TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Which is -
CLIENT: One of the two big legal research search engines.
THERAPIST: Westlaw?
CLIENT: Westlaw � WestlawNext. And the other one is a Lexis.
THERAPIST: Oh yeah, I heard of Lexis.
CLIENT: Yeah, they have just kind of the normal academic search engines too I think.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: And I�m just going to give you this before I forget. (pause) All right, I�m sorry about that.
THERAPIST: Oh no.
CLIENT: It�s just had left phone down, I�d lose it.
THERAPIST: Oh. (chuckle) (overlapping voices)
CLIENT: (pause) $97.45?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: That�s good.
THERAPIST: That�s the magic number?
CLIENT: That�s the magic number. (pause) All right.
THERAPIST: How you doing?
CLIENT: I�m okay; I�m okay.
THERAPIST: I did tell you about my vacation plans? [00:01:03]
CLIENT: If you did, I don�t remember.
THERAPIST: Okay, I might not have.
CLIENT: Okay, so let me get my calendar out.
THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah, you know what? I bet I didn�t.
CLIENT: I don�t think you did.
THERAPIST: I�m going to be here next Monday, but not the following the 7th. So I�m actually going to be � I�ll be out from July Fourth, which lands on a Friday through July 13th, and back on the 14th. I will be here on Monday the 14th. (pause)
CLIENT: All right. So (pause) you are here on Monday the 14th.
THERAPIST: Yes. And I�ll the next � I�ll be here the 30th of June, but not the 7th.
CLIENT: So there�ll be one day that�s different that�s different, and that is Monday the 7th.
THERAPIST: That�s right.
CLIENT: And you�re not here.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Okay. (pause) You�re not trying to reschedule that are you?
THERAPIST: No, I�m going to be out that whole � I�m gone the Fourth, and then gone that entire week.
SPEAKER 3: That�s only (inaudible at 00:02:11).
THERAPIST: Are you going to be away at all this summer?
CLIENT: For � no, not (specifically) (ph) for what? For like holidays?
THERAPIST: Just vacation.
CLIENT: I might hop up to Maine on the Fourth of July. My mom�s been talking about that since like December.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I�m probably going to have to. But no, I�m not going to be going over there or anything.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: As far as I can tell. (pause) No.
THERAPIST: Don�t really want to?
CLIENT: Don�t really want to.
THERAPIST: No.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Is that right? (chuckle)
CLIENT: Ah-huh. Who fucking will ask me that?
THERAPIST: Ah-huh.
CLIENT: It�s weird.
THERAPIST: Yeah, what are you �
CLIENT: I mean you going away somewhere fun?
THERAPIST: Me?
CLIENT: Yeah. Are you going to like -
THERAPIST: Yeah. (chuckle) Kind of. (chuckle) (overlapping voices)
SPEAKER 3: He�s going to see the parents; the alternative.
THERAPIST: Kind of; kind of fun. Yeah, let�s see, Ottumwa; (chuckle) it�ll be interesting.
CLIENT: Family? [00:03:12]
THERAPIST: It�s actually, I�m going to see (pause) I�m going � my girlfriend�s family lives in Ohio.
CLIENT: Really?
THERAPIST: Yeah, so I�m going out there.
CLIENT: How cool. I didn�t know you had a girlfriend.
THERAPIST: I have a girlfriend.
CLIENT: Wow. (pause) That�s cool. You been together for a long time?
THERAPIST: We�ve been together for it�s now eight months.
CLIENT: Eight months.
THERAPIST: Mm-mm. Yep. Are you surprised? (pause) What�s this news like to you? (pause)
CLIENT: I got the impression that it wasn�t something that you were like guarding or anything, but (pause) yeah I just suspected that you were kind of like a (inaudible at 00:04:11); that that was like a boundary.
THERAPIST: Oh, ah-huh.
CLIENT: You know?
THERAPIST: Ah-huh.
CLIENT: A rather surprising moment, but (pause) no worries.
THERAPIST: Yeah is this too much information?
CLIENT: No, I don�t think that that�s too much.
SPEAKER 3: It can be; it certainly can be. (laughter) (overlapping voices)
CLIENT: Yeah, well I guess I asked. (pause) How would that be � I�m just curious, how would that be too much information? I�m just curious.
THERAPIST: You know the whole � I think it�s like in my mind, it�s kind of equated with � you know how like (pause) this is kind of a crude analogy maybe. And not an exact one, but you know, the teacher � like you see the teacher outside of school, it gives people the willies. Or seeing anybody in this kind of different kind of � in one context, having something outside can be yeah � (pause)
CLIENT: Well that�s not [an equate] (ph) idea, if it still holds true.
