TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hello.

CLIENT: Hi. I've got a bunch of interpersonal situations where I'm questioning how much bullshit am I going to tolerate? Where is the risk-to-rewards trade-off? Where is the inflection point in that curve? When do I call it off and say, "It's not worth it?" This happened with my friend, Brian, who I knew in high school and I told you all about that, that horrible story. By the time I was ready to just say, "Our friendship is done," there had been close to a year's worth of painful processing conversations and arguments and sniping at each other and making up and getting angry again and it's just (sigh)... [00:01:03] The situations I'm facing now are all different from each other and from the situation with Brian, but they all have this theme running through them of when do I decide enough is enough? And I don't know how to answer that question in general or in any of these specific cases. It's just very, very upsetting to me, so I don't know. Would it be useful to talk about the specifics?

THERAPIST: Could be.

CLIENT: You're not going to tell me what to do even if I do get into specifics, are you? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: No, probably not. (both laugh) I'll just put that right out there.

CLIENT: Okay. I didn't think so, but it was worth asking. [00:01:53]

THERAPIST: In extreme cases like abuse or real dramatic self-deception I would speak up, you know? But I sort of suspect that's not what you're talking about. No, the way it could help would be talking about it, reflecting on it, talking to you, what have I identified. If I think that you have a feeling you weren't clear about or ways that you were disengaged from certain aspects of what was going on, even if it's not in a huge way. I sort of have a hunch that, not knowing anything about what's going on (client laughs), that it's your preference, but you're wanting something that feels more objective and legitimate. [00:03:29]

CLIENT: Yep. I think that's fair.

THERAPIST: That is a question more like "do you feel like ice cream today and do you want chocolate or strawberry?" rather than something that has a kind of objective plea that you need answered. [00:03:58]

CLIENT: So anyway, the situation at first is mine and Dave's best friends in the whole world, Lucas and Gwen, who we've been friends with for six years. We do holidays together and have been there for each other through intense personal crises (sighs). I absolutely know that Lucas and Gwen love us and would be there for us no matter what, but Lucas says kind of racist shit pretty often and I'm tired of calling him on it and I'm tired of biting my tongue and letting it slide and I don't know what to do (sighs) the most recent one was Thanksgiving. It was us and Lucas and Gwen and another couple we know, Yvonne (sp?) and Christopher. Yvonne is a black woman, a Haitian immigrant who was a grad student studying history of continental Europe and she dropped out, in large part because her department was racist. The whole field was racist. She was treated remarkably badly at conferences. No one took her work seriously. It was just... [00:05:13]

THERAPIST: That's horrible.

CLIENT: It was. And then Yvonne's husband, Christopher, also dropped out of grad school for unrelated reasons. He's a computer scientist and he... I don't even want to get into his story. But he dropped out of grad school. I dropped out of grad school, and all three of us are bitter in different ways from our individual experiences. Yvonne and Christopher didn't know this but Gwen is applying to Grad School. She wants to study Philosophy and get her PhD in Philosophy which I don't understand, but more power to her. Yvonne and Christopher didn't know this and I don't remember what got Yvonne started, but something set her off on talking about how grad school is a terrible experience and people should absolutely never go to grad school and it was a horrible idea. [00:06:07] It was pretty clear that she had some past trauma and bitterness. So, anyway, Yvonne and Christopher left because they had to go home and put their kid to bed. I think she's three. Lucas and Gwen stayed for another couple of hours and at one point Gwen was like, Wow, your friend, Yvonne, is really bitter about grad school." I was like, "She has good reason to be." I gave them the thumbnail summary about how grad school turned out for her.

THERAPIST: How long was she in it?

CLIENT: Like five and a half years.

THERAPIST: Ooh.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then Lucas, whose degree is in history and is trained as a historian, although he works as a town administrator now.

THERAPIST: So he got his degree?

