TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(pause 00:00:00 � 00:01:42)

CLIENT: I�m not sure where to begin.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

CLIENT: (pause 00:01:45 00:02:48) I guess this is how it works. I gather I�m late. I�m just sort of rushing to get things out or actually on time. Can�t think of anything to say.

THERAPIST: Yeah. How is it being on time?

CLIENT: I don�t�(laughter) I�m just disoriented. I can�t even (inaudible) for me to make up for lost time. (pause 00:03:16 00:03:21) I surprise myself. (pause 00:03:21 00:03:26) It would be nice. It�d be nice to be able to order things sort of�like plan to do X at a certain time. Do it at that time. (pause 00:03:34 00:03:38) I think I want to cultivate that habit. Maybe read some William James. (pause 00:03:43 00:03:48) Which is sort of�(pause 00:03:49 00:04:03) plan things and do them.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:04:04 00:04:25) Yeah. It reminds me of what we were talking about last week about finding like kind of an engine to kind of move you in some direction. Something about getting here on time or something that�s not as�it�s different than arriving late and feeling, �Okay. Well, that�s the balance.� (pause 00:04:46 00:04:51) Something about being on time and planned, huh? (pause 00:04:57 00:05:02) Yeah. It just so happens I have (inaudible). (pause 00:05:04 00:05:18) Yeah. I mean maybe that�s the whole feeling of reacting things rather than�

CLIENT: (pause 00:05:22 00:05:44) Some of the roads on Martha�s Vineyard�they�re not really roads. But just like woods.

THERAPIST: What were you looking? Oh, they�re lights scratched up.

CLIENT: (pause 00:05:53 00:05:57) That�s from�I didn�t want to take like a five-mile detour on my bike in the middle of the day. So I took this path, but this one wasn�t on the map. But it went directly in the direction I wanted to go. So I decided to go one mile down this straight path or go like five miles around. So I just drove down the path. But the path, after about half a mile, turned into�it just said like, �Warning.� Something like�it said, �This is the shooting range. And if you�re not accompanied by someone, you�re in grave danger,� or something. Or like this is a shooting club land. So don�t come here unless you�re accompanied by someone. (inaudible)

But I just�I was tired, so I went through. I kept walking. And then the sort of openness turned into a�this little bushy. So I was just walking my bike through. And the bushiness turned into like wilderness. And the wilderness turned into like really thick, sort of woody plants. But I wasn�t turning back then because I had gone like a couple miles. Dirt road that you can�t really ride a bike on. And it�s hot. I was sunburned. I was just going (inaudible 00:07:33). So that was really harsh. I kept getting disoriented. I ended up taking my phone (inaudible). I had kept it off most of the day to conserve battery because I need to take pictures with it. But I was stuck in that woods�not stuck. But struggling through that woods for probably an hour. It was just�(pause 00:07:59 00:08:04) amazing how quickly you can get lost when you�re surrounded on all sides. Or like not lost but at least disoriented and think you�re going towards the road. But you�re actually moving this direction.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:08:16 00:08:21) Yeah. It makes me think of being out of contact. Like as if you�re sort of saying, �I didn�t listen to the song. I went by myself and got really lost.� And saying something about what it is like when you�re�when you�re feeling very isolated.

CLIENT: (pause 00:08:39 00:08:43) My thought at the time was definitely I should stick with what you know.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:08:46 00:09:20) You encountered a wood plant. Wooden plant. What�d you call it? Wood plant.

CLIENT: Wooden plants. I don�t know what they were. I guess you could call them brackets or�eventually there were thorns too. But luckily, those weren�t too (inaudible).

THERAPIST: (pause 00:09:37 00:09:43) What�d you get when you involve yourself in a plant. With a plant.

CLIENT: (inaudible), I guess. What do you get when you involve yourself with a plant? What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I was just thinking about me last night planting. Something allusion to that.

C: About last night? [00:09:59]

THERAPIST: Huh?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: No. An allusion to getting involved with a plant. (laughter)

CLIENT: (pause 00:10:07 00:10:13) What? The fact that I�m all scratched u or something?

THERAPIST: Scratched up. Yeah. (laughter) You got scratched up and hit hard by it, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe it�s a good match for me at this point. I don�t know. (inaudible). So, yeah. Vicious.

