TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Welcome back.

CLIENT: Thanks. (laughs) Wow, has this changed. I’m staying over in Belmont with some friends who had an extra room while they look for something else. I can stay there for a while, too. It seems like a pretty flexible thing right now. I communicated with Georgia via e-mail, moving my stuff out of the apartment last weekend and started to basically separate as amiably as possible, which seems to be going pretty well. [00:01:18] It’s not like there are [divides] (ph?) or anything like that. I don’t feel as much about everything. I think I have had a long enough time to process it in my mind to talk through with you so that now it seems like de facto, finished with the technical details of it, that I’ve already moved on in my mind; whereas Georgia is still emotionally affected by it and doesn’t want to see me. [00:02:12] But we still e-mail and text occasionally. It feels like it’s the right thing to do for me. It just had kind of played itself out. It’s not about second thoughts and all that, but every time I come back to it and . . . She said, at one point when we were talking on the phone, “There is nothing I wouldn’t have done to make our marriage work,” or something like that which, to me, I just couldn’t not respond to that. [00:03:16] I probably shouldn’t have because it’s like after the fact and where her mind is, but not necessarily her actions at all (laughs) for the last number of years. I said, “You made it about you. It’s about you. Then we came back together and tried it again and you made it about you again.” (chuckles) I shouldn’t have said anything. She thought it was very cruel of me to say that. I think she was trying to extend an olive branch or something by saying that, and then I just said that she was being selfish. I didn’t say those words, but that’s what I wanted to say. [00:04:08] This didn’t work because you’re very selfish, Georgia, and it’s not like that’s something that you’re going to change anytime soon – it’s a part of who you are – without more self-exploration.

THERAPIST: I don’t really see how her saying “there is nothing I wouldn’t have done” is extending an olive branch. Maybe I just don’t get the context.

CLIENT: Maybe it wasn’t. I don’t know. It’s just she was [in grief] (ph?) and said it. And maybe you’re right, but it bothered me. I guess I just never realized . . . I mean, I did. I would get sucked into her world and just lose – not lose entirely – but compromise my ego for her ego. [00:05:03] It felt like it was about her most of the time. She was supporting us financially for a number of years and I had always [ ] (inaudible at 00:05:16) very well. Anyway, just saying that there is nothing I wouldn’t have done is not what you didn’t do, it’s what you did do, (chuckles) like really fought hard for me. In any case, it still bothers me. It bothered me when she said it and it just seems like easier said than done – after the fact especially.

THERAPIST: Also her saying that completely adds to how it felt like she was.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like regardless of the position I was in, which I was clear to her that I was very vulnerable and had lost my self-confidence – all of this – [ ] (inaudible at [0:06:20] of [her and Liam] (ph?). And it’s not so much that she wanted [ ] our relationship [with Liam] (ph?), it’s that she wasn’t aware of what I was going through very well. I don’t know. It feels like I’m losing touch with all of it because I’m sort of divorcing myself from all of that world; and to go back and rehash it feels pointless. But I feel like maybe there are things that I can still learn from it. I don’t know. [00:07:03] When I went home with my parents, they were certain. I made it very clear that we weren’t getting back together or anything and the first thing that they both said separately to me is that it was clear that Georgia was very selfish. It was a trait that they had recognized in her as well. Hearing that, the things that people don’t tell you, was like yeah, that’s it. She’s just so self-absorbed and successful and Type A which, I guess, is to be expected. But successful Type A also equates to really big ego. Not always, but at least I’ve noticed that with people – (chuckles) some people anyway. (pause) [00:08:03] I was tired of being lost in the mix. In addition to that, her ultimatum about wanting to have kids or that we were going to have kids in a year, not that we want to start having kids within the year, but that I would know at that point. And then choosing that life would ultimately limit what I had been working towards and studying all my life – like if I were to pursue that, it would take me into anthropology and travel on a regular basis. She’s wanting to start raising a family and settle down. It just was overwhelmingly clear. [00:09:02] I don’t know. It was good, actually, that I was in Nevada and had the isolation because there were times at which we were able to talk and I was able to explain to her and kind of feel like we were on the same page at one moment about how this makes the most rational sense that, ultimately, our lives are heading in two different directions. Sure, we could take a lot of work and work things out, not without a lot of resentment on one or the other sides, but we could still have it. That would still leave us in this precarious situation of having one of us compromise a great deal on what we wanted, like children for Georgia or my interests in life or career – not to mention the residual resentment of not having experienced more of the relationships or whatever in the world. [00:10:18] It just seemed too obvious to me and I noticed quickly in my rational way, not as emotionally sensitive, but I think the distance and time apart gave her a chance to . . . I don’t know. I think she’s still really hurt. She doesn’t want to see me so that also means to me that there is still a lot of anger for her if she doesn’t want to. I’m hoping that she continues in therapy because I think she’s got a lot of stuff that she was never really accessing. [00:11:07] Her friend, Jaime, told me when I came back from Geneva that she wasn’t even registering what she was doing. She was just doing it. I think that Georgia is really practical and pragmatic, but not as introspective. I think because of that she has these blind spots that are just really hard for her to see what’s happening with me. That’s sad. I’m not the most open person and when I’m struggling with something I usually just kind of get quiet and try to figure something out, so I know the role that I played in all of it, too. (pause) [00:12:01]