THERAPIST: Well not absolutely though.
CLIENT: I think I�d say a � (pause) (inaudible at 00:05:39).
THERAPIST: Yeah right.
CLIENT: No, yeah. I see what he�s saying. If you like bumped into a teacher at a bar or something, then I knew my teacher went to bars, would it disrupt my kind of notion of who that person is or something?
THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.
CLIENT: I thought you were going to say it was like � it�d be like a (pause) jealousy thing or something. That was the first thing I was thinking.
THERAPIST: Oh. Oh, is that right?
CLIENT: Yeah, no.
THERAPIST: Jealousy in terms of a girlfriend or?
CLIENT: Yeah, I mean in the same way.
THERAPIST: That you�d be jealous of me, oh okay.
CLIENT: Yeah, that�s just the first place that (pause) my thoughts went to.
THERAPIST: Oh yeah, I get it; yeah.
CLIENT: I�m sure you think about it; something of this quantity, because you seem like you � to say nothing of the value of it, you know, because I�m very ambivalent. I had no real like idea about what makes sense for you to disclose to me or what not. But I got the impression you had kind of a calculated deliberate, you know, system set up for what was kind of permissible, and what was not permissible. [00:07:01]
You know what I mean? I feel pulled and prodded at you to try to get more details from you at times, and like you seemed very kind of confident as to where (pause) you know, you would cease to (solicit) (ph) things.
THERAPIST: Ah-huh, ah-huh.
CLIENT: Yeah, anything in particular? You seem like you have a very clear idea about when (pause).
THERAPIST: Like when I�d say, I�ll tell you about this, but this is where I�m going to � this is how far I�ll go?
CLIENT: Yeah, or when a � I ask you something, and then when you answer with like a, (pause) you know, why do you � you know. What does that kind of topic or something mean to you? Or what it would mean to you if I suggested not � I�d always kind of interpreted that as on the one hand a genuine, kind of directing discussions where it�s somewhere, you know, important, but also kind of like the decision that (pause) you weren�t going to answer that. (pause) That�s how I interpreted it. Which is fine with me. Like I said, I assumed you had a good reason for it. You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Yeah, you kind of think I thought I�d been deliberate about it or something.
CLIENT: I suspect when you go to these conferences that you (inaudible at 00:08:25), you know, someone�s probably giving a talk about � I mean I can imagine a conference talk about it, you know, you�d tell your you�d discuss your girlfriend essentially.
THERAPIST: Mm-mm. (pause)
CLIENT: I suspect you�ve � I imagine the body of waters from somewhere. The first thing I thought when you told me that you�d been together with her (great) (ph) once, is that, �Wow, we�d been seen together; (laughter) we�d been doing this much longer than that.� (laughter)
SPEAKER 3: That just cracks me up though.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah, I don�t even know your parents. (pause) Yeah. You don�t seem too excited about that.
THERAPIST: Oh, about my girlfriends� parents?
CLIENT: Before you even told me like what you were doing, and I got the impression it something you were kind of ambivalent about. (chuckle) Your nerves were telling me about something. [00:09:30]
THERAPIST: Yeah, only ambivalent about it, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: I used to do that.
THERAPIST: I mean I�ve got � it�s a whole thing, like I � but no, yeah, you were right to pick up on that. (pause) Anxious ambivalent; you got it; you�re right. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah. I hope it goes well.
THERAPIST: (chuckle) Oh, thanks. Me too.
CLIENT: Marriage seems tricky at times. (pause) A general rule.
THERAPIST: Yeah don�t we know? (chuckle)
CLIENT: Yeah. Don�t we know?
THERAPIST: Yeah, no; you�re right.
CLIENT: They are; they can be tricky. (pause) Yeah, what were we talking about last week? (pause)
THERAPIST: Let�s see, yes. What are you thinking? Where [00:10:38]
CLIENT: Sorry?
THERAPIST: Yeah, what are you thinking? What did we talk about? Anything come to mind?
CLIENT: No, I just felt like (pause) not like I guess just from like an analytical perspective, I�ll share with you. Just like in that little conversation there; like Sam seemed to (pause) illustrate to me like one of the ways in which, you know, we can have a conversations at any rate about things that I could never really have conversations with other people about. (pause)
That seemed like one kind of (pause) point at which I was maybe talking with a friend or something; I would imagine you would share more with me about what you were thinking about.
