TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Well, I'm glad you're getting paid somehow. (pause)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: I actually got a call from one of the cuckoo condo clients as she dropped the fee.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Which is good because I know another one is willing to drop off his third and then they're going to do a payment plan for the rest. But I could use the money right now. (sigh)

THERAPIST: Does that mean the money will be in there if I bill you?

CLIENT: Yeah. Did you try and bill me and it bounced?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Okay. Yeah, it's not there right now.

THERAPIST: Okay. Alright, why don't we do this. I'll make a note and when I'm doing my bills this weekend, I'll actually bill you this weekend. [00:01:04]

CLIENT: If it doesn't go through shoot me a text of how much you're sending and trying to bill and I can move some money.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: (clears throat)

THERAPIST: Yeah, at the end of the month I'm doing statements so I won't Yeah, if it bounces I will.

CLIENT: I don't know if I have the three thousand dollars to cover it though, you know.

THERAPIST: I don't think it's quite that much.

CLIENT: I hope not. The amount I have in my Quicken is, I just have a hundred dollars going in every weekend.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I have more at least.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So I should be able to put in money that should make sure there's enough.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because I haven't taken out the days -

THERAPIST: Gotcha.

CLIENT: that, you know, you were afraid of terrorists or something like that. You know? (pause) So Mom came to town this weekend. [00:02:03]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, you know, I really it bothers me the short period of time that she comes. She came in, she got into Manchester Airport at 2:20 on Saturday.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I drop her off at 1:00 on Monday.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: That's less than forty eight hours. But by one o'clock on Monday I'm like "Phew, I'm so glad she's leaving." You know? On the one hand, you know, for my kids I'm disappointed, but for me it's the perfect amount of time.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Forty seven hours. So my brother got engaged.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: My Mom, you know, comes in and she mentions that she's expecting a call this weekend. And I was like, "Well." (clears throat) And I refuse to acknowledge that I was, you know, I'm like if she's going to play this game, it doesn't matter. When the call comes I'll find out. But I figured it was something along that line. [00:03:16]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I was like, you know, I don't know how long my brother's been going out with this woman but, you know, it just didn't seem like that was it. But that was like the first thing that came to mind. And I really couldn't, you know, so whatever. You know? And I think she was disappointed she didn't get to tell me, which was nice. So (laughs) Yeah.

So then he calls. And my Mom has this really bad habit of, you know, it's like she has to call my Grandma while I'm there and shove the phone in my face and say, "Here, talk to Grandma."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And she's like, "Oh, Cameron doesn't want to talk to you." You know, I mean, she's just, you know. So brother called, "Here, congratulate your brother." And I'm like, (sigh). So I'm like, "Congratulations. You know, this woman maybe she should have her mental health evaluated."

And she pipes up. Whoops! (laughs) "Oh, I already had that." And he's like, "You're the one who needs to be evaluated." And I go, "I've been evaluated on multiple occasions and I would not marry you." (laughs) I just hope he doesn't ask me to be his best man. [00:04:28]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: He did last time. That was a long time ago. I don't know if he has any friends. So, but my Mom, this was like just classic Mom. I don't know how it came up but it just came out of the blue. She was talking about how, you know, weeks ago, a month ago, whenever when Kaley moved in with my brother.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: She posted on Facebook a picture of the house saying, "This is my house." My Mom -

THERAPIST: Kaley posted on Facebook?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Saying that this house is -

CLIENT: The house that she's moving into, "This is my house."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: The house owned by my brother. So my Mom is all offended, to this day she's offended, because she thinks that Kaley Now she's telling me this knowing that my brother is proposing and the he is going to call, because she's already told me. So I know, you know, maybe her opinion of Kaley would change now that she's, you know, a future daughter-in-law, but no. [00:05:38]

You know, this woman is sort of saying, "Hey, look what I got." And my Mom, you know she's a accountant right? (laughs) "She's not some, you know, bloodsucking You know, this is how Facebook works. You have all these friends that you like to communicate with and you have one nice little package where you can talk to a lot of them at once.

"And she wanted her friends to know that she was moving and that this is what her new residence looked like. So she put it on Facebook and that's what Facebook's for." My Mom refuses We got into it yesterday in front of like twenty people waiting in line at the neighborhood restaurant in Plymouth. [00:06:32]

"You're insane. You are insane." And she just kind of laughed which, you know. And then I tried to get her to admit that the real reason she likes Kaley is because she's religious. And she knew what I was trying to do so she wouldn't say it. "All I want is for her to make him happy." That's what I told Marcia.