THERAPIST: I’m not sure if you feel a little bit like you’re sort of dutifully explaining all of this to me but would rather be thinking and talking about something else.

CLIENT: I feel like I’m in that place, in general. My mind goes back to it dutifully, even by myself sometimes. And then I just think what the fuck? Who cares? (laughs) It’s over. Move on – which I am. I’m totally moving on. I got the Yale Award, which is like a mentoring Fellow award that highlights dissertations. There are 70 applicants and they got whittled down in their interviews last Friday and then I found out yesterday that I was awarded the thing.

THERAPIST: So what is it for? [00:13:02]

CLIENT: It’s a way of showcasing dissertations through Yale, like certain dissertations that they think are interesting, I guess, and then they try to hone what it is you’re saying for larger audiences. At the end there is this kind of tech-talk conference. So it was exciting. I’m really glad I get a chance to have a bit of a platform to talk about the Egyptology and what can be done with it.

THERAPIST: That’s great. Nice timing, too.

CLIENT: (laughs) Exactly. It’s like okay; moving on. That’s helpful. It feels like I have some momentum again with what I’m doing. [00:14:03]

THERAPIST: Something good happened.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I was kind of like well, if I get it then that’s cool and if I don’t, then I will just go back to Nevada (laughs) because it’s nice and warm there and it’s a pretty good place to write. My family has been really cool. They are fine with me drinking or – I wasn’t really drinking much there just because I didn’t want to drink alone, but I was smoking pot there and nobody said anything. I imagine they must have smelled it. Not tons, but I needed some release. They’re cool with me being not what they are religiously. They’ve all redeemed themselves in my mind, (chuckles) not that they are in some bad category. [00:15:09] Sometimes the distance and having that kind of religious division can make it seem like this might be a little weird, but it was cool.

THERAPIST: Good. (pause)

CLIENT: Otherwise, I’m just trying to work some of these details out. I don’t really have much else going on. (pause) [00:16:00] It has been really good. I am worried a little bit, just because I know myself and I know that I’m not emotionally in touch all the time or in touch with my demotions as much, and my moving on and being rational might be a way of avoiding or whatever my emotions. I don’t know. I come back to it and sure, there are some days I feel that after being in a relationship with someone who was a really good friend – not entirely the right fit for me, but really close – it’s difficult to not have that. [00:17:01] But it was just getting to such a point there at the end that the cost of maintaining my friendship with Georgia or a relationship with her was so great, there were these caustic moments. But I think it helped my separation even more emotionally so that now I feel relatively over it internally. I know I’ve been dealing with it more ever since Geneva, and so it’s not catching me all at once like it is Georgia and that’s why she’s taking it so hard. Plus I guess it always hurts more if you’re the one being broken up with, so that makes sense, too. [00:17:58]

THERAPIST: I’m not, at least not yet, hearing you avoiding upset or sadness. Maybe it’s just not coming up yet, but you don’t sound like you’re coming to a sad feeling or coming to something that you’re upset about and then turning in another direction.

