TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So, I was thinking. I guess why that I kind of like, I don't know, I can't remember my stories very well or kind of like shut down and I think it's because, I don't know, while I'm telling it, I'm like this is pointless. Like, me telling the story. Not me telling the story. The story in itself is pointless and, and like, I don't know. I don't know. I'm just kind of questioning why, you know, I'm bringing this up for. I think I'm bringing it up because I don't, I don't like that I'm bringing it up because I don't want to make it like a, like a big deal or, I don't know. Or, I don't know.

I guess I just don't want to like dwell on it and I don't know. So, while I'm telling it, I kind of feel like oh, why did I bring this up? And, just kind, you know, of I don't know. I don't know if I'm like, yeah, I'm just kind of like wanting to move on from the, you know, the I guess negative things that happened and yeah and then I think like why do I always, like, dwell on the negative things I guess? Or that's what I bring up instead of, you know, other things that have happened. [00:02:00]

THERAPIST: And, my sense is it's like a kind of a, sort of, walking in to a head wind or something? Like, you know, partly you find the story or trying to tell the story and have some impulse to tell the story and then it's kind of like this sort of countering force or something that's saying like what's the point? It's stupid. Just stop. Why am I telling this dumb story or whatever?

CLIENT: Right. Or, yeah. I think also that it's a, like, I, the impulses are I guess the feeling to tell it, but I haven't, you know, thought it all the way through and like made it coherent.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: So, I probably should, you know, mention this, but I guess I make it a clear story in my head so while I'm telling it I guess yeah, kind of like, you know, just like losing wind. Like breaking down. I don't know. [00:03:00]

THERAPIST: I see. It sounds pretty important.

CLIENT: Yeah. I was thinking. I don't know. I don't know. I don't want to be kind of dwelled on I don't know, because I think I like bring these things like on to myself or something. Like, the Vicki situation or, I don't know.

THERAPIST: You mean you don't want to dwell on it because you bring it on yourself? I mean, like, because it's your fault in some way if things are going badly or you're not going to have enough time, so? [00:04:00]

CLIENT: Right. Well, I mean, yeah. Vicki acted like it's my fault and if I was just like happier or I don't know. Not thinking clearly when, you know, that situation ever happened and you know. Yeah. And, I think just like talking about it makes me feel like, I don't know, maybe like guilty or like, I don't know, uneasy because if I, I guess, was, I don't know, like better or like normal and then I don't know kind if that situation would have ever happened essentially.

THERAPIST: So, it sounds like you were talking about things that she did that bothered you or that you were upset by? [00:05:00]

CLIENT: Right. And that I wasn't so, I don't know, um, act like, you know, I don't know, irritable, I guess. I mean, I don't know. It kind of reminds me of like when I first started doing data analysis and I was in a meeting the next day and I was showing my boss like what I was going over and he was like well, you only put this down in a, in the negative aspects of the data. Like, I was, I talked about like how these samples failed and there's, you know, this effect that happens when you run different batches and, and he's like well, what are the positive things? You know, I didn't even think about that. I was like... (laughter)

THERAPIST: Say that again.

CLIENT: I was like, oh. I don't know. Well, I guess because I might have been like the one, because I was new at it, and he kind of just said like, oh, look for this. Look for that. So, I guess I was just kind of in the mind set to like look for what was wrong.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But, but.

THERAPIST: Is it possible that wasn't the only reason you were in the mindset to look for that? Meaning, that that sounds to me like what you're describing with a lot of what you say. I mean, if what you say is the data, then you're sort of, I guess, often as you're saying it or after thinking about what was wrong with it. [00:07:20]

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. I kind of maybe just a quick, I guess, or focus on what's wrong with, you know, me or kind of, I don't know. Most things are, you know, a product of, of me not being, I don't know. Social. I don't know. Or calm or something.

THERAPIST: The way you should be sometimes?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I mean I do it because I'm trying to like get better or trying to like, you know, or do something. I don't know. Like with the data, I was looking for like, because I created it, like where do like, where are my mistakes? And, I wanted to, I guess, find them and, you know, I guess. Yeah, like just see what was wrong. See what I did and kind of like get the shock of, like, oh, I did this wrong over with, I guess. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Because if you can confront that, then maybe you could do it better next time?

