TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

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[00:01:00]

CLIENT: I’m just, I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:01:08) nothing about (inaudible at 0:01:13). I guess I don’t know. But (inaudible at 00:01:29) between me, some of my friends and I don’t know. I guess I—I don’t know, go back and forth between, I don’t know. A feeling, I don’t know, like I don’t have—not that I really want it, but I feel like I don’t have much control or (inaudible at 00:01:59). And I feel like I’m, I don’t know, (inaudible at 00:02:04). [00:02:04] I don’t know. I don’t know.

I don’t know. The one waiting or the one . . . I don’t know. I don’t know. Or, yeah, and so, I don’t know. I was thinking—and I guess, yeah. I go between feeling, I don’t know, really disappointed and, I don’t know, my relationships and then I’m okay. But then, I don’t know. [00:03:00] Then I feel like I go long stretches where, I don’t know, I don’t really, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know, just I guess (inaudible at 00:03:23) friends (ph). I don’t really understand or, I don’t know. Yeah, I guess I’m just disappointed, (inaudible at 00:03:35). But I guess it’s hard for me to, I don’t know. I don’t know. I don’t know. I do not see it as me being weak or needy (ph) or, I don’t know. [00:04:02] But . . . I don’t know.

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CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:04:24)

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CLIENT: I don’t know. I guess I want, I don’t know, more . . . I don’t know. Not control, but I guess mostly (ph) dependence, I don’t know. I don’t know, on other people or, I don’t know. [00:05:00] (inaudible at 00:05:02)

THERAPIST: This has been making me think. Or is this the perhaps the other side of some of what you and I have been talking about the last few days? Where when you’re feeling overwhelmed or swamped or really anxious and you want somebody to step in or to tell you what to do or take charge.

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THERAPIST: I guess you also don’t want to feel dependent or passive. [00:06:00]

CLIENT: Right. And, I don’t know. I guess I don’t want, I don’t know. I don’t know, them to view me as just someone who’s, I don’t know. Not using them, but, I don’t know. Always needing something from them or they’re saying something (inaudible at 00:06:38). I don’t know. I don’t know, (inaudible at 00:06:47).

THERAPIST: Sorry, what was the last part? It was like you’re using them or?

CLIENT: Like I was needing them for rides or, I don’t know. [00:07:02] I don’t know, just (inaudible at 00:07:03) more enjoyment or something. I don’t know. I don’t know. But I guess, I don’t know. I feel like I’m missing something or . . . I don’t know. It’s . . .

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CLIENT: I don’t know. Everyone else seems—I know it’s crazy generalization, but, everyone else seems like, I don’t know. I don’t know. They have . . . I don’t know. [00:08:01] They have things going on in their life. And they have, I don’t know. They’re more in control of, I don’t know. What they want to do and, I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:08:22) and it’s more planned or—I don’t know. For me, I’m just like, I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:08:28) all over the place and (inaudible at 00:08:33) weak or, I don’t know. More easily. I don’t know. Persuaded or something (inaudible at 00:08:44), but . . .

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[00:09:00]

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CLIENT: I guess, yeah. I mean, mainly, it just seems like they’re less, I don’t know. Dependent or wanting involvement in relationship or something. I just go, I don’t know. I don’t know. [00:10:00] I don’t know. I guess it feels like a control thing. Or a power thing or something.

THERAPIST: I do expect—although I know this happens in your outside life. I mean, (inaudible at 00:10:30) you’re saying this also a bit to me. I mean, [and in particular] (ph) as I’ve been, I think, more active and . . . I’ve had more to say about some of what I think is going on for you. [00:11:01] Whether there’s a way that that’s reassuring, but that also maybe in part makes you—(inaudible at 00:11:09) some of the words that you’re describing, where . . . maybe I’ll feel that you’re needy or you worry about being dependent or that maybe . . . (inaudible at 00:11:32) or something or not wanting to be doing this or I’m (inaudible at 00:11:38) in charge and that feels shitty.

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[00:12:00]

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CLIENT: I mean, a little bit. But I don’t think it’s because, I—not since we’ve been more, I don’t know, vocal. But just, I don’t know. (crosstalk at 00:12:27)

THERAPIST: More like in general?

CLIENT: Yeah.

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CLIENT: I guess the, I don’t know. Yeah, I mean, I think the nature of, I don’t know. This relationship, I’m more, I don’t know. [00:13:00] I’m just I guess seeking advice and making myself vulnerable. Or, I don’t know. It’s a little bit different with, I don’t know, friends or anything. It’s not my intention, I guess, to do that but I feel like I do that.