THERAPIST: Vicious (inaudible). Thorns.

CLIENT: (pause 00:10:34 00:10:48) I stayed with my relatives down there. Actually, I found out my dad was on Hamptons the same night I was on the island. So that was kind of funny. So I was staying with my�I guess it�s my aunt�s house. But I have two cousins there that are pretty old. One of them I used to live with. He�s like stable. He runs the network for company. Computer company. He owns some land, but he moved into the house. His parents are sometimes there. Most of the time not. And he�s like 30 something. It�s not like what you�d picture when you think of someone who lives with their parents. It�s more like he lives in the house. His parents are these sometimes. He has this big setup downstairs and upstairs. In the back. (inaudible). (pause 00:11:45 00:11:50) (inaudible). But I was (inaudible) most of the time. Yeah.

[00:12:00] So, the thing is for tomorrow, I have some random stuff. Like I have to do gardening with someone I live with. I also have a cousin, who I like a lot. Some of the others that I�just finished taking the bar to be a patent attorney. He asked to go out for drinks or something since he�s out here which I should oblige. But I also have schoolwork that I have to do. And it�s the kind of stuff I�m not sure how much time it will take. And it�s highly dependent on me being able to focus in the time that I�m working on it. Which, in terms of (inaudible), like a bad percentage, I�m not that good at it.

THERAPIST: Because it kind of like�what are they? Is it like a distraction you from doing work (inaudible)?

CLIENT: [00:12:57] Yeah. I mean if I�I think if I masturbate or if I play a video game to start the day, the rest of the day kind of goes to shit. Like just I�m easily�I just jump at anything to stop working. But I don�t think not doing those things is that helpful either. It�s more like I�m sludging. It�s like dragging a plow through muck or something. (inaudible) temptation of some sort of quick pleasure from distractions that�s almost over because it�s constant. (pause 00:13:29 00:13:38) I was thinking about reading a moment ago because I read very slowly. And I�m wondering if I had a purpose for the reading whether I�d read more quickly. I don�t know though. (pause 00:13:46 00:13:50) I�d like to read a lot of things, but I read terribly slowly. Like ten pages an hour is a good rate for me.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. Just kind of sludge through it. (inaudible).

CLIENT: (inaudible) slowly. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Distracted?

CLIENT: If I�m really reading it, I�ll think of things and then I�ll follow up those thoughts and maybe write something down. Yeah. I don�t necessarily follow the reader�s intent. Like I wouldn�t follow�or the writer (inaudible). Like I wouldn�t follow the sign. I�m not always paying attention to what the person is writing or trying to say. I�m taking what they�re saying and deriving something from it. So if this is true, then this is probably also true or could this be true? Or is this what he�s going to say next? Or this?

THERAPIST: (pause 00:14:44 00:14:56) It�s like akin to not following the signs?

CLIENT: What�s that?

THERAPIST: Did you say it�s like similar to not following the signs? Like�

CLIENT: Yeah. There�s something (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Or being accompanied by the writer down his or her path. In other works, like they want you to go down this line and you�re kind of like, �Oh, well, I�ll go. I�ll go back and forth on that path.�

CLIENT: Yeah. They�re tough to follow out. That works out okay with (inaudible). (pause 00:15:30 00:15:43) I don�t trust them to explain everything. I have to think about it being the same. (pause 00:15:47 00:15:52) Probably not that unusual. (pause 00:15:53 00:16:49) Oh, yeah. (pause 00:16:50 00:16:54) So my cousin Hermione getting married to a guy who needs a visa. And my sister sent me a Facebook message asking me if I was going to the party. And I said, �I don�t know.� And she said, �Well, Hermione wanted me to ask you if you were going.� And so I don�t know what that means.

THERAPIST: Oh, and not the cousin asked you?

CLIENT: Well, the one who�s getting married asked me if I was going.

THERAPIST: Oh, I thought was getting Hermione married?

CLIENT: Rue (ph). Yeah. So Hermione asked Sally, who is my sister.

THERAPIST: Sally. Okay. (crosstalk).

