TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Morning.

CLIENT: Morning.

(pause)

CLIENT: I guess, late last night, one of my friends who lives in Florida, she texted me. We didn't go to the same high school, but I met her through mutual high school friends. She was, I knew she had like, broken up with her boyfriend recently and she was just really down. Kind of asking my advice for, if she should see him again, blah, blah, blah, you know, the usual. You know, and I thought she had some, I guess, mean to like, I don't know she said she was feeling like out of control, like he had so much dominance over her emotions She had some scheme where she would like stand him up so she would have some control or something. [00:01:10]

So I was just kind of like, you know, I gave her like, I think I said, like, I understand how you are feeling. I've been through the, like, method you know, that it doesn't sound like the best idea but you can do what you want. (chuckle) I don't know. I guess she was just really down and wanted advice. She's a little bit of a I mean, she has a lot of like, similarities between me and her. Because we were both kind of, in like high school, kind of had like, I don't know how to describe it, like we were, not invincible, maybe we had like a little bit of a bad ass attitude. I don't know. (chuckle) [00:02:07]

Maybe that we were both queens or something like that. She had, or she graduated from high school early, and went straight into dental school, so she's a dentist. I don't know, we just have lot in common I guess. But then I feel like, I don't know, she was always maybe a little more like just crazy and do it all, that emotional. But so, yeah first thing, seems to me like, I feel bad for her, you know. She had control. I don't know. And of course it reminded me of Paul, last night. You know, like, the idea of like, I guess letting go, I don't know. Like for both of us, why are we so attached to like people we were close to. [00:03:22]

I don't know, our so, I guess, like not able to move on. It's like a hard period for both of us have this like, not being able to let go. Like, we have a really hard time with that or something. [00:03:43]

THERAPIST: I see. Do you think of Paul a lot?

CLIENT: Yeah. I do. I see him every once in a while. He was in (inaudible) for like a month for work or something. And he came back last week, and I saw him when he came back. But, yeah, I mean I just (inaudible) for when I go through cycles of, I guess like, disgusted with him. Or fed up and frustrated and then I'm like, I don't know, then I'm like, Oh I just need to (inaudible) and like I can't be mean or not answer him or something like that. But, I don't know. Like I can give in, but like, it's not good for me. Seeing him or, keeping this weird relationship that we have. [00:04:55]

THERAPIST: You said keeping this weird relationship we have, do you mean, this in terms of how you think and feel about him, or do you guys still hang out?

CLIENT: Yeah, both. I mean, we see each other every once in a while, and of course every time I see him I kind of, reignites the, like, how I feel about him.

THERAPIST: All right. I'm getting concrete here. You say you see him every once in a while, it's sounding like you kind of run across him at work, but you mean like you have plans.

CLIENT: Right, we have plans.

THERAPIST: Ah, okay. Slowly catching on.

CLIENT: Okay. (chuckle) I'm very happy that we don't work together anymore. But, even still, like, I don't know, I work that's another thing we worked on the same project I still talk to him about work sometimes. I don't know. People often ask, I don't know, it comes up in conversation. I don't know. The other day I was sitting at lunch with some random people and we were talking about, oh what's the next sporting event to play against another lab. Like we played soccer last time, and they all were talking about Paul and how he like, played soccer in college so he was really good, blah, blah, blah. [00:06:25]

And I was just like, he would never, I don't know, he never escapes like my work life and he was there. And I think Tanya, one of the older research assistants, she really liked him so she often asked me about him, or have I talked to him, or, I don't know. So I'm just like, yeah. Very like, (inaudible) so, I don't know. Anyway, I feel like, if I every time I've said, like how I feel about him, or get frustrated with him and tell him, you know, this, like, I don't know. Like you make me feel like crap, thinking I want honesty. Like what is this, I don't know, he's just always like, I'm sorry you feel this way, and then nothing else. I don't know. Then I feel like we go through a period of not seeing each other for awhile and then somehow it picks back up or something. [00:07:47]

THERAPIST: Are you in love with him?

CLIENT: I think I was, now I'm more, I don't know. I don't know what I am. Not even close huh.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: But I guess it just makes me feel so like, unstable or, I don't know. He just has so much control over me, my emotions. I don't know.

THERAPIST: In that how you are feeling buried so much with what's going on between you.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Like if you are sort of, rather be more in touch, or less in touch, or

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: If he was more interested or less interested.

