TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I know you're stoned.

CLIENT: (laughs) Has that always been...?

THERAPIST: No, no. I just moved it. There are actually more changes coming up. The desk, I think, is going, and there may actually be some things coming in to go up on the walls. I think it's about time.

CLIENT: You're all about change now, huh?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:00:54]

CLIENT: I have such a hard time with getting my prescriptions refilled. They only give me two refills and then Micah wants me to renew it through the pharmacy, so they contact her. The last couple of times I've done that and they get screwed up. I can't figure it out. She's like, "I called them." I like my pharmacy, but – have you got a cold?

THERAPIST: No. Not that I knew of. Sorry. I'm all stuffed.

CLIENT: It's all right. Everybody has boogers.

THERAPIST: Everybody has boogers. Yeah, so she called them... [00:01:53]

CLIENT: I've got to call her. I went in and got a couple of extra pills on Saturday, and then I call her on Monday. Shouldn't you guys be calling? I don't know. It's become very frustrating. It's like you can do this stuff online. It's supposed to be easy and they make it so difficult. I used to have a lot of problems at my old pharmacy. That's why I switched to this one. This one is open 24 hours and it's big. I don't feel like switching. It's a pain. That's my big gripe. [00:02:54] It was a busy weekend. I had Cub Scouts on Friday night from like 6:00 – 8:00, the pack meeting. By like 7:30 Ian was a zombie. He'd had it. Then we had his learn-to-skate lesson and he did really good.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's awesome.

CLIENT: He did a really neat course. That afternoon he wanted to go skating again so I took him for lunch because we had a "go see it" with his Cub Scout den, not to be confused with his pack. The pack is made up of dens. We went to the fire station and had a blast. We got to go up on the trucks and do the fire hose. [00:04:09]

THERAPIST: The pole?

CLIENT: No, they wouldn't let them do the pole, which I don't blame them. It's kind of high liability, these six-year-old kids flying down the pole.

THERAPIST: I was thinking they'd be psyched.

CLIENT: They would. I bet you half of them wouldn't do it, though. But he wanted to go skating. We went to lunch and he was like, "Let's go skating." I was like, "None of the places are open, buddy. It's November." Just the hockey rinks have ice and they're open, but everybody's playing hockey on them. Of course, on Sunday I joked with Jess, "Does Ian want to go skating today?" She was like, "I don't know. I haven't talked to him about it." An hour later she was like, "Do you know of any rinks?" (both laugh) [00:05:16]

THERAPIST: A lot of times little kids will get frustrated at skating at first because they fall down a lot, it's cold, and the ice is hard.

CLIENT: He did this unicycle thing.

THERAPIST: What's that?

CLIENT: For the circus where he's on a unicycle.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's right. I remember you telling me about that.

CLIENT: He did the entire parade.

THERAPIST: Oh, my God.

CLIENT: So the kid's got balance.

THERAPIST: I guess so.

CLIENT: I think that made a huge difference in his ability to pick this up. He had some hard falls. He was in pain on Sunday with his arm, but it didn't deter him.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Which, now I'm going to sign him up for Sunday snowboarding lessons.

THERAPIST: I was going to say, wait until he gets his kid on skis or snowboards.

CLIENT: They say you start snowboarding in kindergarten, so I'm going to start him on snowboard. Six lessons, six Sundays in a row. [00:06:19]

THERAPIST: When do they have lessons?

CLIENT: You get a morning pass. Once he kind of figures it out after a couple of lessons I can take him on the hill. It's $46 for a morning pass for me.

THERAPIST: Ooh. Ouch.

CLIENT: Yeah. That first lesson I'm just going to be hanging out for an hour. I don't know if they have a bar open at 9:00 AM. [00:06:48] (chuckles) It's the best part of the ski lodges. I was always worried that he would hurt himself and then struggle with it and not want to do it. That's kind of starting to happen with swimming, where he's afraid of the big pool and he's afraid to go underwater. The fact that he banged himself up in skating and really had fun with it... it is supposed to have a pretty good ski program, so we'll see how it goes. At least it will give me an excuse to get out and do some snowboarding. [00:07:37]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Will that conflict with the football games?