THERAPIST: I see. So here, it’s part of the way our rules are set up, but (inaudible at 00:13:30) in a friendship, it’s (inaudible at 00:13:32). Not in a way—they’re supposed to be equal in some (inaudible at 00:13:40).

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[00:14:00]

CLIENT: I guess there’s, I don’t know. Yeah, the unsureness of—what I guess (inaudible at 00:14:18) just worried about what my friends feeling. I don’t know what’s going on. I don’t know if they’re annoyed because I’m being needy or, I don’t know. Just this unknown state. Yeah, it feels . . . I don’t know. I guess it’s similar to . . . yeah, I don’t know. I don’t know.

THERAPIST: As you can start turning over it.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: When you’re feeling too much in that lull, being the one who’s going along or taking more advice.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That’s what scares you about . . . maybe they don’t want to be (inaudible at 00:15:34) anymore or are feeling used or something like that. And it adds to your sense of worry.

CLIENT: Right. I mean, yeah. I guess . . . [00:16:00] (inaudible at 00:16:09), I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:16:18), I feel complicated or, I don’t know. I don’t know, guilted into saying things, but, I don’t know. [I don’t know] (ph).

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THERAPIST: I—go ahead. [00:17:00]

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THERAPIST: I wonder if when you’re in that anxious, caring state, there is . . . usually some way that you feel in danger with someone. I hear what you’re saying. And I know that . . . you don’t want friends to feel (ph) like they’re being used, or that things are one-sided or imbalanced. [00:18:05] It also seems to me, maybe, a feature of that state for you, that you get really worried about where you stand with other people. It may have [as much] (ph) to do with how bad you start feeling about yourself. As it does with . . .

CLIENT: Right.

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[00:19:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I’m worried, I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:19:11) what they think of me or how they view me. But I guess, I mean, and then, yeah. I don’t know, critical (inaudible at 00:19:33). I don’t know. I don’t want to be—or I wish I had more confidence or felt more, I don’t know, equal. Or not so reliant on . . . I don’t know, their approval or, I don’t know. [00:20:00]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think you go to a fantasy there that takes you out of that really considerable danger that you feel or that intensity of the vulnerability I think you feel in that moment from someone else. I hear, “Why don’t I?” And there, they have all the power.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And that’s understandably . . . a feeling you want no part of [chuckles] in that moment.

CLIENT: [I don’t know] (ph). [00:21:00]

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CLIENT: But (inaudible at 00:21:11), yeah. I guess, I don’t know, I feel like, I don’t know. I’m generalizing, but they . . . never feel that way. They’re, I don’t know. More in control or, I’m not. They don’t allow that or something. Or if they did, I’m, I don’t know, more, I don’t know. I don’t know. [00:22:01] And I’m really more (ph) responsive to help or to ease, I don’t know, any unsettling feelings. But I don’t know.

THERAPIST: How do you mean? Feeling they . . . they don’t feel that way, maybe partly as a result, they’re not really sensitive to when you do and how to be helpful?

CLIENT: Right.

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[00:23:00]

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THERAPIST: I think, in some way, for you, at that moment, they’re failing to help or be assuring or sensitive to how you’re feeling. Feels like a confirmation of the one-sidedness and fear and vulnerability that you experienced. In other words, they’re showing you that you should feel in danger. And they aren’t that connected. [00:24:00] Or, at least, I think that’s how you feel in that moment.

CLIENT: Right. I mean, and then, I don’t know. There’s no way of, I don’t know. Ever (ph) knowing or of, I guess, what they feel about me or I wouldn’t even trust what they’re saying (inaudible at 00:24:31) that they told me. I don’t know.

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THERAPIST: A cut that already (inaudible at 00:24:57). Really. [00:25:00] With what’s going on for you.

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CLIENT: I don’t know why. I trust them, but, I don’t know (inaudible at 00:25:26).

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THERAPIST: Maybe you just got really wary of other people in that state?

CLIENT: [I don’t know] (ph).

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[00:26:00]

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CLIENT: [I don’t know] (ph). Maybe it’s because, I don’t know. Because I feel vulnerable or weak or, I don’t know. I don’t know, but something like, yeah, they don’t care enough or—to tell me the truth or just, I don’t know. Doing or saying what’s easy or saying what’s cause the least amount of conflict or something. [00:27:04]

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CLIENT: I think it just feels like a need, like a, I don’t know. I know there’s a lot that’s false to it (ph). [00:28:00]

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THERAPIST: It reminds me of . . . corporate PR a little bit. Or even—do you know who Michael Moore is?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Like Michael. One of his early movies where he’s trying to talk to CEOs and people high up in and it’s car companies and then (inaudible at 00:28:43) corporations (ph) who—they have all this money and power and so forth. And clearly are going to just say whatever they need to say to keep themselves looking good so they can do whatever they want. [00:29:00]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It’s very clear they’re not to be trusted.

