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BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Yes, I guess on my way over here, I was kind of, I don't know, wondering what I should talk about. I mean I still feel, I don't know I don't know, I was trying to, for an example I was thinking about [inaudible at 00:00:49] what for now what should I do and then I just felt confused. And I kind of feel that way about everything right now. I don't really want to think about it and that, I don't know. I think I'm in a very confused state and I don't know what to do or what's appropriate, I guess.

THERAPIST: It's tough to get traction on anything.

CLIENT: Right. And, yes, I don't know. And I feel kind of that way, I don't know, a lot towards my friends lately. I don't know. Who knows? And I don't know. I don't know if I'm being extra needy and then worrying about it or, yes, I think I'm just been hanging too much with my friends and I'm kind of oh I shouldn't contact them, I don't know, not too much, not at all but not too much but I don't know. I feel confused what I should do, like do I want to see my father some more, a year or two, I don't know, no. I'm very back and forth. I don't know, yes. [00:02:19]

Yes, I guess a good example would be this weekend one of my friends from Dartmouth came to visit. She stayed with Sascha (ph) who was my old roommate who also went to Dartmouth. So Friday night we hung out; it was fine. So Saturday we were planning to drive again or whatever and I said okay and I go just text me what's going on, whatever. I don't know. And she never got back or she never said anything so I said do I text her, do I, I don't know, seems like a joke, I don't know. And I just didn't know what was going on. So that's kind of how I feel. I don't want to bother her or seem needy or I don't know.

THERAPIST: What happened?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Oh you never heard from her?

CLIENT: No. I mean I saw her yesterday; we're actually both going for a run around the river so it was brief but I don't know. She just said oh hey. She didn't mention Ashley was a friend, [inaudible at 00:04:21] like her at all. She said hi so I just said [oh hello, whatever, maybe nothing happened. I mean, I don't know. They forgot or I don't know. But that's why in the moment it bothers me but now I don't really care. I've been on the other end of that or [00:04:43]

THERAPIST: So I'm a little confused. So a group of people that hang out Friday night or just the three of you or -

CLIENT: No it was a group, so it was, yes there was six of us. And, yes, we were, I don't know. So, yes, and I guess Saturday but not all of us went to Yale so some were Sascha's (ph) roommates who I'm pretty good friends with or kind of hang with. And so I was just, I don't know, I was waiting and I -

THERAPIST: Is that like her to do something like that?

CLIENT: I guess a little bit. I was always her roommate so I feel like I always got the invite before [laughs] or I was just around. But I think, yes, I think I hurt other people with things, whatever, I don't know. But then I didn't know if, yes, if I was being too needy towards getting or asking her to include me in too much or something. But, yes, anyway, we'll see. I don't know. She's supposed to come over to my place tonight so, I don't know, to hang out but we'll see. I don't know. But, I don't know, I feel like this is kind of whining, girl crap.

THERAPIST: How so? [00:06:35]

CLIENT: I don't know, she didn't text me back, I don't know. Could have like why didn't I say something, I don't know. I don't know. But then I just don't want to feel dependent or, I don't know. Like hey what's going on? Are you going to come for a little while?

THERAPIST: I see and now you're whining about it which is or probably not all that different either in a way. In other words you weren't getting texts because you were sort of being sort of needy and dependent and sort of I guess too affected or something by what was going on and now you're whining and making a big deal out of it apparently. And so that's -

CLIENT: Well, I don't know, I'm just really fearful of I'm just been confused with I guess my relationships.

THERAPIST: No, no, I it's one of us that thinks you're whining and it's not me.

CLIENT: I don't know, I just yes, I mean I guess. Yes, I kind of, I don't know. It kind of goes under the aspect that I want to be, yes, self-sufficient or I don't know, just not dependent on other people for, I don't know, what's going on or, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Right. I guess I'm maybe I'm wrong but I imagine that was a little bit you're saying here and that and maybe you want something from me as well. In other words, some reassurance that this is kind of lame on their part or that you are being too needy or something that helps you feel less crummy.

CLIENT: Yes, I kind of feel, I don't know, yes, that I don't really have perspective and I'm very back and forth with should I say something, should I, whatever, let it go because things happen and that's kind of how I feel now but I don't know. I guess that kind of back and forth is kind of giving me discerning [inaudible at 00:09:47], not knowing or just kind of brain dead in general. Just kind of when I kind of get angry and I say yes, whatever do I care? I just don't want to think about it anymore.

