TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: I guess, at this point, it’s still like I’m for the most part the majority of the time, very settled with the decision I made (chuckles); but it’s not without certain my mind will turn over sometimes and say is it the right thing? Was I being too hasty? [00:01:02] I think I have a tendency to need the sense of having done everything I could, that there is nothing more to be done, which isn’t every the case, I’m come to find. (chuckles) You can always add more or do something or be more patient, more long-suffering. So I don’t necessarily dwell there, but I think it feels like it’s just a natural consequence of having made a pretty big life decision which resulted in, more or less, the cessation of a really close relationship in my life is now completely muted. It’s not like it’s not there, it’s just like I have no more access to it really. [00:02:01] I don’t want to do that either, but it’s just too painful for Georgia to try to maintain something at this point. We e-mail more of logistics occasionally, once a week or maybe two weeks or something like that. We talked about some of my biggest fears around this is just the sense that I would lose a lot of the connections that I had in my life or the relationships that I had. I feel like that has happened, to a certain degree, in that I always think of it really similar to, as when I’ve got all these social connections through religion, some of which help, like close friendships. [00:03:09] Others felt more like obligatory in some ways or just out of circumstance and I found really quickly after leaving the church that none of those relationships meant very much because they’re all gone and they don’t give a fuck about me (laughs). I don’t give a lot back, so there wasn’t really an expectation. It was just an observation I made at the time where you feel like there is this network of support and friends and people who will come and help you move and all of that, which is true, but it’s completely dependent upon you being a member of the church. I feel like my marriage is very similar in that I have all of these friends through Georgia and through our marriage that was convenient in some ways because they are couples that are also married or whatever and in a similar place in life. [00:04:11] Some of them felt like real friends, but maybe I’m starting to realize out of proximity like going to the gym, the gym that Georgia still works at, which I don’t feel like I can go to because Georgia has drawn some boundaries around me not interacting. She doesn’t want to run into me. It’s a fear of hers and I’m very accommodating and all of that, so it’s like being very informative about the types of relationships that exist in my life. [00:05:02] How many of those are genuinely interested in me as a person versus how many of those are out of convenience and what not, like circumstance and convenience, proximity? It has been insightful. I think it’s helped me at this point in my life where I am looking for new friends and new relationships to have a real connection instead of some of those dishonest connections. It’s been an interesting learning process about relationships. I think had I maybe taken a harder stand, I probably would still be connected with more people that way, but it also wasn’t as important to me as I think it is to Georgia to feel like she has this core group of people and she has her version that, I’m sure, she’s telling them, which is different from my experience. [00:06:17] But it doesn’t matter to me as much. I know it exists in my mind a little bit, but I don’t care about that kind of stuff as long as she’s not – whatever. It’s just like moving on from having what appeared to be this pretty social inter-connected life for me to now being the lone wolf, off on my own, and not really accountable to anyone and enjoying that in some ways, but also trying to decide how to . . .
THERAPIST: It sounds a little like a married couple that owns a home, gets divorced – one person gets the house, the other person gets the car. [00:07:07] You divide up the kids’ time. It sounds to me like you’re saying she’s getting all the friendships.
CLIENT: I think we’ve been trying to divide things up based on what matters more to the person. (chuckles) So yeah, she’s gotten most of the friendships and I think if I were more extroverted I would have maybe tried more in that way; but instead I’ve just kind of backed away from it all. I’ve never had too many difficulties making friends, but it’s not something that lasts for me normally. Unless I can really connect on a deeper intellectual level, usually it’s just kind of for a time. [00:08:06]
THERAPIST: It’s also saying that you’re disappointed that some of those friendships, which seemed more like real friendships, feel now more like facades of friendships.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I think the process is a bit sobering and disappointing. Yeah. More, I think, helpful for the long term to think about what are the types of friendships I want in my life? It will be people who, regardless of the ups and downs, will still be interested in or invested in something long term and it’s hard to find that, I think. It takes . . . (pause) I think it’s hard to connect with people on a real fundamental level. It’s a lot easier to have a large number of more superficial, circumstantial relationships. [00:09:06] That’s what I’ve seen in patterns in mine and Georgia’s life, but it’s also been fun and insightful in that way because I have seen which are the ones that have stayed and why; and it’s usually because there are more substantive reasons for being friends, rather than just that we have a good time together or we’ll go out to dinner occasionally. (pause) [00:10:01] I guess it’s like a transition for me right now. I don’t know if it was an impression that I had while I was with Georgia that my life was not really stable, but that it was already kind of dynamic; now it feels even more so. It’s like I can be living in a different country next year for all I know, I think; and so I feel like I’m in this really unstable place, but one where I have complete autonomy, so that feels very rewarding and gratifying to me, even with the instability. It feels like it’s worth it already, just to have that freedom. [00:11:01] I don’t know if I was reactionary to having been in a pretty controlling relationship or if this is just what I need more of – this independent time. Looking ahead in future relationships, it’s something I need to kind of try to control more. So either I’m in this reactionary phase or it’s what I really want. In any case, it’s a transition, it seems.
