TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Hi. So, stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(pause)

CLIENT: I really hate feeling so anxious about everything, and worrying that every decision I make is the wrong one, and how is it going to make me look. And I really hate second guessing everything I do, even the tiniest, most unconsequential decisions.

So for a recent relevant example, I have work that I need to get done in the print shop, and I really, really don't want to be alone in the print shop. And, like, I need to get over that eventually because, you know, I have to be able to be in there alone at some point, but for now, I decided I would just e-mail a couple of friends of mine and ask, you know, if anyone was free to come hang out with me. [00:01:24]

So I wrote this e-mail saying, you know, I've got some print shop work to do, and I'm kind of scared and anxious about being alone in the shop, that I really don't want to go into reasons, but, you know, there are reasons. And if any of you could, you know, come hang out with me while I work, that would be a great kindness, and then, you know, we would just discuss (ph) like what time I was going to be working, and what days, and, you know. And I mentioned that once I'm working, I don't really have the attention to have a conversation, so, you know, they could bring a laptop or a book, or something, and do their own thing, or something, just the physical proxiHarvardy. [00:02:02]

And, like, within a half an hour, two people responded and I had both my print shop days covered and that was great, but then I spent the rest of the afternoon worrying about, you know, did I send it to the right set of people? Like are these friends going to think I'm insane now? So, I mean, the somewhat questionable decision of e-mailing a woman named Lucy, who I only met, like, two months ago. She is engaged to be married to Ashley's roommate, so I met her the first time I was over at Ashley's (crosstalk), which was, you know, about two months ago.

I've known of her on the Internet. She edits a magazine that I subscribe to that I'm quite fond of reading, and we're in a couple of online communities and, like, know of each other, but never really interacted. But she seemed delighted to meet me the first time we met, and immediately, like, friended me on all social media ever. And we've been chatting online, and quite a bit since them and have, you know, hung out in person. It turns out that, so she's poly also, and her girlfriend is married to – her girlfriend is Tracey. Tracey is married to Matilda. Matilda is dating Lori, who has been my best friend since our freshmen year of college. [00:03:22]

THERAPIST: Oh, wow. That's funny.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm sorry. The relationship graphs get very complicated very quickly. But anyway –

THERAPIST: I don't know if I can remember all of that, but I will try. Yeah.

CLIENT: So Lori comes up to visit, like, her college friends as well as her girlfriend fairly frequently, and so I end up hanging out with Lori and Matilda, and sometimes with Tracey, quite a bit. And so Lucy had started inviting herself to come hang out with us, and, like, I don't know. And so when I posted about the whole thing with Tom and the print shop, and blah, a couple weeks ago, you know, she said, you know, "If there's anything I can do to help, you know, please let me know." [00:04:07]

So I did, and now I'm questioning, you know, whether that was, you know, overstepping the bounds of any acquaintanceship, and (pause) but I was kind of, you know, looking at the people I knew who I could ask to come hang out with me, and filtering on, you know, people I know from [my team] (ph) who just wouldn't understand, and would spend the whole time pressing me for details, and telling me that it was irrational for me to be afraid, which, you know, Dave did. Dave is – I don't know. That's a separate problem.

So I didn't want to approach any of those people, and I didn't want to approach anyone who was still close friends with Tom, and, you know, that left a very narrow pool of people to select from. And she did make the offer of, you know, anything I can do to help, and this seems like a fairly low stress, but I don't know. It still, after I hit send on the e-mail, I immediately regretted it and felt like it was, you know, presumptuous, and overstepping, and, you know, would make her not like me anymore. [00:05:30]

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) You don't seem as if you're waiting for me from – you're waiting, or kind of, confirmation one way or the other. [00:07:14]

CLIENT: Or even a, I am not going to give you confirmation response rather than feel like you're – I've been talking for a while, and maybe I should give you a chance to speak.

THERAPIST: Okay. (chuckle) (pause) Sort of felt more like you thought you might end up waiting to give me some space to talk than as though you weren't really worried and waiting for which way I was going to go?

CLIENT: Hm. Maybe a little bit, but not intentionally. (pause) [00:08:30]

THERAPIST: Hm. (pause) I'm not sure what to say about that part, the part about the giving me some space to say something. I'm going to say there wasn't much necessarily needing to hear from me as not wanting to take up all the air time. I don't think you felt that way.

CLIENT: Right. No.

THERAPIST: Worried about (pause) and going all over the time there was to talk, and things like that.