THERAPIST: So one minute you think this is kind of weird or kind of lame of her, she should have been in touch with me and what the hell, I don't understand why she didn't follow through; and then another minute you think oh I'm being too needy, I'm being too dependent, it really isn't on my side -

CLIENT: Right, or if I [00:10:13]

THERAPIST: I shouldn't be upset about this, [inaudible at 00:10:15] by it, and you kind of go back and forth and you just really don't know.

CLIENT: Right and as of yes. And I don't know how to feel. I don't know whether to be sad or mad or just whatever.

THERAPIST: I see. So you're kind of confused and frustrated and upset. And I gather this is an example that this is characteristic of old blahs of what you're feeling these days.

CLIENT: Right. Just kind of, I lost the, I don't know, the register of what's going on or like the I don't know, yes. Like what is not right but what is routine (ph) I guess or, I don't know. Yes, so I guess I, yes, I've just been feeling that way towards a lot of people or situations, I don't know. Yes.

THERAPIST: And I guess I'm not sure at quite what level of abstraction you're relating these things in that I'm not sure whether you're saying that this is the only other situations you're finding yourself in and that the parameters are the same. Like with Paul you're feeling on one side sort of angry with him and the other side you're being too needy and dependent. I mean is it the same sort of thing setting up on both sides or is it just sort of more generally kind of feeling two different ways about things and not kind of losing your comforts and your perspective. [00:12:30]

CLIENT: I think, yes, it's everything. On the way over here, I forgot my cell phone at work and I just didn't ask someone to borrow their cell phone so I could call Lynn because I don't remember who I live with and I just couldn't ask someone. I don't know, it's just one of those, I don't know, situations. But I don't know if that's because I'm timid or, I don't know. I was thinking when I asked people, people would probably say why this girl needs my cell phone? I don't know. I was just thinking how would I react alone? I don't know. But [inaudible at 00:13:22], yes, of everything.

THERAPIST: You can use my phone if you want.

CLIENT: [Laughing] No, that's okay. It's too late.

THERAPIST: She left?

CLIENT: Yes, she has class as well tonight. So, no problem. I did it before. I don't know. But yes, I don't know. These kind of things are cropping up a lot. On a Sunday I didn't feel that well because, I don't know, I ate a lot of cookies the day before and I said oh I'm going to go to yoga. I didn't feel that well. And then I walked halfway there and said no, I don't want to do it and walked back. So, I don't know, I really don't. I don't know. I don't know what I believe. [00:14:34]

THERAPIST: What was the debate over? Yoga?

CLIENT: I just didn't feel that well. I said I shouldn't be in a hot room with a lot of people. I don't know.

THERAPIST: Does that kind of make you feel better or worse [inaudible at 00:14:48] question?

CLIENT: Right, yes.

THERAPIST: Do you feel any of it in relation to what's going on here or what goes on here?

CLIENT: I guess not knowing what to talk about or, yes, what should I say or what's important or I feel like a lot of things I say are repetitive or, yes, not important. Or I don't want to feel like I'm whining. Yes.

THERAPIST: I see. So then am I going to judge you for whining or are you going to judge you for whining? Like, am I secretly going to judge you for whining or are you going to go home and feel bad that you were whining? Where does -

CLIENT: I guess [00:16:14]

THERAPIST: Clear who's doing what to you?

CLIENT: I think it's more of an anxiety when I come here. It's not, when I leave I feel fine. It's more like I worry that I'm, yes, boring or wonder what other people say or [better sports] (ph) or whatever.

THERAPIST: I see. I guess you're doing, let me back up a little. So you have in mind what my reactions might be, like to be bored to find you not interesting compared to who I talk to?

CLIENT: Yes, well bored or I'm tired of doing this for her. I don't know, I don't know. Yes, I mean, I don't know, I don't want to make the session draw out and long, I don't know, so I've noticed that.

THERAPIST: Works for me where I'm -

CLIENT: Yes, or even for me too but I'm still uncomfortable when I get stuck on things.

THERAPIST: So it can be kind of painfully slow. [00:18:14]

CLIENT: Not slow it's just I think I don't like talking a lot about what I'm talking about because I feel like I'm mourning or just bringing up things that happened to have something to talk about. I don't know.