I said, "It doesn't matter to my Mom that you're not religious, she just wants you to make me happy." Because that's what she says and I don't believe it. This is just, you know, she's got a different weird 1950's American Princess, southern belle, you know, melting pot of these weird ideas about the world. [00:07:31]

You know, my cousin got married years ago out in Oregon. We were in Portland, Oregon and my Mom is complaining that the women there were wearing sandals (pause) to a wedding (pause) in Oregon. Where that's probably all these people owned were sandals. You know? And everybody is just like, "You're crazy." "Well in Austin everybody would ." But that's Austin, you know, where everybody overdresses for everything. You know?

But I'm exhausted. You know, long weekend, very little sleep, lots of drinking. (whispers) Phew, I'm tired. Got all my workouts in. (inaudible at 00:08:33) (pause) I've got handball tonight. I really don't want to go play.

THERAPIST: She makes you feel like shit.

CLIENT: My mom?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Nah, not any more. I mean when she says things like, you know, like when she doesn't think that You know, she just doesn't appreciate, you know, what's happening to me or what's happened to me or, you know, that kind of stuff makes me feel bad. But this other stuff is really just, I'm so used to it, you know, that I just kind of It used to drive me crazy. You know?

Like she was complaining about how this thing happened. They all went I went to a barbecue and she went with Jess and the kids to Cheesecake Factory. And my Mom's telling this long story about how, "We were brought up to the table and we were schlepped with the kids and the coats and the strollers, and through the crowd of people and da da.

"And the table was dirty and so the lady wanted them to go all the way back so they could clean the table. But then we went here and they cleaned the table, and da da da. But the table wasn't clean so we da da da." And, you know, just. [00:09:39]

And so it's like this was probably all of five minutes waiting for the table to be cleaned. They were trying to find another table for them that was clean. You know. So my Mom is telling this like twenty minute story. And, you know, we get to breakfast with Jess and my Mom kind of mentions it to Jess. And Jess's like, "What? Huh?" (laughs)

I mean that's probably where I get it from. Don't you think? Doesn't mental health travel down the mother's side of the family? At least that's what Kurt Vonnegut says.

THERAPIST: Hm. Um.

CLIENT: His Mom was crazy, his grandmother was crazy, he was crazy. (pause) [00:10:44]

THERAPIST: Your tone as you're talking I think is much less about feeling like her than as feeling subject to her. I mean it's like you find her incredibly self-absorbed and she's always -

CLIENT: Dramatic.

THERAPIST: And -

CLIENT: Helpless. Did I mention "helpless."

THERAPIST: I don't think she sounds helpless.

CLIENT: Maybe I'm doing a bad job of explaining her, but -

THERAPIST: Well I think if you genuinely found her helpless, you might feel bad for her. But I don't think you feel bad for her.

CLIENT: Well -

THERAPIST: You're furious at her because I think you find her to be manipulative.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: And self-serving.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, so that this helplessness I think you feel like it's a pose in order to get you to do things or to feel things, feel bad. [00:11:44]

CLIENT: Like she sends me a text, "This weekend we're going shopping to get an iPad." I'm like, "No." (clears throat)

THERAPIST: That doesn't sound helpless to me. That sounds more like she's, you know, actually pretty effective. (laughs) It's just that you're so prepared for it, it's not quite going to work.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I was like go to the She was like, "I need you to load it for me." I'm like, "Mom (inaudible at 00:12:17).

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean? But like your description of her is not so much that she's actually helpless, as that she presents herself as being helpless in order to manipulate you. Which is, I think, quite different. (pause)

CLIENT: Well, it's that, you know -

THERAPIST: Well you sound furious, actually.

CLIENT: Do I?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Hm. It's kind of hot in here.

THERAPIST: It isn't.

CLIENT: Interesting.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Maybe it's because you're furious.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:13:07)

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: I don't know. It's like there's one part of me that like wants her to be happy because she knows not what she does. You know, she's been doing it for so long, she's going to be seventy.

THERAPIST: Oh I think you feel like she knows what she does. When she calls you up and says, "Oh, I'm at the Apple store." I mean first of all she's saying, "We're going to the Apple Store."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's totally manipulative. She's not saying, "Oh my God, I don't know what to do. I want to get an iPad but I'm so overwhelmed." She's saying, "We're going." She's telling you what to do. That's not that helpless. You know, she knows exactly where she wants to go, exactly how she's going to try to get you to go there, exactly how she's going to try to get you to do the things she wants you to do. That really doesn't sound that helpless to me.