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:09:38]

THERAPIST: And I guess the – I didn't get the sense that there's a bit of worry there, though. In other words, it wasn't just like, eh, I thought it was going to be your turn, but more like that I wouldn't quite feel that I could speak up, or wouldn't find a way to get a word in edgewise, or something like that.

CLIENT: Yeah, a little bit. I've been told I tend to just trample over people when I'm talking, and I don't give anyone else time to speak. (pause) [00:11:10]

THERAPIST: I guess that's a little like your worry with Lucy, that you've overstepped.

CLIENT: Yeah, a little bit I guess. Maybe.

THERAPIST: It's the same worry that, like, you've asked too much or you (inaudible at 00:11:28). (pause) And the trouble is to say it.

CLIENT: Yeah, uh-huh. I got tired of waiting to see if Ashley would contact me first so I just e-mailed him and asked him if he was free this weekend. And so we had planned for (inaudible at 00:12:16) our own [fun thing] (ph) tonight, and I'm looking forward to it. But how can I address the underlying anxiety I have of, you know, I've been the one to ask for all of our dates so far, and I don't know how to bring that up without sounding like a nutjob. Possibly there is no way to bring it up with him without sounding like a nutjob because it's the sort of thing only a nutjob would worry about. I don't know. [00:12:45]

THERAPIST: As far as like – well, if by nutjob, you're referring to a human being, then I'm with you. (pause) One thing you seem to be doing all over the place is feeling like you have to be incredibly careful with people, and that if you're not, and maybe even if you are, people are not going to like you, they're going to think you're crazy. That we're all, kind of, really quite – not that they've been discriminating and reactive. [00:14:32]

CLIENT: Yep. Aren't people are kind of sort of just remaining unreactive, like, if you are to how people are.

THERAPIST: (pause) Some people in some ways that's sometimes yes. They do other things, too. And (pause) like, I mean, there could be 12 different places Ashley was coming from. He could think, "Oh, gosh, you know, I have (inaudible at 00:15:29) here. You know, she was always around when we started dating, kind of, routine. You know, if I don't hear from her, is it because she doesn't want to go out with me, doesn't want to see me. Oh, my god, I hope she e-mails me soon." [00:15:41]

CLIENT: (chuckle) Could be. I did ask him the last time I saw him in person if he would let me know when he was back in town, and he said he would. So there was an agreement there that (pause) –

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess the better example is that if you ask him about why he doesn't pay attention to you or why he didn't let you know that he was back in town. Painting it like you weren't crazy. Because there's no other possible explanation for what you're feeling now, or how that would make you feel, kind of, insecure to a point. (pause) [00:16:43]

Yeah, you just need to [offer it to him] (ph). But if I say that, people are going to think badly, I mean. (pause) I guess another thing that strikes me is there are all sort of situations where – and it's true, like with meeting Ashley, with the friends you reached out to, you know, there are people that, you know, friends that you feel close to or connected to, or and certainly good about, and – [00:19:09]

CLIENT: And then my brain says, "You can't have that. You can't feel good," yeah. Like, this explains about other, you know, not just with Ashley, like, repeated pattern with me, but it's a little bit insulting for me to think that, you know, I'm just forcing people to go on dates with me, to bring Cricket for support when I'm the one that, you know, everyone I date is a delicate flower who couldn't possibly say no, or, you know, establish their own boundaries, or just walk away if they weren't interested. You have a point. [00:20:09]

THERAPIST: Yes, yes. Although at the same time, your tone and the way you frame it, sort of, suggests that this is yet another thing you're doing socially wrong.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, that sort of thing you're doing all wrong. Or another way that – you poison things with people. You can't trust it or something, kind of, more solid there. And (pause) I have a hard time saying it, but I mean that in the sense that, you know, those are things you, sort of, expect or always imagine are the case that aren't necessarily are, and it's unfortunate of you to anticipate. And unfortunately, I guess, the (pause) – [00:21:57]

I guess I really didn't think that you'd feel, sort of, sad and maybe despairing in general, and also about me, in a way like, oh, my god, I have all these sexual faults and flaws, and, you know, here I'm sitting with Brian. Boy, he probably really hates having to deal with me over this kind of stuff, unless you don't even worry about it very much, something like that. Although maybe I'm, you know, (inaudible at 00:24:05).

CLIENT: I would say, you know, is bored more than doesn't like me.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But yeah, mostly. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, what's on your mind?