THERAPIST: Oh yeah.
CLIENT: I would feel more comfortable asking you questions in that perspective. So I guess I felt our conversation would come up against that wall.
SPEAKER 3: Oh I see, yeah. (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, well what does that � I guess, what does that mean to you? [00:11:49] (pause)
CLIENT: A wall. I mean � (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah what � (pause)
CLIENT: I guess it�s just one of the ways that (pause) it�s another way that I guess I just kind of realized something that I�ve already kind of realized, which is that � well just like I said, like there are things that, you know, that I can discuss and talk about here with a degree of kind of openness; I can that I wouldn�t be able to with some of my friends.
THERAPIST: Mm-mm.
CLIENT: You know, and (pause) within the realm of things that distinguish this kind of discussion from discussion with my friends; that�s just kind of like another distinguishing feature. [00:12:48]
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: I don�t know. I mean that seems kind of common place to me at this point. I think it was something I struggle with more, or tried to resist a little bit more.
THERAPIST: (chuckle) Oh yeah. Well yeah; tell me. I mean I got the sense that, you know, (pause) yeah, I wonder if you even � I was even thinking about it in terms of like how in some ways, you know, I was just thinking about it when you asked me, �What do you remember from last session?�
And thinking about how that in a way is a kind of � yeah, question. What I�m sensing is, it�s a way of wanting to kind of know me a little bit more, or to know where my heads� at, or you know, who I am more. In a way that like you don�t feel access to. [00:13:57] (pause)
CLIENT: Absolutely; yeah, I mean I guess I (pause) I guess like when I say (pause) that whole dynamic is something that I think I struggled with more. I�m just thinking in my head; I can remember thinking that, and wanting to like get into those that mean special with you a lot more often when you were at your other place on (inaudible at 00:14:28).
So when I think about that, I remember kind of being there. (pause) Like I don�t think I have any less interest. But I guess I just kind of, you know, wedged some space in between the fact I�m still interested in it. And the fact that it�s something to get right from (inaudible at 00:14:53) or something.
Like it doesn�t � it�s something I kind of accepted or something. Or maybe it was because I felt really at loss for what else to talk about, so I was just like, you know, earlier on something that was one more thing that I felt like was, (pause) like a conversation that we couldn�t have or something. I don�t know.
SPEAKER 3: You know now.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: But I felt like right there, I felt like � I didn�t really feel all that, you know, anxious; I didn�t change the trajectory with the conversation, because that was -
THERAPIST: Yeah, no it didn�t seem like that to me.
CLIENT: I felt you were nervous; I felt you were a little anxious.
THERAPIST: Mm-mm. (pause) Yeah, no; yeah, I think -
CLIENT: Right? [00:15:50]
THERAPIST: Well I tend to be � I tend to be more concerned about if � yeah, there�s probably an anxiety about me (pause) being (pause) I guess like, you know, in my mind that in some ways I feel like one side of it, and this is not the whole thing, but one side of it, is what I said, �Yeah, I have this girlfriend.� I thought that�s a lot to tell somebody. In a way, it�s not at all, but in another way, it can be. (pause)
And, you know, it�s not (pause) yeah, I tend to feel like (pause) kind of the tricky kind of quality it can be about how much I talk about myself or not aside, when you start talking about � when your analyst says that they�re anxious and ambivalent about something. (chuckle) It�s kind of a lot to throw at somebody. (pause) I don�t like to do that to people, and they would sign off. [00:17:12]
CLIENT: Yeah, no sure; yeah, yeah. I mean I like in crude way, the problem is, people don�t (pause) I mean I don�t pay to come here anymore, but people don�t pay to come here to hear about what you�re feeling.
THERAPIST: Yeah, right.
CLIENT: I mean in a really crude way.
SPEAKER 3: Now you�ve got to worry about -
CLIENT: I suppose if you really wanted to, you could probably take up a 50-minute session ahead, talking about that stuff if you wanted to.
SPEAKER 3: Sure.
CLIENT: Like I mean � (pause) yeah. I think I agree with you that I think those types of things certainly have the potential to be pretty significant.
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: I mean I�ve often even wondered if like you were gay, or if you were straight, or you know, if you took like a wedding ring off when you came to work something. [00:18:16]
THERAPIST: Mm-mm. (pause)
CLIENT: And I assumed, I mean just in terms of like my thinking, I assumed that you had a girlfriend. (pause)
THERAPIST: Mm-mm.