THERAPIST: I guess it’s probably somewhat each of those things at once.
CLIENT: Yeah, it’s compound.
THERAPIST: It would be nice if there were some way to have the autonomy and the stability at the same time. The autonomy is really nice, but instability is not so great. [00:12:09] I guess the opportunity to think about what you want next is kind of nice.
CLIENT: Yeah. That’s true. It’s kind of hard for me to even get a sense. I guess now I’m trying to tell myself now to take some time being in a non-relationship phase of your life to just get some experience with different types of people or whatever. It seems like everyone I meet is different and unique and not (chuckles) some kind of a pattern. It’s like I could come up with a list of attributes that I would ideally find in someone, like you’re close to someone and you say, “That could work.” [00:13:02] That’s kind of what I felt like my relationship with Georgia was. It’s like you can make a lot of things work until you can’t anymore. (laughs) I don’t know. In any case, I’m going along and just trying to keep myself . . .
THERAPIST: You’re saying there were certain aspects of your relationship with Georgia that were more like – maybe not the façade model, but model of convenience than you realized.
CLIENT: Oh, yeah. I know that was definitely this realization that I was living with my parents until 18 or 19 and it was getting to the point where mom was gone most of the time, so I didn’t really have much relationship with her. [00:14:02] My dad wanted me to be like him, even though it was clear that I was the opposite. I was like my mom. I think we had a number of confrontations, not physical, but at least arguments or whatever where it was clear to me that he was not going to understand that I was different and I just needed to create some boundaries for my own well-being and make some distance there. I think that that came in the form of me leaving. I left for college and then I was gone on a mission for two years and then I went back to college; so basically, I feel like this emotional confrontation that I had with my dad drove me from home. It was the impetus to get away and never come back. [00:15:03]
It was interesting coming back during this winter break – and all of that was in kind of a dissipated sense, of course – and to revisit that maybe one of the reasons that I was looking to get married was to have this time from my parents, that I didn’t have to go back with them and I didn’t look to them for any kind of support necessarily. I ultimately just traded one father figure for another because Georgia is so much like my dad in that regard. I am kind of abandoning her in the same way in that the emotional confrontation just became too great for me and caustic. [00:15:59] I feel like in that process, in this time of being able to compare these two models, how I react similarly in certain ways and how I want to not repeat that for sure. I feel like the conflict that I had with my dad I’ve since resolved. We’ve been able to acknowledge each other’s differences and let that play to our advantage and then when there is a row, we can just step back and say we’re different people. I’m hoping that I can break away from whatever it is that I’m attracted to in that type of relationship, which is very much my opposite, like extroverted, emotionally-charged person, to someone maybe more like myself. I think if I am to find someone who is more like myself, we’ll have a lot more common ground. It won’t be like living with this oddity that I don’t understand because I felt like that often with Georgia. [00:17:07]
It was insightful to see that we’re really different; she’s high-strung and I’m really chilled. Because of that dynamic, we did complement each other in a lot of ways, but it was also frustrating to never quite feel really understood and to have the level of engagement that filled my intimacy needs, which really is all about intellectual engagement for me. That’s kind of what I’m toying with, at least in my mind, someone who isn’t more like my dad and someone who is more like my mom and myself, but within reason. My mom always says it’s important that opposites attract to balance you out, but it’s just so much more work when you’re with your opposite. [00:18:08] Maybe it’s just that I haven’t been exposed to enough people like myself to realize that this might not work out either. (laughs) It’s all trial and error and that’s the frustrating part for me; (sighs) it’s that there is just so much diversity I can’t control for it all to develop some kind of method or model that will allow me to put faith or any real surety in a long-term relationship with that person, so I’m going about this in a way of saying Georgia and my relationship had a shelf life of ten years and that expired. Maybe I’ll find one that has a shelf life of two years and that will expire, but it’s like every relationship has these limitations that I feel like you can’t control for. [00:19:08] The chemistry experiment needs two unique individuals coming together and the chemistry that ensues will be unique and you can’t control for it. It will play itself out and either it will be something that can last for ten years plus or something shorter than that. From more of a naturalistic view, nothing lasts forever. Of course, obviously, nothing does; we’re all going to die at some point. This is more, I guess, my thoughts on what relationships are now.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: At least more intense ones, the ones where you’re living together even my parents. [00:20:04] You think families are forever. I guess you don’t think that necessarily, but familial relationships, it’s like there is an interest and investment and something long term, but I’m not living with my family and I don’t know that I could live with them (chuckles). Maybe it’s just me, that I am more independent. I need someone who is capable of that more so than what Georgia was. I don’t know. It’s a bit daunting feeling like . . .