CLIENT: Well, I was thinking, you know, fundamentally, I just want to know that people who I like and respect want to have me around. And that's tough because there's no objective criteria or standard I could look at and say, yes, this person won't slap me around, and various thing. Like, you know, do they invite me to their parties or whatever, but, like, I don't know. Social relationships are so much more complicated than that, right? [00:26:08]

And I happened to be talking to one of Ashley's exes the night before last – Katie, who I think I've mentioned. Her and I have never gotten along. We've known each other since we were freshmen, and just oil and water pretty much. But Katie's also friends with Cricket, although not as close as I am to Cricket, and so we were talking about the situation with Cricket and Emmett, and just how horrible it is. In particular, Cricket needs help with her professional web site, which Emmett had been administering for her, and Cricket has zero technical skills at all, and of course, Katie and I went to Harvard. So we were trying to figure out a way to wrestle control of Cricket's web site from, like, Emmett. [00:27:03]

And anyway, conversation kind of wandered off topic once we solved that problem. We were talking about various things, and she mentioned that she had read my online blog, and she was really sorry about the whole – the stress I went through, and so –

THERAPIST: The stuff with Tom?

CLIENT: Yeah, and secondary trauma with Cricket, and I've been talking about – and the week with my family, which was just relentlessly miserable. I don't think I've gotten around to talking about it here because there's been so much other stuff going on since I've got back. I guess I'll talk about it eventually.

THERAPIST: You talked a little bit about (crosstalk). I'm sure there's –

CLIENT: Yeah. But anyway, so Katie and I were talking, and I didn't realize she was reading my blog. I thought that she was, you know, not interested and therefore not reading it. Like, so I said, you know, I'm sure you'd be able to figure this out, and I'd rather say it upfront rather than, you know, let it slip unexpectedly. But, you know, the person I've been referring to and not naming in my journal that I've been dating recently is Ashley, who is Katie's ex. They dated for, like, six years. A very long time. [00:28:14]

THERAPIST: And pretty seriously?

CLIENT: Yeah. So I've been really nervous about Katie would react because she has a tendency to melodramatize everything, but she was actually pretty chill about it. She's like, "That's pretty cool. I'm really happy for you," and so that got us started talking about Ashley, and Phil, and stuff that happened, like, ten years ago. But yeah, the thing Katie said that really gave me pause was, you know, in, you know, however many years they were dating, Ashley never told her he loves her. Like, apparently, that's just a thing he never says, or that to her knowledge, he didn't say it to anyone he dated. Over the span of about six years, so I don't know. That strikes me as really weird. I don't know how I feel about that. I think I would be really unhappy if someone I had been dating for six years was unable to say they love me. [00:29:30]

(pause)

THERAPIST: [Where are you now?] (ph). [00:32:34]

CLIENT: Just thinking I would, you know, I would really like to just, you know, ask Ashley explicitly, you know, where do I stand with you. Like, what is the status of this relationship? Is it even a relationship with a capital R? I don't know, but I can't think of any way to ask that without sounding completely neurotic, and potentially chasing him off by asking him the question. (pause) And I know that your job here isn't, you know, advice columnist, but – [00:34:39]

THERAPIST: I do that on the side. I see, but you're asking me for advice?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: About how to ask him without being too neurotic?

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: So one reason – that's a hard question to answer. I think you tend to feel like there's a big problem with anyone, with anything that you want from somebody that really matters, with anything you want that really matters to you from someone else. You know? So I say that in part because it would really help you out and could be really reassuring (pause) that you decide that only a complete neurotic dependent mess could completely care, because really you said would ever ask a question like that. [00:36:52]

And, you know, or only somebody who's just too demanding would ask her friend to stay with her, you know, at the probably small, enclosed space where she was recently assaulted. I don't know. (pause) So I guess that's probably why it's tough for me to (inaudible at 00:38:36).

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:38:39).

THERAPIST: Although there are still other things that I wanted – why do I necessarily know any better than you? That's another question. And also (pause) and that may be a way you're, kind of, setting up a little bit with me as well, and that you know that I'm probably not going to answer, and I think that, along with some other things today, like I know it's going to make you feel bad that I'm not being reassuring or answering your questions, and that you might sense that. [00:39:46]

I mean, you might be angry with me, but my sense is more like you're going to feel hurt about yourself, or in other words, like, oh, you know Brian wasn't going to answer, but you asked anyway because you're such an insecure [mumbles]. Like, you know the other option, or another option would be, like, that fucker didn't answer my question, you know, but I don't think that's the way you're going, at least today, with that. It's more like –

CLIENT: No. (crosstalk).

THERAPIST: It's more like the first one.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So we should stop right now. Okay.

CLIENT: You have a nice day.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:40:23]

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