CLIENT: So she asked Sally to ask me if I was going. And it�s possible. I kind of wanted to threaten�wanted to threaten that I wouldn�t go. Or make some sort of sardonic remark relating back to my experience dancing with them. But I�

THERAPIST: Yeah. What did you have the thought to say?

CLIENT: Well, something like, �Do they want me there so I can make them feel good by how bad I dance,� or something like that. (laughter) I don�t know. Because I (pause 00:18:05 00:18:11) felt like a facilitator, I guess.

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: I think I concealed my regret pretty well. Gosh. It�s interesting to me. There was also something unusual that happened which was�so I really like my cousin, Hermione. And I don�t know how much she�s changed, but she used to be a very�like a perfect young girl. And there was a period when I really liked her and after that dancing incident which I first came here with where my phone kept dialing her by accident. So like I�d pull my phone out of my pocket and it would be calling her. This happened like ten times. And I�d just hang up. (laughter) But like from her point of view, she doesn�t know what happened. And it�s also very difficult to explain because it was�I just had her in the�do you have that favorites bar for your�

THERAPIST: [00:19:08] On your iPhone?

CLIENT: Right. So there are certain people who can calm me at night or any time. And just where she was placed on that because it was on the corner of the phone, the favorites bar and wherever her name was, it just kept dialing it randomly. So I don�t know. I�m always afraid this sort of�this attraction. If I�m attracted to somebody it will be discovered. It�s like this�I think men have a sort of a predatory�a good friend of mine put it a good way when he said, �Women want to have sex possibly even more than men do,� but I think men have a sort of a predatory or a real searching sexuality. That�s not really�you can�t mitigate it.

[00:20:00] You can disguise it, but it�s always there. And it feels�sometimes�at good times, it feels sort of natural to me. It feels not wholesome but 00:20:00 (inaudible). Something. It feels young and on the verge of blossoming. This sort of ceaseless desire. And whatever that is, it�s combined with like a constant fear that it will be discovered. Probably what�s his name? Freud has something to say about that. But it�s the desire and then there�s constant�if other people are looking, are they seeing what I want? And if they can see what I want, it somehow jeopardizes my position. Yeah.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: I don�t know. (pause 00:21:06 00:21:11)

THERAPIST: I don�t think the prey knows that the predator spots the predator coming?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. (pause 00:21:16 00:21:24) Yeah. That�s not so great. I mean my other exploits�I�ve realized a few of the girls I�ve taken from the Quaker meeting. I mean I think I�they�re kind of isolated like me. But I could observe that they were sort of lonely. (pause 00:21:52 00:21:57) Getting to be in their 30s. Early 30s maybe. And so probably wanting more companionship than I observe they can. (pause 00:22:07 00:22:14) And so one it was not enjoyable. The other wouldn�t have sex with me. But I don�t think it was�I think I was upset at that because I recognized how isolated they were. And I felt like they should (pause 00:22:34 00:22:37) accept whatever I was offering.

THERAPIST: Take the opportunity?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause 00:22:40 00:22:43) So that�s something that ties into being predatory. But I don�t think that�s laudable anyway. I�ve only just realized it a few weeks ago that I don�t think it�s a good thing to do.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:22:56 00:23:07) Well, I mean do you experience that? Do you experience desire that you have to hide from people?

CLIENT: (pause 00:23:11 00:23:14) You mean like�how do you mean? Like do I need to hide feelings of desire?

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking�I think in a way it opens up a vulnerability. And I think for you what you�re getting at is that there�s something kind of�you�re saying there�s something that felt very nascent as you were pointing at something. Kind of it sounded more pure but then it can kind of have a�lead to a predatory kind of�a more darker.

CLIENT: I just think that they�re not necessarily�I think it indicates whether it�s predatory which those are different things. I mean if it�s nascent or it�s predatory they�re characteristically different. They�re the same sort of�they come from the same place, but they�re different I think. Especially if I�ve been watching pornography or something, I�m more inclined towards a predatory�just like a wolf licking it�s lips for kind of a�almost a cartoonish fascination with anatomy. And (pause 00:24:27 00:24:31) there�s some�the other one I�m talking about is a secret appeal towards complicit with other human beings. (pause 00:24:38 00:24:44) That�s a pretty good way of putting it.

