TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
CLIENT: Is anal retentiveness a -
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: mental disorder or just a type of personality?
THERAPIST: Um.
CLIENT: If you were anal retentive you would bill weekly, so we know that's not true.
THERAPIST: That is a (pause) I'm not sure if I would ever quite use that term, but he talked sort of in his earlier writing about (inaudible at 00:00:40) give up the idea of people with kind of anal fixations who were sort of anal in the way we talk about it now. Where it kind of had those personality characteristics. And he had a sort explanation for why they behaved that way.
And most of that's been kind of sort of subsumed (ph) by other ways of thinking about, like in terms of obsessionality.
CLIENT: Yeah, I remember the Saturday Night Live of the anal retentive chef.
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: That was based on the guy from PBS.
THERAPIST: Yeah, I saw it.
CLIENT: The one who ultimately was arrested for being a pedophile.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: You know? He was just like I can't remember what the name of the show was but, you know, it was this old dude. And they used to make fun of him because they spent more time cleaning things -
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: and putting things in bags and Tupperware and all this stuff rather than actually cooking. [00:01:50]
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: So it was pretty funny.
THERAPIST: I saw Dan Aykroyd once do a Julia Child show where there was actually also a fair amount of like bathing and the whole thing is cutting up a chicken. "Save the liver." You know, like he would kind of stumble over some things like being Julia Child, you know, all by herself. And going on about saving the chicken liver. (pause)
Yes, I did bill you over the weekend. Do you want any more detail about where we're at? I'm happy to put it together if you like.
CLIENT: Yeah, because, you know, I mean this was real kind of back of the envelope kind of stuff but I think I came up with six hundred dollars. And then I thought maybe, okay, there was the week we didn't meet because of the (pause)
THERAPIST: Because of my being squeamish about going out when there was a whole lockdown.
CLIENT: terrorists. Yeah. Was that the only one? I thought maybe there was two.
THERAPIST: Let's see. There would have been another week I was away.
CLIENT: So that's why I took it down to five hundred, but maybe I missed a week. See if you were doing this every week it would easier for me to track. [00:03:09]
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: Because I have it on automatic throw it into Quicken.
THERAPIST: Okay. Alright. I will try to be better about billing (ph) you every week.
CLIENT: Would it be easier for me to send you a check for a hundred every week?
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: Okay. So don't charge anything.
THERAPIST: (laughs) Okay, I won't. I'm just laughing because, yeah, I think I get the idea that if you send me a check that I don't get to charge you anything (laughs) on top of that.
CLIENT: Well, you know, I'm just Your business acumen hasn't really jumped out at me.
THERAPIST: (laughs) Actually, I'm good at math and numbers, I just hate billing.
CLIENT: Who doesn't. Yeah. That's why I like the accounting biz. So little of my practice is billing. I've got to get better about it.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. Alright, so we'll do it that way. And I will, I'll send you something with the dates. (pause) I think it turned out there were May was kind of a long month because it started in the middle of the week. so that may count for some of it. Whatever. It's easy for me to (inaudible at 00:04:46) and just list out the dates.
CLIENT: If I'm lucky I'll go through it but, you know. So there will be a delay in the checks because from the point I initiate until -
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: I will try and issue them early so they can get there.
THERAPIST: Okay. And so then if we miss an appointment -
CLIENT: I can always cancel payments.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I'm paying you in arrears, is that correct?
THERAPIST: What does that mean?
CLIENT: Like I said, your business acumen (makes whooshing sound). I'm paying you after the service has been rendered. So I'm behind.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: In other words, I'm not paying you in advance.
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: Like with your mortgage you pay your interest in arrears. It accumulates and then you pay it. So I was really crazy anxious yesterday. [00:05:58]
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: You know? And I don't know if you have you in the new bill pay. We'll see. If not, I'll just put "pay Dr." (pause) So I'll initiate that starting Friday and so you'll get it at some point next week.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I should make this a recurring payment. (pause) I don't have much to talk today. So, (inaudible whisper at 00:06:53). Of course, I always think that and then, you know, it takes four business days to deliver it. It's not giving me a recurring option. (pause) Well, I'll at least get the first one in there. Maybe it will ask me afterwards. (pause)
So you have at least one coming to you. It takes four business days so you'll probably have it by Thursday. Is that fine?
THERAPIST: Sure.
CLIENT: I mean, you wouldn't actually charge it until three weeks later anyway.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But Thursday is going to be for the prior week.
