My sister and my mother are coming on the 16th, and we’re having a naming ceremony. We’re not circumcising him because we have a rabbi who apparently has a service for people who don’t circumcise (laughing) seems like a funny thing for a rabbi to do, but he’s a close friend of ours. [00:18:11]
Male participant 1: But it was very, it was very sweet, satisfying, comforting, to just have a clear goal. And just to feel so secure and kind of at ease and that I feel very at ease. Yea, I feel completely incompetent at changing diapers actually, they often leak, but I am getting better. I’m apparently incompetent at burping, but (laughing) I’m getting better. I get vomited on (laughing) it’s not a bad vomit (Male participant 2: agreeing in background).
Male participant 1: I feel, I you know whatever, I’ve checked in the middle of it to make sure he’s breathing a couple of times. (laughing)
Male participant 2: Sure.
Male participant 1: But I feel at ease, at ease in the role I don’t feel insecure. And that’s interesting for me, because (brief pause) the interaction with Stephanie’s family was likewise, very easy. I think it was you know, I was excited of course and I suppose I am proximally responsible for you know, for this thing that’s very, very, joyous for them. So, that greases the relationship, but they like me.
Male participant 2: (chuckling) (inaudible response) [00:19:59]
Male participant 1: Yeah, I mean, it’s not that they like me, that’s not really the issue. Although that’s also true, I mean you know, there are
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: Personally we all get along grandly. It’s a nice relationship. With all of them really; with her father in United Arab Emirates and there’s a step brother and her brother and also mother. Her step father’s son and his wife and grandson came to visit yesterday. And you know, again, it was just a very easy interaction. And I think, I don’t know, I guess the thought that has been in my mind has been that I feel some relief at my role suddenly being unambiguous. I have an identity, that somehow comes as a great relief to me as if you know, as much of what I’ve been struggling with or troubled by in recent years has been the lack of this. So, you know I find that the person that I am or the personality that comes to the surface when I do feel that sense of ease, is you know is pleasant (chuckling). Its like, people enjoy it, and I enjoy myself and it’s very dramatically different I guess, from the way that I feel and probably interact and present myself when that’s not the case. [00:22:15]
Male participant 1: A sense of security would be this. You know that feels, that shift, or transition of something that feels very profound sometimes. And I wonder just sort of in the domain of (inaudible) [00:22:35] you know how it would be in these others (inaudible) [00:22:42] if you know somehow this core experience you know proceeded by attempt of fumbling and ultimately unsuccessful attempt to kind of create a place of work for myself; which, is kind of the way I understand the last couple of years.
Female participant 1: Right. And I wonder about is, (clears throat) whether there are, do you think might be hard to grease (sp?) apart? One is as you say, having a role and the other involves some things about the nature of the role, in particular that you know, its all about kind of lumping generative (sp?).
Male participant 1: Oh, I see what you mean.
Male participant 2: You know, together, the three of you together.
Male participant 1: Ah, living genuinely together.
Male participant 2: Endeavor, you know. And I guess I bring that up because we know in the worst side, it’s often when that feels threatened or when it feels more in competitive or more self-interested.
Male participant 1: Yeah.
Male participant 2: That you feel more worried and become more troubled. So I guess this thing that I am wondering about is how much (inaudible) [00:24:30] or saying how much is.
Male participant 1: So here’s what’s bizarre to me. You know, we’re transitioning in that direction here. Why the f*** did I end up at Yale? If I could think of, like, you know, lack of self-knowledge would be one possible explanation. But you know, if somebody were to have that self-knowledge and were to understand that you know, and that they really function best in an environment that’s not you know, not, hypercompetitive where you know these relationships are called into question constantly by peoples jockeying for position. If that were to be an observation that they would make, and at some level, I definitely do that, I mean like I probably conceptualize, well you know, I can be alone vs. blah, blah, but it amounts to the same thing. Why the f*** would they gravitate towards, why would this person, why would such a person gravitate towards an environment where clearly these needs are not going to be well served, and this kind of way of functioning, or this optimal space reflection, would not be available. I don’t understand that.
Male participant 1: I mean I guess I gravitated toward a group of people that seemed to me to have that in a way that turned out to be fairly naïve.
Male participant 2: (clears throat) you mean (inaudible) partner. [00:26:07]
Male participant 1: Yeah! I mean, you know, (chuckles) It’s not true (chuckles).
