TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I have nothing to complain about. I haven't spoken to my mom. (chuckles) I've been busy. I had a closing last night. It took me an hour and 45 minutes in traffic to get there last night, but I knew if I waited for traffic I just would have been out there that much later, so I just might as well.

THERAPIST: Was this south? [00:01:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So you must have gone right through the city.

CLIENT: They have this little daughter. They have four, but they have a little one, and I said "I don't want you to pop your head off." I popped my finger off. And her name was Julie and she sat next to me. She said, "Julie, Julie," meanwhile I'm getting documents signed. I wasn't going to let her – you know. But, other than that I'm supposed to go see [Black Francis] (ph?), the front man of the Vixens on Saturday, but instead I'm going to see some Grateful Dead cover man with Marcia. (both laugh) I actually found someone to buy my ticket so...

THERAPIST: Good. [00:01:56]

CLIENT: I've got Sprout tonight with Trish. Marcia said she wants me to come over to her house, but that she lives with her ex-boyfriend. I was like, "So? Is he bigger than me?" (both laugh) I don't know. It's like the first weird thing to come out, that they're coming out now. I'm sure there are more surprises around the corner. I've got some for her. (both laugh) I have to wear my suit to soccer practice tonight because I have to go right from soccer to Sprout, the fundraiser. [...] (inaudible at 00:02:57) [00:03:02] It ‘was really weird. The wife kept calling me "honey" and "sweetheart" at the closing last night. Then she had all of these really loaded questions that had some political, conservative bent to them whenever she asked a question about the numbers. It was kind of strange. It was weird. When I called to get her husband's cell phone number she called me "honey" and I thought, she's from Louisiana, but she doesn't have a southern accent. I'm used to someone from the south, "sugar", "honey", but she sounded like she was from New Hampshire and she called me "honey" so she's been here a while but she still calls people "sweetheart" and "honey". It was just very uncomfortable. So that's it. [00:03:59] I seem to be going non-stop. (pause) Jam packed weekend. I think next week things might settle down. I've got Frisbee starting up two nights a week soon and there's all kinds of boring stuff, too. I'm supposed to go Wednesday night to meet someone on the development committee. They were meeting with each member of the board. First we're just going to go get a couple of drinks, which turned into "my boyfriend and friend are coming". It's going to be dinner and we're going to go see the show afterwards. I didn't have to say "yes", but it's not like I had anything else to do. I don't know what happened, but I was shit-faced. The friend left and Anna, who is on the board, left at the beginning of the intermission. [00:05:02] I'm like, "Oh, I'll stay," and it just hit me at once and I said, "I better leave." I walked home and fell asleep on the couch. I did get an appointment with Micah. I'm going to lie to her and tell her that I've not been drinking much. I kind of haven't been really good about taking my medicine, either. I'm supposed to take Wellbutrin in the afternoon and the Lamotrigine at night, which I think I told you I'm not taking as much as I should. I take all my morning medication.

THERAPIST: When you talk to Micah, I heard that the Lamictal... [00:05:52]

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. We've been through this. I take 50 in the morning so... I don't know. I think she's taking her sweet time getting me off this crap. I feel fine for now. (chuckles) (pause) I did this estate plan and I thought I'd made all of these changes and she e-mailed me back saying I'd fucked up all the changes. She wants me to go through it and it's just... I don't know. It's kind of embarrassing to have the errors in the first place, you know? Like the improper use of "then" or "than". I have to say I didn't even make the change, but I'm pretty sure I made the change. I do track changes, so it's all... I flip-flopped the mother's last names and she said I didn't fix it. She's going to be at the fundraiser tonight. (laughs) [00:07:03] Oh, boy. (pause) It looks like Harry has a couple more closings forto me, so I won't completely starve. [...] (inaudible at 00:07:19)My student loans are probably going to go into default, but this is the least of my concerns today. I think the IRS is intentionally trying to screw us because the woman who was working on our offer and compromise, which is supposed to have been done in March, called up our lawyer screaming and yelling that we didn't pay our estimated taxes and how we're not in compliance and that this is a courtesy call. Next time she's just going to pull the file. They're not even going to tell me that she's closing it. [00:08:00] I had to send her the cash checks. Yes, we sent it on the 18th. All that does is just cost us money. We've got to pay our lawyer. He, in a very unprofessional sort of way, said, "Please tell me that you paid your estimated taxes." (laughs) (pause) Jews can't play sports. (pause) And then just because of the divorce we're paying our taxes separately, the percentage of what we made last year. That may have been what screwed them up, that it's coming in under two different Socials. I don't know. It's the IRS; they suck. [00:09:07] They were originally supposed to find out in June. The last I heard our payment was only supposed to go up slightly, but they were bringing down the term from five to two years. We keep paying. It's like before you know it, it's going to be two years; but that's going to end up being five years because it's going to be two years from now. So because we keep paying every month... You've got to make all of your payments. You've got to make all of your estimated payments. Everything has to be in compliance. (pause) [00:09:57]