CLIENT: Right. And, yeah. Everyone like, will like, or like, very few, not very many people know about us. (inaudible) my old roommate, and Debbie, a few of those people knew about it. They are all like, they are very like, you know, do what you want, do what makes you happy, but they are all like, you should move on if he's not making you happy. It's been like this for a very long time, so. [00:09:20] (pause)

THERAPIST: And, do you think you should move on as well, but you can't? Or are you just not sure what you want to do? Or?

CLIENT: I think all the time I should move on and like get rid of him. But then, like, I don't want him out of my life, I don't. And it feels like the only way to keep him in my life is keeping this relationship, seeing each other. I don't know. So I guess it's like a choice of keeping him in my life by keeping up with this relationship, and, or sending him (inaudible) and hope he will disappear, you know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Are you angry with yourself for that?

CLIENT: Not really no. I think I'm more, I think, not angry, I just wish I was like, I wish I was stronger and like an independent woman who didn't need, him or something. I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: Very what?

CLIENT: I don't know, just like, just trying to be like self sufficient, I don't know.

THERAPIST: I could always it was making me thing about what we were talking about yesterday, (inaudible) the wishes that you had been less intimidated.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Sort of taken advantage of more opportunities. [00:11:29]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I know it's not the same.

CLIENT: Yeah I often think that I will feel, like I've wasted a lot of time you know, a lot of power for him. But then, you know, I'm not like, like people say, you should look for other people. I'm not, not looking but (chuckle) I don't know.

THERAPIST: If somebody came along.

CLIENT: Right, I mean yeah.

THERAPIST: You don't feel loyal to a relationship with him, if you met somebody else you would stop it. But (inaudible) comes along.

CLIENT: Right, yeah. (pause) And I think another reason why I like stick with it. I don't know, like I'll figure out what he's thinking or even though I like am irrational because I'll never know. But for some reason I'm just like, I don't know stick with it, I'll find out something. It's weird. [00:13:14]

THERAPIST: He doesn't make a lot of sense, in terms of his feelings and actions in the relationship?

CLIENT: Right, like, I don't know. He'll, I don't know, yeah. In a way, like, the fact that he just wants t make like physical. But then like when I'm with him, or he'll like do something for me, and I'm just like, that's weird. I don't know if he's just feeling guilty and think that buying me something will make me feel better, or.

THERAPIST: What did he buy you?

CLIENT: He's brought me back a bunch of stuff from the Europe. Like this little like shirt with a, I can't remember what it's called. He's from there and there's this huge statue of a hybrid of a lamb and a something. (laughter) And he brought me back this little trinket. I don't know. And like, he always like, chocolate over there is better, so he brings me chocolate. Just random stuff.

THERAPIST: But that shows you that he's thinking of you.

CLIENT: I guess, but then I think that oh, he's probably bought those for other people or something as well. Who knows. [00:14:50](pause)

So yeah, he's not, he's not coherent

THERAPIST: And how?

CLIENT: I used to, I still do it a little bit, I used to try to read into everything, but I think I'm probably learning that you get nothing out of that, or very little. So, I do, I guess, I do feel a little bit better about the situation. I don't know, like some kind of place like, it is what it is. But every once in a while I get upset or like, just want to like know what to think. And I think overall I'm very much in a better place with it.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: I know I don't want to get down so much, like I used to try to talk about him so much, and now I don't. I don't think I do that anymore.

THERAPIST: How much do you guys see each other these days? [00:16:14]

CLIENT: I don't know, almost every week, yeah. (pause) But, so anyway, yeah. And then, I got mixed thinking with like Vicki, I don't know, it's just the idea of letting go. I don't know Or why I am so, (inaudible) for. (pause)

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know.

(pause from [00:17:20] to [00:17:33])

I think just maybe we are both, it's worse than, I don't know, affection, or being like what I want, like someone being really close or really intimate in different ways. With Vicki it's like emotional and I can be really truthful with her and I don't know. It's just having, a close relationship. Not wanting to lose that.

THERAPIST: Yeah, looks like it really means quite a lot, to you, to have her in your life in a relationship.

CLIENT: Right, it does, but then, just like with Paul, like being self sufficient, and not rely so much on either one of them, to like have the answer. [00:19:16] (pause)

Yeah. I don't know.

(pause from [00:19:26] to [00:19:57]

I for some reason think with Paul, for some reason I thought I should like imagine him, or think that he had a girlfriend or had a like secret affair or something. (chuckle) I don't know, sometimes I think about it that way, like maybe being a little angry or upset like kind of helps me. Sometimes when I'm feeling down, like, why doesn't he call me, and I wonder what he's thinking and I just think of that and (inaudible)

THERAPIST: That God damn secret family and kids are probably at Disney World or something.