THERAPIST: My impression is that the things that you talk about are things that matter to you like going out Saturday night or certainly the stuff with Paul or just this kind of repeated experience of being stuck and not knowing how to look at or feel what the stuff is doing you're describing that each of those things causes you pretty considerable stress and angst.

CLIENT: Might be.

THERAPIST: My other concern has to do with your life. I don't mean quite so bad that it sounds so grim and I rather sense pretty [inaudible at 00:19:45], at least it sounds like it, it is affecting you and making you feel crummy.

CLIENT: I guess it's more of a worry that I have to get how I'm coming off to people, because I can't read myself or just in my head or I don't how I'm coming off to people but it's just a worry but I don't know. I don't know did I do something wrong Friday night or had I been a certain way, have I been needy or something for a long time, I don't know. [00:20:38]

THERAPIST: I see. You may be kind of connecting to turn people off without knowing it and then something ambiguous happens like you [don't hear from Sascha] (ph) on Saturday and you don't know what to make of it.

CLIENT: Right. I mean, yes, I try to tell myself this seems something fun to do, or if I was really that worried about my [inaudible at 00:21:11] I might just call her out or bring her home tonight but I don't know. Yes, I don't know, yes, if they know things or, yes, or maybe you're I don't know.

THERAPIST: I guess in a way part of this seems to involve difficulty for having confidence in other people's view of you, like if you call Sascha (ph) up and say oh shit, yes I'm sorry I'm running late and I'm whatever blah, blah, blah I forgot to text somebody and thanks for reaching out, yes I think what we're doing, yes definitely come along, blah, blah, blah.

CLIENT: Right. Yes, I guess, yes, that's it. Yes, I don't know what other people are thinking and I don't know. I mean as always I try to analyze stupid things but I don't know. I have to tell myself again you never know or whatever. [00:22:24]

THERAPIST: Well I hear you that [inaudible at 00:22:51]. As it turns out I have no idea what Sascha (ph) was thinking but [it seems] (ph) to me that you pretty consistently have a negative bias in where you anticipate either coming from or how you're coming across and that leads to your being pretty critical I guess of other things you feel and want from people.

CLIENT: Right, right. I think it comes down to I don't like myself and -

THERAPIST: I see. So today your view comes from not really liking yourself in the first place.

CLIENT: Right, and I don't know maybe the distrust of people not really telling me what they really think of me or very few people, friends.

THERAPIST: What do you really think of you? [00:24:27]

CLIENT: I don't really like myself. Yes. I don't know I think that, I don't know, everything, I don't know, that I'm not good socially, maybe. I don't know. Just everything. I don't just everything.

THERAPIST: Well that's not a very long list so far. It's difficult to talk about.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: How come?

CLIENT: I don't know; it hurts. Yes, I just think that, I don't know, I guess I'm trying to filter this also. It's been so hard to talk about and it's -

THERAPIST: You're trying to filter yourself -

CLIENT: With my emotions, I don't want to get too emotional or yes.

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: I don't know. Yes.

THERAPIST: Because it's [inaudible at 00:26:23] stuff or because you feel like some harms are exposed or something else? [00:26:28]

CLIENT: Yes, yes. I don't want to hurt and be embarrassed.

THERAPIST: Because I can't imagine feeling embarrassed by that but I think some people would be embarrassed when they woke (ph) up with a reason, like what's embarrassing about it for you.

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm not sure I seem composed or I don't know. Then again I think it comes down to I just don't want to whine.

THERAPIST: I see. So the worry about whining in part kind of self-protective in a way, like that worry leads you to kind of reign yourself in from some critical or painful things you might say or leads you to be upset or maybe among other things that would then lead to your sort of feeling hurt and upset and maybe being treated in a way by me or somebody else that makes you feel worse? [00:28:35]

CLIENT: I think I just don't want to come across as being a drama queen or whining about things that most people experience or just I don't know if I'm just being hyper-sensitive about everything so I don't want to whine about it.

THERAPIST: Why not? You've got a fear of hurting quite a lot.

CLIENT: But, I don't know but I feel that terrible is happening to me or bad and it's just my perception.