CLIENT: Right. [00:09:00]

THERAPIST: And, then you can maybe also preempt somebody else from pointing it out?

CLIENT: Right. I don't know. I think, yeah, just like me analyzing and thinking, is, I don't know, becomes so messy and I know like I don't really have a register for what is like normal, right, or like even why I feel this way. I'm just kind of like, you know, in this kind of a weird state and I can't get out of it sometimes unless, I don't know. I'm distracted or, I don't know, kind of, you know, go to bed and wake up the next day. I don't know. [00:10:00]

THERAPIST: Do you, are you... Sorry. Do you mean like in that kind of critical frame of mind that you're referring to or do you mean something else?

CLIENT: Right. Or, like I'm trying to, like, I guess I'm feeling a lot of like emotions. I'm either sad or really angry or both and I'm trying to analyze like, like, I guess that was like the danger. I was trying to like, I felt like just awful. Like, dread and, you know, I just felt so like confused of why I feel this way and like why our relationship, you know, can't be better or and I don't know. I just kind of feel like lost and like kind of like being like tangled in all these different things and yeah, I've never like sorted it out or like or just be sure what's really going on, maybe. I don't know. And, so, like, you know. Sometimes, like I go to bed and I wake up and I feel like oh, I was just being really tired and emotional or whatever. [00:11:00]

THERAPIST: My hunch is that it's both. That when you feel that way, you're sort of feeling and saying things that are important reflections of the ways that you feel, but that are, for some reason, emerging in a way that feels sort of partial or disorganized. So, that it's hard to make sense of it and it makes you feel confused which may also be kind of, sort of, facilitated by how, by being tired and emotional. I mean both of those things tend to be sort of have a kind of loosening and disorganizing effect, you know. [00:12:15]

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. But, I guess it kind of seems to feel, I don't know. Like, I'm not in control of how I feel or just kind of like, I don't know. It compounds or, I don't know, kind of, you know, I guess it kind of, I don't know. I guess paralyzing is like a strong word, but like, I can't get out of it unless like, I don't know. I either, you know, just like eat a little bit or go and stretch or something. Like, I...

THERAPIST: Like, I think you find that you're kind of in a state.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And, it's kind of a sticky state. And, it takes something like going to sleep or shifting over to something totally different maybe with some outside help, in a way, to get yourself out of it. Like, another activity or talking to somebody or something like that. [00:13:40]

CLIENT: I mean I feel like a, a milder form of the state. Like, at work, I'm busy. I like, you know, like, I have a lot of things to do, but I like have, I mean I do everything, but like just the way I do it. Like, I'm doing this thing and then this thing and I don't know. And then, I don't know. And, then so I get angry at myself because I can't, because I'm doing so many things I can't remember like what I've done. Or, you know, or I feel kind of, kind of like, I guess, maybe a little like anxiety or hyper state and I'm just kind of, you know, shooting e-mails really quickly and just trying to get everything done because I'm trying to remember like what I need to do or I don't know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Like, sort of similar, but not as severe and that's all, like, feel a bit disorganized. A bit over wrought.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's not as bad.

CLIENT: Right. So, I think it's exhausting and then...

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:15:00]

CLIENT: And, then I do all these things and then, like, I do them quickly and then it's kind of like, I don't know, I have, you know, the rest, like, it will be like 2 o'clock and I'm like well, I did everything, or like, you know, things will pop up, but like I'm just like why am I just like? I have the time. I mean, I have a lot of things to do, but, like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Why don't you just like slow down and do it in a more measured way?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Since you'll still be able to get it done during the day.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And you won't feel so crummy.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And, you'll be more easily able to like keep track of things.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, I mean, that's, actually that's my kind of nature, doing things quickly and not faulting, but like, you know, walking or being ready in the morning or I don't know. It's just. [00:16:00]

THERAPIST: Do you mean like you sort of are rushing and pushing to get everything done? You just kind of move fast?