CLIENT: Yes. He has a Masters. He was like, "You know it's her own fault because, at this point, if something in medieval Europe hasn't been studied, it's not worth studying." I was like, "Oh? I'm pretty sure that things that have to do with race in medieval Europe haven't been studied because the field has been dominated by white people who thought race wasn't relevant." [00:07:19] He was like, "No, no, no. It's been studied." I was like, "Actually, no it hasn't." He was like, "Well, there's no support for the narrative in the primary sources." I was like, "Oh, really? So all of those moors who colonized Spain and had a great influence on continental Europe that's not in the primary?" And it was just this really ugly argument that eventually my Dave and Gwen were like, "Why don't we [...]." (inaudible whispered voice at 00:07:45) This isn't the first time. Lucas means well and he tries to be an ally. He's a better ally than a whole lot of white people, but there are still these conversations that just set my teeth on edge where he's just blinded by growing up as a white boy in the Midwest, the son of a wealthy businessman; and I don't know how to communicate across that gap. It's so frustrating and so upsetting. (sighs) (pause) [00:08:44]

THERAPIST: How is it upsetting? I'm not asking that because I can't imagine why it's upsetting, but just because it would upset different people differently.

CLIENT: (pause) It's upsetting because (pause) when white friends of mine say, "Oh, racism doesn't exist," or, "Race isn't an issue," the logical extension of that is that when I'm talking about race, clearly I'm lying.

THERAPIST: "I" being "you?"

CLIENT: Yes. So if Lucas asserts "Q" and I assert not "Q," one of us is wrong. And when not "Q" is my experience of the world, if I'm wrong, the only way I can be wrong is if I'm lying about my experience or delusional and that's (sigh) why it's upsetting. [00:10:17]

THERAPIST: Which also recapitulates the problem in the first place.

CLIENT: Right. And in this case it was one step removed from me because it was Yvonne who experienced the racism in the academy and not me. Possibly I'm overly identifying with Yvonne in this but... (pause) Another example of this kind of thing is about six months ago I was out for lunch with Dave and Lucas and a black woman from our church named Geraldine. Geraldine and I are the chaplains of our church's anti-racism group. Dave and Lucas, by Edsont of being close to me have heard a pretty good deal of how that whole initiative is going, so they asked me and Geraldine, "So, are you prepared for the next meeting? What are you going to do?" Geraldine and I started bouncing around ideas of how we were going to handle the particular subject matter of the next meeting and how we were going to design the prayers to work around that. [00:11:38] I can't remember what it was Geraldine said, but Lucas interrupted her and reached across the table, put his hand on top of hers and in old-school gentleman style of like "there, there, honey" and said, "The thing you have to understand about white people is we're terrified of talking about race." I was like, "That was really condescending." You can't exist in this person of color and not understand that white people are scared shitless of talking about race, especially not if you're actively, consciously thinking about racial dynamics and power and privilege. Once you start getting into critical race theory, it's blindingly obvious that white people are scared to talk about race for any number of reasons. I was just... (sigh) [00:12:38]

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's really patronizing.

CLIENT: Yeah. And we get into [intense] (ph?) person's impact because it felt really patronizing and it pissed me off and it pissed Geraldine off. It made Geraldine feel really belittled because she's new to the church and didn't know Lucas as well as I did, so she really took it as "this white dude is getting all up in my business." But I know that Lucas's intent was to offer encouragement and support like "this might seem really hard to you and this is a really tough problem that you're dealing with," you know? God it's just so... (pause) [00:13:54]

THERAPIST: I guess I'm hearing it as being a comment along the lines of like "well, you know, there is racism out there." Sort of like that, obvious and inappropriate. So did you [have a lot of time?] (ph?)

CLIENT: Yeah. I just kind of looked at him and raised my eyebrows. I was like, "Strike me down with a feather. I never would have guessed that." I might have even pulled out the southern accent for that. I don't remember now. He turned red and was like, "Oh, good point," and that was the end of it. (sighs) [00:15:04]

THERAPIST: My impression is that it feels like it's pretty unworkable with him.

CLIENT: I don't know. He's better than he used to be. There's been progress and we have so much history together and have been emotionally intimate, all four of us together. I don't think I want to end the relationship over this, but it's just tough and frustrating and yeah.

THERAPIST: It's incredibly painful.

CLIENT: Yep. But then I look at what relationships aren't occasionally painful and how much am I willing to compromise? (pause) The other situation that happened over Thanksgiving weekend is both easier and difficult, in that I've know the person for a dramatically shorter amount of time. On the other hand, past feelings are involved and that always clouds my judgment. [00:16:38]

THERAPIST: I'm sorry. What feelings?