CLIENT: For what that�s worth. (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, you know, I guess it�s more the not just learning about it, but I was thinking also the shock of me saying it and telling you. (chuckle) You know, I guess that�s what I was concerned � that I realized I said, �Yeah, well -
CLIENT: Do you feel like it�s slipping out?
THERAPIST: No, not really; no. (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah? (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, if anything slipped out, it�s more my response to that I would say. (chuckle)
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Well I thank you for being so conscientious of (pause) how your (inaudible at 00:19:27). And I appreciate that, you know.
THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: But it is really nice to hear you say that about going to see parents.
THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) What; yeah, tell me.
CLIENT: What? It�s just great to hear. I mean I�ve been there talking to you about, you know, just painted pictures; monsters that our parents feel like. That�s where we were talking about last week; we were talking about my dad.
THERAPIST: Mm-mm.
CLIENT: That�s what we were talking about. Now I remember. Because I think I probably characterized him as a monster in the most explicit terms.
SPEAKER 3: Yeah.
CLIENT: That�s it, and then I was (pause) telling, what is it? I was (pause) I was talking a little bit, you know, about how it kind of made me a little uncomfortable to say that stuff. [00:20:42]
THERAPIST: Yes.
CLIENT: Yeah it is, because I realized that I didn�t really show you [where I had my office set up] (ph). You know, my dad�s [far out again] (ph), because they would have professionally ran into him and stuff. And that�s what we talked about.
THERAPIST: Yes.
CLIENT: That really, really lost a place in my memory, but I really was not � didn�t work all that great with me. (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah?
CLIENT: Yeah. Like I even � I don�t even remember � I�m surprised now that I don�t even remember talking to my dad during the week, which I did, but I don�t remember doing it. And feeling like � I feel like that�s so much forgotten; I feel like I�m surprised that I didn�t feel weird talking to him like I�m in training or something.
THERAPIST: Oh; oh.
CLIENT: Well because truly, some things slip out of mind.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, well if you follow that now, what do you make of the forgetting? [00:21:51]
CLIENT: (pause) I left the air feeling a little uncomfortable. I noticed that it�s something that made me uncomfortable to talk about in the terms that I was talking about it. (pause) I think I even told you, �Don�t repeat this.�
THERAPIST: Don�t repeat this; yes. (overlapping voices) No, but why did you need to say it then do you think?
CLIENT: Because I think it was the (pause) it was the idea, (pause) you know it�s more to say quietly, so he doesn�t hear it or something. Like that�s the discomfort, right. Because it�s not thinking that stuff; it�s not like � sometimes I say things, right. And it�s then like the first time I say them out loud, it�s the first time I even think about them in those terms. You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: Like that�s the thing I�ve experienced here; that was very different last week. I had absolutely thought about it in those terms very clearly for a very, very, very long time, you know? But it was literally just like talking about it; saying it out loud that made me feel uncomfortable. [00:23:04]
THERAPIST: Well as you were describing too, there was some way of � I mean one maybe, but I don�t think you mentioned this at the time, but maybe it�s part of what your experience was of betrayal. But I think one thing that you were linking it to was, or we linked it maybe to � or maybe that I kind of wondered about was � well the link was a bit between not wanting him to come around the office, because of the kind of associations they might draw between him and you.
CLIENT: No. I mean very much, you know, another crude analogy, but very much like the friend you�re embarrassed by.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like you know, like the football games when you�re with your other friends or something. Like it�s very much that kind of �
THERAPIST: Because it reflects back on you somehow.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It feels like it does, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah. It really feels like it�s a secret, you know, or something that I�m ashamed of or something I guess.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Well the other thing I was wondering about, that I had kind of wondered, was that if you felt this certainly wasn�t my conscious intention, but if you felt in any way that I was pushing it; I was putting you on the spot. [00:24:22]
CLIENT: Yeah. No, I don�t feel that you were pushing it. I didn�t feel at all like you were steering the conversation in a place that made me feel uncomfortable. And I felt very in control of the conversation. And I wanted to be talking about it, despite the fact that it made me kind of uncomfortable.
But what struck me was that how kind of like surprised you seemed when I said this stuff, you know. I think you said like, �I never heard you talk about it in these terms.� Like it seemed like I will lose you or something.
THERAPIST: Yes.
CLIENT: And like that shocked me, you know.
THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.
CLIENT: It�s like � it�s just one of those moments where I guess I�m (inaudible at 00:25:05).