CLIENT: Maybe you're right. Because I know the whole religious thing is not about, you know, perpetuation of the species and, you know, assimilation and all those things. It's about the ability to tell her friends that, "My son is dating a religious woman." [00:14:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's about her. I mean, I think she's like very self-involved. You know? If she can say something that's going to make her feel like she looks better to the people she's around at home, that's what's going to matter the most to her. Not that her sons are happy with who they are with, or what those women are actually like as human beings. But that she can say something to her friends that she feels will make her look good.

Which is really pretty gross. I mean this is your kid. And from what you're describing like, yeah, you don't really care at all the character of the person that they're with. You know? What that person's like, how they treat your son, whether they make him happy. What you care about is, you know, you can look this much better in the eyes of your cronies at wherever.

CLIENT: (whispers) [She's a accountant.] (ph) [00:15:13]

THERAPIST: (laughs) The way you describe it, it's really disgusting. And it may be very familiar, but I don't think that makes it feel any better.

CLIENT: It's annoying.

THERAPIST: I think it's a vast understatement.

CLIENT: Well you know me, I'm subtle. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs) Sometimes you are.

CLIENT: (clears throat) I think maybe part of it too is now I don't let the stuff at least get to me as much as I used to.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think it gets to you actually a lot. But it does sound like you kind of roll with it better and you're not quite as, you're not as reactive to it in the moment with her.

CLIENT: I mean everything's like that now.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I find that there's a lot of things.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But I think it really gets to you. I mean if you're saying I mean in a pretty quiet way you have a litany of things, you know, that you're furious with. "Well, she's here less than fucking forty eight hours. You know what, I didn't even want her here that long, but it's still gross that that's all that she can be here." [00:16:37]

CLIENT: And you know what?

THERAPIST: What?

CLIENT: She's taking a fourteen day cruise.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: In July.

THERAPIST: She's got two grandkids.

CLIENT: She's taking unpaid vacation days to go on a fucking cruise.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Lucille did really well with them. She had a ball.

THERAPIST: That's great.

CLIENT: My Mom held Lucille in the pool.

THERAPIST: Great.

CLIENT: I think I mentioned that Lucille loves Poppa.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yes.

CLIENT: And I was holding Lucille and we were sitting next to Poppa, we were at the pool. And Poppa was going (loud clap), and Lucille's going (soft clap). And it was just this cute little back and forth.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And my Mom has got her iPhone up and she claims to videotaping and just like this is, you know, Lucille's not going to remember him. You know, she's two, he's eighty five.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: This is going to be a great video for her. [00:17:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And so my Mom was like, "Uh oh. Uh oh." So I grabbed the phone and I hit play and the video is five seconds. This thing went on for like three or four minutes. Five seconds of Poppa's knee. Whoops. (clears throat) And then she wanted us to stage it again later.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You can't stage that kind of stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, Lucille went and gave him a little kiss at the end. And she was really unaffected by I mean she was excited to see them and she was just a little chatterbox.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's great.

CLIENT: You know.

THERAPIST: I mean, again, I think the way you're describing it makes me think that what you feel is, you know, was telling your grandfather, your mother's not actually the center of attention right there. And so she doesn't want anything to do with it. [00:18:47]

CLIENT: No, she actually likes it.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay.

CLIENT: Because that's her husband.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Not my Dad. Not Flo (ph). The idea that she gets on the Facetime and asks for Poppa, my Mom really likes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But once again, it's a self-centered reason.

THERAPIST: Yeah, just not the one I had in mind.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, you know, because Curtis's ex-wife -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: won't even let the kids call him "Poppa." He's Steve, and Flo's not Mimi, she's Flo.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And (sound heard like a text message). Stupid. (pause) So this Marcia thing is getting out of hand.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. A really weird thing happened on Saturday. Was it Saturday or Sunday? I think it was Sunday. Well we went out. Her friends, like high school friends. [00:19:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: She's been friends with these people forever. You know, her birthday is tomorrow so they're throwing a little birthday party. And I, you know, hung out with the family, went out to dinner, whatever, and then, you know, I drove down to Burnley. You know?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And, you know, we were just up all night having a good time. So the next day, I don't know, I made some comment, you know, about her friends or something like that. So she texted something back. And I said, "Yeah, you know," and just jokingly I said, "You know, they're all douche bags."