THERAPIST: Huh. (pause 00:24:45 00:24:54) Well, you need to say more. (laughter) Secret appeal towards complicity. (pause 00:24:58 00:25:03) And that one you�re feeling inclined to disguise, but it�s more playfully I suppose. Like a kind of that feeling you had with the�I�m forgetting her name.

CLIENT: Oh, Iris?

THERAPIST: Erin. Or Hermione?

CLIENT: I think at moments. Oh, Hermione definitely. Absolutely with Hermione, Yeah. Yeah. She�s gotten older though.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:25:29 00:25:36) What about her getting older?

CLIENT: (pause 00:25:36 00:25:42) Well, there was an innocence to it that made her incredibly attractive. (pause 00:25:44 00:25:50) It�s a principles. (pause 00:25:51 00:26:00) A supple righteousness that she sort of (laughter) brought to conversations. (pause 00:26:07 00:26:17) It�s interesting too. I mean she�s�I think her mother�after she went to Bangladesh, I think her mother sort of took her back under her wing. She was 22 or 20 or something. And since then, I guess she�s been following a path. Some sort of medical path. Could be animal medicine. It could be neurobiology. I�m not sure. But in any case, it�s funny to think her�she is probably more secure than I am. (pause 00:26:44 00:26:50) It�s interesting. Me going to her party or not going.

I don�t know. I�m not sure because of those random phone calls. My lack of real contact with her. I don�t know what she feels towards me. So I mean that�s a fair discovery too. I mean there especially pronounced because I know her family. I have relationships�familial relationships with her family. And so if they discovered I liked their daughter it would complicate things. My cousin. Her sister. Hermione�s sister also said she wanted me to go to the party for some reason. Or she was looking forward to seeing me. I�m not sure why I�m a subject of interest. But I intend to ask my sister.

THERAPIST: About?

CLIENT: Oh, why�

THERAPIST: Hermione wants you to be there?

CLIENT: Yeah. Why it�s important. I mean maybe it�s important�she would behave differently if I wasn�t there or something. I don�t know.

THERAPIST: [00:28:02] Or what her desire is for you being there.

CLIENT: My sister? Or Hermione?

THERAPIST: Hermione.

CLIENT: If she has one. I don�t know. Maybe she doesn�t want me to be there and she just wants to know. I don�t know. (pause 00:28:16 00:28:19) I think my impression is that she is someone who would go along with a marriage proposal. (pause 00:28:26 00:28:34) I�m not sure where I�m going with that. I just got like flagged saying like it sounds crazy. But I just�my impression is that she�s the one who would go along with a marriage proposal. As in, she wouldn�t hurt the person she�s been with by saying no. But at the same time, they�re not having a public wedding. They�re just sort of�they�re having a pretty private ceremony and then a party afterwards.

And the real reason they�re having it at the time they are is because Darius, her boyfriend�s citizenship�or like his visa expires or some shit. (pause 00:29:14 00:29:20) Here too. I mean because I was the one�I thought when she first asked me out to go dancing that it would just be me and her with her friends which would be incredible. A bunch of young girls. But it turned out to be her and this guy she had met. Darius. (pause 00:29:38 00:29:45) There�s some sort of (inaudible) there where she asked me to go with them dancing. And now she might want me to be in her wedding party. (pause 00:29:56 00:30:03) It�s very nice. Nice family.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:30:05 00:30:19) I�m struck by sort of the�like kind of like something about her innocence formally. Or is being her cousin�is that important to you? Knowing her in a kind of familial way?

CLIENT: I mean some vague incest is not appealing. I don�t think. But the fact that I knew her�I have an intimacy with her based on my past experience.

THERAPIST: That�s what I�m more meaning.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think being family isn�t. (laughter)

THERAPIST: (pause 00:30:52 00:31:09) Were you close as children?

CLIENT: I used to wreck her�like she would build these nice villages out of like moss and stuff. Like utopias and I just destroyed them. (laughter) And then she�d cry.

THERAPIST: What does that say?

CLIENT: I think that�s like my earliest memory of her is she build this moss village. And then I destroyed it with like two of my peers. And she cried. And then her mother came and got really upset. She understood. I think when we�I don�t know about that. (pause 00:31:45 00:31:50) Yeah. There�s from there.

