TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Good morning.
CLIENT: Good morning. (PAUSE) I don't know. Not much on my mind this morning. (PAUSE) I don't know. I guess it's just more like, I don't know, feeling stuck and... Like for Thanksgiving, I'm going to Vicki's (ph) because her parents invited me and Vicki invited me. And, I don't know, I guess... Like I'd been there... [00:00:57]
I've gone to their Thanksgiving four years in a row or something like that and I like it. It's fine. But then I was like, "I don't know. This is..." (LAUGHTER) I guess I was thinking like, "Oh, I'm just like repeating behavior. Do I need to, you know, make a change?" I don't know. Like I need to get out of this or, I don't know, do something for myself. (inaudible) I don't know. Should I do something different like in general, not just going to Thanksgiving? And... I don't know. (PAUSE) Yeah. And I don't know why I get the urge to like, I don't know, when I'm trying to like think of ways to make myself better it's always like, "Yeah. I need to, I don't know, break ties. [00:02:01]
Like shut, like people out, like Vicki or Mike (ph) maybe." I don't know. And I think it's because I, I don't know, like I think maybe I'll never get out of this if, yeah, you know, doing the same thing with the same people. I don't know.
THERAPIST: Like that's become part of the rut for you?
CLIENT: Right. And it's not like... I don't know. I guess moreso with Vicki because we have a lot of history there. For some reason I always did the... Yeah. Like I should just shut her out. But I have, you know, I guess I do have a good time with her.
THERAPIST: Uh huh.
CLIENT: And I enjoy seeing her family. I don't know.
(PAUSE) [00:03:00]
CLIENT: I think... (PAUSE) I guess, yeah, I don't know what I should change or why I feel (inaudible). I don't know.
(PAUSE) [00:03:55]
THERAPIST: I wonder if you tend to feel both sides of lots of things very intensely. Like both the desire to go see Vicki and be with she and her family for Thanksgiving... And I imagine feel like it's sort of familiar and comfortable. And at the same time, I guess I have a sense that you feel worried you'll get stuck or it will contribute to kind of the rut you're in and you should be branching out and, you know, in some ways that relationship should be more in the past or something like that. [00:05:07]
CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. (PAUSE) I don't know if I like... I don't know if I'm like trying to put like blame on Vicki or... I don't know. I think maybe I'm just trying to be like... I don't want to be dependent on her like, you know, it's like, yeah. Self-sufficient or something. I don't know. I don't know. I think... [00:05:57]
I guess, yeah, like maybe relying on her too much for plans or... I mean... I don't know. Yeah. Or, I guess, yeah, just sort of relying on her for what to do for Thanksgiving because (inaudible at 00:06:21) yeah. And maybe I'll... Yeah, I think that like... I don't know. (PAUSE) Or I shouldn't rely on her to have a good time or... I don't know. I wish I could to that for myself or... I don't know. [00:07:01]
THERAPIST: So is it that you're ambivalent on the ways that you depend on her (inaudible) on the other hand it sort of bothers you that you do?
CLIENT: Right. I don't know. (PAUSE) Like when I talked to her on the phone... Like often I'll go visit her ? she'll come here or whatever or, you know, she'll come. Whatever. We'll do stuff together and I don't know, I feel like I'm telling her how I feel, like, "You know, I've been down this week or work sucks, blah, blah, blah." [00:08:01]
She always says, "We'll have a good time this weekend. Or, you know, I'll be in town. You'll come for Thanksgiving." I don't know. It's kind of like, I don't know, just, I don't know. I shouldn't be like waiting for her to, I guess, have a good time. I don't know. I hate that I like... I don't know. I don't know if I'm just being critical or like I could get excited to hang out with a friend. But I guess there's a sense of waiting it out to see her again. Like waiting out, you know, I just have to like hold on until I see her again, I guess. And then I wish I could, you know, I guess make change so I'm not waiting out every day until I see her again or, yeah. [00:09:11]
THERAPIST: You really miss her.