THERAPIST: That's fine.
CLIENT: Assuming the six hundred included everything up until last, included last week.
THERAPIST: Yes, it did. [00:08:20]
CLIENT: Okay. But, yeah, I've been really anxious Sunday and Monday. And in fact I took a klonopin. And, of course, it all revolved around Marcia. And it was all just like Like yesterday it was kind of the same thing. It was like I just had this sort of impression she was being distant. You know? And maybe nonresponsive to something or just whatever.
And (coughing) part of it was that I said, "Do you want to do " This was maybe Sunday or Saturday, I was like, "Do you want to do something Monday?" And she always responds with, you know, "We'll see," or, you know, she never commits to something unless there is like actually something going on. [00:09:20]
So that I anticipated and then yesterday morning I asked her and I didn't hear back, which I'm assuming that probably means, "no," or she's busy or, you know, or she doesn't know. And just throughout the day I assumed that she didn't, you know, that we weren't going to meet. I was like, "Why don't you come to handball?"
And I was expecting her to say, "Oh," you know, find some reason not to. You know? But then I was hoping at least she would say something, like something nice or whatever. You know, "I want to see you," or, you know. But she said, "Yeah," she'd come to handball. (laughs)
And then I go back and I'm reading all the texts and my recollection that, I'm not remembering responses in things she says. You know. (phone ringing) It's just weird. I mean I know I'm presuming (phone ringing) I've got to pay my loans so they stop fucking calling me. I owe like two hundred dollars on my student loan and I haven't been paying it. (laughs) [00:10:33]
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: And they just keep calling me every day. If they were smart, they would do what most people do and do different numbers from around the country. But I know when it comes from Muncie, Indiana that it's probably them.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So I'm presuming that a lot of this has to do with coming down on the Prozac.
THERAPIST: [You're back on Prozac?] (ph)
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: (laughs) So you went back and reread the series of texts and -
CLIENT: Over the period of time that I felt like she was being distant and nonresponsive and giving me reason to be concerned that something was -
THERAPIST: Right. And on rereading them it actually did not seem concerning.
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: Okay. I wanted to make sure I got that.
CLIENT: So we went out for her birthday.
THERAPIST: Right. [00:11:33]
CLIENT: And I got a little too drunk, so I don't kind of remember certain things. You know? My usual problem, which she pointed out on Monday, I didn't have that problem. So Monday apparently when she was having her period that I was able to (snapping sound), you know, (laughs) (snapping sounds) Which, I don't know.
THERAPIST: But then you did have that problem (sound of some kind of cell phone alert) when you went out later in the week.
CLIENT: Friday, yeah.
THERAPIST: Friday.
CLIENT: Yeah. You know. It's hard for me to gage this. You know? Because, I mean, there's obviously some disappointment and frustration but it doesn't seem to be like excessive or really -
THERAPIST: You mean your own disappointment.
CLIENT: Her own.
THERAPIST: Hers.
CLIENT: Then I guess maybe I Because she asked me a couple of times if was okay, the next I was kind of drunk so I don't remember, and that might have been the problem, that we had too much to drink. I don't know. But, you know [00:12:51]
THERAPIST: Maybe you're really nervous about having sex with her.
CLIENT: Maybe.
THERAPIST: I wonder if that's part of why you drank a lot.
CLIENT: No. I mean, part of?
THERAPIST: Yeah. In that -
CLIENT: She has said that when she's come over that I seem nervous. I did a shot of Jameson before she came over so I wouldn't be nervous. (pause)
THERAPIST: Um.
CLIENT: That was probably instead of the klonopin because I know if I did a klonopin I wouldn't be able to drink very much before I (inaudible at 00:13:40).
THERAPIST: Yeah, I know, because you told me Friday morning that you were expecting you guys would have sex that night. And I -
CLIENT: Well it's just, you know, there wasn't like a And usually I start out with some beers and then maybe I'll start having a cocktail or whatever. But I started out with, you know, a Manhattan and then I went and had a scorpion bowl. You know? (laughs) It just went all downhill. You know? I mean, so yeah. I don't know. What do I do about that? Do I need to see a sex therapist? Are you a sex therapist? We're not going to have sex, are we?
THERAPIST: Uh.