And first her response was like, "What?" (laughs) And then I'm like, "You know, I'm just kidding. They're all really cool people," you know, whatever, "and I really like them." And then she replies back, "No, they're douche bags."

And then, I didn't pick it up. It took me later in the day to kind of recognize what she was We weren't talking about the same things. She was kind of going down this line of joking focusing on the douche bag thing. And so she's like, "You know, well maybe we're just not compatible." You know, "Take it easy," you know, whatever. [00:21:14]

And every time I would, you know, send a message At first I was playing along with it, you know. And then I was kind of, "Oh, this is," you know, "getting old." You know? And, you know, kind of bothering me. Like her not returning a text right away bothered me.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, but knowing that it's silly. You know. So I went and took a nap. And, you know, I sent her some messages. You know, sort of expecting kind of a response. You know. I took a nap. I was exhausted. And I woke up and it had been a couple of hours. And it was like, you know, I hadn't heard back from her. And I was like, you know.

So I was like, you know, "Is anybody out there," whatever. And her response was like, "I'm trying to lose you," or something like that. And it started to really bother me at that point because I'm like, you know, this isn't just, you know, a fun little thing that happened. You know, this is now several hours later and she is still [00:22:19]

THERAPIST: On that thread.

CLIENT: You know. So eventually I was just like, you know, "I'm really not having fun." Even though I said that a couple of times, and she still kept going on with it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And then finally I was just like, you know, this is. you know. "I'm, you know, one to love joking and whatever," I said, "but, you know, you kind of dragged this on a little long and I really didn't like it." You know? And because she was kind of saying, you know, that I can't take a joke or something like that.

And then she replies and she's like, "Yeah, you know, that was mean. But it was mean of you to call my friends douche bags."

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: So she was like dragging this whole thing out -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: thinking it was funny. And I should've thought it was funny too, which I did initially. But actually I was really not liking it.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It suggests to me [that I might not like her] (ph) or something like that. [00:23:21]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: For me to, you know, stay on the porch -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: while the big dogs are out there running. You know? (pause) I noticed it. I paid attention.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: But I do. I look at things now and I'm like, "Why am I feeling like that?" You know? (pause) We went to the baseball game last night. She spent the night over. She's been having her period for like three weeks now. No, it's I can't remember what night it was, but she's like, "I have my period." And this was maybe like last Tuesday.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I kind of was like doing the math and I was like, "God, has it been a month already?" You know? [00:24:19]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then Saturday night she was like, "You're not going to believe this." She's like, "But, you know, I guess I was only spotting." I don't know what that means. "But I'm having my period."

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Okay. You know. And then last night she's like, you know, "I know you're not going to believe this." (laughs) (sound like a text message)

THERAPIST: Hm. How are things for you sexually?

CLIENT: She's had her period. So, I don't know. I imagine they're better just from, you know, situational type But (pause) I'm taking her out for her birthday on Friday.

THERAPIST: Oh nice.

CLIENT: And she was suggesting that she wasn't going to have her period then. At one point she was kind of disappointed -

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: that she was having her period. [00:25:24]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I don't know what to do though for like the whole birthday thing. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You mentioned that a couple of times.

CLIENT: I keep meaning to send a text to Paige. I figured I was just going to take her out for a nice dinner. Flowers. I mean I don't know if I should get her like a real gift or, you know, a card. That might seem too sappy. (pause) She likes potatoes. I was thinking of like getting her a Mrs. Potato Head. I don't know if they still make those. (pause)

She asked me to go to a wedding with her. That's kind of serious. [00:26:38]

(long pause) (sigh)

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause)

CLIENT: It's just weird because it's not like she is like going out of her way doing anything you know crazy or anything like that. But just the way she treats me, no one's really ever treated me before. [00:27:47]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, just saying nice things to me and just, you know? And just, you know -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Showing affection to me. It's just very good. (pause) I keep thinking to myself, "God, Jess was such a bitch."

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (laughs) You know, it's almost just like, "What was I doing?"

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, it's like maybe I just wasn't aware that this was, you know, what things should be like.

THERAPIST: There was that comment about your Mom earlier in the hour that was fairly illuminating to me.

CLIENT: You've just been waiting to talk about my family for fucking years. You're just like, "Mm, we'll get to it." [You're so patient.] (ph) Go ahead.

