TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Just put that over there, I have to check my schedule. but, so I'm around next week and I will also be in the Thursday, probably Wednesday and Thursday and Friday the week between Christmas and New Years. And then I won't be in probably Monday and Tuesday, which are like (inaudible) but that's my schedule, and your away for some of that.

CLIENT: Right. I'm leaving next Thursday in the morning. So I can't make that and then I'm pretty much gone until that Sunday before New Years Eve. So-

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: I'm missing it would be like, two Thursdays from next week or something.

THERAPIST: OK, So we're meeting Monday, Tuesday and then the first Thursday in January.

CLIENT: Yeah, so, it's been busy at work and I had an exam last night in Anatomy. So I've just kind of been studying and everyone is trying to get their samples in to me for the end of the year, so I've been processing them. I've been busy, which I like. And yeah I guess I've been feeling fine and no let downs.[00:01:53]

THERAPIST: That's good.

CLIENT: I'm excited, I have to go home for Christmas. My mom's dad is coming and my mom's sisters are coming and their families. So-

THERAPIST: Where are they coming in from?

CLIENT: One is coming from Idaho, and then the other one is from Oklahoma. So it will be fun. Usually we just always have a very quietlast year it was just me and my dad. So it's very-which is fine. My grandfather had a minor stroke couple of months ago and so he had been in a-he lived in Oklahoma near my other aunt and he moved to Boise and he's eventually going to in with my parents. So everyone is coming to Boise to see him. But yeah, (mumbles)

THERAPIST: Will your brother be in?

CLIENT: No. He hasn't come home for Christmas for a while. He always usually works. So I'll be needing his room. So I just gottaI'm pretty tired, like this week has been crazy. I'm glad that my exam's over, soI woke up today I was like, " Oh God it's only Thursday, (chuckles) but I don't know. I'm excited for the weekend and Vicki is coming and we're going to go Christmas shopping and yeah just kind of hang out. I have my actual final next week so I have to study again.[00:04:07]

THERAPIST: I'm curious, did you ever find out what happened on the weekend?

CLIENT: Oh, oh, Sascha? (sp)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, I saw her Monday night.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think I remember you mentioning her.

CLIENT: She came over, but I never asked, the they way she just described it was, her and Claudia was like they went to brunch and then they went to bed and that's it. I don't know they just we're like, they we're busy and they we're having a really good time, I don't know, it wasn't like, I guess maybe they just wanted to be by themselves, so. It was just like, it was just them two kind of hanging out all day. That's fine because they are a little bit closer than like I am to her.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Than I am to Claudia. But you know, it was just, but whatever. [00:05:06] But, yeah. So, everything is going fine since Monday night. (pause) I'm just going tolooking forward to getting home and kind of finishing off the year in style. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: It sounds like, your life is busy and a bunch of things going on and crazy at home.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's like, I mean it's like you said helped you feeling better.

CLIENT: It kind of reminds me of being in college and kind of like, not wanting to do this again. I would be, like especially the first semester, I feel like things creep up on you and you just study all the time and get busy, kind of once you're done then you just fly home and feel this kind of like relief? I guess. So. I don't know, it kind of feels like that. I don't know. But-[00:06:29]

THERAPIST: Do you have a final next week?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's (inaudible mumbling) Yeah last night was the, like lab part, where I gave them microscopes and (inaudible)

THERAPIST: Like Biology or something?

CLIENT: Yeah. (chuckle) Going around a circle at each station, and then Monday is the written part. Really fun. (pause) But, let's see, I saw a friend (inaudible) He was leaving today to go back to the UK for Christmas. His roomie was needing to use our computer. Yeah, I mean it was fine, it was, I think we talked and exchanged gifts and whatever. It was fine. But, yeah, I was like, well, so I won't see him next year. [00:07:49]

THERAPIST: Will you guys be in touch while he's away?

CLIENT: Yeah. Usually, he e-mails me or send texts, and he sends pictures. I think first he has to go to a wedding, then he's going home. (inaudible) business or something. I don't know. I just sends pictures of, I don't know, of his cat or something, I don't know. But, yeah (inaudible mumbling). But again, it's like, what is this? I don't know, so (pause). [00:08:44] I guess I'm just kind of being, right now at least, just distracted from my worry, is the the end of the year, just being busy I guess. It's alright, having thing to look forward to, a little distracted from my worries, I don't know. I'm sure as soon as the New Year hits, I'll be like, I'm ready to (chuckle) for the punch. So, yeah, I should, I should make a goal to like, do some work while I'm home. So, you know, I'm not just doing nothing you know. [00:09:33]

THERAPIST: What kind of work?