SPEAKER 3: Yeah.
CLIENT: I�m saying things different than the things that I�m thinking. It�s because the degree and the frequency I think about that stuff, it just kind of surprised me.
THERAPIST: Yeah, kind of like it was like how could you not know this?
CLIENT: Or like how in the hell am I going to talk about this? Yeah, or how could I not mention it? I�m just really surprised, you know.
THERAPIST: Now I remember that too; it was almost like (pause) not in some way almost saying, �What do I need to connect the dots to you?� Or something like that.
CLIENT: Or you know, it wasn�t even like a frustration, it was more just like, �Wow.� I had no idea that that was sort of gapped, in terms of if I�m here painting a picture for you, and I didn�t realize there was that huge blank spot.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: And more than anything, it was like, jeez, if you�re going to like have any ability, or if there�s any possibility that you�ll kind of understand some of the things I think, you got to get that out.
THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so.
CLIENT: That�s just, you know, (inaudible at 00:26:28).
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) I think that�s why I really was kind of asking you for more details, because it occurred to me that I didn�t have a clear picture. (pause) I certainly know, you know, I�ve heard you definitely reference your kind of � the more general kind of category. But not the -
CLIENT: What was the image that I structured that you understood; I�m just curious?
THERAPIST: Yeah, I think when I remembered, and I remember you tell me was, you know, (pause) you would talk about that you felt that he didn�t treat women well; I knew that.
CLIENT: I think that that was like a reaction to my mom or something?
THERAPIST: Oh no, I took it for real.
CLIENT: Really?
THERAPIST: Yeah, but I didn�t know what exactly that � what way he � what form that took is maybe how I put it. [00:27:35]
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: I kind of knew that � and I also felt like I (pause) what else did I � you know, that he had been seen, so people had been cavalier about it. But I didn�t really know much about his attitude � specific attitudes about women, or how he sees them.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, yeah, no, I didn�t see it as like some sort of transferred thing � but, well I don�t -
THERAPIST: This is a new time. [Is it 70] (ph)?
SPEAKER 3: Yes, we started late, so $75 is (overlapping voices)
CLIENT: Yeah, I can actually � I remember now really clearly, and I remember like walking away; I was walking to the train, and I remember thinking to myself like � a lot of times I�ll leave here, and I�ll feel like was talking to you about something; I was trying to describe something, you know, and I was doing it, but it was hard to talk about. Then I�ll be walking to the train, and it just, you know, just comes to your head, like when you�re walking out of a museum or something. [00:28:51]
THERAPIST: Mm-mm.
CLIENT: And I remember just being like, (pause) and in a way, this might just be like a vague generality more so than anything else. But I just feel like (pause) he just � he really would hurt people.
THERAPIST: Mm.
CLIENT: You know, that�s the � I mean I think I seen him do it; like I was talking about last week, (pause) not women, but I think if I kind of tried to distill that, it�s like the essence of it, that�s the (pause) and if my feet and legs are kind of view my dad as like a monster or something; his ability � it� just really hurt people, and seem (pause) unaware, or aware and okay with it, or so phenomenally like ignorant. [00:29:57]
I mean however, you know what I mean? Whatever the process is or something, but like the ability to do that. That�s like (pause) that�s the monster to me.
THERAPIST: Yeah, that he hurts people.
CLIENT: Yeah, you know, and that�s one in the same with the cavalier approach. Just to (pause) yeah. (pause) In a way that like, I feel like he really hurts people sometimes, and (pause) it doesn�t even (pause) seem to be as concerned or worried about the impacts of his actions that as I am every day when I send an e-mail.
And I�m really concerned about how the person I greeted, you know, or for saying or suggesting something, or it sounds like I�m suggesting something I didn�t want. You know what I�m saying. It doesn�t like just � yeah, it seems like (pause) you know, I can imagine where like how � I don�t know how that is (pause) possible, or (pause) I feel like we�re different species or something, you know? [00:31:30] (pause)
THERAPIST: Different species, yeah.
CLIENT: I don�t know. (pause) Like there�s some (pause) just base level difference or something; like the atomic lev � you know, maybe one distinguishes like, (pause) serial killers or something. Maybe I can imagine the most wild scenario; maybe killing somebody, you know what I mean?