So Tuesday night I went out with Marcia. [...] (inaudible at 00:09:59) (pause) I don't know if I'm going to Black Francis. I would have gone by myself, but it might turn out I'm going instead of going to some dirty, hippy showdown. It's funny because originally when she brought it up she was like, "I'm going out with some of my girlfriends." And then Tuesday there was an invitation as opposed to "just going out with my girlfriends". The first time she made it sound like "you're not invited". I got invited. Progress. (pause) You're awful quite today. [00:11:09]

THERAPIST: I'm not yet sure what to make of your...

CLIENT: There's nothing to make. I'm cured. It's been nice knowing you. (pause) I still don't know what I'm doing with this whole Trish thing, you know? The more I try and think of ways to extricate myself, the more I do stupid things to make it more difficult to extricate myself. [00:12:00] I don't want to do anything tonight that's overly going to encourage her, lead her on, or even just flirting, which is hard. (chuckles) I just can't be outright cold and mean. I could, but I just can't do that sort of thing. In my efforts to be funny and charming it seems [...] (inaudible at 00:12:40) in love with me. (sniffling noises) That's a little too close to my penis. (both laugh) (pause) [00:13:14] I was going to see if Marcia wanted to go to Brian and Sam's (sp?). Sam's birthday party is next Saturday. Somebody who's going to be there tonight is also probably going to be at Sam's birthday party. I've got to make sure that they don't say anything stupid. (laughs) "You've lost some weight." "Didn't I meet you... "

THERAPIST: Wait, wait, wait.

CLIENT: They're going to meet Trish tonight and then, potentially, meet Marcia on Saturday. I don't want them to...

THERAPIST: Right. "Oh, look at you."

CLIENT: He's kind of a space cadet anyway. (pause) You're still being quiet. How can I interrupt you if you don't even talk? (both laugh) [00:14:24]

THERAPIST: If you can't, what fun is this anyway?

CLIENT: What am I paying you for?

THERAPIST: Um... (pause) [00:15:28]

CLIENT: That's an awful long pause.

THERAPIST: Well that is what you keep telling me – . [...] (inaudible at 00:15:37) everything is fine. It's kind of like there's nothing to see here. There's nothing. Keep moving. There's nothing to see here.

CLIENT: Why, do you think there's something there?

THERAPIST: Probably. Haven't you ever seen Naked Gun? Wasn't there a scene where there was an explosion in a fireworks factory? There are all of these fireworks going and he's like, "Nothing to see here. Keep moving. Move on. Move on. There's nothing to see." [00:16:19]

CLIENT: I don't remember that exactly. I just can't think of anything. Can I possibly have been fine for a few days? (both laugh)

THERAPIST: You certainly could have been fine.

CLIENT: My mom didn't call. I haven't spoken to my brother.

THERAPIST: Uh... (pause) [00:17:08] Of course, there is a bunch of stuff going on. Maybe you just don't really feel like looking at it.

CLIENT: [...] (inaudible at 00:17:15) It always popped in.

THERAPIST: That's what I'm saying.

CLIENT: It's not bothering me.