CLIENT: No. It doesn't start until January. There might be that first one that might conflict, but I may just sell those tickets. It might conflict with some play-off games. His mom can take him out, but we'll see. Plus it's 9:00 in the morning so if it's an afternoon game or a night game, I could still do that. I'm not sure – it is not that far, but it's still like a half-hour.

THERAPIST: It's probably further than that.

CLIENT: Forty minutes.

THERAPIST: An hour [continual.] (ph?)

CLIENT: No. I live near here. I just want you to have the facts. You know I'm not living at home, right?

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: (laughs) It's only 40 minutes to one, and that's past 495. The other slope is less than an hour or about an hour, so maybe it's only 45 minutes. It's forty-five minutes.

THERAPIST: Yeah, maybe if you go...

CLIENT: We're talking Sunday morning, too. There should be no one on the road.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and you'd probably go 95 or something.

CLIENT: No, I'd probably shoot out –to 2 then 495. I don't know, but I'm sure they've got directions on their website. [00:09:30]

THERAPIST: from here to 495 is a good 40 minutes.

CLIENT: That way I can extract my snowboarding equipment without Jess saying, "Oh, you're going snowboarding all the time now." I was thinking that I may go during the week when it's cheaper – go by myself or find people willing to take the day off to board. It's significantly cheaper during the week. I don't know how much I'm going to be able to go. It's pretty expensive $46 for just a morning – and that's a small mountain. I don't even know if it is a mountain; it's a hill. It's actually a valley. I don't know why you would name the ski resort "a valley." You'd want something that would suggest height, like the Valley, which is a pretty decent mountain, but the name doesn't really market as well, that's why people just call it the Valley.....[00:10:51]

THERAPIST: Yeah, you don't really want that either. "Ville" either. A "ville" is like a town.

CLIENT: You want something like [inaudible]

THERAPIST: [inaudible] [00:11:26]

CLIENT: (pause) It was an uneventful week. I have all of these closings next week. I probably should go into the office today and get people to send me all the stuff, maybe get things done on Friday, go into the office. Except for one title, I'm all caught up on titles; even my own titles.

THERAPIST: That's great. It also sounds pretty good with Ian, not just how he's doing, but also you're running around doing activities.

CLIENT: Yeah, Stella is a different story. Jess intervenes. She doesn't like that with stuff. She blames it on me not seeing her enough, and it's just like it doesn't seem normal that a child would latch onto her mom like she does where she's just holding onto her in public. It's just bizarre. I don't know. [00:12:34]

THERAPIST: It can vary a lot. What does she do? Is she grabbing her leg all the time when they're out places?

CLIENT: Yeah. She's either in the stroller or grabbing her leg. It's like you try and interact with her and she'll go, "Aaahh," and go over and grab her mom's leg.

THERAPIST: She's 20 months?

CLIENT: Yeah. Is that normal at 20 months?

THERAPIST: I just remember she was born in February, end of February. [00:13:06]

CLIENT: When I go to the house, unless she just woke up, she's typically not in a cranky mood. Jess says that she talked about playing with me with the soccer ball outside in the rain, so she says she talked about me. All I have to do is some little game of peek-a-boo and she starts laughing; but if I tried to pick her up she would...

THERAPIST: You mean at the house?

CLIENT: No. I mean she gives me hugs and kisses all the time, but like outside. Or if I meet up with her and Jess, like at the skating ring. We were there for an hour and a half. There was pretty much time for her to warm up. Other than some little peek-a-boo stuff, she never really warmed up. [00:13:56]

THERAPIST: She's just a mama's girl for now.

CLIENT: Yeah, but is it worth me trying to...?

THERAPIST: No, Cameron, you should just give up. Of course it is. (both laugh)

CLIENT: Fool.

THERAPIST: No, no. Make the effort.

CLIENT: I'm allowed to be sarcastic. In your profession it doesn't come off very well.

THERAPIST: Sorry. Did you feel like I was being critical? [00:14:37]

CLIENT: No, but don't you think sarcasm goes to people's self-esteem.