THERAPIST: What were�something there?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don�t know. I don�t know how to say it. (pause 00:32:01 00:32:08) And too we connected when I had this experience with Christina. The girl I knew who was Kenyan. Who I saw on a park bench with another guy. You remember, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Of course. Yeah.

CLIENT: (inaudible) her.

THERAPIST: I thought you were going back to your childhood.

CLIENT: So after that we sort of connected because she had come back from Bangladesh. (pause 00:32:40 00:32:46) I wouldn�t say connected. It�s more like it was affinity. This some sort of commonality based on our discussions. And she liked the songs I sang. So, it�s nice. (pause 00:33:00 00:33:05) I�m not describing a relationship so much as a vague longing. But Christina has since become a porn star.

THERAPIST: Christina is?

CLIENT: The girl.

THERAPIST: The Kenyan?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She�s become a porn star?

CLIENT: I don�t know the technical star. But she�s�

THERAPIST: Making a living in the adult industry.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:33:32 00:33:39) What are your thoughts? Or how did you find out?

CLIENT: (laughter) By watching porn.

THERAPIST: And you saw her?

CLIENT: Yeah. I did.

THERAPIST: You came across her?

CLIENT: Yeah. And the thing is�

THERAPIST: Did she use her name too?

CLIENT: No. It�s not her real name.

THERAPIST: But you could tell?

CLIENT: [00:33:57] So I mean at this point from your point of view, this could be something that�s like just subjective on my part. But the fact is through knowing Christina it was�part of my restraint with her�even though she would come over and (inaudible) and dress really gaudily. Or I don�t know what the word is. But with like fake fur, things around her neck, and stuff. (pause 00:34:28 00:34:33) She was somehow made to be used sexually. It�s like she was�that was what she was. She had the sort of French part to her. And (pause 00:34:44 00:34:51) something about (laughter) the way she behaved. Everything about it was (pause 00:34:57 00:35:04)�it was�she was just very sexual. She had a sexual magnetism. The way she walked. The way she talked. The way she conducted herself. It was no pedestrian (pause 00:35:22 00:35:26) composure. It was a professional (pause 00:35:28 00:35:33) sex lady. I don�t know how else to put it. And I have since concluded I don�t think she was 19 when I met her. That�s just what�that�s the best thing to say.

THERAPIST: Oh, that�s what she would say. She was 19.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think she was probably 22. I was 23 or so at the time. (pause 00:35:51 00:35:59) I could be wrong. But I don�t think I am. Because I haven�t been in actual contact with her for three years or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But you were thinking of her in the context of Hermione and what�

CLIENT: Well, after I was sort of hurt by her, I�or I�well, you could say I was hurt by her or I distanced myself from her very starkly. (pause 00:36:25 00:36:30) I could connect with some experience of Hermione�s because I could talk about a sort of an attraction that defied logic. A (pause 00:36:48 00:36:57) sort of a sub rational affinity or a (pause 00:37:02 00:37:07) compulsion to stay with or stay by people who weren�t really very good for you. (pause 00:37:15 00:37:20) Or weren�t good for (inaudible). But she had some experience in Bangladesh with a guy I think who wasn�t very good.

THERAPIST: Hermione had it?

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. But I was very concerned.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:37:33 00:37:38) Yeah. It makes me think of (pause 00:37:39 00:37:46) with (pause 00:37:45 00:37:49)�what�s her name again?

CLIENT: Christina?

THERAPIST: Felicia. With : Christina, that it seemed like you were looking for something almost�what is the word? Virtiginal (ph).

CLIENT: What�s that? Virginal? (laughter)

THERAPIST: Yeah. It�s virginal I think. And but pure or innocent. And yet she was�it was as if�I was thinking about the concept of a shadow in that she led with her sexuality. But in some way you were trying to link up with a more pure, innocent side of her and yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think so.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:38:33 00:38:37) But somehow I think that kind of occurs when you�re with Hermione more.