THERAPIST: You’re not describing any relationships that have worked in a long term way, and maybe you’ve not been close to any or involved in any that have worked the way you would want a relationship to work in a long-term way. [00:21:09] Actually, I suspect you sound a little bit frightened or anxious. One thing that crossed my mind as you were talking is that there is some way you sounded like 18th or 19th century philosophers, trying to reason something through from first principles about the natural world or even physiology or something, that they have what we would today see as a pretty limited set of data to start with. I’m not trying to be critical, but what stands out to me most is the quality of you trying to reason this out. Here’s what happened with Georgia. Here’s what happened with my dad. Here’s what I’m foreseeing for the future.
CLIENT: [ ] (inaudible at 00:23:08) to learn from it, right? It’s true, even if it is just completely stochastic and there’s nothing you can take from one chemistry experiment on to the next.
THERAPIST: It’s not that you can’t learn from it . . . I don’t think I have a clear way to say it or explain it. Some of the things that are occurring to me are like I don’t think you and Georgia are opposites. I think there are important ways in which you are different – sure. I understand she’s more extroverted and you’re more introverted. I’m not convinced. [00:24:02] If you say she’s high-strung, I believe you that she’s high-strung. I’m not convinced that you’re chill all the time. I think you can be kind of anxious and high-strung sometimes. I think you’re much more low key.
CLIENT: Yeah, low key. There is some of that.
THERAPIST: There are probably a bunch of ways you guys are similar. She can be angry and reactive. My sense is that neither one of you went out of your way to be cruel to the other particularly. I suspect you had some similar values in friendships in the people you spend time with. I don’t know all the details.
CLIENT: There is a much broader spectrum that I have not been exposed to, I’m sure, it sounds like.
THERAPIST: Something like that. [00:25:00] Maybe that’s it. Maybe this is somehow, and I’m not yet sure why it seems important, but you seem to be reasoning about this as though you were in a closed system, like she is your opposite as opposed to you share some similar characteristics and some different characteristics, and in some ways you’re quite different. And then there are the reasons, which are kind of related to that, why it didn’t work.
CLIENT: That’s a good point. I think you’re right. I’m trying to draw these larger models based on really limited data.
THERAPIST: It’s not like there’s nothing to think about or that you can’t learn from this. I think you can, but yeah, [some way you can learn big lessons.] (ph?)
CLIENT: You can’t really draw abstracts. [00:26:04]
THERAPIST: Like the whole world in a grandstand, sort of. That would be an exaggeration, obviously.
CLIENT: No, but I think it’s a good point. That’s where I was saying that it just feels kind of daunting and I realize I can date the rest of my life and not exhaust the potential different types of people that are out there, really, who may or may not be compatible with me. So really, relationships and all are just about these stochastic encounters. It’s all just chaos.
THERAPIST: Right. I guess it seems for you right now like the alternative to a more closed system about which you can reason out the things that matter is otherwise is chaos and you’ll jump into the dating world and not know which way is up or what’s worth pursuing if you want to pursue something more serious at some point. [00:27:08]
CLIENT: Or what are the warning signs for long-term expiration dates?
THERAPIST: I would imagine that is quite overwhelming and terrifying because . . .
CLIENT: On the downside. There is an upside as well. It’s just full of potential and curiosity. You just take the good with the bad, I guess. That’s what most people do. It’s like shooting in the dark. (laughs)
THERAPIST: No, I don’t think that’s true. I don’t think most people would say, “You know – whatever. We decided to get engaged. We’re probably shooting in the dark.” There are certainly some people . . .