Male participant 2: Right, right.
Male participant 1: You know, there’s kind of a, I would say, There’s a kind of an instrumentality toward the way that they exhibit and you know and (pause) talk about this impulse. This kind of nurturing impulse that you know, you can momentarily be bamboozled into imagining, would create that kind of environment but you know it’s not very substantive. So, I don’t know, I find that weird. Do I (inaudible) [00:26:57] long before I began working with this group of people, I headed toward Yale. Maybe it was just naïve? Maybe it was just you know, a lack of experience and foresight. But it seems very weird; it seems like the absolute place for me (chuckles) in retrospect. I don’t know why I do that? And the fact that I did and persisted so long and so you know against such contrary evidence and what have you, in the face of that it seems kind of remarkable in retrospect. There’s something going on there. That is significant.
Male participant 1: I love this. I mean you know, like everybody in a big family is you know uneven (sp?), you know, they enjoy this role. Whatever, I mean, alright, maybe some people enjoy it more than others but for me it’s just like essential; and when I don’t have it, I kind of flip out.
(long pause) [00:28:09]
Male participant 1: I guess I would never have known though. My family is such a fuck-up (ph), in some ways. In other ways, it’s really beautiful. I mean my relationship with my sister is so sweet. She’s such a sweet, substantive you know, good person. My mother, you know, (inaudible) [00:28:50] limitations is the question about that. But she’s a very, very warm you know, genuine good person, so. But as a family we really didn’t function very well, so I guess you know, I would while these interactions on an individual basis, you know, were good you know, how the function as a unit, that was one of the things you said a moment ago that really struck me. It’s the three of us; you know it’s like this system. You know as a system we didn’t work very well, as you know a cluster of individual relationships in many ways we work wonderfully. You know, my father and I you know, there was a very genuine and mutually fulfilling I think kind of interaction, yet as a system, it was just kind of a disaster. [00:29:56]
Male participant 1: I’m fumbling around a little bit. I feel the threads kind of escaping me, but (sigh) it feels strange to me. It feels strange to me. Where I ended up, given the accurate observation that you make about how much satisfaction and courage isn’t quite the right word but ease I take from a really supportive, mutually fulfilling, functional family.
Male participant 2: First thing that occurs to me is that (inaudible) [00:30:53] in some ways that does sort of recapitulate your family growing up.
Male participant 1: Yeah! Well, no doubt.
Male participant 2: Where you know, I guess in most cases the individual actors aren’t bad. And there is a lot you know, there’s sort of the apparent and a timed instrumental use of a more kind of collective (inaudible) [00:31:19]
Male participant 1: Yeah.
Male participant 2: But, then when you sort of scratch the surface a little more below into the conversion. That’s not an answer for why you want more of that.
Male participant 1: Yeah! (laughing)
Male participant 2: But it’s that sort of uncanny thing people do.
Male participant 1: Yeah! And whatever, recapitulation is not something that has particularly escaped me but yeah, it’s just weird, it’s just weird, it’s like I don’t know. Why do people do the things they do here? (laughing) probably not useful to answer that question in the abstract. (laughing) maybe if you want to write it in the paper.
Male participant 1: Yeah, Yeah, I guess I haven’t gotten beyond just kind of being a bit gob smacked by it.
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 2: Well, what you often seem to be trying to do or hoping will happen is that the system will work as advertised I think.
Male participant 1: Or that I can MAKE it work by it damn it.
Male participant 1: Hold it to the advertising.
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: And once you have discovered that the patent remedy does not work as promised. You I don’t know, you go to the FDA and say, “Paul, I want to sue these people because it doesn’t work as promised” but rather make them make it work. (laughing)
(laughing in background)
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 2: Yeah, I ‘m really hurting, I need the medicine to really work damn it.
Male participant 1: No, I have gone to great lengths at great personal cost (laughing) in this quixotic journey. So that is kind of interesting I guess.
Male participant 1: But maybe a more you know, that’s interesting in a kind of abstract way. You know if I were novelizing it all, then that would be a very interesting and important question. At this point I guess what is kind of in the back of my mind right now, you know, in part I guess because (laughing) the cost of formula. You know, how well breast feeding goes. You know, like so how could one do it differently, how could one perceive from this insight and this sense of satisfaction and ease and you know, kind of use that as a basis for developing this other domain.