THERAPIST: Was I actually sarcastic?

CLIENT: You were.

THERAPIST: What did I say?

CLIENT: You said, "Yeah, Cameron, you should just give up."

THERAPIST: Oh, you're right. You're right. I was. (both chuckle) [00:14:56]

CLIENT: I'm just giving you a hard time.

THERAPIST: Wait – I'm going to be sarcastic again. Really?

CLIENT: I know we're not supposed to have this much fun.

THERAPIST: Why not? (laughing)

CLIENT: I don't know. I think the insurance company would be disappointed. These people would be disappointed. Maybe not. Now you're trying to...

THERAPIST: Dust it off. Well with you turning the focus onto me and onto that you were doing things the wrong way, it makes me think we must be getting to something. I know I'm teasing you a little bit. Maybe we can just talk about some of this stuff with Stella. [00:16:14]

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Or maybe it was – I don't know – did it?

CLIENT: I'm looking at it more from the perspective that Jess's doing something wrong or that she should be doing something...

THERAPIST: I see. To facilitate the...

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean her mom had the same problem picking her up from day care, when she just cried. She even took Ian along for some familiarity or whatever, and that didn't work. I met them and I was like, "What's the matter?" She was like, "Mama." I was like, "You want your mom?" and she was like, "Yeah." (pause) Ian was never really that bad, where he was... I was around all the time, though. That might have made a difference. Stella misses Ian when he's gone. I don't know if she calls him "Geen" any more or if she says "Ian" or "Ima." [00:17:48]

THERAPIST: Why does she call him Ima?

CLIENT: Because she couldn't say Ian.

THERAPIST: Oh, Stella.

CLIENT: Stella. Yeah. She first started calling him that. Now I think she says "Ima." (pause) Ian doesn't want to play hockey, though. His mom has already brainwashed him about football and hockey. He was like, "Football and hockey are very dangerous sports. I don't want to play those." I tried to explain it. I go, " Well, you can do skating." He was like, "That's not a sport." I go, "Yes, it is. There is speed skating in the Olympics. You get big, fat quads." He'd be too lanky, I think, for speed skating. It's funny. He's taller than all the other kids and Stella is shorter than all the other kids; so the two of them together are even more skewed. [00:19:08] I'm pretty nauseous this morning. I had a lot of mucous last night.

THERAPIST: That hurts.

CLIENT: I guess I had a lot more than the average bear. I seemed to have been doing better where I wasn't even gagging in the morning. This morning I threw up a bunch of snot and saliva coughing. I don't know if I should drink ginger ale in the morning to settle my stomach; drink ginger. I don't like raw ginger. It's kind of spicy, and ginger snaps are a little spicy. (pause) [00:20:16] I think of all the Holiday crap already. I go right from the political campaign to the Holiday. It's just unrelenting. (pause) I wonder if I should buy people gifts or not. I have a little extra money, but is it smarter for me to keep it and have a rainy day for the months I don't have closings? They sent me a title order on Sunday and so I'm figuring they're pretty busy if she's working on Sunday. Maybe she was trying to catch up. I don't know. (pause) I don't know. I'm supposed to get one more order from that. On deal died. [00:21:37]

THERAPIST: Do you get paid if the deal died?

CLIENT: No. I spent money and I lose the money – not a lot $25 $50. Some post-its and shit.

THERAPIST: It doesn't seem to happen very often.

CLIENT: Not with the good lenders. I have some old contacts who pay down all the time, but I kind of price that into a particular lender. This one has me charge less than I used to charge. They told me that I'd make it up with volume and that I would have little fall-out. So far, I think only two deals have fallen out, which is not bad. (pause) (sigh) [00:22:47] I have a trial. The other party is supposed to propose a pre-trial memorandum – draft a pre-trial memorandum – and they haven't done it yet. I've been emailing her. It should have been done a week ago. Actually, the order came out months ago so, technically, it should have been out months ago. It's like someone else, once again, isn't doing their job so it makes my job – I don't know if it's tactical or not, but it's hard for me to prepare. I don't know what their case is all about because they've disclosed barely anything. The pre-trial memo is where they're really supposed to be pretty descriptive in what's going to happen. I'm trying to exclude their main witness for not disclosing reports and things they should be reporting because they're an expert. I can't do that until I know what they say he's going to testify on. I guess I could be doing my research and find a case. I'm getting a little anxious. (pause) [00:25:05]