CLIENT: (giggles) yeah. Right, I guess it makes me a little angry at him or. I don't know, it's weird, I haven't like been doing that for a while, so I'm in a better place or, not as bad as I was. (inaudible) [00:21:02]

(door opens and closes)

(pause from [00:21:02] to [00:21:26])

THERAPIST: Is, is the question that you've been wrestling with, with him, like, something along the lines of, why doesn't he want you, in a more serious relationship sort of way?

CLIENT: Yeah. I, yeah, I think both of those make me upset, so much I think from the beginning, I think for the most part. I think I've, I've asked him that a lot of times, and he usually gives me, like he usually says, I'm busy, or I don't want a relationship because they end or something. I just kind of contribute it to, you know, there's something, I don't know, weird with his being close to someone. Because when I first met him, I met him with a couple of his friends, and I was talking with one of his friends and he said I've known Paul for four years, and I feel like I don't know him at all. Like, I've never been to his house and never, stuff like that. That kind of gave me like this huge, like, he doesn't let people in well, or I don't know. [00:23:06] Or, yeah, so. (pause)

THERAPIST: My impression is that, sometimes it's been like a very personal and very painful question for you, why he hasn't let you in more.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) Right. I mean I do often think like, I've done something wrong, or if I was more like, I don't know. I get like a stronger person, or wasn't like obsessed with him, and if I came off as more of an independent person, then he would be like yeah, I think of like a bunch of different things of how he could like me more, you know, how I can come off to him or something. [00:24:25]

THERAPIST: Is it something of a magnet for your self doubt?

CLIENT: A little bit. I think it's all like under the realm of me wanting to be, that ideal like, strong, independent, like have my own interests and like come from somewhere else. For some reason I think that yeah, if I was like that, I would be like more, or I would -

THERAPIST: It would matter less.

CLIENT: Right. (pause)

(door opens and closes several times)

THERAPIST: I guess in a way, it's just, I mean I imagine is part of why it's a relief to think about him as having, you know, a secret family or some other relationship. Because that way this says it's not about you. [00:26:03] And that

CLIENT: I'm, for some reason I don't,

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Feel that's

THERAPIST: That's alright.

CLIENT: I don't think about it, because that's just way for me to be mad. (inaudible phrase) off. Or (inaudible) something.

THERAPIST: I see. Makes you wonder why you need that to be so mad at him.

CLIENT: I guess because he makes me feel, like, when I am, why I am, like I'm crazy, like I'm or that, why can't I just let things be, why do I have to ask those questions, why can't I just enjoy what we have, like, I don't know. It's just like, that's how he makes me feel, and so I doubt myself. And I'm attached to him, and then it's like, you know, like, maybe dependent on him for some happiness. So I don't, so I question myself and what I think about why he is doing things and what things are, and so, the only reason for me to get mad is to think that I guess. Because I doubt myself so much otherwise. [00:27:45]

THERAPIST: But if all the, you sort of buy in to his view that you are being unreasonable in your desire for something else Or desire to know more about where he is coming from. And seeing things from his point of view, that way you don't feel a right to get angry with him?

CLIENT: Yeah, I do feel that way. It's more of a, yeah. And it's also more the stereotype of being this emotional girl who, you know, is dependent on him. And I, yeah. And actually I've never heard him say that, I just assumed it. Well, like, I don't know, I just, yeah. I know that I heard that he doesn't want a relationship because they end. Like I never heard him say, like you are too emotional or whatever.

THERAPIST: I think that comes from you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it plays in, with your sense of kind of weakness. [00:29:33]

CLIENT: Right, right, yeah. And also I think it's like the age difference, like me being young and

THERAPIST: How old is he?

CLIENT: He's 31. He just turned 31.

(pause from [00:29:56] to [00:30:55]

THERAPIST: I, I don't say this sort of lightly. And I often sort of, (inaudible) but I, I don't think it's right, I think it may be a little bit manipulative of him, to say that your wanting something more, or wanting to know more why he doesn't, or being upset about your not being close, I know those things were for more, and issue in the past than they are right now. You are more accepting of the way things are. But, I guess, I'm at least from what you've said and from what I know of the situation from you, it's a perfectly reasonable thing to want. I'm not, like, you know, people want, I don't want you to think I'm faulting him for not wanting the same things as you do. But to act as though its' sort of off the wall for you, you know, because of how you feel about him, because of what it's been like to spend time with him and so forth. To want something more, or to want to know about why he doesn't. Like, that's not unusual at all. And, sometimes it's perfectly reasonable. And again, that doesn't mean he has to want the same thing, or that the relationship isn't okay the way it has been, that isn't at all what I mean to say. [00:32:50]