CLIENT: I mean I just move fast and I don't know. I'm like I also get annoyed when like, like, if Vicki's like talking about it. I'm like get it out. So, like I don't know. I don't think I like, I don't know, doing things quickly or whatever. I don't know. [00:17:00]

THERAPIST: I wonder how much this results from the sort of conflicted feelings about doing things or how you're doing things in the first place? In other words, I wonder how much it's in parallel with what you were talking about earlier in terms of telling a story about things in here where there's sort of a part of you that has the impulse to do it and another part of you that's like oh, no, no, no. And, so, I don't know. There's like a kind of a push and at the same time there's like a little bit of, kind of, disorganization or like loss of the ability to remembering things or be clear about things. [00:18:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. I don't know what it is. I think it's because I get like, like nervous about me doing something else. Say I get an e-mail and then I just like kind of get like oh, I need to like answer this and write back like quick. Because maybe I just like get, yeah, get a strong impulse of like oh, I need to tell this person this and just like get it out real quick and then like move on or something instead of like I guess holding on to later. Like, until you have more time to, I don't know, process the information.

THERAPIST: Wait. Sorry. So, you mean you get an e-mail and you're like let me just get the response out quick?

CLIENT: Right. Because I get like a strong, like, impulse. Like, not impulse, but, like flash of thought like I need to list this and this thing and like, you know, yeah, I guess it's kind of like the same with the story. Like, oh, I think there's a lot of good ideas there and then, yeah, as I'm writing it. I don't know. Not, that I was e-mailing, writing e-mail, but just kind of like I get it out quickly and then kind of move on. But, I don't know.

THERAPIST: You mean sort of like a shoot first ask questions later quality to it where you kind of, like in the e-mail, you have all these ideas and like it's sent?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Before you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right. Or, maybe I just get like, I don't know. I don't know. Maybe excited, which is like I don't know. Like, a good kind of feeling. Like I'm trying to think like last night I was doing class and I got a couple of e-mails from work. People asking for things and I don't know. I'm not that great at writing e-mails on my phone. I don't know. You know, it was like why, why don't I just like wait until I get home and write this on the computer?

THERAPIST: Right. [00:20:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. It's like.

THERAPIST: Like where does the pressure come from to get it done right now?

CLIENT: Right. I don't know. Maybe. I don't know. I want to be, I don't know. I don't know. In touch or, I don't know, reliable or something. I don't know. Yeah. You know.

THERAPIST: Does it also feel like you want to get it done before you start questioning or getting critical of how you're doing it?

CLIENT: Not really. I don't know. Like, last night. It was just like one of my, the plot where he was just asking for data that I whatever and I need to be at work to give him the data. I can't like give it to him at home or whatever. I don't even know why I just didn't like total the data to do it. I don't know. I don't know what it is. I guess I just want to be, like, in touch or something. Or, just be like, oh, like, how exactly do you want it? Like, I'll get this to you tomorrow or something. I mean, there's nothing wrong with it that I should like. [00:21:30]

THERAPIST: Is this like, is it sort of like when you kind of don't want them to feel like you looked behind kind of?

CLIENT: Yeah. Especially, if it's like people that, like, I've met or something like that or I don't know.

THERAPIST: Like they know you.

CLIENT: Yeah. So, yeah, it's much easier. I thought maybe I'll get to this later. It's like these outside people that I've never met before.

THERAPIST: And, it sounds like part of what bothers you is that there's like a compulsive quality to it.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You're not exactly thinking in kind of a measured decision to do it. You're just kind of doing it before you even thought about it and you have to do it and are anxious.

CLIENT: I don't know. It's just like, like this impulse is like, I don't know, that I, I'm busy or like I have something to do or something. It's like I feel like I don't know. But, yeah, when I'm talking to someone that I'm connected to. I don't know or something like that, but, I don't know. [00:23:00]

THERAPIST: You mean as opposed to something like you have nothing to do?

CLIENT: Right. Like, I'm excited to have something to do.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: Like, that's why I do it quicker. It's just kind of, I don't know, weird. It's like I don't know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like you feel needed?

CLIENT: Not needed, no. Just kind of like something to do. I don't know what. Like, I feel this way when like I'm doing laundry or like I have to go grocery shopping. Like, I've got to go quickly.

THERAPIST: I see. You're on a mission.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. Like, and that, for some reason, I get more enjoyment out of, I don't know, just doing it than the process, I guess. I don't know. [00:24:00]

THERAPIST: It's like more enjoyment out of like having something to do than getting that thing done and you do have the process of seeing what's in store. Writing an e-mail or whatever it is.