CLIENT: Oh, good.

THERAPIST: Projecting it onto somebody else or like that. I’m hearing you say that there are moments when you miss her, but you also sound, I think, pretty relieved.

CLIENT: Definitely. It’s a relief to be free, you know? Free of all of the, again, the cognitive dissonance, like this going back and forth between two places. I wanted to leave the relationship entirely without [pain] (ph?) (laughs) but it’s not possible. [00:19:05] I wanted to say I had exhausted every resource and I had bent over backwards and did my absolute best to make this work, and it just became overwhelmingly clear that it wasn’t going to – and that’s when I broke from it. And then Georgia comes back and says something like that and it’s like maybe I am being hasty, you know? But it’s just a flicker of a thought. It’s not a prevailing one. In the end, I don’t need the narrative to come out that James is the good guy because I understand that fundamentally it was my undoing our religious undergirding that really compromised the stability in our relationship, I think, but that stability was based on false perceptions of reality, (laughs) so it can’t withstand the harsh truth of the way the world works [in and out of the] (ph?) problems anyway, is my opinion. [00:20:18] It’s just funny that all of the stereotypes that are taught to you from the church, like if you leave the church your marriage will fail and your life will turn to shit or whatever, it all makes sense to me why those marriages all began to exist in the first place, because it’s true. If people wise up to the fact that religion is based on lies and false readings and whatever, then there is really no chance that they’ll probably undo a lot of other things in the wake of leaving. I don’t mind if that’s the narrative. [00:21:08] In fact, I think that that’s probably what’s pretty accurate.

THERAPIST: Actually, maybe there are times [ ] (inaudible at 00:21:30) I don’t think their lives have turned to shit. (both laugh) A marriage can break up and [ ] in some way, although overall it sounds like you’re relieved. The relationships with your family aren’t based on the same things they used to be, but . . .

CLIENT: It’s so much better now.

THERAPIST: . . . actually, for you, it seems to work a lot better. Work seems pretty good.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [00:21:56] I feel like I got really lucky that way, in that I found a really novel dissertation topic and then was able to kind of carry it out enough to generate some of this that’s happening now. Yeah, you’re right. It’s all working out and it’s working out for Georgia, too, even though she’s hurt emotionally. I think that she’ll get what she wants much more quickly. So that’s a good point.

THERAPIST: I understand the exchange with your family and your marriage break-up; and my impression is that your friends are some of the same people, especially the ones who have left the church, but your social life is different. Yeah, it doesn’t sound like it’s been bad, actually. [00:23:04](both chuckle) [00:23:04]

CLIENT: That’s true. I know. And that’s why I’m overall positive and happy. It’s not that I’ve ever really been very different. I’m pretty even-keeled that way just by default. I got very lucky that way, I guess. Yeah, I know. It’s like relief and this sense of freedom – like when I was in Geneva – that I was craving when I came back, especially when I went over and there was conflict or a confrontation between the two of us. Just ideas will come to mind where it reaffirms something that I’m doing, like look, there is no way that Georgia would ever have a different frame than the religious one that we both rejected. [00:24:01] She was not changing her feelings because she’s so emotionally entrenched in a lot of things, like her feelings about sex and all of that were still influenced from religion. I think she was always threatened by masturbation and pornography which, to me, meant nothing. I explained that to her before. It’s like these are not substitutes for a sexual relationship in my mind. They’re not. I’ll never get satiated just by myself. She always felt threatened by it, so I don’t know. That was always a problem and I felt like it always would be. [00:25:00] Pot would always be a problem with her. My curiosity was too great for her. Anyway, these things will come to me and will just kind of reaffirm what I’m doing. It feels like the timing and everything is happening right for me. Then when I check in with other people or let people know what’s happening with me, they’re like “holy shit, this is so fast” (chuckles) – dissolve a marriage in a matter of months rather than have a long period of separation. So I am trying to be sensitive about that with Georgia, but it seems to me like she’s ready to kind of put an end to it as well and she’s in step that way. [00:26:07] So I guess that’s all that matters really. It feels great to just be away from it all and I’ve already met a couple of people, like introductory date kind of things. It’s interesting. I don’t feel as constraining, at least, in a way, or at least worry and all of that that it can lead to something. It’s like I can just not worry about that, although I am still a bit guarded that I don’t want a relationship (laughs) taking off. [00:27:05] But yeah, it feels like the timing is all just fine with me that way. Then I think that I told Georgia that if she was ever to die I would pine for her and now I don’t need to do that really, do I? (chuckles) It is definitely going to be an awkward transition for me. I feel mainly that’s because it’s been years since I’ve been dating or anything like that and I really didn’t have much experience with it before.