I got a haircut. It's the longest haircut I've ever had a Supercuts. The woman thought she was like on TV, just going – you know. At the end she was taking the buzzer. Just cut my hair short. If you have to ask me if it's too short, then it's not short enough; or, "Is this okay?" The answer is, "No. Shorter." She said, "I love cutting hair like this." I'm like, "Well, then I wish you more bald men in the future." You would think my hair would be easy to cut, but it's not. I probably should just cut it myself; just shave it all off. I have an ugly scalp, though. Lord even knows what it looks like back here. I'm sure everyone knows but me. I've got all kinds of bumps and scabs, a 666 tattoo. (pause) [00:27:05] I'm going to buy a nice scanner like the one Jess has. They're not that expensive. I do a lot of volume. I could use it as a copier or I could scan it and just print it out. It would save me some time. The scanner I have at the house is pretty slow and doesn't do multiple sizes. It does letter size and I do a lot of legal scanning. [00:27:37]

THERAPIST: Yes. This could save you trips up to that office.

CLIENT: Well, no, I would actually keep it in the office because I'd probably use it more in there and then I'd still have the worst-case scenario at home. At home I could just put stuff in to scan and go take a bike ride. It's not like I have to worry about my time at home with how long it takes to scan something. It does take a long time. A lot of times I'll do work at the office and bring it home to scan, where I won't have to do that. I'll be able to scan in the office. (pause) [00:28:33] I may go to the office tomorrow or on Friday. (pause) Today I'm going straight to the office from here. I pick Ian up from school; check some mail. One of the things, too, is I've got to check my mail. I can't go a week without checking my mail. There shouldn't be any traffic today. It's a vacation week. (pause) [00:29:28] Just a little slobber. I didn't shave. (long pause) [00:30:53]

THERAPIST: I keep having to avoid talking about things that you...

CLIENT: Don't want to talk about?

THERAPIST: ... that you feel responsible for.

CLIENT: Like what? My apartment's a mess.

THERAPIST: Why don't you tell me.

CLIENT: It's my fault because I don't clean it up and put things away or throw things away. There. I've taken responsibility for my dirty apartment. Is that what you mean?

THERAPIST: Yes and no. I mean, you did bring that up, but then you just kind of wrote it off or closed on it very quickly.

CLIENT: Oh. You mean I should be looking at solution to my dirty apartment?

THERAPIST: If it's something that matters to you, that is...

CLIENT: I'm thinking someday I'm going to have a visitor. It might happen. To have the apartment a little more neat... My visitor wouldn't judge me as much. Maybe when I have to move everything. That would help me clean up some stuff – moving everything into the one room. When I have to move everything back to the other room, I can organize the apartment. Just trying to be more efficient. Get a desk. I'm working off the coffee table, which is horrible for my back. If I set up a desk, there's more room in the room – Ian's room. [00:33:19] So I avoid talking about responsibility. Yeah. What does that mean? How does that make you feel?

THERAPIST: Your view of how this seems to work is to come in...

CLIENT: I'm really not sure how this works.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. What are your thoughts?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: My thought is that it's like you kind of vent and talk about things that are bothering you; usually things other people are doing that you don't... [00:33:52]

CLIENT: How people are fucking up my life.

THERAPIST: Exactly.

CLIENT: There is a lot of that going on.

THERAPIST: It sounds that way from the way you talked about it. Certainly. But it reminds me of how it can be hard for you to do work. (pause)

CLIENT: Because I'm lazy? That wouldn't have anything to do with not taking responsibility – wanting to talk about. [00:34:42]

THERAPIST: Sure it could, if that's the correct diagnosis – laziness.

CLIENT: But there are no lazy people. [...] (inaudible at 00:34:58) journal for your own laziness.

THERAPIST: I don't know very much about [...] (inaudible at 00:35:06) about laziness. Mostly, I think the definition of laziness reflects the same sort of cop-out that...