CLIENT: Past feelings.

THERAPIST: Past feelings? I've not heard that expression before. (both laugh)

CLIENT: It's one that a lot of my friends use. It means the obvious.

THERAPIST: I like it. I just hadn't heard it. (chuckles)

CLIENT: There is this guy, Edson, who I've been seeing for maybe a month and a half, if that. He is smart and interesting and funny and sassy and sexy. The chemistry is amazing and we have a good time together.

THERAPIST: That's great. So far.

CLIENT: So far. But we keep pushing each other's buttons hard around issues of gender and privilege and power. (chuckles) We had this pretty terrible conversation on Saturday afternoon where God, where do I start with this? "He was an idiot," is what I want to say, (both laugh) but I don't think that provides you any useful insight.

THERAPIST: It says something about how you feel about what happened.

CLIENT: This trend has been really obvious and irritating to me of people of privilege playing dress-up and then writing books or articles or giving speeches about "oh, no. Discrimination exists and it's so terrible. I never knew." Like a white Christian woman wearing the job for six hours and then getting 15 column inches of space in the fucking New Yorker, talking about, "Did you know people are prejudiced against Muslims in this country?" Just listen to this woman who wears her job all day, every day their entire lives, you would... it doesn't... Or there was the anti-gay, Christian evangelical, straight dude who tried to run an ex-gay ministry and tried to convert gay people into being straight, who decided he was going to pretend to be gay for a year so that he could learn how better to convert gay people. The first time he went to a gay bar he got hit on and he punched the guy in the mouth. Then he recruited a guy off Craig's List this is how he described him: "A hulking, black bear" to pretend to be his boyfriend so that he could go into the gay scene and pretend to be gay without actually getting hit on. He had this big, black man to protect him. He got a fucking book deal and the New York Times and the Guardian, all these papers are writing about how this is a transformative experience for him, realizing that it really hurts when your church kicks you out for being gay. [00:19:28]

I just find this whole thing enraging. There were four examples that we talked about. So those two and then the phenomenon of women social scientists who study sexism in the workplace or in academia are derided and told they can't be objective about their research, but male social scientists who do the exact same fucking things, the exact same fucking methodology, get paid attention to at least in terms of lip service, although... [00:20:01]

THERAPIST: Is anybody in academia objective about their research? Nobody in academia is objective. That isn't even the point.

CLIENT: I wasn't objective about my research and I was studying noise in computer chips, for God's sake. (sighs)

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:20:15) I think I see your point.

CLIENT: The most recent incident was this guy, an undergrad, who, for a project in his interim (ph?) sociology class, wore women's clothes for three days and realized, "Hey. Women get cat-called and people who are gender non-conformant get beat up in the bathroom. This kind of sucks." Well, duh. Women and gender non-conformant people have been saying that for years.

THERAPIST: Does that guy write for something?

CLIENT: No, he posted his final report on his blog and it just got re-Tweeted all over and re-posted.

THERAPIST: He's like some under-grad? [00:20:55]

CLIENT: Yeah. The problem isn't with him or his project, per se, it's the whole system of...

THERAPIST: Yes. I see. It's like the receptivity to people who...

CLIENT: Yes. The tens of thousands of people who are like, "Dude. Look at what this straight-sexed, white dude had to say about wearing a skirt," instead of... (sighs) But, anyway, Edson is gender-queer and wears skirts all the time. He took this incredibly personally as if I was saying that men shouldn't wear skirts.

THERAPIST: Sorry. He took what?

CLIENT: My complaint about this article.

THERAPIST: Ah. Got you.

CLIENT: Because we were talking about stuff and I was like, "Have you seen this article? It makes me so angry." I was kind of upset about it and expecting Edson to agree with me.