THERAPIST: I don’t really know, but I would imagine it’s a bit different in the religious context.

CLIENT: Oh, totally. It’s not sexual at all. [00:28:01] It’s more than platonic if you want it to be. It crosses over into a romantic relationship, and I don’t know if this is just me or maybe there is some environmental residual from religion still, but I’m just not comfortable or it’s not instinctive for me to be flirtatious. I don’t have any idea whatsoever about, or really interest for that matter in kind of like the bar culture and hooking up with girls. I feel like that kind of puts me at a disadvantage because I’ll have less experiences with sex. I mean I know I’ve had a lot of experience with sex with one person. [00:29:03] I feel definitely behind and inhibited and all that sexually, but I’ll just take it in stride. You can’t obsess about this stuff because it just makes it worse. (chuckles) I’m not going to try and do something about it. I’ll just let things happen naturally and it is what it is, is the way I’m thinking about it anyway. It’s all very interesting. It’s kind of like fun to start the next stage of things. [00:29:58]

THERAPIST: Maybe you’re a little bit anxious about the dating or sexual stuff or feeling a little behind and unsure, but also excited about it and not that anxious about it, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah. The curiosity will prevail for me. (laughs) (pause) The freedom makes me now realize how easy it is for me to travel. I’m planning on going to a conference in Geneva and I’ll probably be gone for the bulk of the summer just doing that, which I’m really excited about because that’s one way I felt like I was always more limited being married, even though we traveled a lot. [00:31:08] I was married to Georgia and lived for three years abroad, two in France with her and then one in Geneva.

THERAPIST: When are you expecting to finish?

CLIENT: May, 2015.

THERAPIST: So next spring.

CLIENT: Yeah. With all of this, I kind of fell behind and didn’t get the fellowship award, but I’m on this mentoring award, which is like a financial award as well. A lot of people will apply for the fellowship later than the year they’re actually finishing so that they can continue to get funding in Yale affiliation while they look for jobs. I might just end up doing that instead. [00:31:58]

THERAPIST: Can you only get it at one of those times?

CLIENT: No. There is a deadline like they say, but I learned from someone who has been in the department a long time that you can really apply for it at any point, as long as you have two chapters and your letters of recommendation; then you submit it and it’s a guaranteed thing.

THERAPIST: It’s not competitive? If you have that stuff, you’re good.

CLIENT: Exactly. The competitive award I got is a better anyway, in terms of what it will do for my awareness.

THERAPIST: Sure. I imagine it was great.

CLIENT: Yeah. One, in awareness, because they take you around and you present your dissertation in various forms to different groups of people, so it sounds like it could be a great way to get some networking or maybe get my foot in the digital humanities a little more, which is better than just taking some money to finish my writing. [00:33:06]

THERAPIST: Sure. Absolutely.

CLIENT: At least I’m looking to be done with all of my chapters and things by that time.

THERAPIST: And will you start thinking about job stuff in the fall, or are you just going to wait?