CLIENT: I kind of, I've been thinking about what I want to do, I don't care. I'm looking up possible MCAT days, I don't know, something. I don't know. Spend more time thinking about it, and yeah I'm making a plan if I can figure out something.

THERAPIST: Do you want to talk about it?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Do you want to talk -

CLIENT: About it?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't really know what to say, other than, I don't know, I guess I was just kind of like, look up a MCAT date, I don't know. Or look at, you know looking into that post-doc program that helps people who are taking science courses, I don't know, or, you know, just maybe going thing is I don't know what I want. And, I don't know, I'm kind of discouraged from all of them. [00:10:50] Like, MCAT because I'm committed to a post grad program for next year is expensive. And, grad school is, I think it will be a long haul. I bet like if it were a subject that I enjoy more than, than neurology, but, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Think you'll go back to neuroscience program?

CLIENT: Correct. Again, I feel like grad school doesn't like lead to a career. (chuckle) I don't know, especially like, when you have seven more years of stuff to do. So, (pause from[00:11:38] to [00:12:01]) I'm kind of at a loss on what to do. I thought maybe I should just stick with the neurology, I don't know, I could probably get into a good school for doing neurology work, but.

THERAPIST: Do you want to do neurology?

CLIENT: No. But, I don't know. I know enough now, I know what the lab life is like, I know all the procedures and a lot of the, and I know how to do DNA analysis, which is big. But, I don't know. I know in, helping one of the post doc's is writing a paper, and she had a job, she's from Europe, she had a job back when she was leaving December 21st for good, so we have to get the paper in before then, so I was helping her. I don't know, I like doing the data analysis for that. I don't know, but, it's because her project had a hypothesis, where my, or projects I've been working on are working to find something. We don't really like, we are asking what the difference is [00:13:19]

THERAPIST: Right, phishing?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I don't mean that critically but it, but there has to be a vast amount of data in there.

CLIENT: Right. And it worked well, like the phishing and the mouse died, the human side is just a lot harder, because people are so different, and you can't control them. There's like no normal human, that controlled human who has the, the yeah so I liked working on her project. You can see like big setting parts of it, but, I don't know.

THERAPIST: And she got a job?

CLIENT: Right, but, I don't, I don't know, I don't really see it as it was like her old PI had a company and she went to work for him. And, I don't see it like -

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. (chuckle)

CLIENT: I should do this cause boom, I'll get a job

(laughter)

THERAPIST: That's not a reason to have. That one got a job, so okay, I'll do that. (continued laughter)

CLIENT: Yeah, I think like, I see a lot of people, like our post-doc's leave our lab and get like industry jobs or, you know good jobs. So I'm like doubtful, it seems like a long haul.

THERAPIST: Yeah, they usually end up going for six years and then post doc for like a couple or three years can really

CLIENT: Right. There was, Tanya, the one who's right behind me, she's been going for eight years. [00:14:57]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) sooner for post doc. Woah.

CLIENT: She was, yeah. And I know another post doc who's been real long, I don't know how long it's been, but he just had his 42nd birthday. I was like don't you ever want to leave? (chuckle) I think that he had like this really (inaudible) But that's life.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. (pause) I don't know like where to, like what I should think about when deciding. Which ones you know, are my choices. Like right now I think I'm just going to look and see like, what, what is this going to get me? (chuckle) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Like what does the future of the job market look like.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And that stuff probably looks better while in school.

CLIENT: Right. [00:16:23] But I think I have a list, like which (mumbles) in school.

THERAPIST: Do you like (inaudible) or do you like high school period. I don't know a lot of this school, and used to but, sorry.

CLIENT: Period. I don't know, and again, I don't know if I want to put myself through the process. (mumbles) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Could your career have a (inaudible) to be up again?

CLIENT: Right. I don't know, it's a lot, you have to do resident and then yeah, but the application takes such a long time. It will take another year and seems like a waste of a year.

THERAPIST: Got it.

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: And post doc program, I imagine if you get into one, would help you get into med school, but it's also, I guess more time and a lot of money you said.

CLIENT: Right. It's something, I don't know, from talking to a few people who have done the post doc program, it sounds like a lot more, like nurturing (chuckles) play for the (inaudible) for this school. And kind of being like, you could put yours out of school, you kind of like Oh their going to pull these components together, like, they really help you.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And you don't have do, like management, if it's just the money, like certainly compared to graduate school, that washes out.

CLIENT: Well, it's just like another half year to two years of paying probably like $30-40,000 and then getting to med school and repaying the bills. I mean yeah it'd be involved and I really want to be like my (inaudible) You know, it's fine. In grad school you did for psych (inaudible)

THERAPIST: No, yeah I was thinking like if you were grad or post doc for like 12 to 14 years.