CLIENT: Sam (ph) texted me accidently when she was meaning to text someone else about this woman Sara's party, and I wasn't invited to Sara's party. So, you know, I said, "I wasn't aware that Sara was having a party." And she's like, "Oh, wrong person." [00:14:51]
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: So then I texted (laughs), "Yeah, I'm totally up for gay sex tonight." And then I wrote, "Whoops, wrong person." (laughs)
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: And she goes, "It's interesting that you call it 'gay' sex.'" Of course I called it "gay sex" for her benefit and not the person that I supposedly was texting with. If it was the person I was supposedly texting I wouldn't say, "You and I are going to have 'gay' sex." You know what I mean?
THERAPIST: I get it.
CLIENT: You know, because any sex we had would be gay.
THERAPIST: Right. Right. Yeah, and the point was to differentiate it from saying you're up for sex with her.
CLIENT: Yeah, so I don't know. (pause) I was going to ask Micah for some, you know, medical help, pharmaceutical help. Which is kind of, I don't know, anxiety producing in and of itself. Because I'm forty three and I feel like maybe, you know, it should be like guys in their fifties and sixties. [00:16:06]
THERAPIST: Yeah, I think you're nervous about having sex with Marcia.
CLIENT: So, okay. What about it? What do we do? Am I fucked? At some point she's going to be like, "Alright, this is ridiculous." I wouldn't blame her. (pause) I mean it has been over three years.
THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess was sort of imagining (ph) some things.
CLIENT: And that was once in a blue moon.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know? What's your point? You're imagining -
THERAPIST: It's been a while. It's been a long while since you've been with somebody new. I don't know because we haven't talked about whether that's something that you've been worried or insecure about in the past. And there could be fifteen different ways it could make you nervous. You know? It could be that you're afraid she'll be [00:17:41]
CLIENT: Disappointed?
THERAPIST: Disappointed. You could be worried that it will bring you closer. You could be worried that she'll disappoint you.
CLIENT: She's already done that. But that's fine.
THERAPIST: How so?
CLIENT: Well she's just not very I seem to be doing all the work.
THERAPIST: She what?
CLIENT: I seem to be doing all the work.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. You know, (pause) I can sit here and sort of speculate or list out the things I guess it could be. Or you could tell me what you think.
CLIENT: (sigh)
THERAPIST: But I think it makes you nervous and ashamed to talk about.
CLIENT: Yeah. Pretty anxious.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: This whole thing has been very, you know. It's not like I'm anxious about it during the course of the day or, you know, anything like that. [00:19:11]
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah.
CLIENT: It's not like this idea that Marcia is going to dump me at any moment because she didn't, you know, text me within five seconds. You know?
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Which is bizarre because I've always been this anti, you know, respond to someone right away. But it's become the nature of my job and now this whole texting thing -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: You know, you used to call and leave a voice-mail and then she would call and leave a voice-mail and, you know.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But now it's just like, you know, I know she has her phone and I know she got the text and, you know. But anyway, back to my (sigh) (pause) Well I guess there's an expectation on my part of how it should be and then very often isn't. You know? [00:20:30]
THERAPIST: How should it be?
CLIENT: I don't know. You know, longer than five seconds. Fifteen. You know, things like that. You know.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Screaming, back scratching, you know. (laughs) (pause)
THERAPIST: Like intense, passionate with a rainbow kind of thing?
CLIENT: Throw away the rainbow and maybe put, you know, like an anarchy -
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: written in blood from my back.
THERAPIST: I see. Yeah.
CLIENT: (laughs) Well that's what the hair is for. (pause) And it's cutting into my repertoire because she was pointing out, you know, making fun of the amount of hair on my back. And my immediate joke to that is, you know, "That would give you something to grab onto." But I've been shying away from sexual kind of things. (sigh) (pause) [00:21:50]
So you take away the pedophile jokes, I mean that's half the repertoire right there. You know? Now we're cutting into another eighth of what the half.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Because there's the pedophile and sex jokes. So there's probably like a quarter. (pause)
THERAPIST: And she is kind of disappointing? Like she doesn't do much? She doesn't know what she's doing?
CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, she doesn't do much. You know, yeah. It was funny because Monday she, on the larger scheme of things, did more. Which was probably because, you know, I had a boner. So maybe that had something to do with it. I don't know. But it's not like, you know, no oral sex. [00:23:12]
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And very little anything else, you know?
THERAPIST: Do things end up okay?
CLIENT: What do you mean?
THERAPIST: Did you have an orgasm?
CLIENT: Me? No. You mean on Monday?
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: No, not even close.