THERAPIST: Well, that's good. The guy from the bank keeps calling me, calling me, calling me. The more he calls, the less I feel like calling him back or sending the paperwork in. I think I'll do that today. Jess tried to ask me questions about the modification and I said, "I don't want to talk about it." She said, "I can't do that." I said, "I'm going to." I'm adamant that it's not going to go through. She wants to know why. [00:18:07] Basically, they look at the decision of what's the modification going to cost them? They're reducing principal payment – whatever they're taking the loss somewhere in there. How does that compare to foreclosing? Their lien is $400,000 plus another $90,000, which takes it to $480,000 or $490,000. That's about what the place would sell for. If they're going to lose more than a broker's commission on the modification they're not going to do it, which I think they would have to do. I just don't see it going through, based on where my income is. It's pretty low and they're going to seriously hack off a... But I'm not concerned about it. [00:19:18] Jess thinks she's going to get Mass Health and they're going to pay her premiums and she's going to be able to go on food stamps. She keeps ignoring the fact that the $2,200 a month she gets in rent from upstairs. (chuckles) They're going to count that. I think she just kind of gave up on making money and working. Maybe things will change in the fall when Lucille starts going to Agassiz (sp?). (pause) Are you sleeping? Your eyes are closed. You're very quiet today. You said one thing and it was negative. [00:20:36]

THERAPIST: (laughs) Why are you attacking me? You told me three times, "There's really nothing to talk about." You sort of implied there's nothing to worry about.

CLIENT: I mean I'm fine and everything. That's really more what I'm saying. I'm not stressed out. I'm not anxious. (sighs)

THERAPIST: That's all good.

CLIENT: Today I feel like I'm going to be a little bored, but at the same time I've got a lot of stuff going on. Normally I'd feel kind of overwhelmed, but I'm not feeling overwhelmed. (pause) I went a whole day without drinking. My liver said, "Thank you." [00:21:34] I was supposed to go out with my buddy, Paul, last night, but at noon – "we have to close it". I'm like, "Okay." And that was fine. They sent me to the doc store in the meeting. I had to go back to Pembroke because I didn't have my stamp and bag. If I didn't go back to Pembroke yesterday, I was just going to try and do everything in Plymouth. I left my computer. I didn't even bring my computer to B&I. I would have had to go back there today to get my stamp, so I just made the trip yesterday. Everything is just falling into place, doc.

THERAPIST: Great. Maybe it's about date with Marcia, huh? [00:22:27]

CLIENT: I don't know. She wants to see my place. (pause) I said, "What do I do if I can't sell my ticket?" just to see how she'd react. She was like, "Well, we can do something in the afternoon." I'm like, "No, no, no. You're supposed to beg me to go anyway." (chuckles) (pause) Maybe I just won't call Trish back, ignore her for a little while, sort of get the hint that I'm really busy. I am, so it's not a lie – Frisbee and Cub Scouts, Marcia. She's got a busy schedule; I've got a busy schedule. There are only certain places it matches up. [00:23:39]

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:23:38) You guys have been out a couple of times, different things. [...], you do have [...] times. I think you've kind of got [...] it's something more than that, but a couple of times.

CLIENT: I just don't want to do anything stupid – brush off her advances. She's going to be all liquored up. We're going to be in my car.

THERAPIST: Are you worried you're going to have sex with her?

CLIENT: (laughs) I'm not worried about that. I might kiss her or something stupid like that. Maybe if I got so drunk that I couldn't even drive, that would work because I'm the last MC squad, so I'm fucking denied. [00:24:57]

THERAPIST: Let me get this straight. You're worried you're not going to have enough self-control?

CLIENT: It's not self-control, I'm worried about doing something stupid. It has nothing to do with self-control. It's like saying something.

THERAPIST: How does that not have to do with self-control?

CLIENT: Because I might as well have a couple of beers. I'm worried about making a mistake more than not being able to control myself.

THERAPIST: I see. Like you're going to pass judgment?

CLIENT: Maybe, yeah.

THERAPIST: So you're concerned that it will seem like a good idea and you'll forget?

CLIENT: (laughing) No. In the exact moment that it's happening I will recognize that I shouldn't be doing it, but it's too late. It's already out of the bag. [00:25:46]

THERAPIST: And how is that not self-control?

CLIENT: It's all symantics semantics.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Now you're just blowing smoke. (both laugh)

CLIENT: You're trying to make it more significant and on me. I'm trying to dismiss it.

THERAPIST: (laughing) I would think it's completely on you if you're saying that you're not really going to be in control of your actions. I think that's pretty much the definition of "on you". (laughs)

CLIENT: I'll give you that one. Tuesday I'll tell you what we did. (both laugh) (pause) You had your fun.