CLIENT: Yeah. It does. Yep.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:38:43 00:38:59) It makes me think of trauma and (pause 00:39:03 00:39:08)�maybe it�s a bias because I heard of�about porn. Adult industry. But I was thinking about how (pause 00:39:15 00:39:20)�when it�s sort of kind of a precocious sexuality emerges when a certain�when tenderness and innocence is mistaken for sexual interest from a child or from anyone.

CLIENT: (pause 00:39:36 00:39:41) Tenderness and innocence is mistaken for?

THERAPIST: Like a child that�s like looking for�for something like from an adult. A tenderness or a loving hug or affection is mistaken for sexual. And when that happens to kids and they end up becoming almost hyper�one things that I was thinking become hyper sexualized like that. And I was thinking some way this Christina �that you sense in something some innocence in her that you were trying to�

CLIENT: I was trying to protect it. Yeah. That�s what I tried to give back at least. I also (laughter) although I don�t know. I don�t want disguise an aptitude�like a sexual opportunities were right there for someone who was very, very attractive. And not just physically. It was character.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:40:36 00:40:49) But you didn�t want that. Is that what you�re getting at?

CLIENT: I think so. You want something else. It was right there and I wanted something else to it. Maybe it�s the virginal 00:41:00 quality you�re talking about. There was no feeling to it. It was. It was just available. It would be like grabbing a candy bar at a convenience store. And I wasn�t�I mean she was on the couch next to me at one point (laughter) and I keep like get up. Be like, �Well, let�s watch a movie,� or something. She�s like, �No.� I don�t know.

THERAPIST: [00:41:26] She might have wanted a more kind of a predatory�a predator to kind of capture and take her. Is that?

CLIENT: I think so. Yeah. I mean I�ve expressed discomfort at the fact about when women reach that point where they just want something from me. They want me to take control I think and not seize them or whatever. (pause 00:41:47 00:41:55) Yeah. That�s what I need to prove is that�I mean she had been abused by her boss in some way. I still don�t understand that�what was going on there. Anyway, but I wanted to show her that someone could give her something and sort of be kind to her without asking anything. So I did. I took her around and bought her some stuff and brought her home just left her at home. Kissed her on the cheek and that was that. It was very good. But I mean she was what she was.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:42:31 00:42:39) That being the level on which you�you wanted to connect with her.

CLIENT: I guess. Yeah. And the thing that was hurtful I guess is that that�s not what she wanted I don�t think. Or that wasn�t�if that was valuable to her, it was not sufficiently valuable to exclude the other sexual opportunities that she had. And through those opportunities, I�m sure she derived some other financial gain or�I mean she would work it out with who she was with I think.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:43:16 00:43:21) She retreated from like kind of an offer for a more caring (pause 00:43:25 00:43:32)�that kind of (pause 00:43:32 00:43:36)�

CLIENT: Paternalistic?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She wanted to become kind of like a�instead kind of the exploited and the exploiter. I mean I don�t know what she was up to with these guys getting the�but I was thinking some way where�a retreat from that kind of offer that you were giving her.

CLIENT: [00:44:00] Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don�t know what was going on in her head.

CLIENT: Sure. Though the offer is�I mean after that I think she may have been genuinely excited to see me. Saw me on the bench. But it wasn�t something she could easily pursue.

THERAPIST: That�s what I meant.

CLIENT: Yeah. It�s not something she could turn around or hold or�but at the same time she never�she had two days there to come over and visit or something. But it was pretty close. It was not as though I made myself too accessible I guess. (pause 00:44:35 00:44:39) But I remember one time I�yeah. Surely I wasn�t here the whole time. I was conflicted most of the time with her. (pause 00:44:46 00:44:52) I�m not aware how this happened, but I think I picked her out. And (pause 00:44:57 00:45:03) (inaudible) all kinds of stuff. (pause 00:45:04 00:45:08) I picked her up once and I (background noise). (pause 00:45:13 00:45:21) Before or after. (pause 00:45:22 00:45:34) Yeah. After. (pause 00:45:35 00:45:44) But I think this was before I picked her up. She was on the phone with her boss. The one she worked with. And she was lying to him about where she was. And so while she was doing this I started feeling up her leg and stuff because she couldn�t really say or squeal or anything because she was lying to her boss, boyfriend, on the phone. And I was doing this while driving 40 or 50 miles an hour. And so I wasn�t completely pure in�yeah. In sort of protecting her or anything.