CLIENT: I think it's the, yeah, it makes me feel better if I'm productive or like. I always like, yeah, to get things over with or kind of being productive and not blowing things off. Or, like, constructing them like I did with that data. Like, I mean it's like too much. It's too, like, quick or whatever.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That sort of over rides your experience of doing whatever the thing is that's involved. [00:25:00]

CLIENT: I think, yeah, that's part of it. Like, in the morning, like, I move, you know, quickly when I get out of bed and like shower and go and like and like other people I've lived with or like or my friends are like don't you enjoy taking your time? I'm like no. Like, I need to get to work. Otherwise, I'll just stay home. I don't know what it is. Yeah. And then, you know, and then the irritation comes from like people interrupting me or I don't know. Slow walkers or something. (laughter)

THERAPIST: What the hell is with those people? (laughter) [00:26:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. I think it's because I think yeah, I'll lose steam or like, you know, I don't just...

THERAPIST: I think do it while you still can?

CLIENT: Right. I don't know. I don't know if it's like because I feel like I'm like supposed to be doing these things or like these are... Like, going to work. Doing laundry. You know. Getting away from like, you know, the very task oriented like supposed to be doing these things instead of like I don't know. Like, I guess, I don't know what the enjoyment is or like maybe I get the enjoyment out of, out of having enough to do. I don't know. [00:27:30]

THERAPIST: It like sounds, some of it sounds like managing anxiety. In particular, the worry that you'll be paralyzed and stuck. In other words, if you don't keep it moving in the morning and get the hell out of the shower and get going, that you'll kind of wind up stopping at home and sort of without the activation energy you need to get out of the house.

CLIENT: Right. Or, yeah, kind of, yes, like that feeling of, I guess, being tired and like not knowing what I should do. You know, like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Sounds like it's very hard to keep moving quickly enough that you don't get mired in that or like stuck in that state.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Which is, yeah, it happens. It's clear it feels good in some way just to do things too, but it's like part of it is managing the worry about getting sort of stuck and overwhelmed and shut down. [00:29:00]

CLIENT: You know, I think, yeah, it's like, I don't know. Maybe it's just because I don't want to be, you know, in the environment created. Yeah. To be lazy or not doing anything. That doesn't make sense because I'm able to get all these things done quickly and then, yeah, just kind of sitting there, all things I do quickly and not, you know, thought about it at a different time and then I have time to do nothing.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So. I don't know.

THERAPIST: I take it that it doesn't work very well? [00:30:00]

CLIENT: Right. I don't know. I mean, there are some aspects that I do want to like slow down. Like, doing things at work, but then there's others. Like, getting up in the morning. Like, not that you couldn't do it. Like, I would just like, be like, you know, give them to me. And I'm like should I work or shouldn't I? Like, I don't know. I don't know what it is. Like, my only, the motivation for myself is just to like go, I guess. [00:31:00]

I think that just comes from like just being so busy and doing so many like, like in high school, being like getting up and you know going to multiple training early in the morning before school. It's like if you thought about it, like, if you thought about how tired I am like, I don't know, I wouldn't go or, you know, the same with like going to practices or other things or whatever. I've just got in the mindset of just doing it.

THERAPIST: Did that cost you?

CLIENT: I don't think so. I don't know. I've always had like a maybe if I was like going to a concert or something. I'll be excited at first. Like it's months away or whatever, but as it gets closer, it's like I don't want to go. Like, I don't know. Like, if I thought about it or something like and then if I go, then I'm like usually like, oh, that was great. I don't know. It's just weird. If I think about things, I'm just like no. I don't know what to do anymore. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Like, I would imagine it's a little like back in college too. Especially, during sports just that you had the idea if you didn't do it now. [00:33:00]

CLIENT: Right. Or you had to do it otherwise it would look like you didn't go to like struggle. I don't know. You had to do it. Maybe it's just a way of avoiding like dread or something. Like. I remember, yeah, when Vicki and I were driving back, for some reason, I was dreading like having to carry her bags up because I was tired or whatever and then I was just like when we got there she's like pile them up. I just don't want to think about it. I don't know. Dread or something. [00:34:10]