THERAPIST: Oh, okay.
CLIENT: Not even close.
THERAPIST: Because it was like you were aroused but not enough, or because she -
CLIENT: She didn't go there. She didn't, you know, there was no effort.
THERAPIST: So you guys were probably making out, you were aroused and she -
CLIENT: pawed at it every once in a while.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: (laughs)
THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) And (pause) what are the other things that you are worried about about having sex with her? Do you know? (pause) [00:24:57]
CLIENT: What else is there? (pause) There's no disease worry or -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: pregnancy.
THERAPIST: There's your performance, there's her performance, there's the intimacy, there's -
CLIENT: I'm not worried about the intimacy.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. (pause)
CLIENT: So I hear there's a magic pill for this. Well, it doesn't help performance really, if that be the case. [00:26:02]
THERAPIST: I mean it can help you get an erection but -
CLIENT: that's about it.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Has she said much about what she likes or what she would like actually?
CLIENT: She doesn't get much out of, you know, her boobs. So while there's something there it's not overly exciting. (pause)
THERAPIST: Has she said much about orgasms for her? Like how easy or difficult it is? (pause) This sucks to talk about huh? [00:27:08]
(long pause)
THERAPIST: I think it's likely that the more you can take a risk and try to talk about some of this stuff here, the easier it will be to take risks with her. [00:28:13]
CLIENT: What do you mean by "risks?"
THERAPIST: With her? To do things that make you anxious. Like, I don't know exactly where the difficulty is but, you know, initiating something. My hunch is that, I'm not sure about this, but at least partly you did sabotage it a bit on Friday by drinking too much because you were worried that you wouldn't get aroused, or maybe about something else. (pause)
CLIENT: That would have had to been on a subconscious level because I really wasn't aware of it. [00:29:13]
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know? I think there was the initial anxiety, which I really didn't necessarily think was the case. But I think maybe just, you know, maybe I was stiff or, you know, whatever, didn't know what to say. You know, I don't know. I've never had this problem, you know, meeting her elsewhere.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: But, you know, so I did have some Jameson. For that initial -
THERAPIST: Yeah, I am saying (ph) that it was there and it was unconscious. I mean, clearly you're not saying, "Oh, I know I was "
CLIENT: Subconscious or unconscious?
THERAPIST: Unconscious, yeah.
CLIENT: What's the difference?
THERAPIST: Subconscious is actually a word that's used in psychoanalytic or psychodynamic therapy.
CLIENT: Then I'll stop using that then.
THERAPIST: Yeah, clearly you were aware, I think, of being worried about having sex with her, but you weren't aware of trying to avoid it, if that's what you were doing. So, yeah, if you were trying to avoid it it was unconscious. [00:30:26]
CLIENT: But we'll never know will we?
THERAPIST: Nope.
CLIENT: You suck. (pause)
THERAPIST: We'll never know about that one but it will help, you know -
CLIENT: Yeah, one more data point.
THERAPIST: Yeah, essentially. I mean if you can go out and find that you're, you know, going out to a movie and you're really excited, but the next three times that you're supposed to go back to your apartment something happens that gets in the way. You know, more data points. The other thing is -
CLIENT: Now I'm definitely going to be consciously anxious. Thank you. So what do I do about that? Talk, notice it, pay attention to it, get back on klonopin. I mean, do you think it would be helpful? Well I was on Prozac full boar (ph) at the start of this fiasco, you know. (pause) (sigh) [00:32:09]
THERAPIST: This is just embarrassing? Would it be easier if you were talking to a woman?
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: More difficult?
CLIENT: Yeah. Well I know you, you know.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: I think of you as, is androgynous the correct word?
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: I always mix up those terms. Is that what I'm looking for?
THERAPIST: Androgynous means "not gendered."
CLIENT: Yes. I think of you as androgynous.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: Anything -
THERAPIST: That's pretty harsh.
CLIENT: What's that?
THERAPIST: That's pretty harsh.
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:32:45) You know, never mind.
THERAPIST: No, go ahead.
CLIENT: I was going to say, but if I had to pick a gender -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: it would be metrosexual.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:33:01) metrosexual.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: And I don't know what kind of car you drive. (pause) Spiky hair. (pause) Was that harsh really?
THERAPIST: To tell somebody that you find them to be androgynous? Yeah.
CLIENT: Well it's more of a relationship thing. I know you're a man. You know, there's nothing you've done that disproves that -
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: or makes me question that or, you know, I didn't mean it in an emasculating sort of way.