CLIENT: I'm not... Yeah. (LAUGHTER) I don't resent her a lot, I guess.
THERAPIST: Absolutely.
CLIENT: Yeah. I think it's because when, you know, we do see each other or visiting each other it's always like we're together all the time and there's no, you know, being alone and, yeah, I'm comfortable, you know, or I'm not tired out like spending a lot of crazy time with her, I guess. [00:10:03]
THERAPIST: My impression is there's something really reassuring and calming in a way.
CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) I don't know. Yeah. I guess it's because things are a lot easier and... (PAUSE) I don't know. But again, yeah, I don't want to kind of be dependent on her for that feeling, I guess, or... [00:11:01]
THERAPIST: Yeah and my impression is you kind of resent the hell out of this situation.
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: As much as that is the situation.
CLIENT: Right. (PAUSE) I was thinking about, yeah, like the same thing with Mike and when we used to hang out kind of... I don't know.
(PAUSE) [00:12:00]
CLIENT: I don't know if like, you know... Yeah, I was just kind of like waiting or always open to hang out or do something... I don't know. I guess for, yeah, because I enjoy his company but also so I wouldn't be alone. I wish, yeah, like I took more initiative to, I don't know, do different things or hang out with different people or... I don't know.
THERAPIST: I see. So is it like... It's almost like these kind of relationship where you're very close and comfortable like stand directly in the way of your being able to kind of develop yourself in this important way where you can branch out more and... [00:13:09]
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: ...kind of get out there in various ways with activities and people and...
CLIENT: Right. Or I don't know if I'm like just letting them dictate, I don't know, what I'm doing or what my interests are. I don't know.
THERAPIST: I see. Like you're kind of shaping yourself around them in certain ways?
CLIENT: Right. But I think it's just I'm kind of a person who's open to a lot of things. Like...
(PAUSE) [00:14:00]
CLIENT: Like Mike was really into hockey so we'd watch hockey which was fine. I didn't like hate it. (LAUGHTER) Just stuff like that but I wasn't like... I didn't become this avid hockey fan. It was just something we did. I don't know.
THERAPIST: Do you worry about this happening with therapy or with me?
CLIENT: No. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) No. I guess it's more like I don't know what my interests are and I guess my happiness. I don't know. [00:14:57]
THERAPIST: I see. Like, you know, because Mike likes hockey, you guys are going to spend some time watching hockey and so it sort of avoids the question of what you would want to watch or...
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: ...you know, what you...
CLIENT: Or the fact that I'm... Well the thing is I don't have something I want to watch (inaudible).
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: ...to be distracted or around people. And, I don't know, with Vicki... I met her when I did have interests or more interests than I have now when I was more of a whole person. [00:15:55]
And then we started so, you know, or course a lot of interests got shared or were influenced by each other. And then... So now that we're, I don't know, broken up or not around each other... I don't know. I don't know if I'm clinging on to her because there's like... I don't know. Yeah, if I like... Yeah. It just reminds me of my old self or... I don't know. I feel... (PAUSE) But, yeah, but I watch her and, you know, her dental school life and, you know... [00:17:05]
THERAPIST: I see. Does her, the kind of fullness of her life or the full aspect of it, like being in dental school, make you feel worse about the way that you kind of need her?
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's... (LAUGHTER) It's (inaudible) resenting her because, you know, we used to... Yeah. But, yeah, it's also jealousy like for like how does she do it? How does she...
(PAUSE) [00:18:00]
CLIENT: I don't know. But I think I wonder that about a lot of people like how to they... I don't know. Yeah, just like meet people and kind of fill in these areas of their life? I don't know. I don't know if I'm just, I don't know, scared or it's not in my personality to, I don't know, dictate my life. I don't know.
(PAUSE) [00:19:00]
CLIENT: I guess, yeah, I just wish I wasn't so nervous or, I don't know, scared to talk to people or...