But just you could never imagine doing some of the things that these other people have been doing. There�s just some other kind of thing operating that. Like I felt that when I�m disconnected, (pause) and unable to -
THERAPIST: Like that�s not in my blood to do. What he does, is that kind of [00:32:34] (pause)
CLIENT: I guess. Yeah, I guess I�m just trying to say I don�t (pause) you know what I�m saying, like I want to be different from that. Maybe it�s not even that, but we are different, but like that�s something I would want to be.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: So incredibly different from or something. You know? (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, well that too would seem like a difference. (pause) As much as � like this way, you kind of get out is in some ways, you see him as not really (modeling) (ph) who he is and what he�s done.
CLIENT: I mean that�s just like (pause) that�s like a kid who doesn�t clean up after himself or something, you know? (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, say what it isn�t.
CLIENT: It�s the different magnitude.
THERAPIST: Oh. (pause)
CLIENT: It�s a � (pause) yeah, very different.
THERAPIST: It�s a lot deeper to you than that. Yeah. [00:33:48] (pause)
CLIENT: Yeah, I mean I guess in a way. (overlapping voices)
THERAPIST: The (callus) (ph) -
CLIENT: The way I�m feeling, just the way that I view it, I guess from my perspective maybe like it�s like objectively like it happens in (origins) (ph).
THERAPIST: Okay. (inaudible at 00:34:05)
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: [Imagine to admit] (ph).
THERAPIST: His ability to hurt and not -
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But it does hurt. (pause)
CLIENT: And then I guess I feel like it�s just a (pause) I guess it�s something I just could never see myself (pause) like reconciling, you know? (pause) I just don�t � I just feel like it�s a wedge, that I just don�t know that I could ever genuinely kind of make room for or like accept. It�s just this (creature�s) (ph) personality � his character or something. You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Mm-mm.
CLIENT: I really don�t know, but (pause) yeah I mean I guess it seems like kind of (inaudible at 00:35:06), you know, to kind of an obstacle to like (pause) I don�t know, like a genuine kind of connection about it. [00:35:16]
THERAPIST: I see; yeah, no I mean it (infects) (ph) this sort of sense that you could relate to him, and he could relate to you in this way?
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I could try, you know, even if I tried � and in some ways, you know, I want to, because it if it only because it were just me, it�s just so much easier. And there would be like a benefit to be able to just (pause) get along with me. Or not be bothered by some of that stuff.
If I could I would, because it would just make things so much easier. (pause) But yeah � (pause) I guess it partially makes me feel uncomfortable talking about it a lot, because then I feel like I�m (pause) I mean for some reason in the past, like years ago, even after my parents split up and were in different houses, I just kind of had this script for talking about parents that was really fucking smooth, you know. And it was just very kind of appreciative and (pause) this nuance in some ways. �Yeah my parents split up, but you know, (pause) they really went out the way to not make it any worse than they had to.� I just really kind of (inaudible at 00:37:11).
That just seemed to kind of fit really neatly with the way I related to my parents at the time, which was very much kind of to keep it that way. I related to my parents, you know, as if that was the reality. It was, but that was � and with something like that, you would have felt (inaudible at 00:37:39) different. That was just kind of the way that I thought about it, and that was just my reality with them.
You know, I genuinely didn�t really often think that I was angry at them or anything, and I think I believed some of those things kind of. (pause) But like doing it to the extent that I kind of like talk about it differently. It seems to make it more difficult to be able to (pause) relate to like talk to my dad.
Even like, I think one of the reasons I would be uncomfortable, apart from just the fact that I mean my dad would find out, but telling a lot of people that that�s why I felt really bad. Then I would feel really unprincipled when I pick up the phone when he called, and I had the conversations with him that I do, and that I will continue to. You know? [00:38:45] (pause)
Like if I�m not talking about that stuff, it preserves my ability to actually just have some (pause) immune superficial level of interaction.
THERAPIST: I see, that breaks that you feel might be at risk at breaking down if you talk. (overlapping voices)
CLIENT: That�s what it � I feel like that�s at risk.
THERAPIST: I see. Yeah, what would happen? Like if you�re talking about it, and it�s been said, (pause) what changes then in when you�re talking to him, and not realize its perspective? (pause) What changes in your mind about then talking to him? (pause)
CLIENT: Well, I guess that like in the terms that I put it in last week, (pause) there seems to just be like only one like not even logical conclusion, but just even one like conceivable conclusion. Which is you don�t accept that; you don�t make room for that; you don�t be complacent. And you don�t associate with that; you don�t blend even like complicit with that, you know what I mean? [00:40:14] (pause)
I don�t know if it�s like when I say to people that I think that they�re going to expect that of me. And then they�re going to know that I think that, then if they see me talking to him, they�re going to know that I�m � they�re going to infer from that I think logically. Because if I was seeing someone do this, and I was cool stuff or whatever, you know. I don�t know.