Male participant 1: You know, I am aware. I am struck, convinced, I suspect, at some level there’s a little Shangri la going on, in so far as, you know it depends this ease and comfort and you know, kind of lack of trouble and stress and strain, has come about because I just said “Ok, f*** this other shit” A. It hasn’t come to any good and B. It’s troubling to me. I’m just going to embody for the moment and immerse myself in this other role. A role where my skills are unquestionable (laughing) and my you know, kind of identity is very, very, well established. [00:35:36]
Male participant 1: And not worry about this other stuff for the moment. But at some point, I think we have to worry about it.
Male participant 2: There’s stuff there too you know. It’s so funny, I think I know what you mean and it’s been very clear over the last couple of months John, that that’s how you felt. I guess the thing that strikes me is this is absolutely I think that when you talk about your identity being clear and your sort of inhabiting it very comfortably, and you’re not, absolutely, that is how it has been how you’ve talked about it. It’s not often how new parents talk (everyone laughs, loud laughing).
Male participant 1: That’s very interesting! (laughing)
Male participant 2: Oh thank God Morris, you just got rid of the (sp?) where I’m comfortable you, and I am at ease, and (inaudible) [00:36:28] and your parents are like AH! What the hell! Like my kid? What you talking about? (laughing in background) What am I supposed to do? Where’s the receipt? Like AH! You know, I mean not the people that love their new babies.
Male participant 1: Sure, sure, sure, sure. Yea I mean that people have remarked like 3 or 4 people have remarked upon coming into our home, in the last 90 days.
Male participant 2: God, you guys are so calm!
Male participant 1: Uh huh. You know it feels so relaxed.
Male participant 2: Yeah. It all sounds familiar the way you talk about it. Like you know, to an uncanny extent.
Male participant 1: Like I have done it before.
Male participant 2: Yeah. (inaudible) [00:37:15]
(cross talking and loud laughing)
Male participant 2: Got to work on the diapers, but yeah, but in terms of.
Male participant 1: That’s interesting. I suspect that also more or less our last thought for the day.
Male participant 2: Give it a couple of minutes.
Male participant 1: We have a couple of minutes, alright.
Male participant 1: So I don’t know what to make of that. And I don’t know why, I mean for me it’s doubly weird that it should be the case just because my parents were so f***ing out there.
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: In fact, I don’t know any parents who are not there. Like I certainly don’t have
Male participant 2: you mean from growing up?
Male participant 1: Well I certainly don’t have like an image in my mind of the parents who I would like to emulate.
Male participant 2: Right.
Male participant 1: Nada. Maybe some people do.
Male participant 2: Right. That I think is not unusual. I mean people have a friend or an older sibling or somebody around.
Male participant 1: What about my sister? My sister’s very apparent.
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: But I don’t like, I’m not conscientiously aware of emulating her.
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: I mean I don’t know, But your right, and that is curious and I don’t know and there is definitely something there. Why should that be? Why should it be that I, uncanny was the way that you put it a moment ago, just kind of interesting? Post-Halloween and interesting, yeah an interesting way on conceptualizing. You know uncanny, you’re psychoanalytically oriented, so I imagine that wasn’t completely accidental that you would put it in those terms or maybe it was, I don’t know.
Male participant 2: Right.
Male participant 1:It wasn’t accidental. I usually think there’s some significance to think being uncanny, but beyond this having that feel, I’m not sure what it, what the significance might be.
Male participant 1: What it might be. [00:39:53]
Male participant 1: Before we break.
Male participant 2: Yeah.
Male participant 1: This time is going to be tuff. I think, just given the schedule of feedings and stuff. At the very least it will mean that I am extremely under-slept. I’m often taking a nap a little bit later in the day or sleeping right about this time. So it’s not like an immediate thing, but if there’s another time that we could meet on Monday and Friday, let’s keep an eye out for that.
Male participant 2: Yeah, I think.
Male participant 1: Or whenever you know.
Male participant 2: Right. Yeah I think that I will look for that. I guess I am somewhat optimistic in that often people want hours outside of work so.
Male participant 1: It’s an attractive time.
Male participant 2: Right. Right. Ok, so yeah, I will see you on Friday, unless we can figure out something else.
Male participant 1: Sounds like a plan.
Male participant 1: Ok Kyle, see you then.
END TRANSCRIPT