THERAPIST: Like it was along what you just described. [00:21:56]

CLIENT: Yeah. And he just flew off the handle and it turned into this whole long, ugly conversation and I don't know. I think I got increasingly more angry and frustrated and so did Edson. It ended with him saying, "I don't think you understand that for people who don't have privilege like men, there is this ‘holy crap' moment; and your experience of being discriminated against is totally foreign to us. And, until I started wearing skirts, I had no idea how bad cat-calling was. I think you're de-valuing that experience of this real understanding of what discrimination is like." (sighs) I don't know. Maybe this just makes me really mean, but I kind of don't give a fuck if men or straight people or white people ever have that "light bulb moment" of this real understanding. I care that they vote for non-discrimination legislation and not harass me at work. [00:23:13] I don't really care about the personal grip of people who have power and privilege over me. And maybe I should. Maybe I'd be a better person or a better Christian or a better whatever if I did, but I don't. And I don't feel bad about that either. Clearly, this is a huge button-pusher for Edson, but I was like, "You know, it's not that I don't believe that you have an insightful moment, it's that I don't care." (chuckles) [00:23:43]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I follow if these folks who'd written these articles had had those moments for themselves and shut up about it or old, similarly privileged friends or whatever, that would be one thing and you might not care that they knew more, but they wouldn't be pissing you off, I think except then they couldn't just write about it but, whatever. The main thing, as I understand it, is that lots of other people, including media people, act as though this is revelatory.

CLIENT: Right. And then the public narrative gets centered around the person with privilege and their revelation instead of around the person without privilege or around the dynamic of discrimination. I'm sure there are plenty of other possible [...] (ph?) where it's the center of the narrative, but the three obvious ones are the person of privilege, the person without privilege, and the interaction between them.

THERAPIST: Yes. I think I follow that.

CLIENT: And having the narrative be all around the revelation and feelings of the person of privilege, it reinforces the whole system of oppression; and, frankly, is boring and tedious to me because I'm kind of sick of hearing the same story about this light-bulb moment like shut the fuck up. The story is old. It's not interesting any more. It was interesting maybe the first thousand times I heard it, but... [00:25:16]

THERAPIST: Enough. (both chuckle)

CLIENT: But since we're up to a million and a thousand now, I wouldn't know and I don't care. We tried talking about this again Sunday afternoon. The conversation started out with we were both really tired when we talked on Saturday night, and it was probably a bad idea to have that discussion then. Maybe we should revisit it some other time. All well and good. We both apologized for getting emotional. I don't know why I apologized for being emotional, but I did, and so did he.

THERAPIST: [...] (inaudible at 00:26:00) as well?

CLIENT: Yes. Then he said, "So the thing that concerns me is that you appear to have a self-caretaking impairment," those are his exact words "around issues of privilege and I don't know if I can deal with that because it's really arduous to say, ‘These are your issues and have nothing to do with me.'" Then he went on to say, "Though you haven't said anything I would classify as outright crazy, it's fairly clear that I push your buttons around issues I'm passionate about. Maybe this is going to explode in drama, and I don't want to have anything to do with this. On the other hand, 99 percent of the time you're smart and fun and sassy and sexy and I think I need to talk to my therapist about you," which is fine. He should talk to his therapist about me because, clearly, that's what I'm doing. It's a good idea, right? But I didn't need him to space it with me. [00:27:07]

THERAPIST: (laughs) I understand.

CLIENT: But this whole implying that because I'm passionate about this issue, I have some emotional impairment around it?

THERAPIST: I wasn't sure what that referred to, to tell you the truth. Maybe it was clear to you. I didn't think it was. I didn't understand when he said you had a "self-care impairment?"

CLIENT: "Self-caretaking" all hyphenated "impairment".

THERAPIST: What does that mean? [00:27:36]

CLIENT: I'm not entirely sure. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's a self-caretaking impairment around issues of...?

CLIENT: Privilege.

THERAPIST: On the face of it, it sounds like he's saying you don't take care of yourself well.

CLIENT: Right. Whereas I think talking about the things that are important to me and standing my ground is an excellent example of self-care.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So, I don't know. Everything he said about me, I could have said the same thing about him, but you know. "Well, you haven't said anything 100 percent crazy, there are no red flags, but yellow flags are going up a little bit in places." Ninety-nine percent of the time he is smart and funny and interesting and sexy and sassy, but sometimes it's just like... [00:28:38]

THERAPIST: I guess this iteration of the conversation doesn't sound like the problem is to do with power and privilege, per se. It's more like he's kind of a little autocratic in asserting his point of view and presuming that it has more validity than yours (chuckles). [And maybe being pejorative and pathologizing, but that part of the understanding isn't so much to do with... ] (ph?)