THERAPIST: Um.

CLIENT: "The whole thing about your Mom is illuminating."

THERAPIST: To me, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. And that [00:28:50]

THERAPIST: Uh. (pause) It seems to me how self-involved she is, or at least as you felt her to be, has had a profound effect on you. (pause) It's kind of what you expect and sometimes put up with a lot from other people, [other than, I'm thinking of Jess.] (ph) And I think you feel it like pretty acutely, but I don't think you necessarily notice it.

I mean you know you're upset, or you're angry, or you know, something bothered you. But I don't know that you like generally have seen how it has worked. And I don't think it's because like you can't figure it out. I think, I'm not quite sure why it is. Maybe it's (inaudible at 00:30:15). I'm not sure.

But, you know, I think what you said about how your Mom was this weekend, and a kind of a tone that you've set and feeling so (inaudible) about it. And what you said about Jess and also what you said about Marcia. Like, God, it's like it's a revelation that somebody could be nice to you the way she is. And in a way could take you into account the way she does. Like almost as if that it didn't occur to you (sound like text message) that could happen. (pause)

And I think it also makes you really wary of me because, you know, this is what you anticipate is what you had from your mother and often, at least how it felt to you, with Jess is, you know, somebody's going to be out for themselves and, "I don't really care where you're coming from." And, you know, do things that feel very much anyway like taking advantage of you. [00:31:45]

I guess I imagine that at some level that's what you anticipate with me. And that's part of why you often like are wary of my comments, or derail them, or don't really want to stay with things that are bothering you, or (inaudible at 00:32:21) what was going on. Because like how could you sort of trust that I would have those conversation in your interest rather than in some more self-serving way? (pause)

CLIENT: My Mom, you had mentioned how well she got along with Jess this weekend. How there was no arguing or anything. I thought I got along horribly with Jess this weekend.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: You know? There was a lot of confrontation and disagreement about things.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And, you know, just the usual disgust at something I might say. (sound of text message)

THERAPIST: Was it just that your Mom was saying, "Gosh, she's really not so difficult." Like, you know, as though -

CLIENT: "She's looking good. Her hair is nice." You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Right.

CLIENT: You know? Just the two of them are just like best friends the whole weekend. I mean I let them go to dinner while I went to the barbecue. [00:33:22]

THERAPIST: It's incredibly cruel isn't it?

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: It's incredibly cruel, isn't it? "Oh, your ex-wife's awesome. She looks great." You know, "She's so easy to get along with. We're doing great this weekend." I mean that's (pause) quite a betrayal. It's horrible. You may not be surprised.

CLIENT: I wouldn't use the word "betrayal."

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: She's totally siding with your ex-wife?

CLIENT: She's not siding with her, but she's, you know -

THERAPIST: She's saying, I mean, in not so many words, "She's awesome." Or, "She's doing well."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or like I mean I imagine somehow feeling like, "Is she doing better without you?" "I'm hanging out with her and not as much fun hanging out with you." That is somewhat a betrayal. If that's what it felt like. Maybe it didn't But if that's how it felt. No? Okay. [00:34:24]

Or least this sense of like "Gosh, [I don't exactly] (ph) know what you were talking about about how difficult she was. It wasn't like that."

CLIENT: Well Ian has been acting really awful lately.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: He is bouncing off the walls. He cannot stand still. He does not hear you.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: "Ian look at me, listen to me." He looks, he moves away into the la la land. And I think Jess might be a little right on this that he still has strep. He's been sick for a couple of weeks and they don't know what's causing the strep. And they think it might be allergies so they've got him on Claritin, which I think might be giving him a little bit of an energy boost.

THERAPIST: Sure. [I think he should] (ph) take Penicillin.

CLIENT: What's that?

THERAPIST: Did he take Penicillin?

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know what he took.

THERAPIST: But he took some kind of -

CLIENT: Antibiotics. He's on like a second course of it.

THERAPIST: Alright.

CLIENT: And so, you know, it's difficult for everybody. I know it's very difficult for Jess.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: She's doing a lot of, you know, just having him go spend time with himself. And you know, "Let's cut back on the sugar. Let's cut back on the colored, the artificial colors," and, you know. And, you know, I mean if you looked at the kids today you would say, "Oh my God, this kid has ADHD." You know? [00:35:40]

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: But I think it's just a -

THERAPIST: Well maybe. I mean there are -

CLIENT: You know, I would not put him on medication.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I just, I think it has a lot to do with the sickness and maybe the Claritin.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But it's his You know, his behavior is really bad.