THERAPIST: I think there might be something a little depressive in there that is related to that sense of dread that you're referring to. And, it has to do with kind of ignoring of yourself that happens in this repeated sort of kind of karmic push to do all these things that you're actually pretty ambivalent about. Like, I think there's some part of yourself that gets the sort of really important in that I think that it's chronically over ridden through this process. I'm not saying the answer is therefore to stop doing things. That's not what I mean. But, but, like in high school that, you know, even if after a personal training you're really glad you did it, or after high school you're glad you were that serious about sports or whatever. Whatever. Even if kind of unbalanced, you were happy with the way they went. There was some other way that, it was not exactly about a decision that you really made for yourself or something that you kind of, I don't know, gave yourself permission to have mixed feelings about it in some way. Like, there's something there about not wanting to do it and why you didn't want to do it and what the good reasons were for not doing it. Even if you were ultimately going to side with them, that seems important to me in this. [00:36:30]

CLIENT: I think the reason, like, I did, like, do these things and kind of try not to think of it because I was maybe like the big thought was that, I don't know, it was going to make me better. Like, like with the personal training. Like, now that I remember, that was actually was my idea because I had went to some sports camp and these guys were there and I don't know. I remember, like telling my mom that I have some ideas of like moving towards like being like a, become the perfect athlete like or something or idea of like perfection or something. Like, I just did these things. I don't know. And then I need, you know, to, I don't know, what I wanted to be or something or what I thought I should be I guess.

THERAPIST: Which was who? Like, you're supposed to be the perfect athlete? [00:37:30]

CLIENT: Right. Or, like, yeah, it was like, yeah. You know, I was just like it faster and stronger, but then there was also like another component. Like, I wanted to be, I don't know, cultural and like play the flute and read books. I don't know. It's just like, so, I did all those things. I don't know. It was some weird idea in my head that, yeah, that's what I wanted. I don't know. That's what I wanted to be or I should be or like, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. [00:38:30]

THERAPIST: And there was another part that wanted to stay in bed and wanted to take it easy and wanted to like have more like down time?

CLIENT: Maybe. From my perspective in high school, it was like, I was always just like I can do it. There wasn't that dread. I was just like.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: And, now, it's kind of like I have that dread. I mean that's more motivated or like, I don't know. I'm was so busy I didn't like think, I guess. I just kind of did it. I don't remember. I mean, yeah, I don't remember ever like being like I don't want to go. I think there was like only one time. I used to take a, you know, a personal, like coach. All I remember one time is that I really didn't want to go. Like, yeah. I remember, yeah, you know, talking to my mom because I always felt guilty not going and then I was talking to her and I was like I really don't, I just don't want to go. I'm so tired. She said well, that's fine. That was the only time for real like and I started when I was nine until like 18 or something. [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: And how often did you go to do this?

CLIENT: I went two times a week. I guess. I did it once a week and then I did, until I was 16. It was once a week. Like, one time we didn't, like I was doing utility fielding a few times. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know. But, I don't know. I mean, I enjoyed going. Like, you know, enjoyed my coaches. I enjoyed my trainers. Like, they're, my friends were there. Like, cut from other teams at the last meet, like, I don't know. Like, it wasn't all bad.

THERAPIST: I don't have the impression that it was all bad by any means or even that you wouldn't decide to do it again. [00:41:00]

CLIENT: Right. I don't know. Yeah. Now, I'm just, you know, now I feel lost and I'm, you know. Like, yeah, if it was something I wanted or a combination of like what my mom wanted and then me just wanting to be the best at it, I guess, sort of is what I mean.

THERAPIST: You know, it sounds like what you're describing is like it was some of each of those things that your mom sort of wanted for you. There were times when what she wanted probably made it more what you wanted, but other times where it, you know, it mattered a lot to you and where you really wanted to do your best at it and other times you just wanted to go the hell home and go to bed or whatever. I mean...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So, I'd say like it's probably all of those things just with sort of one essential. [00:42:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. I just don't know like what road. I don't know if it even has a like, where am I? Like, how does that relate to where I am now? Like, now I'm just, I don't know. I compare I guess myself to men and then I feel like men have it like invincible or something. Like, I have all this energy and motivation and I don't know. I mean I don't know if I'm trying to recreate it by just going away or something. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see. Like there's a way all of that was really working then.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That isn't working now.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah. [00:43:00]

THERAPIST: And which is...

CLIENT: I think also there was like this productiveness that I felt by doing all those things. So, it was okay to not do anything like I did half of the time. It was okay that I laid on the couch all day or whatever.

THERAPIST: We should stop now.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

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