CLIENT: Right, or they don’t want to, I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:29:21), I don’t know, to get messy or [out of order] (ph).

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THERAPIST: They just want to keep things smooth.

CLIENT: Right.

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[00:30:00]

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CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:30:40) and . . .

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[00:31:00]

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CLIENT: I guess I (inaudible at 00:31:11) when I first went to Darmouth. Going there, everyone was, I don’t know, under this—they were turning it off, the impression of being smart or busy or taking a lot of classes or doing a lot. It was all—and they might be doing that, but it was often a fraud (ph) or something or—and now, I couldn’t feel that way. People do that with their lives. I don’t know, just, I don’t know.

I’m not or, I don’t know, or I go back and forth to trying or trying to give up or trying to, I don’t know. But I feel like everyone else was better or, I don’t know, more in control or . . . [00:32:08]

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THERAPIST: I feel like they have these sturdy façades from which they can react or through which they can interact with other people in the world. [00:33:05] And those are pretty well, but yours has some cracks in it or maybe not as sound in some way. And . . . that really puts you at a tremendous disadvantage.

CLIENT: Right.

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[00:34:00]

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CLIENT: I am.

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CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:34:30) if I don’t really—I don’t look to do or think about (inaudible at 00:34:42). So, I want to tell myself, I don’t know. I shouldn’t care and, I don’t know. (inaudible at 00:34:55) I guess not possible and I don’t know. [00:35:02]

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[00:36:00]

THERAPIST: In a way, you’re even saying you know that this is kind of a fantasy on your part. I get absolutely that this is what it feels like, but that, yeah, but in fact you know other people are more or less sturdy in different contexts about different things and so forth. But it seems to me other people feel so secure and powerful to you when you’re feeling so anxious, especially. And so . . . powerless, I guess, as a result. [00:37:03] Which I guess, as I think about it . . . in a way, I imagine, is the fantasy as well in that while it is true that you can’t think clearly and can’t necessarily express yourself clearly or well in that state . . .

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[00:38:00]

THERAPIST: I don’t know. It seems (inaudible at 00:38:08) at this point. I guess that what seems more central is . . . how devastating and how undermining the feelings are that you have when that happens.

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THERAPIST: I think the thought comes after that. The thought that . . . (inaudible at 00:38:56). [00:39:00]

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CLIENT: I don’t know.

THERAPIST: Because I’m saying I think that the way you feel in that moment about the other person vis-à-vis you, it made (ph) in part a . . .

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THERAPIST: . . . lousy feeling, but maybe somewhat protective thing that happens . . . after a moment where you felt really uncertain. [00:40:08] And very vulnerable to them. Or really indecisive.

CLIENT: I mean, I guess those are (crosstalk at 00:40:28) I just want to know the truth, but I just (inaudible at 00:40:36) what I think about when (inaudible at 00:40:39). I don’t know.

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[00:41:00]

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THERAPIST: Well, then, I guess to really know what they think about you in some way that you can believe. [00:42:04]

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:42:10)

THERAPIST: And to actually, in that sense, I think . . . I feel like there’s some more honest (inaudible at 00:42:30) going on.

CLIENT: Right.

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[00:43:00]

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[00:44:00]

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:44:07) about, I guess I imagine that (inaudible at 00:44:09) what’s so scary is the possibility that they will confirm what you worry to be true. That they find you needy and . . . feel things are one-sided or whatever. Right?

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[00:45:00]

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CLIENT: I don’t know. I guess, I don’t know. I’m just not happy with or okay with, I don’t know. [00:46:07] But to me, everything is okay or, I don’t know. It’s like surface-level things, like, I don’t know. I don’t know. I want—I don’t know, I want more. Or I want, I don’t know. But I guess, I don’t know. Either way, it definitely (ph), I don’t know. Get the truth, (inaudible at 00:46:45).

THERAPIST: So either way, you don’t really get the truth?

CLIENT: Right. Or, I don’t know. I’m either—am I making the right—making myself vulnerable or, I don’t know. [00:47:01] Wanting to, I don’t know, this dramatic willing to sacrifice my confidence or power (inaudible at 00:47:21).

THERAPIST: We should stop. Yeah.

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