THERAPIST: (cross talking at 00:35:58). Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, you know, it's like, "Hey," you know, this was yesterday, I was like "You know, Tuesday when I'm playing handball in the square, it's like, you know, it would be a game for Ian to come to." So I said something to Jess. And at first she's like, "No, he needs sleep. It's the first day back to school. He's going to be tired." You know, every excuse not to do it because it's really going to inconvenience her.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know. That's what (inaudible at 00:36:26). And then she's like, "Okay." She's like, "Yeah, Ian, you know, maybe I'll come pick you up," whatever. You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I'm like, "Okay." I just know he wants to go out there and everybody wants to see him.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Then he just kept going on. You know, I would say something and he wouldn't listen. He wouldn't listen to Jess. He's just being very reckless and spilling things and dripping water and knocking his sister over. And he's just being really just reckless in how he's moving around.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He took this water can and he was like spinning around and water is coming out of it. And Jess's like, "Put the can down." And he just does nothing. He just keeps going on. "Put the can down." And then he kind of starts walking over, but he's still kind of swinging it, water is still flying over. And she said it like two more times and he still had it in his hand. And he was clearly going to put it down, but he wasn't putting it down.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I was like, "Buddy, you're not going to handball tomorrow. You cannot listen. This has been going on the whole weekend. You're not " You know, I had just had it. I was like, I'm tired of threatening to take something away. [00:37:31]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know, "I've never threatened to take this away but, you're not going to handball." So what does Jess do? She totally doesn't see it as me punishing him. You know, she sees it as, "Well, maybe he shouldn't go to handball." You know? And he gets pissed off, rightly so, because he sees it as her taunting because the way she didn't do it as a punishment thing, she did it as, "Well maybe you shouldn't go because, you know, you're sick and you need rest."

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And, you know?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not the line I was going on where, "You've been a real prick all weekend."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know? And so he's getting really upset about this. And I didn't even You know, it's like I wanted to intervene because it's like, you know, because he's partly right here.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, he shouldn't go to handball (sound of text message) but you did just taunt him.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You know?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And so she's like, "Hey, yeah, you can go to handball." You know? And then I pulled away from him like, you know, two minutes later. You know? [00:38:32]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then she agreed, but not as a punishment. She, you know -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: she totally skipped over the punishment thing. But he's just really I'm picking him up from school today and, you know, it kind of dawned on me, I was talking to Marcia about it, and it kind of dawned on me that the Claritin might be what's giving him so much energy.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, it's probably messing, clouding up his head a little bit too.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And so I'm not excited he's on that stuff because it's, you know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean he just can't stand still.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, he can't focus. He just, you know. But (pause) He calls me at seven thirty and I'm in Burnley. I just woke up on the couch at Marcia's friend's house. And the phone rings, Jess was calling. Why is she calling me at seven thirty? I'm thinking maybe something's the matter. [00:39:32]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So I answer it. It's Ian. "Hi Daddy. When are you coming over?" I'm like, okay, I'm in Burnley. I need to go home and probably clean up a little bit and, you know. I'm like, "I got to get ready and whatever but I'll be home in a while." You know? So I go home, he calls again. "When are you coming over?" You know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It took me forever to get over there. And finally, I'm like block away, and it's like, "Where are you? When are you coming over?"

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I'm my usual, I'm in Vermont or whatever. "What? Oh, oh oh." You know? And as I'm like pulling into the driveway he was thinking about coming over. And so I hang up with him and knock on the door. "Oh." And he goes, "Daddy!" So, yeah, I feel a little guilty about, you know, I've now got a make choices between Marcia and the kids. [00:40:42]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: You know, I was doing a lot of that this weekend.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I don't know. It'll work itself out. It will be easier when, you know, and I don't know at what point, you know, if you say this is fine for her to meet the kids.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: Like right now I don't see a problem with it.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I'm sure Jess would. But just because of the -

THERAPIST: Does she know about Marcia?

CLIENT: Yeah. But just because of the time period.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. Jess wants more.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [We need to stop.] (ph)

CLIENT: (sigh) Oh boy. I wish I could tell my Mom that (inaudible at 00:41:32) don't like her. (pause) I'll see you Friday?

THERAPIST: Yeah?

END TRANSCRIPT