CLIENT: Right. So it's starting over.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: True.

THERAPIST: But I'm sure it's fun to think about dishing out whatever, a couple hundred thousand dollars to get yourself hooked up. (mumbles) [00:19:35]

CLIENT: As my parent's say, it's just money, you know. (chuckle) But.

THERAPIST: Is there a particular worry about the money, I mean are you worried that, it would sort of, wreck your lifestyle afterwards, because you have to pay it back, or that it's just sort of scary because what if something happened to live with mom or with dad, or?

CLIENT: Right, I guess the worry is, well I took out a lot of loans for under-grad. And, I was paying them off, but, well not luckily, but my dad's dad died and he left me some money, and I paid off all my loans for that, which was great.

THERAPIST: Yeah that was great.

CLIENT: But, yeah, it's stressful, like I had to pay, probably $300 a month for loans. And, I don't know. (pause) I guess yeah, the worry is that if I went for a post-doc, I would, to get a loan, and then not get into med school, it's like, you know. And then I have to start paying it back, because I'm not going directly into school, so it's not deferred. But, you know, then I have to get a job and start paying them. So, it's just like no freedom almost. [00:21:08]

THERAPIST: I see, are you locked into med school then?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Well, I've got to, and without any control or (inaudible) (chuckle)

CLIENT: Right. And also, like, yeah, if I didn't get into med school, who's going to pay for this.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I can really see that. That and the kind of (inaudible) would probably be high from those kind of programs, but still. I, I can understand you know, you don't know if you'll get in, not sure what's going to happen.

CLIENT: Right.(pause from [00:21:52] to [00:22:08]) So yeah, it's a bit of a gamble, I don't know, I've never been one to do that. Or putting faith in myself I guess. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know how to think about it any more. Other than, I don't know exactly what I want, but also what's appealing, and then put the, yeah I have my list of like con's or whatever.

THERAPIST: The part I never really learned to like have faith in yourself, that's pretty important. I mean, I mean, have you like, because you said a career choice, that would help I guess. But, just in general, I mean, it sounds like a big deal. [00:23:19]

CLIENT: Yeah but I've always just been, pessimistic and, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know, other than how it's always been, like things aren't going to work out. I don't know. Not because it's like, I don't know, I think it's just a tendency to always think, like the worst. I think it's just to protect myself that I do that.

THERAPIST: I'm not sure that will protect you all that well. In a way, I mean I can understand some situations where, like I'm not saying this to like be conservative, but, I guess the only thing, I'm not going to try to lie, but, you know, sort of think about, being focused on things that could go wrong, I don't think it's a general rule. But for you at least, I think in part of that, you kind of undermine you. Again, I'm not saying it's not like good to anticipate where like problems could be, like obviously, that can be very helpful. I guess I'm wondering about the kind of like undertow it can also create for you in particular. [00:25:13]

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm just thinking the opposite way. Any time I've been like excited or, I don't know, that's what's made me feel like, I've lost more being excited than being pessimistic

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So.

THERAPIST: What are you thinking of?

CLIENT: Mostly friendships, or relationships, or I don't know. [00:25:49] (pause) I still, I mean I'm excited about med school, but I mean, once I got further into it, I became pessimistic I don't know. I, again the situation in general, is something (pause) I don't know if I'm just extra sensitive, I can shut down easily. But I feel like a lot of the time, if I'm excited about like a party or seeing someone or something, it's like quickly trumped by like my disappointment or, (mumbles).

THERAPIST: I see. Like you are up for something or you're peaked about it, and then you're, to the point it doesn't go the way you want. And then you are -

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I don't know. Yeah like the whole, I've got expectations or something, but I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well let's talk about why you're thinking that. Are there times when you are thinking like, being excited about going to a party and then can -

CLIENT: I think like, like seeing Vicki, there's always an expectation it will go well, and like most of the time they don't. Or, we're like, I don't know what to think, and then something turns it like, and argument, and I don't know. Or, I don't know. The thing with Sascha being excited to, or not excited but like, I don't know, I need something to do and like my, then just kind of what the fuck is going on? I don't know, kind of like that [00:27:57]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Personality, or not knowing.

THERAPIST: Well, I can see how you felt down and also really frustrated.