CLIENT: Dating is shooting in the dark maybe.
THERAPIST: Maybe. Yeah. Maybe looking back it feels that way. [00:28:03] I guess it sounds as though . . . But actually it kind of does when I stop and think about it because I would imagine you felt very quickly that she was a lot like your dad.
CLIENT: That’s funny. I didn’t make that connection until much, much later, but I think there must have been. Yeah, it’s true, which is funny to me.
THERAPIST: The other thing, and maybe I’m wrong about this, but I have the feeling you’re kind of responding to it emotionally, but not quite thinking through, maybe. Maybe I’m wrong, but whatever distance there was between you and Georgia and, at times or of sorts, lack of intimacy there was, what was going on in the relationship and how she was, mattered tremendously to you. [00:29:09] A lot of people, I think, to leave, even though it has clearly been a relief in a lot of ways, what happened with she and Liam when it initially happened, was really distressing. There are ways that you were feeling really shut down at times in the relationship. It really affected you a lot.
CLIENT: My self-esteem got a shock and I realized it needed to happen for me to be more autonomous socially in terms of where I’m getting my self-esteem. (chuckles)
THERAPIST: I guess my point is that there are real stakes and it’s dangerous, which I imagine makes the sense of uncertainty about having to navigate it scarier.
CLIENT: Yeah. [00:30:04] I’ve started to see myself, though, now in this position of being autonomous, having gone through a lot in terms of life experience, and am still at a relatively young age; and maybe being more dangerous than vulnerable – not that I want to be. I’m not looking for a relationship right now, but I am very curious in trying to explore different types of relationships, different types of girls (chuckles). I worry that there is this almost consumer, predatorial kind of – because it’s already out there in the dating world anyway. [00:30:58] I don’t want to hurt people, but I’m also unwilling to maintain some kind of relationship if it really isn’t going anywhere and I can sense that rather quickly. But then there is this sort of social obligation in a way that I feel like well, we did meet only once and maybe I do owe this person the chance to push them again. It’s like that social awkward kind of thing where it makes things rather difficult for me in that way, I guess. Not wanting to hurt people’s feelings, but at the same time, getting on with the process of not holding it up just out of social obligation. [00:32:08] I’ve always had a hard time with that and I’ve tended to just play along instead of doing the abrupt thing and being brutally honest. So in that regard I feel like I’m trying to have more courage and just be honest and say no or whatever, but it’s a new thing for me. It feels like it’s uncharted and I feel like I have the potential to kind of step on toes and hurt people, which isn’t someone that I want to be either. (pause) [00:33:03] I guess there is really no other way around it. (chuckles) (pause) I think the difficult part of all of this is me not believing in love anymore. I understand, sure, there is what people think of as love, that initial intense attraction/devotion to one singular object/person. And then what results is a dedicated commitment, but I feel like it’s also called love. [00:34:02]
THERAPIST: [I follow.] (ph?)
CLIENT: I think that for people who are maybe more emotionally oriented or whatever, to their frame it’s more emotional. It means something else to them. I think love means something to Georgia. Maybe it’s just this continuation of the obsession. Maybe it’s just this deep, intense obsession that you can’t shake. Is that love? I don’t know. I feel like if I had more with Georgia that was beyond whatever initial attraction, interest and long-term commitment and investment, but if there was something else there that could be called love that isn’t just this process, that at some stage it evaporated and it was just like it deserted me and I lost it. [00:35:19] It feels too ethereal for me to put my finger on. I have no way of saying it exactly. Things like attraction – that I can wrap my head around. I think it’s a very ambiguous term. It means something different to everyone. Maybe it’s just something that is so unique that when you discover it, there you have it and you just continue it. [00:36:04] It’s some phenomenon rather than this process that I’ve experienced. Do I love my family? Yes, but it’s a processional subtitled love. It’s like we love communicating. We invest time in each other. There is the keen interest, hopefully, that you have to maintain and develop.
THERAPIST: Right. I guess you don’t much associate love with an emotional experience.
CLIENT: Not a singular one, at least. Yeah. Maybe I’m just thinking too much about it. I don’t know. In any case, it’s like lost it’s meaning the more I try to think about it and the only way I can really describe it is the inverse of hate, which is also something I don’t really understand. [00:37:10] But it’s like this intense loathing. It’s still an obsession. Both, to me, seem to be a very intense obsession. It’s just one is the inverse of the other, basically. I don’t know. So those kinds of extremes, to me, feel kind of nebulous. Then in terms of to what end? You start dating; you meet people.