But, it sort of like, (pause) yeah, I mean the ridiculous analogy just came to my mind, that two people were on a hike and one person is hungry, the other person isn't. Like, it makes sense that some people would be hungry on a hike. It doesn't mean the other person has to be, or has to want the same thing. But, like, what the hell, why are you hungry, like that's crazy, you know? (pause) Yeah I'm sure you can see what I mean.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, I can see how, his lack of answer, and like if the topic is brought up, and the dismissal that you know, he makes me feel that way. That I'm crazy for thinking these things. [00:34:03]

THERAPIST: And like, I don't know where he's coming from, or what the transaction looks like, but, your not sort of crazy or in any way unusual with knowing, or wanting to know about him. But again, it doesn't mean like, exactly, he has to want, or what he's comfortable talking about for whatever reason. (pause)

CLIENT: I guess, I was just, I don't know what to do about it. (pause) Like, it's either confronting him, or not talking to him, or, I don't know what to do. I think confronting him is, I'm never getting answers, all I get is I don't know, or like you know, I, he said once that he had to, like I was just like I want to know more about you, and like open up, blah, blah, blah. And he was like, oh you're going to have to beat it out of me. And I was like what? (chuckle) I was like I kind of feel like I am.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's like, it feels like he's incredibly evasive. [00:35:48]

CLIENT: Right. I don't know what to do, and like, and now I'm feeling like, now I should actually do something to you know, get control back, or I don't know.

THERAPIST: I see you as feeling pretty helpless.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or as in both in relation to him and what he wants and does, but the way he acts, can I guess in terms of your own good for him. You're there, you don't want to do anything about him. It's part (inaudible) do anything other than act in a way that would harm. I don't think you should. I'm really not. But, I guess what I'm trying to do is illustrate that I imagine you feel helpless, and out of control. [00:37:02]

CLIENT: Right. I'm sorry, this just reminded me of, at work, last March, February, they had a Mardi Gras party, (chuckle). I went there and she was like, are you in a relationship like this? And I was like, I guess, she was like no, I mean, you don't need that, you need this. And I was like, you know me so well.

(laughter)

CLIENT: I don't know, so.

(chuckles)

THERAPIST: Much better than giving advice than I. (chuckle)

CLIENT: She was great. (chuckle) But I guess.

THERAPIST: Do you want somebody to tell you what to do already?

CLIENT: I have plenty of people have told me what to do. (laughter) [00:38:11]

I don't know. I can't let go. For some reason I think riding it out will, I'll get an answer, and I'll find out some clue, I don't know. Hopefully. He is coming. But, yeah. (pause)

THERAPIST: I was just laughing at your answer, plenty of people have told me what to do. (laughter)

CLIENT: Yeah. I, wondering, he used to work in the lab. He also moved on. He's very, I guess he's very good with people. And every time I see him, I usually see him at like outings with the lab, like you know, out at the bars. He's always checking, move on, I just want you to be happy. [00:39:45] I don't know. And Vicki hates him.

THERAPIST: Oh really?

CLIENT: Well, she's never met him, she's just always heard (inaudible).

(pause from [00:40:00] to [00:40:34])

It's like, yeah, the thing is, I feel like if I, like, stop things, or I don't know, then something will be like missing from my life. Because he's been on my mind, or like, he'll I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: How much of this sort of, my impression is that you are kind of the intent and uncertainty and sort of tortuous, you tried this, that was playing out a bit more between you in the summer and over spring. Like you were bringing it up and trying to get more answers out of him. And like more actively trying to figure out what to do. And now, is it more like, sort of, not a routine, but a rhythm maybe. Where, you see each other, you do stuff together,

CLIENT: And it's very repetitive

THERAPIST: And that, your sadness about it, and I guess happiness about it as well. And like excited about him, and feeling the rejection, like all that stuff is more the stuff you think and feel about. But it doesn't so much play out between you these days? [00:42:43]

CLIENT: Right, yeah. I mean, every once in a while, I'm like, I should say something, but then, you know, like I get intimidated and then I just don't want to make it awkward and you know like, in the time we do have together I guess.

THERAPIST: What intimidates you?

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause) I guess just, you know, I don't want him to see how much I do care, or feeling foolish I guess for even asking. So.

(pause from [00:43:38] to [00:43:58])

THERAPIST: We should stop for now. (inaudible) message.

CLIENT: Okay. (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Sure, yeah.

(door opens and closes)

END TRANSCRIPT