THERAPIST: Oh I see. (overlapping voices)
CLIENT: I don�t know. If I had friend, and he told me, but yet with my friend, it�s like, you know, this kid that I befriended from work is so (racist) (ph), you know what I mean? Yeah, it�s like �I�m going to go hang out, you want to come?� I don�t know, it just seems so obvious. You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: I see. Yes; yeah, yeah, yeah.
CLIENT: I don�t know if it�s the fact the I don�t know if people would come to that conclusion, or if I ever get you to think that, or if I feel like it�s some part of me to like ignore, or something. I don�t know. [00:41:22]
THERAPIST: Well I think in some way maybe you�re sort of saying, it can make you feel like you�re guilty by association, in a real literal sense. You feel like if I�m not saying anything, and I�m trying to relate to it, does that � what does that mean of me? Am I in some way -
CLIENT: Complicit.
THERAPIST: Complicit, but guilty too. Yeah, doing something that -
CLIENT: Am I any different?
THERAPIST: I see, I see.
CLIENT: Like if I can actually just be (pause) just be in the presence of it, and just (smile) (ph); I don�t know.
THERAPIST: How much � does that make you a monster in a way? Or some (overlapping voices)
CLIENT: It seems on some level inconsistent with the fact that I think that we are so (pause) like the way that I described it a few minutes ago, like a different species or something. You know, it�s not consistent with the way that I act towards him. (pause) Because we seem like really good friends. (pause) And to some extent those things seem to kind of not fit with each other somewhere. You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause)
CLIENT: And as I�m saying that, it seems like I�m just thinking about it as I hear myself say it. (pause) It�s like (inaudible at 00:42:56) service to like him in a way. Even (pause) it�s all over-serving the possibility of a relationship with him. Which seems even more (pause) like insane, or just completely irrational.
THERAPIST: Yeah, how so?
CLIENT: I mean I recognize that I feel these things on some level, but then actually acknowledge this (inaudible at 00:43:00) desire to that�s apparently stronger than those feelings of disgust at him, such that I would have been (inaudible at 00:43:39) kind of. You know, make them secondary in terms of like importance. Does that make sense?
THERAPIST: Say that last part again.
CLIENT: Like that would you know, I�ve fought with things that I�ve said to him.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: But the fact that I would think those things and acknowledge them, and say these are x amount important, but then say � but there�s something that�s, you know, x + 1 important to me in actually maintaining a relationship with him.
THERAPIST: Oh yeah.
CLIENT: But then making those concerns a (subserve) (ph) to me. It just like -
THERAPIST: The former being subservient to the latter.
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Like (pause) just push it to the side.
THERAPIST: It kind of makes you feel, you know, what�s it saying about you that -
CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. I don�t know.
THERAPIST: I got it. What does that mean to you? What does that say to you? (pause) What does that mean to you? [00:44:40] (pause)
CLIENT: What it means to what I feel, or what it means to me is that�s the that�s the like depressive, just paralyzing crappy double (bind) (ph) that just seems to just like epitomize parents. Like your ability to do that.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Like I don�t know anybody else that would be about to do that to somebody.
THERAPIST: Oh I see.
CLIENT: I�ve seen that control -
THERAPIST: The power in a way of a parent?
CLIENT: The ability to have like a degree of (pause) anger, and (pause) just so mad at somebody more than you�ve ever felt mad at somebody. But then to have this thing called love for your parents or whatever to just kind of (pause) contain it, you know?
THERAPIST: Mm-mm. [00:45:48]
CLIENT: Like in (pause) I don�t know. I remember when -
THERAPIST: Yeah, what, what?
CLIENT: I just remember when my friend Eric; his dad was a horrible alcoholic, and you know, killing himself.
THERAPIST: Wow, I didn�t know that. Did you tell me that?
CLIENT: I � probably not. (pause) Really, really that it�s the reason his parents split up. (pause) He was really just the sort of guy, that just had like demons or something in his system; horrible for what Eric just had to watch him drink his job away; his money away; his family away. You know he was just literally killing himself.
THERAPIST: Oh he didn�t � he didn�t literally kill himself?
CLIENT: Not yet.
THERAPIST: Oh okay. I thought he actually did. (overlapping voices)
CLIENT: Eric�s had to watch this.