THERAPIST: My impression... I mean, this is sort of a bigger picture way of talking about this is that, you know, this kind of (inaudible) depression that you're in the grip of in combination with some things about your personality are really getting in the way, that this is not something fundamental and unchangeable about who you are or what you got dealt. But that...
(PAUSE) [00:20:41]
THERAPIST: ...there are some workable things about your personality, things that you've always, I think, been vulnerable to around self-direction and things like that. [00:21:11]
That are sort of, that you're having more trouble with now sort of, you know, probably because your stage of life and partly because the nature of the depression you're in that are making this difficult. I guess my point there is not to be so specific about the dynamics of like the depression on your personality per se. [00:21:57]
But like more to say like I don't think this is fundamental or unchangeable about who you are but relates to (inaudible) things about your personality, things about this depression are kind of converging in your life these days to, you know, pretty dramatically impair your ability to make decisions, to feel motivated, to feel whole hearted, things like that. [00:22:43]
CLIENT: I don't know, yeah, what stems from because I'm trying to think when I first entered like college and, I don't know, like one of my regrets is that I didn't talk to more professors or see more deans or just kind of take the initiative because they were there. I don't know. I think it was just because I was scared. I didn't know, like, yeah, what to say. I don't know. Maybe like... Yeah. I always had like doubt of, you know, that I could do well at school. I didn't want them to confirm that, yeah, I wasn't going to do well or that, yeah, I shouldn't be there.
(PAUSE) [00:24:00]
Because, yeah, like when I, when I got to school or whatever, I had this... Because I come from a very white public school, you know, in Idaho which I think is like forty in education. (LAUGHTER) But I had this expectation like how hard it was going to be and blah, blah, blah. But it actually wasn't (inaudible) it wasn't ever as hard as I thought it was going to be and I was telling my softball coach that an she like held it over my head (inaudible)
THERAPIST: I hear school's not that hard.
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: Yeah but that's my regret that I didn't, I don't know, talk to professors. [00:25:03]
THERAPIST: (inaudible) understand. So like the school work, I imagine it wasn't easy. I imagine it took some effort but that wasn't as impossible or...
CLIENT: Right. Well I guess, yeah, I had like this weird expectation that, you know, it would be, yeah, just like how like TV or movies represent like I'd be studying all the time. I would need tutors or whatever. But, you know, it was hard. But, you know, I did fine.
THERAPIST: So the thing that got in your way wasn't so much the reality of how difficult it was. Although that probably did require effort. But was your anxiety in that you sort of worried in a way that made it difficult to take initiative to reach out to more professors or... [00:26:15]
CLIENT: Right. Because, I don't know, I mean, it's just the way... I don't know. (PAUSE) I think it's because I didn't... Like I didn't know what I wanted. Like if I went to go talk to a professor, like, "Oh, what can I do with a neuroscience degree?" And he'd be like, "Oh, you can do anything." I don't know. It's because I didn't have, you know, an idea of what I wanted and I don't know. I guess it's more like I didn't have, or didn't know what I wanted and I couldn't, you know, just carry a, you know, conversation because I didn't have much to say. [00:26:55]
THERAPIST: Uh huh. I also have this idea, which may not be true, that like in high school between academics and softball, you weren't exactly taking a lot of initiative over what you were doing. Like your mom, from what I understand was pushing the softball pretty hard. And that's not to say you didn't like it or like things about it, you know, or weren't motivated yourself as well. But I don't have the impression it was something you really had a choice about or was based mostly on your own initiative so much as it was on hers. [00:02:53]
And maybe similarly in school. Like I'm not saying you didn't like it or you didn't want to do well in your own right but at least from what I hear about high school, you know, like your parents wanted you to do well, your teachers. There was a lot of structure, you know, those, they assigned work in such a way that it kind of keeps you engaged and all the different things to do. I guess my point being here that though I know you were motivated in both of those areas, they weren't areas which required a lot of initiative on your part in the sense that you were also being pushed or at the very least being provided with lots of structure.
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: And my impression is that softball in college was pretty similar. You actually said you didn't want to do it.