THERAPIST: Maybe, maybe not. I'm not saying bad things happen and you're not remembering them or something but -

CLIENT: Like everyone who's had, or not everyone, I know plenty of people who've had crappy boyfriends or whatever, the whole Paul situation a lot of people have had that. And, I don't know, I'm just being circle (ph) or, I don't know, on what to do. I wish I had more confidence because I feel like now I'm just hanging out or hanging on to find answers to what does he think of me or why do this for so long or what does he get out of it but yes, as far as you're like yes, I'm just hanging out. But anyway, yes, I feel like a lot of people have that situation and a lot of people are, I don't know, don't know what to do with their career at this time or lives. So I just feel like I need to stop whining and do something.

THERAPIST: Although I get thinking of that kind of way [inaudible at 00:31:18] working at a time that's not working so well these days, I think.

CLIENT: Right, working myself up into sort of but yes, again I don't know what to do or how to think.

THERAPIST: Yes I guess you're very under the lens (ph) including about how much to sort of really get into all this in the way that you feel that versus buckling down, not whining and kind of dealing with stuff. [00:32:44]

CLIENT: No, or yes, or yes I mean I'm not lurking. Yes, just kind of like going (ph), yes, cutting off Paul, not giving Barbara my space. Yes, it's like everything's kind of f***king up royally.

THERAPIST: Not giving what? Barbara -

CLIENT: I know, I think, or not giving Barbara space. Kind of I don't know. Yes, f***king up when it's [inaudible at 00:33:28]. So I guess now I'm just kind of halfway caught between and I worry should I, yes, cut these people out or push myself. I'm just caught between and I don't know what to do or I don't know what to feel. [00:34:30]

THERAPIST: Well I think part of the reason you get stuck is because maybe you kind of [inaudible] strangle the feelings embedded on all of this a little bit. For example, it seems to me that one of the ways that your ambivalence on each of these situation's functions is to keep you from not being too immersed in either side of it with this feeling or that long because you kind of will go back to the other one.

So for example with Paul, I think that all the things you feel are sort of feels very honorary truth to you both the frustration with him, the intent in your interest in getting some f***king answers already, I imagine probably [inaudible at 00:36:17] in their right, make things out like make things outside or [inaudible at 00:36:25] about it. And then on the other side, you feel at least some things probably quite intensely I would guess. Maybe sometimes that's all at the same time and then sometimes in sequence a little more. [00:36:39]

And I imagine you're also incredibly furious with yourself, really angry for not having just gotten the f***k out of there probably months ago. And continuing to talk about it and continuing to be pre-occupied by it, continuing to be upset about it and continuing to be all these other things, you're also really quite angry with yourself for all of that. Clearly I'm not saying you should be but I think that's how you feel and I get a sense that it's part of the way ambivalence works is you never quite get immersed in either of those for that long without the other side kind of coming in and sort of hamstringing you somewhat. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yes. Well I think I just always questioned where is this feeling kind of coming (ph). I want a relationship or is that I don't know maybe I just talked myself out of sort of that's society or something like I don't, I shouldn't need a relationship [inaudible at 00:38:01], he's a jerk or what naturally happens often, why can't he just let me be? I think I asked the question where this is coming from, that's just when I was talking myself out of it. I don't know, yes, just maybe like the grounds for my feelings are not correct or whatever. [00:38:32]

THERAPIST: I wonder if these feelings (ph) that you have are frightening to you. I don't mean necessarily that feelings generally are but the desire to be with him or the desire to get some answers and perhaps stay engaged, or your anger at yourself for wanting those things, I wonder if they just seem scary. Each of those things could mean you're getting hurt in one way or another.

CLIENT: That's true. I mean I guess in this situation, I don't know, I confess, or not confess, sort of tell him how I feel and tell him I'm frustrated. But I feel like I'm going to lose him, that's going to push him away and then the other way I'm just going to lose him because I cut him out. So, yes, I mean -

THERAPIST: And I guess there is something crazy and also that sort of having and acting on them?

CLIENT: Yes, right, it's hard for me to, yes, act on them. I don't know how, yes. Yes, there's been, yes, where we've been together and I want to say something I'll pine (ph), but -

THERAPIST: It sounds like it's taking you a little sort of, you don't let yourself go too far with the feeling even when you're not with him and you might not choose to act on it. I imagine because you're worried you'll sort of get too caught up in it and you will act on it and there will be trouble but I'm not sure that's actually what will happen. I don't know. We should stop actually for now. You will not be in tomorrow.

CLIENT: Right. Thursday.

THERAPIST: You'll be here on Thursday, okay.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure. Thank you. [00:41:07]

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