CLIENT: Right. (pause) So. (pause) I don't know. I think, it's like I remember when I used to dread to go to softball games, (inaudible mumbling) and in the end it wasn't that bad. You know what I mean? Like, I guess I just got used to that feeling. It's better to feel that way or

THERAPIST: Like the (inaudible) to start low.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, I mean I can see how it's undermining me. And, like, I don't know. I know there I used to think, like the other day I was at work, my boss he was like asking me for a very specific like, I want you to look at this in here, I want you to look at this and I'm like, let's see, let's ask the bigger question like how does this work, like biologically or something. So I can get excited because I'm going to glean you out or whatever. And, I'm you know, going to do this well or something. But then I get to the computer and, it's kind of like, and I'm not the best at like computer science and coding, so I get stuck a lot. Or, like, I can understand what his intent is, I can understand what he's asking me like, and I understand what the outcome is, but I don't know how to do it. Like specifically with the, like for answering a question like, like what is the signature for a CD four pack like when we activate it with this diagram or something. [00:30:15] And I understand like, why that's important, like we need to know what is the genes, or something like that. I don't know how to actually like go to the data and find that. And, if I don't have them as quickly then they are disappointed. Like, I usually like work it out, like fast. But with better computer science people are like, people who can like figure out how to decipher this. But in the end it's usually like, I'll ask Ray and he's like, oh no, no, this is all wrong, you forgot to do this. But I mean it's fine. He doesn't like blame me, just kind of like, alright, let's do this. [00:30:50]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But this is like a main thing, like I get so, where I think like I understand it. Like I do understand it, but I don't know how to like, actually like, do it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. like you have like a (inaudible) discuss to, to like enter all the data. Like you understand the significance of what you are doing and you are actually excited about

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Doing it, and it sounds like, you also, sort of, sort of, when you can get it working, you feel pretty good about doing it, the statistical aspect of it. Actually going into the data, it's just that, I guess I feel a little like, (inaudible) from your side. It's just that you're trying to solve hard problems. [00:31:43]

CLIENT: Right. And I don't, I don't do it enough. Like I go through waves, like right now I am making a wave of not doing, I should be doing both, but at least be doing the computer science, but then I'll go a couple of months where I don't do it, and I forget a lot of it. [00:32:01]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I guess the language or whatever. (pause) But anyway,

THERAPIST: Have you had a lot of, a lot of, a few important times in life where there is usually excitement, and it's followed by pessimism.

CLIENT: Right. Yeah, but I guess that's normal. I don't know if it's like, things came like, easy for me before, but now it's a little bit harder, so I get frustrated but. I don't know. [00:33:20] But I feel like, yeah the biggest disappointment I get are like people. (pause from [00:33:25] to [00:33:55]

THERAPIST: I guess what I'm thinking is, in a way this seems quite excpectable, and in a way not. Like, you know, on one side, sure like, having hesitations, having disappointed, having you know, hitches of various sorts to merge and get in the way. But I don't know, as best I can tell, this happens to a lot of people in life.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's not anything unusual or surprising about that. But, there's something about the, sort of the, the significance it has for you. Or the centrality it takes on that seems important. And like maybe it has something more to do with you. I'm not even saying like, you have more disappointments than most people. Oh no. It's not that way. But, there's something about an experience that seems, important. I mean, (pause) I mean I guess, I can imagine somebody experiencing the situation you are describing at work, in a very different way. Like maybe starting out being not, maybe not starting out being as excited. And that they sort of know that they likely to face a difficult problem with the coding. [00:35:55] At some point. Or somebody else, like experiencing the difficulty with coding as, you know, the issue is, that they know they are going to have to ask somebody else, and they are really anxious about it. So the trouble isn't, Oh my gosh, I'm disappointed I can't just make this happen. But, Oh my gosh, this means I'm get to ask somebody for help, and I'm you know, that worries me for some reason. Or, somebody else is just like, What a wonderful chance for me to work, I do work on it. You know, whatever.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: I think it's kind of like, I don't think there's a wrong way, but there's, it seems to be like, something

CLIENT: Are you saying that I quickly transmit disappointment, or something like [00:36:51]

THERAPIST: I don't know, like maybe its the whole package. Like maybe its a combination of the kind of, if I made an optimism, followed by disappointment. I'm not really sure, what it is. But I guess I, and maybe I'm not giving enough credit to the particulars. But it seems there is something a little more shockish about the whole, sort of, aspect of your work that you expect this particular way involving excitement, enthusiasm at first and then frustration, disappointment.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Is that all making sense?

CLIENT: Yeah. Do you want me to describe more like why I'm disappointed or

THERAPIST: Well no, unless that's what comes to mind.

CLIENT: I think it's just like, it's not that I like get anxious that I have to ask other people, it's more

(crosstalking)

CLIENT: I don't know, I'm just kind of disappointed that I don't like, understand, or like, maybe I did rush into and I should think about it more about what I need to do to kind of like work out a plan and maybe talk to someone first before like, jumping in there and being like, I'm so confused. [00:38:10]

THERAPIST: You are, kind of stuck and don't know what to do?