THERAPIST: I did have fun. It was funny. [00:27:06]

CLIENT: Not very professional, though.

THERAPIST: How's that?

CLIENT: My clients do funny things all of the time, but I can't laugh in their face about it.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:27:20)Is it hurtful that I was laughing?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: You're just trying to think I am. (both laugh) Yeah, look, this is sort of like hysteria kind of par excellence in that you are, in about 15 different ways, trying to avoid taking responsibility for what you're doing. [00:28:07]

CLIENT: Is there like an exam that I have to answer to every question in psychology school, that the patient stops taking responsibility? Isn't that what it really comes down to? If they're not deranged?

THERAPIST: Yes, that is usually what it comes down to, but people use different tactics.

CLIENT: So what am I not taking responsibility for? What I might do tonight? Is that what you're saying?

THERAPIST: Two things. One is what you might do tonight and the other is your evasion of that responsibility sitting here talking to me. [00:28:56]

CLIENT: Here's any example. I probably should not have invited her tonight, but I did it anyway. Why? I don't know why. You call it lack of self-control. I call it stupidity, almost like it was an involuntary action, which you would call lack of self-control. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I would say that descriptively it demonstrates some lack of self-control and reflectiveness, but I wouldn't say that's the cause of it.

CLIENT: I don't want to burden myself with "What are you doing? What are you doing? Don't do that." You know?

THERAPIST: It's too burdensome to spend 15 seconds before you pick up the phone (laughing) thinking about what you're doing? That's just a little thin. (laughs) [00:30:03]

CLIENT: I don't think that was professional, either

THERAPIST: But I think it's (laughs)... Let's just be clear who's doing things for money here. I'm not even really saying you're doing things wrong, I'm just trying to call attention to the way in which you...

CLIENT: And that's the way I'm taking it, is that you're saying it in sort of a negative...

THERAPIST: A derisive kind of way...

CLIENT:... "It's on me" kind of way, where I'm saying it where I'm saying it's...

THERAPIST: Yes, I think it is on you. I'm not intending to be critical or demeaning and if you hear what I'm saying in that light, then we should talk about that.

CLIENT: But that's what lack of self-control means. You're not pointing out that I'm...

THERAPIST: That's true. It's not unusual. I'm not saying, "Oh, you like the color blue."

CLIENT: I want it to be neutral. I'm fucked up! (both laugh) Not like, "Oh, man. I fucked up." (both laugh) [...] (inaudible at 00:30:03) I flaked. That's what they would say in L.A. Some comedian did that like, "You're supposed to pick me up from my operation," or something like that. [...] (inaudible at 00:31:19) "Oh, I flaked." (both laugh)

THERAPIST: Yeah, as though... the funny part is that... Yes. Anyway. Yes. I probably didn't need to say anything right there.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Although one question that remains unexplored there is why? Why is it difficult to... For example, you could be saying, "I don't know what I was doing. I punched this guy in the face at a show the other night. It just kind of happened and there I was. That would actually mean something different, do you know what I'm saying? [00:32:09] It's not just that you're randomly not in control of yourself, these are particular things and particular sorts of things; and I wonder why this is one of those. Why is it that it's harder to control yourself when it comes to moving things forward with Trish in a way that you, at the same time, think is not a good idea?

CLIENT: Why?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Why? What's the second part of the why? [00:32:56]

THERAPIST: Okay, J. I'm not sitting here saying, "Well, you know, you really shouldn't be pursuing things with Trish because there's this thing with Marcia." You're the one who's saying, "It will be stupid. It will be a bad idea. I shouldn't do it, but here we are in the car and who knows? The next thing I knew, there I was."

CLIENT: I don't do that. (both chuckle) You're the one who's always staring up.

THERAPIST: I'm dramatizing.

CLIENT: Well, don't. (chuckles) Do I dramatize it? Are you calling me a drama queen again?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I'm just saying I feel like if I don't underline it very explicitly, it goes away.

CLIENT: That's what I wanted. (chuckles) (pause)

THERAPIST: Why? Why do you want that?

CLIENT: I don't want to think about it.