THERAPIST: You must think it’s confusing what the hell people are doing out there.
CLIENT: Well, yeah. To what end? Are they all traditionalists in their minds? Do they all really want to have the picket fence and two kids and a car and all that? [00:38:01] Is that really – am I just one of the few people in society that doesn’t give a fuck about that? (laughs) I don’t think so. Sure, there are plenty of weirdoes like me that don’t want to fall victim to this poster child, tired scenario that the baby boomer’s generation have been pushing. It goes on forever. Maybe I’m just in love with my intellectual pursuits. That was one joke I used to say to Georgia when we were dating. I said you can really only ever be my mistress because I’m married to my intellectual passions, Egyptology or whatever. It was tongue-in-cheek, but it is actually kind of true. [00:39:04] It’s the one thing I’ve been consistently obsessed with for the last how many years of my life.
THERAPIST: And I think relatively [unambivalently.] (ph?) I don’t have the sense that you sort of question it or have a love/hate thing with it. I’m not saying it’s not really hard sometimes or that it isn’t a lot of work.
CLIENT: Well it’s not very demanding either, though. That’s the beauty of having some love interest in [ ] (inaudible at 00:39:42) (both laugh). I’ve look at relationships with curiosity this way.
THERAPIST: It’s an interesting way to say it, too, because I’m not sure everybody would describe academic passions and pursuits as undemanding. [00:40:06] They can be pretty demanding partners. I’m not saying you’re not being accurate about your own experience, I’m just not sure it feels that way to everybody.
CLIENT: I pick it up when I want it and I’m, thank God, interested in what I’m doing and it isn’t so obligatory. I imagine that that’s true that it can become quite dreary and wedded to this ball-and-chain of the dissertation and you hate what you’re doing kind of a thing or you’re just get bored with it.
THERAPIST: Part of it is there aren’t the sort of emotional confrontations and emotional pressures in that sort of demand that you have in mind. [00:41:03]
CLIENT: And regardless of how I change, it’s a static thing. Sure, more can be learned from it and all that, but that’s the other thing. I see how much I’ve changed – really drastic changes – over the 30 years in my life. And I’m supposed to say okay, for the next 30 maybe there is a chance that I’ll be more stable now that I’m out of this cult and all that, but maybe not. Maybe I’m just going to continue to change and how am I supposed to expect that I can find one person who is willing to go through those changes and not let me completely disrupt their life like I did Georgia’s and my family’s, as well? They’re all pretty cool with it, but they’re not living with me. I think that if it was on a daily basis, they’d get really challenged by my world view. [00:42:05]
THERAPIST: We should stop for now. As far as scheduling, do you have thoughts what you want to do? I know I have some time next week, I’m just not sure.
CLIENT: This actually work totally well because I have a meeting every Friday that ends at 5:00.
THERAPIST: I don’t have this on a regular time. It’s going to take me a little while to sort out regular times. My schedule is in a bunch of flow.
CLIENT: No worries. It’s easier for me to hit it just because I live in Arlington Heights now and it’s a bus-ride in.
THERAPIST: I have a 10:00 on Monday morning, but I don’t know if that’s too early.
CLIENT: No, that could work. Cool.
THERAPIST: And then you want to go from there? [00:42:57]
CLIENT: We can be open for a week, if that works best for you.
THERAPIST: For a few weeks.
CLIENT: I’m better. [ ] (inaudible at 00:43:05). So it’s February the 21st and Monday the 24th.
THERAPIST: Monday, the 24th, at 10:00 AM.
CLIENT: One other thing I do want to talk more about next time is that I don’t have too many outlets to express insecurities and I tend to just push them down and not acknowledge them internally even. I should probably use this time for that a little bit more because I’m getting to this place where I’m starting to feel like an island. I don’t have too many outlets to express insecurities and I tend to just push them down and not acknowledge them internally even. I should probably use this time for that a little bit more because I’m getting to this place where I’m starting to feel like an island. [00:44:01] I don’t want to become this misanthrope.
THERAPIST: (chuckles) Sorry about that. Have a good weekend.
CLIENT: Thanks. You, too. Any fun plans?
THERAPIST: Pretty low key this weekend, I think.
CLIENT: Stay warm.
THERAPIST: You, too.
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