I remember I took her to Harvard that�that crazy building at Harvard. I took her up there to a balcony. She said something like, �Nobody else would take me here.� She was interested. She wanted to go to Brown or Harvard or something. She was like, �Do you think I would get into Harvard? Do you think I can get into Brown?� Maybe. Very ambitious. �But nobody else would take me here.� And then she made another call to lie to her boyfriend or whoever (inaudible 00:46:55) with. I mean she made that call because I think we were going to make out at that point or do something. But that wasn�t acceptable to me on some level. I didn�t want to be part of a lie. So I just left. I left at that moment. And part of it too was I probably also scared of some sort of intimacy with her. Understandably.

I don�t think she was very trustworthy (laughter), but I mean I�when she lied to someone on the phone. I stomped off. And I felt very righteous about it. But it�s not a moment where I�m on the Costco bench and say I leave it for some sort of moral gain. But really just a more secure isolation. She was forced to follow me.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:47:046 00:47:54) Why leave?

CLIENT: Well, I started the car up. (pause 00:47:56 00:48:00) I made her run out and get inside. For her, that was the point where she was about to open to me and we were going to do something intimate. But I turned it into her being totally dependent on me having to get into the car or else she would be stuck in some place she doesn�t even know. (pause 00:48:21 00:48:28) Just probably a generalizable fact. I like to make people, in those situations, dependent on me. Or get them to show their dependency or connection or something.

THERAPIST: Well, maybe though it was triggered by what�the call to the�the moment of intimacy�the moment (inaudible) kiss. The call to the�the lie to the boyfriend or whomever. That really brought about some other feeling about the situation.

CLIENT: (pause 00:49:02 00:49:09) Another feeling?

THERAPIST: Well, I was thinking that somehow when she introduce the�well, I was imagining that like in the�being in your shoes, her suddenly saying, �I got to call my boyfriend right at this moment,� might have really (pause 00:49:20 00:49:25) turned things. (inaudible) kind of�brings in this other dimension of her. That you couldn�t trust. Or what have you. And also maybe requiring that you wouldn�t have to care. That you just go, �Well, I�ll do it anyway.� I�ll take my opportunity here.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:49:52 00:50:09) It would change it from something that was something that was sort of�what I was imagining was that it changed it from something that was leading to kind of a romantic moment into something very different.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughter) Yeah.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:50:23 00:50:37) Where�s your mind going?

CLIENT: I�m just trying to remember whether I copped to feeling or before or after that happened. (pause 00:50:46 00:50:50) I think it was on the way to there. I know we were also driving and she saw a white Mercedes. And she said, �Oh, I hope that�s not my boyfriend.� She like ducked down. �He would be so mad.� She was good at that. She was good at the complicity. I mean that was something she was drawn to and tried to draw other people into was this sort of conspiracy against whomever which is an attractive relationship to have. To be in cahoots with someone against some other more powerful or some other force. Threatening force.

THERAPIST: Exciting.

CLIENT: But it was not�it was a very tainted sort of conspiracy. I don�t know. (pause 00:51:39 00:51:43) (inaudible)

THERAPIST: (inaudible) Well it was almost she setting up a drama.

CLIENT: (pause 00:51:48 00:51:52) He did drive a white Mercedes. Yeah. No. She was setting up a drama.

THERAPIST: Well, listen, before we stop, I believe I�ll be taking one last week of�one more week of vacation out before the summer ends. It�d be the last weekend. I�m 90% sure it�s going to be that last week of August. That would be the 20�so the day that we wouldn�t meet would be the day before�the Friday before Labor Day. Which I think is the 28th.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: Of August.

CLIENT: Sounds good.

THERAPIST: If that changes, I�ll�I will let you know.

CLIENT: Okay. You�re taking vacation now though?

THERAPIST: Tomorrow. Yeah. I�m going away for three days.

CLIENT: All right.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:52:46 00:52:50) Yeah. No. But I will be back next week at the usual time.

CLIENT: Cool. Cool.

THERAPIST: (pause 00:52:56 00:53:06) Okay. Yeah. I�ll see you next week. (pause 00:53:07

END TRANSCRIPT