CLIENT: That’s a good question. I would like to kind of feel it out this summer overseas, in fact. If I can go and teach in France or Geneva for a couple of years, that would be ideal. [00:34:00] Typically, I guess, there is a search [ ] (inaudible at 00:34:01) when you get close to being done, or maybe after you’re done. Then they gather applicable opportunities. I think a lot of that I should do on my own, as well, but there aren’t that many positions in the U.S. I’m kind of uncertain a little about the position I would like to have. I do enjoy teaching, but I enjoy more dynamic classes than just a simple language course. But I also have enjoyed doing the research aspect of this, so I don’t know if I can apply for digital humanities positions and maybe that would be more like along the lines of what I’m looking for. [00:35:12] There are really so few Egyptology positions. I know I should start thinking about that.

THERAPIST: I have no idea. You have plenty of other things to think about. (both laugh) I was just curious if you had been thinking about it. But not surprisingly, you’re focused on other things.

CLIENT: You can start a little too soon and then you wind up teaching while you’re writing your dissertation, and that’s the last thing I want to do. I haven’t been the most prolific graduate student, so I will spend some time really focusing on my writing. [00:36:06] It’s funny because I was always a little self-conscious about my writing and it turns out – like I wrote a prospectus and my advisor thought it was brilliant, so at least now I’m not as self-conscious about it and can use the words that I have and continue writing the way I have been.

THERAPIST: That’s great.

CLIENT: I’m not sure all of it is and all that, but at least it’s not like I need to find some ghost writer or something like that. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Right. At least they’re basically happy with it.

CLIENT: It’s rare to get accolades from him and I think he is. Even though it’s hard for him to grasp exactly what it is that I’m doing, I think he sees it as something novel and that will really help the sub-field of old Syrian studies and because of that, he’s pleased with it, I think. [00:37:10]

THERAPIST: Do you have thoughts about what you want to do about this?

CLIENT: I don’t really. I missed not having this for an outlet, for sure. Being away and isolated, I was very contemplative and I had the chance to really center and make sure what I was doing was authentic and all of that, but I didn’t have a lot of – and I still don’t (chuckles) – have a lot of outlets for what’s happening, I guess. [00:38:02] As I said in my e-mail as well, it seems like a lot of – and I don’t want to reduce everything to my relationship and the problems there because there were, of course, underlying things. I think that it’s still helpful for me, even if I might have less to talk about. (chuckles) I didn’t know if it’s okay to do it in less intensity.

THERAPIST: Sure. You should do what you want.

CLIENT: I think it was really helpful that we did do a much more intense time, and it kind of helped me to take that brave internal step. [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: Sure. You should do what you want. It can be any way you want. We can meet once a week; we can meet twice a week. You can do that and change your mind. Whatever you want to do and take breaks. I think consistency is generally a good thing, but you should do what you want. You don’t have to make any final decisions. Sometimes it takes me a while if, at some point you want more appointments, just to find it on my schedule, but even with that you can do whatever you want.

CLIENT: Oh, great. I feel like once a week would probably hit what my needs are. Twice a week can be good, too.

THERAPIST: Think about it, if you want.

CLIENT: Okay. Great. That would be great. [00:40:06]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I don’t want to lose your relationship. I feel like we have this context where now I don’t have too many people who actually know this difficult transition, so it’s helpful to feel like I have some context still and grounding in that way. I would appreciate it and am really glad I came to you. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Thank you. I’m very glad it’s been helpful. I know it’s been kind of a rocky time.

CLIENT: Yeah, it started off pretty rocky. (laughs) I think that’s probably the most depressed I’ve ever been in my life and, at the time, I wouldn’t have even said that I was depressed. Funny how things change. [00:41:07] (pause) It really did work for the best, though, because I was just so – I don’t know. It felt complacent and I placed so much of my self-esteem in Georgia. I think it took that to start for me to re-center.

THERAPIST: Why don’t we stop for now and I’ll see you on Thursday morning?

CLIENT: Sounds good. Thanks. See you later.

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