THERAPIST: Okay. Well, you hired me. [00:34:03]

CLIENT: (chuckles) I was forced to see you. I just can't let go.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: (laughs) Every week I just want to call you up and say, "I'm never coming again."

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay. I didn't think so.

CLIENT: But I was forced to come here. It wasn't my idea.

THERAPIST: How were you forced? I'm not doubting you, actually, I'm just...

CLIENT: To shut Jess up. (pause) I was delusional. I thought it might help get her off my back. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That was the delusion, you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. (both laugh) [00:35:03] (pause) Other than that, everything is fine. And I'm not even really concerned about it. You seem to be more concerned about it than I am. I've kind of accepted that I'm going to do something stupid, so...

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: We'll look at that on Tuesday and we'll notice it.

THERAPIST: Now I think you're just trying to infuriate me. (laughs) You need me as the one who is responsible for everything. You get to go off and you do whatever you want because I'm the one who's going to be sitting here like... [00:36:12]

CLIENT: But if that makes me feel better... Okay, let's say I look at it and I'm like, "Oh, this sucks. I can't control myself. I can't take responsibility for anything. I'm anxious, I'm nervous and stressed and depressed."

THERAPIST: And getting me worked up about it makes you feel less guilty about it.

CLIENT: I'm happy because I'm not thinking about it.

THERAPIST: Because you know I'm thinking about it.

CLIENT: Well, if that makes you feel important, yeah. (both laugh) I'm not consciously thinking, "Well, Dr. J is thinking about that...

THERAPIST: No, but I think it is something that you are consciously – I mean you do it to Jess all the time, actually. You kind of leave the other person holding the bag, that sort of naggy, ogrish other person. "Oh, they nag. They did this and they fussed about that and they told me I had to do this and there are all these responsibilities and they're overbearing and they're trying to get me to do this, and all I want to do is just be able to do my thing and not worry about it." [00:37:17] This happens with me in, obviously, a much milder way than happens with Jess, but I think there are some aspects of it that are similar and I think it causes you trouble.

CLIENT: Are you saying that Jess didn't nag me?

THERAPIST: No. I'm saying that you contributed to getting her to nag you. She has her own...

CLIENT: Have I ever denied that?

THERAPIST: What am I, a courtroom? No, of course you've never denied that.

CLIENT: But the way you say it is somewhat absolute, though.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: You're bringing something up in a way that implies that I denied it in some way or that I haven't accepted it or that that's the problem. [00:38:01]

THERAPIST: I think that is true. You just told me a minute ago that you're not aware of how you do this with people, so I think there are aspects of it that you haven't been aware of. That's not to say there aren't other ways in which you do know you contributed, say with Jess, but I think this is one that you probably haven't been so clear about.

CLIENT: Why she nagged me?

THERAPIST: How your M.O. of evading responsibility and leaving the other person with it contributes to an arrangement of things wherein you kind of fend them off as naggy and overbearing and overly uptight about things; whereas you're just easy-going and relaxed and wanting to do your thing. [00:39:01]

CLIENT: My thing... (laughs) Is this an example – Marcia is like, "What should we do?" and I'm like, "Do you want to go out to eat." She says, "Where do you want to go?" So I start making her make the decision by giving her all the options and me not making any of the choices.

THERAPIST: It could be. I'm not sure. It might be. I don't know.

CLIENT: Well, figure it out.

THERAPIST: Did you feel like she was being overbearing?

CLIENT: No, I told her I was going to do it.

THERAPIST: That may be like a "but", like an early... [00:39:57]

CLIENT: I told her I don't like making decisions, so I just turned it around and had her make the decision, but I don't know if she's making the decision. I proceeded to do it and she didn't notice.

THERAPIST: Right. That sounds like a kind of proto-version. (pause)

CLIENT: I thought today was going to be easy, but apparently not. I came in all happy and now I'm leaving all depressed. I can't take responsibility for wanting to do my own thing – or I give the responsibility to other people. And I just do my thing.

THERAPIST: Sometimes.

CLIENT: Not as much as I used to? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I think that's probably true. (long pause) Well, we should stop for now. On Tuesday I'll see you, but not Friday.

CLIENT: Right. Wish me luck.

THERAPIST: Good luck.

CLIENT: Have a good weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you. You, too.

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