CLIENT: Right. [00:28:57]
THERAPIST: (inaudible) again, I'm not saying that means you're unhappy all the times you were doing it or you didn't get a lot out of it in some ways. But you have pretty big external source of motivation and structure in your coach and maybe your mom as well.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I... Yeah. I wanted to quit. I don't know.
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: (inaudible) sort of a thought experiment. I wonder what it would have been like if your mom, and some parents do, you know, have the same fervor for you going to med school as she did for softball. [00:30:01]
You know? Like, "I don't care what you got. I don't care what the dean said. You are going and you are applying and, you know, here's what you have to do and this is what I want..." I don't know how she sounds. Probably nothing like what I'm saying but...
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) ...but you know what I mean.
CLIENT: Right. Well, I guess, yeah, sports is all she knew and, or what she loved and...
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: I don't know. And I used to say, like, you know, they never pushed my brother and I to like go to study a certain topic or a certain thing or...
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: ...or any, you know, school was always very like, "Are you doing alright?" "Yeah." So, yeah, there wasn't that push. But...
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: Was your mom an athlete?
CLIENT: Yeah. She never really played softball though.
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)
CLIENT: She played basketball and field hockey.
THERAPIST: Was she good? [00:31:01]
CLIENT: Yeah. I guess, yeah. She played in college as well and I guess, you know, it was in the seventies so there was not a lot of women's sports. I don't know. (PAUSE) I don't, yeah, I don't really know why it means so much to her. I think she just enjoys competition. But, yeah, I agree that there wasn't push on, yeah, studying anything in particular.
(PAUSE) [00:32:00]
CLIENT: But, I mean, I wasn't completely compliant the whole time. I used to be a pitcher and I couldn't handle it anymore. My arm was hurting all the time and I think like just the two positions I played it was very hard to do both.
THERAPIST: Pitching and shortstop.
CLIENT: Right. And so there, I guess there was always this big, there was this big exposure tournament every year and we, our team would always go. And right before the tournament, she wanted me to go to this pitching camp. I guess, whatever, to practice my skills and I said I didn't want to go because, you know, it would be pitching for hours a day. I couldn't handle it. My arm would kill me and I didn't want to do it. [00:33:09]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And... But she made me do it anyway. But then when I got to the game I was in so much pain. I don't know (inaudible) I like refused. And one time they did put me out there and I took myself out of the game. Yeah, I mean... And then I quit pitching because it was just too crazy. I was too much, yeah. She blamed it all on my boyfriend on the time. It was funny. (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) I was like, "No, it's all you."
THERAPIST: On your boyfriend, huh?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Was he even there? [00:33:59]
CLIENT: Was he what?
THERAPIST: Was he even there?
CLIENT: No. (LAUGHTER) I don't know. Yeah. So, yeah, I was... I didn't completely comply. I don't know. But... And I, I mean, I did quit after my freshman year in college but came back my junior year.
THERAPIST: Oh, I didn't realize you didn't play sophomore year.
CLIENT: No. What I did is, yeah, I just took more classes. I don't know. But then I was missing my like, yeah, my friends. Like all the people I knew from freshman year were playing.
THERAPIST: Right. [00:34:57]
CLIENT: But, I mean, it was still good. I guess it was different. But I came back my junior year because a good friend of mine played, who took over my position after that, she broke her ankle. And the coaches asked me to come back and Vicki was on the team and I was, I don't know, starting with her. So I was like, "Why not?" to spend more time with her. And then senior year was asked to be a captain which I thought was hilarious because I got a lot of shit. Like, "Why are they asking her when she quit?" (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER) So the coaches asked you to be a captain?
CLIENT: Yeah. It was me and Vicki and the girl who broke her ankle.
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: Because we were all seniors at that time.
THERAPIST: Uh huh. And who gave you... The other players gave you shit?
CLIENT: Right. All the younger ones. Mostly the ones who were freshman and when I was a sophomore and, you know...
THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:36:05]
CLIENT: And they knew me because, you know, I know like most of the other softball players.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: They knew my story.
THERAPIST: You mean just that you had played freshman year and and then quit?
CLIENT: Right.
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: (inaudible) run laps?
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) No (inaudible) they were so up in arms about it. I actually had to do more crap, clean up more after the (inaudible). (LAUGHTER) I don't know. So... (PAUSE) I don't know.
(PAUSE) [00:37:00]
CLIENT: Yeah. But I, I mean, I had interests. I had, you know... I did other things (inaudible) at school... (LAUGHTER) Or outside of softball. But... I don't know. I don't know why I can't go on to my interests or make new ones or...
THERAPIST: Yeah. I just want to be clear. I know how it sounds. I'm not saying you were a puppet or that all of your interests were dictated to you. It sounds like in a lot of ways you were going better. You kind of felt better (inaudible) take initiative, talking to people.
CLIENT: Umm...
THERAPIST: (inaudible). [00:38:05]
CLIENT: Right. I mean, I also... I wasn't, yeah. I guess... (PAUSE) Not like go out of my way to talk to my professor. I don't know. I was always not like that.
THERAPIST: My impression is that (inaudible) is like pretty significant like exacerbation or worsening of things that were difficult.
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: And that you're also missing, you know, some of the kind of structure and people who would push you and who you didn't always comply with but who were there in that way. [00:39:09]
CLIENT: I don't think I miss it. I just wish I could, I don't know, take over that role of dictating my life. I don't think I miss it.
THERAPIST: Absolutely. Yeah and I'm not saying you want your mom to start calling you up and bugging you about med school. (LAUGHTER)
CLIENT: (LAUGHTER)
THERAPIST: (inaudible) you have to do that.
CLIENT: Right.
THERAPIST: No, it sounds like what you want now and, I don't know if it came up then, is to be able to kind of take the initiative and make the decisions and follow through with them yourself.
CLIENT: Right. But, yeah, I guess there's a block when it comes to knowing what I want or expressing what I do feel. I don't know. Because maybe... (LAUGHTER) [00:40:07]
I don't know if it was because I was always playing softball most of the time if there was always just kind of like what I wanted or what I was like thinking about was how much I want to play or like I didn't like the coach at school. No one liked her but all my opinions or thoughts weren't as negative. I don't know. (PAUSE) Or critical?
THERAPIST: Hmm.
(PAUSE)
CLIENT: Especially in softball. [00:41:01]
(PAUSE)
THERAPIST: You were very critical of the coach (inaudible) and the way things were done.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah and she was, yeah, everything was, you know, very, or not organized well. Just like, yeah, team practices were a waste of time. I don't know. I was critical of the way other people played or... But, I mean, I think it came from just a place that I knew so much about softball and I had taken lessons and training and I guess other people, you know, didn't have that. So I just felt like I knew so much more or, you know... But... So the whole time I was just kind of like dread, I don't know, or practices or playing games or...
THERAPIST: Oh. [00:42:35]
CLIENT: But...
THERAPIST: Did you say you dreaded them?
CLIENT: Right. Yeah. It was kind of like, you know, I would try to do the best I could do but, you know, just kind of like, "Ugh." You know. And also it's freezing. Like softball is nuts.
THERAPIST: When does the season start?
CLIENT: February.
THERAPIST: Whoa! [00:43:01]
CLIENT: We practice inside during that time but then once March 1 comes, we practice outside. And we travel during March to warmer places which is like North Carolina, which is still cold. We did go to South Carolina and Georgia but still. I don't know. And then April that's like the the League starts in April but it's still cold especially when you play in the dugout. (LAUGHTER) But it was fine. It was more... I mean, I blame more the coach's just the whole aspect of attitude. Like she would pin each other, pin people against each other. I don't know. Yeah.
THERAPIST: We need to stop for now but we'll talk more on Monday. [00:44:03]
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:44:09)
CLIENT: You too.
END TRANSCRIPT