THERAPIST: (laughs)
CLIENT: You know? It may come across as emasculating.
THERAPIST: (laughs) Uh huh.
CLIENT: But I don't think of you as the type of person who gets emasculated. And that's why I think you're androgynous.
THERAPIST: Hm.
CLIENT: Because it's part of your job to be questioned and so I wouldn't think you would take that stuff personally. [00:34:04]
THERAPIST: Well I didn't actually take it personally.
CLIENT: I mean, I initially, when people say things to me -
THERAPIST: I said, "It sounded harsh."
CLIENT: you know, like the crazy woman who said I was desperate, I think initially. And I was like, "You're fucking dumb." And, you know, I'm laughing to the bank here. You know?
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: So that happens all the time with me where people, you know, say stuff about me and, you know, it just doesn't It's what people do [to accountants] (ph). No one's ever called me androgynous before, but I like to think that that's my goal. You know?
THERAPIST: Huh. Like (pause)
CLIENT: Well, the very thing that you're talking about. Would you prefer to talk to a woman about this? Would you prefer to have a woman lawyer for your divorce? You know, those kind of decisions are made but I'm not that type of, you know, attorney. No one is hiring me based on my gender for anything I do. [00:35:06]
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Well, people sometimes do hire me because of my gender. Somebody who sort of wants to talk to, you know.
CLIENT: Do you know how you got stuck with me? Did we ever talk about this? (pause)
THERAPIST: I think we did, yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: [I think you got to me through an accountant.] (ph)
CLIENT: Doctor, hm, tell me how that feels or Clapton (ph) gave Jess some names. And of the names she liked you, though I don't think she likes you anymore.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You had some specialty or work with children -
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: which she thought would be helpful. Which I disagreed with at the time, but I disagreed with going to a therapist whatever.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: You know?
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So, you know. Yeah, I'm going to go a therapist and all we're going to do is talk about how we're going to fix my kid. [00:36:13]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I don't know where we've gone with all this.
THERAPIST: I think somewhere pretty far away from talking about sex.
CLIENT: Yeah. It's what I do best. Yeah, yeah. I've had good days, I've had bad days. You know. Probably more bad than good. Or maybe I just remember those more, or (pause) I have a lot of specific remembrances. But I don't know. (pause) Do these shoes go with these pants? Are they too casual for these pants? [00:37:47]
THERAPIST: Are you asking me because I'm a metrosexual?
CLIENT: I am, yeah. (pause) There was even points yesterday where I was like, "You know, well, you know, if she does dump you, whatever, you'll have to move on," kind of thoughts.
THERAPIST: Mm hm.
CLIENT: Like what would you do? Some back up plan. (inaudible at 00:38:24) On deck. (ph) (pause) This fraternity, before they made them stop, they used to have a fundraiser called "Slugfest" which was a big boxing match. You know? And one year their slogan, which was on their T-shirts, was, "She can't wrestle but you should see her box." (pause)
I got a ticket last week, Friday. I had three coins, three quarters sitting on my spot where I would put the quarters to take and put in my car. Well they were in my pocket so I said, "Well, I'll leave them there so when I get out I'll just put them in the meter. So I grabbed three quarters from my car because I had to go to make some copies (sound of a cell phone alert) so I put an extra quarter in. And apparently I forgot to put the quarters that were in my pocket. [00:39:50]
THERAPIST: In the meter?
CLIENT: In the meter. (pause) (sigh) I figure I'm enjoying (inaudible at 00:40:17), because life is starting to suck again. [It's keeping me employed for a little longer.] (ph) I guess I'd be a bad therapist in that respect because I wouldn't want to hear anyone. (pause) I don't seem to be depressed about any of this stuff. At least I'm, you know, chalking it up to anxiety. [00:41:08]
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Yeah.
CLIENT: I mean really I feel it in my stomach.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: You know? And I can't get it out of my mind kind of stuff. Now the sex is going to be there, but it wasn't there before. Thank you.
THERAPIST: Mm hm. Well that's alright because now you'll pay attention more to how you're affected by it. You'll be able to notice [pretty well.] (ph)
CLIENT: So you want me to notice first and then take action?
THERAPIST: When something happens, yes. We need to stop.
CLIENT: (sigh) Alright. Don't charge me.
THERAPIST: Don't forget your copy.
CLIENT: Thank you.
THERAPIST: Sure.
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