CLIENT: Right. Or I get, and like, I was like, you get an idea in your head, and like, okay, I need to find you know, genes that correlate with this, and blah, blah, blah. I don't know, there's so many things that like, in statistics and even biology, like Ray is always like, oh we need to take out like these genes first, and you need to, you know, there are things I don't think of. Which is fine. I mean I've definitely gotten better at it. [00:38:43]

THERAPIST: Right. My impression of it is, this is some kind of deep kind of problem to have. And you know, someone who is a post-doc, and has spent thousands more hours on this has probably better at it because, like it, there is a fair amount of skill and experience involved. And like, and it is good to be learning some of that and to be more competitive.

CLIENT: Right, and I think it is also part of, computer science. Like everything has to be, you know, a certain format, you know, like, even like, I don't know. So like half the trouble is getting everything in the right format before I even start actually computing.

THERAPIST: You mean like a data bank program?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, I don't know. And, so we have like a cloud max room. And we have two (inaudible) I don't know, it's like those guys are always like flying over (laughter) Shit like that.

THERAPIST: (laughter) How the (inaudible) guys have.

CLIENT: Yeah, its' just something about work, some ridiculous thing. I don't know, it's just -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And how can people, like, and so I think that's it, so, I feel better asking, like I don't feel embarrassed to ask one of them for the help I need. One of them

(crosstalking) [00:40:05]

CLIENT: Because I guess, I never learned it in school, so I don't know what to look for. I don't know what the checklist is or whatever.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Or, but. I don' t know. I guess we got off topic, but I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well kind of like the place where you get stuck there, sometimes it is frustrating is, when it is working, and you are sitting there, not like you are worried about asking them, but you are thinking, okay is it best to ask them now or should I try to think a little more with the problem myself, so that I -

CLIENT: I think it's just more of a disappointment that, that I, that I don't code more. Because I do have the opportunity. A lot of the times I kind of just kind of waitful, when I get specifically asked a question like the data is always there for me to look at. I don't know. Maybe I don't really have the mind for computer science. Like, which is fine, I think I just get disappointed. And, in myself, that I'm not better at it. I mean I can rationalize it to death, like, I never learned this, or whatever. [00:41:26]

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound entirely like a rationalization.

CLIENT: Like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Okay. It's like you know I always want to feel crummy about myself and maybe I just don't have the mind for this. In a way that's okay. And I can rationalize I mean, I guess when you refer it to as a rationalization, I usually think of a rationalization as something that is like a pretty flimsy excuse. Which I (inaudible) how that is to you. But I'm not so sure it's such a flimsy excuse. (chuckle) I mean.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Am I, did I explain what I meant?

CLIENT: Right. [00:42:09] I think it's, though, the disappointment, is kind of similar to, like when I get something to talk about. Or something like that. like in the meeting I'm excited and kind of have like a clear path, and then when I get into it I kind of ooze like, steam or lose like, what the hell am I doing. And then I'm just kind of deflated or something.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And, I think it basically went to that.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And then optimum, or like op-timing, or like when I do get the answer to, you know, it's just like, the answer is kind of like, lame.

(laughter)

CLIENT: It's like a list of genes, like the expression rides, it's not like, this is the meaning of life. So, I always forget. Or maybe I'll put out our biggest plot, but I still don't really understand. Like Ray can see like a plot, and like pull meaning out of it. And I'm like

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: And it's not, I'm like, I can't really grasp. (chuckle) This different kind of, I don't know. But, and like he'll send one of these plots to me and he's like, So what do you think this means? And then I'll think about and give him an answer, and he'll be like No that's wrong.

(laughter)

CLIENT: I don't know. But, I don't know. It's fine.

THERAPIST: Well it is difficult.

(laughter)

THERAPIST: It kind of sucks. I know it's not unusual, but it's not really much fun.

CLIENT: I think it's a very And also there's like, very few people in our lab doing biochromatics. Like, only a few of us suffer this like, you are doing something, but you don't know what you are doing. Or you don't know the output is. So, yeah. I used to, I used to ask Mike, who's the other of course he's better at it, but we suffer the same, like

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's like, what does this graph mean, and Ray will ask him, So what do you think? It's like a teaching screen.

THERAPIST: So you're mad at Ray then.

CLIENT: So, yeah. (chuckle)

THERAPIST: Yeah, we need to stop, for now.

CLIENT: Okay. (inaudible due to background noise)

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: Sure.

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