CLIENT: Right. In the six weeks I've known him, this is the second ridiculous hours-long argument we've had over "gender politics", for lack of a better catch-all term. I don't know. On the one hand, 90 percent of the time he is smart and funny and amazing and I really like him. On the other hand, the extent of my feelings towards him at this moment are he makes me hot and he's fun to talk to and it's a lot easier to say, "I don't need this in my life" than if we keep seeing each other for another three months and more, deeper emotions develop. I don't know. I don't know if it's worth the risk of continuing to see him. I could draw analogies. Like when Dave and I were first dating he said stupid shit about gender all the time and he has grown and developed as a human being since then. (chuckles) He still says things that piss me off occasionally, not with any frequency. I think the last real knock-'em-down, drag-'em-out argument we had was more than a year ago about there was this episode of The Boondocks where we were watching where the lawyer-guy, the father of the bi-racial girl, starts having nightmares about going to prison and prison rape. I made this offhand comment that, "Maybe if men lived with this visceral fear of being raped as much as women do, the world would be a better place and there would be less sexual violence." Dave was like, "That's bullshit. The actual chances of being raped by a stranger are really low and women shouldn't have fear walking home alone at night because the odds of being raped walking home from the bus stop are much lower than date rape. It's totally irrational to fear a stranger-rape." I was like, "Excuse me? What the fuck are you saying?" [00:31:50] (laughs) Anyway, that was more than a year ago. The point is, clearly I can have successful, loving, respectful relationships while still disagreeing about things that are deeply important to me.

THERAPIST: I guess you're sort of worried about the matter of degree.

CLIENT: Right. I don't have a good estimator right now for how much this relationship with Edson will be satisfying and fulfilling and happy; and I also don't have a good estimator for how frequently we are going to have really irritating arguments that make me want to push him through a window.

THERAPIST: Right. Is it possible you couldn't know yet?

CLIENT: Sure. (sighs) I mean I don't know yet. It does kind of shine a light on the end of the magical thinking of my hoping I could actually predict that at this point, six weeks into a relationship.

THERAPIST: Well this definitely hurts. I imagine that's part of it. I know you generally like to know things, more so than not knowing them, but... [00:33:26]

CLIENT: For a second I thought you were going to say, "More so than most people."

THERAPIST: No. (chuckling) Just more so than not knowing them, and (pause) also, like I said, especially having to do with such a horrible subject.

CLIENT: Right. I think the thing that pisses me off the most about it is not that we disagree about narratives around privilege and who has the right to speak, but the fact that in the follow-up conversation he implied that I was the one being overly-emotional when he was being equally and exactly as emotional as I was also the implication that being emotional is a bad thing. I don't know. I don't think getting emotional about things that are important is a bad thing. I don't think it's an unhealthy thing or a sign of impairment or whatever. This whole notion that we must be perfectly unemotional, rational automatons is (chuckles)(sighs) a penchant of male privilege and patriarchy in our society. [00:34:57] The fact that some emotions are gendered female in this class fight is bad and others aren't. There is this whole map of crap. It's possible Edson suffers from "but I'm a vegan" syndrome. You look like you haven't heard that phrase, either.

THERAPIST: I'm guessing what it means but, no, what does it mean?

CLIENT: It's this phenomenon of well-meaning, well-intentioned liberals who insist that they can't possibly be a bad person because "I'm a vegan" or "I'm a feminist" or because "I voted for Obama" or because "I marched in the civil rights movement" for people of that generation; and they think that their moral superiority in this one aspect of life insulates them from any charges of being racist or sexist or whatever in other areas of what-if/and. And I strongly suspect that Edson suffers from this. [00:36:01]

THERAPIST: I guess, as I understand it, it makes folks like that much harder to deal with. It's actually a sort of closed-mindedness?