THERAPIST: I see.
CLIENT: I just remember one time he said how angry he was that he just couldn�t stop caring about him. You know? I don�t know, and just seems like it resonated with me.
THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, that�s exactly what you�re talking about.
CLIENT: You know, it�s just like, like only a parent can (pause) do that. (pause) And it seems to be a situation with no resolution to it. [00:47:12] (pause)
THERAPIST: No resolution.
CLIENT: There�s no, like I think with the example of Eric is such a good answer, is that he, you know, his dad�s going to keep drinking until he kills himself. Like there�s no good way out there. You know what I mean? It�s just like I said to you, like I�ve often thought that the only two options with me and my dad are like the (inaudible at 00:47:44), or like just completely destroy the connection that I have with him. You know, it�s just two bad options, neither of which feels very good.
THERAPIST: Yeah, but in spite of yourself, you can�t stop caring about the relationship.
CLIENT: That�s the kind of the aspect which makes it crappy no matter where you go. Because if it wasn�t for that, then you just cut the ties, just like I probably have (inaudible at 00:48:21) other kinds of people that I thought were, you know, (inaudible at 00:48:25) people. (pause)
THERAPIST: Yeah, I hear it, yeah, in that you � then how � yeah, it�s kind of, well then how do you � how do you live in this relationship with him having both these experiences? Especially when it sounds like you�re sort of saying the contemptible part makes you feel like you shouldn�t have anything to do with him. Or I don�t� want to have anything to do with him.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Shouldn�t and don�t want to -
CLIENT: And with anybody else, I wouldn�t. (pause)
THERAPIST: Well it�s making me think back to your comment about being relieved that you heard me saying something about ambivalence about going out to see my girlfriend�s parents. (pause) I wonder if (chuckle) [00:49:29] (pause)
CLIENT: I�d like to believe that that is � I look for evidence everywhere that this kind of way that I�ve come to understand my relationship with my dad is like some kind of just (pause) almost just like an (edible) (ph) defining feature of what the dynamics between my children are damaged or something. You know if that plays out in different or something. You know what I mean?
Maybe because then, it�s not my fault, you know, it�s not that it was something I walked into.
THERAPIST: Because you�re sort of saying what? That this feels horrible, that you�ve -
CLIENT: Yeah. And I just feel like no matter � I don�t feel like there�s anywhere that I can go where I feel like happy with myself, but because then even if I�m like really upset about it afterwards, I�m still just kind of just expending. [00:50:33] (overlapping voices)
THERAPIST: I got you.
CLIENT: You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: Yeah. Now let�s see, let�s see. So if like it�s kind of considered a part of human -
CLIENT: If it wasn�t something I created, or wasn�t something that I -
THERAPIST: That you�re doing -
CLIENT: that other people seem to get out of it or something. I don�t know, it�s more -
THERAPIST: Well I think yeah, and sort of seeing Eric, or seeing Eric and hearing Eric�s take on it, it kind of affirms something of the universality -
CLIENT: Yeah, and then you kind of just feel like sometimes even in smaller ways. I love it when people say (pause)
THERAPIST: Oh yeah.
CLIENT: I hate it when I hear people say that he loves me. (chuckle)
THERAPIST: Yeah, well it also kind of brings up the whole � some relevance about your mom � your mom�s side of the family. (pause) Gosh even your own feelings about your mom; (chuckle) how they can become more tricky to kind of have another side to it. You know, I was thinking, are you supposed to this extended family of your mother�s in some way? Like if that�s what normal is, and you see your cousins do it, well how complicated then are feelings about your father or mother? [00:51:54]
CLIENT: Yeah, that�s kind of the exact converse reaction that I have.
THERAPIST: Yes. That�s right. What�s wrong with � yeah, why, yeah � a feeling of guilt about that. You�re not that.
CLIENT: Yeah, that I�m �yeah.
THERAPIST: Or you are the way you are. (pause) (overlapping voices) (sigh)
CLIENT: All right.
THERAPIST: All right.
CLIENT: 6:10 work for you, or 6:15 better?
THERAPIST: 6:10�s usually just fine.
CLIENT: Yeah, cool. I�ll tell you if it�s a problem.
THERAPIST: No, it works well. You�re worried that it might not, but I got it.
CLIENT: It works okay with you?
THERAPIST: Yeah. It works just fine.
CLIENT: Oh good.
THERAPIST: All right, I�ll see you next week.
CLIENT: Next week, yeah. Good; thanks.
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