CLIENT: I like that word.

THERAPIST: ... the laziness itself would involve. Actually, as I think about it, I think it's characteristic of what we're talking about. You'll chalk it up to laziness, you'll presume it's this enduring trait that you have, you'll be provocative with me about it, and it's all a way of not taking it up. Not taking it up in particular, something that causes you considerable trouble – which is there are things you want to be better, as you've told me about getting done. Now I know that you're working better now than you have in a while. It's something you've told me recently, and that's terrific. I think it's a big deal. I think it's hard for you to work here and I think you use the idea of laziness in a few different ways to get out of work here and elsewhere. [00:37:02]

CLIENT: So what? Isn't that really what defines laziness – someone who wants to get out of work? I mean, you're making somewhat of a circular argument.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I'm saying I'm lazy and you're saying I'm using lazy not to do things, which is the very essence of what laziness is. (both laugh)

THERAPIST: Yep. Well... I guess...

CLIENT: I don't know if it's a circular argument, but it's at least a chicken and an egg.

THERAPIST: Sure. No, I think you're right. I guess my way out of it is this: There are two reasons that I'm bringing it up. One is there are some situations... [00:38:02]

CLIENT: I did well on the logic part of the LSAT, but the reading comprehension – not so much.

THERAPIST: I think there are two points about your point. One is there are some situations, such as with your work, where I think you're ambivalent about it. On one hand, you would describe yourself as lazy but, on the other hand, I think it does bother you sometimes. You've told me that you want to be able to get to things and, maybe until the last minute, you've put them off. In that instance, you're at least not happy about being lazy or you're kind of ambivalent or there are moments where there is something you want to address. And in here, I don't know if you're aware of being that way – if you're aware of doing something that I think is closely tied in with what you call laziness in your life. So I guess I'm waiving my arms about that and saying that it could probably be usefully looked at in here, if that's something that you wanted to do, although you're absolutely right that that would have to come from you. I mean, I can point it out and fuss about it, but it's up to you, really. I think you actually do want to work on it, in part, although I think you also don't. [00:39:37]

CLIENT: (whispers) That's because I'm lazy.

THERAPIST: I think the laziness is related to feeling lonely about yourself. I think one of the reasons you've been able to work more recently – I think the extent to which you're able to work probably tracks pretty well with feeling better about yourself and better about getting work and money. Work is coming in – you know. Feeling better about yourself, more social. So you can call it laziness if you want, but it is affected by the thing about how you're doing. And I think that's one reason why it's a workable issue, do you know what I mean? [00:40:48]

CLIENT: There's not a pill?

THERAPIST: Nope. No, pills can help. If you're depressed and you take an antidepressant, it can make it easier to get motivated.

CLIENT: No, I'm talking about an anti-laziness pill.

THERAPIST: Well, I think that's what I'm saying. Pills can make a difference, but that's already kind of...

CLIENT: I'm on pills for that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, exactly.

CLIENT: So how much more lazy was I? [00:41:21]

THERAPIST: Much more lazy? I don't know.

CLIENT: It's like I didn't go get my [winter share] (ph?) because I just felt too lazy. (pause) I haven't been cooking [...] (inaudible at 00:41:47) I did really good at the beginning of the summer, but not so much now.

THERAPIST: Cameron, if you want to call it lazy you can call it lazy, that's fine. I'm just saying that it's affected by other things like feeling crummy, feeling lonely.

CLIENT: So I have to change those things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Or one of the ways psychotherapy can work is by looking at those things – how feelings of loneliness and crumminess about yourself – you can kind of address the laziness in there. [00:42:36]

CLIENT: (pause) I'm not sure how you look at feeling crummy. (pause)

THERAPIST: I think you have some idea what it would mean to work on things like this. I don't actually think you need a description from me. I think you're kind of trying to shift the focus onto what I think rather than what you think it might be.

CLIENT: Not take responsibility with it?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, we should finish up for now.

CLIENT: 8:30 on Friday?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Don't eat too much turkey if your family does that sort of thing. You might be a ham family. I don't know.

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