CLIENT: Yep. My priest at church has the worst case of "but I'm a vegan" syndrome I've ever met and (whispering) I can't stand him. I don't know. To some extent, everyone who is politically liberal has some degree of this syndrome. I certainly do around issues of class and, as much as I try to be aware of it, I know I fuck up all the time. (sighs) So I don't want to be too judgmental because then I would just be contributing to the same problem, right? Like if I actually put together a litmus test of ideological purity for everything I cared about, I'd never get laid. Ever. I don't know where to draw the line or where are the risks worth it and where are they clearly not? I don't know. (pause) [00:37:47] At one point yesterday Edson asked me, "So a reality check doesn't all of this mean that the most likely outcome is four months from now our friends both telling us, ‘Why did you ever think that would work? It had all the signs this was a disaster from the beginning.'" And my response was, "So what? Not all relationships are meant to last. If that's what you care about, then call it off." (sighs) And yesterday when I was talking to him I was like, "But I'm not willing to call it off over this." After I slept on it and had it sitting in the back of my head all day when I'd dealt with a thousand-and-one petty problems at work, I'm reevaluating that. Maybe I do want to call it off. Maybe I don't want to deal with the effort. I don't know and I don't like not knowing. Being indecisive is incredibly upsetting for me. [00:38:58]

THERAPIST: What's it like?

CLIENT: (sighs) It feels weak to not be able to make up my mind. I think this is my dad's voice in my head, but a strong person should know what they want and should make up their mind and pursue what they want and not have second questions, second doubts what's the phrase I'm looking for?

THERAPIST: Second thoughts?

CLIENT: Second thoughts. Thank you. Not have second thoughts. Clearly that's a terrible attitude to have because that was George Bush's presidency and we all know how that turned out. (sighs) (pause) [00:40:08]

THERAPIST: It sounds like one aspect of this issue is a vulnerability all around and the other one, as I understand it, is race and gender stuff that has to do with social issues and, I guess sex, in general. But I guess, in addition to that stuff and entirely unrelated, you talk a lot about [...] (inaudible at 00:40:47) relationships and how to get more control over it. (chuckles) I don't mean to make light of it. I mean it's a real scary thing when it's out there. [00:41:11]

CLIENT: Yep. (pause) The third situation that just got dropped on me at 10:00 last night and I haven't really had time to think it through. The leader of our anti-racism team at church is stepping down because of racist bullshit in her job. She's a researcher and clinician at the Medical School and she hasn't had funding for her research for the better part of a year because of shenanigans and the Medical School bureaucracy, basically; and so she's not been getting paid for her work there. She's taken on a second job working in a clinic just doing rounds and seeing patients to pay the bills. She's stretched too thin and she can't also volunteer at the church. She's prioritizing her research over the church, which I totally understand. So she's stepping down and she called me and asked if I wanted to take her spot. On the one hand, I feel a little bit obligated to because we have the anti-racism team because of my agitating for years to get it. There are a very small number of people who I would trust to take the leadership in Jessica's place and most of them don't want it either. (chuckles) On the other hand, I don't want to work that closely with Julia. I don't want to be responsible for the day-to-day running of the group. I don't have the time. My life is just really busy and there are other things I want to prioritize over it nothing as worthy as studying heart disease, but things that are important to me. [00:43:19]

If I were to make the time for this, I would have to quit voice lessons and quit piano lessons and quit the choir; and I don't want to. On the back of this hand, I feel a little selfish for that because I'm not benefitting anyone by taking piano lessons except me, whereas this work would benefit everyone. (sighs) I don't know. I feel like being the chaplain has been enough of an emotional stressor that I don't know if I could take on more and not have a meltdown over it, especially if I have to give up the things that fall under the category of self-care because I actually am really good at providing myself with self-care. Sorry. I was snarking at Edson there, but he's not in the room. That was a little pointless. [00:44:12]

THERAPIST: I got it. I know what you meant.

CLIENT: The musical stuff, even though I'm not good at it and I'm a beginner and it's not benefitting anyone, is a source of emotional sustenance for me.

THERAPIST: It means quite a lot to you, I think. I mean, I know what you're saying.

CLIENT: Yep. It's a huge emotional outlet for me. I told Jessica I would think about it, but my answer would probably be "no." I need to confirm that to her and to our priest by the end of the week. I'm strongly leaning towards saying "no," but I'm feeling guilty and I don't want to feel guilty and I don't know how to make the guilt feelings go away. [00:45:09]

THERAPIST: We need to stop for now but we can certainly talk about where they come from, I don't mean historically, but kind of dynamically.

CLIENT: Are we all done?

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: All right. See you Thursday.

THERAPIST: Okay. Thursday.

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